SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:58 pm

Allegiant just extended their schedule. Looks like seasonal service to Destin/Fort Walton Beach is resuming on May 18. As expected, the only destination not returning is Phoenix/Mesa.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:06 pm

cle757 wrote:
Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.


CLE has to be one of UA's most expensive stations with the contractual obligations to pay for real estate and associated costs that could support a much larger operation. Adding flights makes sense in terms of improving station efficiency. It also makes me think that the traffic UA gave up with the closing of CLE (both O&D as well as flow) did not migrate to their other hubs in the expected numbers.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 pm

Well, Massey, sunk cost is sunk cost-- that's probably how UA should think about it. I'd guess what matters to UA is the incremental profitability they expect from the flights. You could probably argue that for any station-- whether it's expensive like CLE or super cheap like CLT, adding a few more flights costs very little against the costs of operating the station.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:01 am

cle757 wrote:
Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.


Great news if true. Is "next spring" spring 2018 or 2019?

Agree with massey, that with such large fixed costs, it will cost them nearly nothing to make more money in CLE.
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

SgtBarone wrote:
Allegiant just extended their schedule. Looks like seasonal service to Destin/Fort Walton Beach is resuming on May 18. As expected, the only destination not returning is Phoenix/Mesa.

Any idea when this route runs till?
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:19 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Agree with massey, that with such large fixed costs, it will cost them nearly nothing to make more money in CLE.


I doubt UA makes money in CLE these days, but they could certainly reduce their losses. Lately it appears they are trading frequencies on current routes in their hubs for new relatively higher-margin spokes. With more planes coming, UA may be looking harder for things to do with them. If so, it makes sense they are taking another look at CLE where they can add service at low marginal cost.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
SgtBarone wrote:
Allegiant just extended their schedule. Looks like seasonal service to Destin/Fort Walton Beach is resuming on May 18. As expected, the only destination not returning is Phoenix/Mesa.

Any idea when this route runs till?


So far it looks like VPS-CLE will run May 18-Aug 13th...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:45 am

greenair727 wrote:
Agree with massey, that with such large fixed costs, it will cost them nearly nothing to make more money in CLE.


Except there is a cost. Opportunity cost is a very real cost considered in capital budgeting. The aforementioned routes would tie up an aircraft for roughly 12 hours per day; UA would have to believe that operating one or more of those routes for that many hours is a better use of resources (planes and people) than adding or upgauging service elsewhere in the UA ecosystem. And that’s a huge hurdle — without any feed, it’s going to be difficult to attract enough people to e.g. CLE/SAN at acceptable yields.

For roughly two years, the same users have reported “hearing” that UA plans to expand/restore service. It hasn’t happened and it likely won’t — the market conditions aren’t here; CLE is somewhat of a battleground for LCC.

IMO, UA will shrink before it grows.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:04 pm

compensateme wrote:
IMO, UA will shrink before it grows.


Do you mean shrink in CLE or overall?

I think UA got in Wall Street's dog house for shrinking too much (post-merger going from First to Worst? Bethune must be laughing his a** off) and of course they must react to Wall Street. So they reacted by buying a bunch of planes - including their current search for some used 737s. The buying spree means they have to do something with them even if it means competing more with the ULCCs, as AA has concluded it must do. If that is the case, long-haul out of CLE becomes more attractive to them. What is non-stop number 12 going to get them in the LAX-EWR market that they can't get by upsizing aircraft #11?
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 pm

masseybrown wrote:
compensateme wrote:
IMO, UA will shrink before it grows.


Do you mean shrink in CLE or overall?

I think UA got in Wall Street's dog house for shrinking too much (post-merger going from First to Worst? Bethune must be laughing his a** off) and of course they must react to Wall Street. So they reacted by buying a bunch of planes - including their current search for some used 737s. The buying spree means they have to do something with them even if it means competing more with the ULCCs, as AA has concluded it must do. If that is the case, long-haul out of CLE becomes more attractive to them. What is non-stop number 12 going to get them in the LAX-EWR market that they can't get by upsizing aircraft #11?

I think he means shrink in CLE to only hubs, maybe destinations where they want to maintain competitive presence also like LGA, BOS...but they're practically there anyway. In my opinion a fixed cost is a fixed cost system wide and UA will naturally try to maximize return, but mindset is automatically limited to "key" markets and if a 737 can be used to defend turf in EWR it will do so, even if that plane can make more cash in CLE or any other non-hub market.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:01 pm

Joeman I second your point re: UA adding to EwR first if they’ve got extra aircraft.

In fact I think UA/CO showed that 300 times over when CLE had a hub.

Why would now be any different?
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:10 pm

^ Wait and see, I guess. I'd be as surprised as anybody if UA adds service at CLE, but poster trk1 has always been very well tuned into things at UA.

AA pretty rigorously follows the hubs-only school of thought, while DL is willing to try point-2-point routes when they think it makes sense. Meanwhile, UA's stock is down 25% in six months, while DL and AA are down only 9% from their peaks. UA is under the most pressure from financial analysts to improve their results. UA has never been known for originality, so which airline will they copy?
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:05 am

I’ve noticed some unusual gate usage at CLE the past several days. Spirit has been using A2 and A14 instead of its primary A6-maybe A6 is broken? Southwest has also been using B3 late nights as an overflow gate, apparently.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:21 pm

I realize B1 isn't ADA-compatible in it's present condition, but could that gate be made usable again by adding a jetway? Or is there some ramp issue that keeps it idle? WN and DL have filled up the rest of B and at some point adding flights will be difficult.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:13 pm

CLEguy wrote:
I’ve noticed some unusual gate usage at CLE the past several days. Spirit has been using A2 and A14 instead of its primary A6-maybe A6 is broken? Southwest has also been using B3 late nights as an overflow gate, apparently.


Southwest started using B3 when service to Milwaukee began earlier this month. I think it's used for the early morning departure and to RON an aircraft.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
swacle
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:54 pm

masseybrown wrote:
I realize B1 isn't ADA-compatible in it's present condition, but could that gate be made usable again by adding a jetway? Or is there some ramp issue that keeps it idle? WN and DL have filled up the rest of B and at some point adding flights will be difficult.


B1 has been converted into city offices. It was always a ground level gate and never had a jetbridge. It last saw use with United before they moved to C prior to the merger and was converted to offices either just before or just after they moved (I think before, but my not 100% sure).
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:36 am

Public workshops/comments for the CLE-Detroit Metroplex NextGen system draft environmental assessment are being held soon---Dec 5, 6, and 7 at different locations in Cleveland (and this week in Detroit).

Details on the report and meeting locations here: http://www.metroplexenvironmental.com/c ... ction.html.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:13 pm

CAK is closing their remote economy parking lot - declining traffic blamed.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/business/bre ... arking-lot
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:48 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CAK is closing their remote economy parking lot - declining traffic blamed.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/business/bre ... arking-lot


It seems when CLE traffic goes up, CAK traffic falls and vice versa. Southwest leaving is probably having a huge effect on parking demand. Passengers in October 2012 peaked at about 160k compared to 97k this year.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:35 pm

AC announced YUL>PIT. PIT beats CLE again, not just in football!
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:27 pm

^That's annoying. I'd like to see DL pick up this route. last time i flew YUL-CLE, I had to connect in PHL and AA cx'd the PHL-CLE portion and I ended up having to spend the night in Philly, making a 90-minute trip a 12-hour one. the lack of a direct flight certainly limits the amount of trips people from CLE will make to YUL....AC is losing out as CLE is a bigger market than PIT and the demand is diminished by the lack of direct service.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:31 pm

fun2fly wrote:
AC announced YUL>PIT. PIT beats CLE again, not just in football!


Wait to see if they paid for it. :smile:
 
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:05 pm

greenair727 wrote:
AC is losing out as CLE is a bigger market than PIT and the demand is diminished by the lack of direct service.

Air Canada is clearly run by f&@%*%# idiots. :sarcastic:


masseybrown wrote:
Wait to see if they paid for it. :smile:

They may indeed have but that's nothing new to CLE whom paid $100,000 per year more than PIT for its KEF service; not once but twice in practically the same day! Talk about the left hand not talking to the right hand in what must be one of the most unusual events in the history of air service development. Still much better than no service at all and I hope both flights do well :smile:
FLYi
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:07 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^That's annoying. I'd like to see DL pick up this route. last time i flew YUL-CLE, I had to connect in PHL and AA cx'd the PHL-CLE portion and I ended up having to spend the night in Philly, making a 90-minute trip a 12-hour one. the lack of a direct flight certainly limits the amount of trips people from CLE will make to YUL....AC is losing out as CLE is a bigger market than PIT and the demand is diminished by the lack of direct service.


With up to 3x ERJ's on CO/UA, there had to be some O&D. I know a good deal did connect at CLE as IAH did not have YUL initially. With AC's connections including TATL and O&D, it should have been easy. Unless PIT paid, as Massey points out. PIT 2 with the AS/AC announcements CLE 1 with FI and WOW as PIT has WOW. SEA and YUL would have been great additions.

On a side note, UA is regularly taking the 2x LAX off the schedule about 90 days from departure and going 1x daily. Are the LCC's are driving this? From a hub to former hub +O&D, it sure seems like it would be an easy route for UA.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:32 pm

I don’t believe UA has run 2x to LAX or SFO outside of the summer since the hub closed, regardless of what is in UA advance schedule 90 days out.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:45 pm

^1x LA is insane for a market with over 1000 pax/day (both directions). Given UA's treatment of CLE, this is why I always choose another airline over UA if its equal number of stops (if any) and the timing works, as I refuse to support such rudeness. I'll even pay MORE to not fly UA. Can't wait for the Icelandic services to begin as all my TATL will be on them over UA (whose timings were better than DL or AA).
 
compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:28 am

masseybrown wrote:
Do you mean shrink in CLE or overall?

I think UA got in Wall Street's dog house for shrinking too much (post-merger going from First to Worst? Bethune must be laughing his a** off) and of course they must react to Wall Street. So they reacted by buying a bunch of planes - including their current search for some used 737s. The buying spree means they have to do something with them even if it means competing more with the ULCCs, as AA has concluded it must do. If that is the case, long-haul out of CLE becomes more attractive to them. What is non-stop number 12 going to get them in the LAX-EWR market that they can't get by upsizing aircraft #11?


I was referring to UA's presence in CLE but I think you missed my point.

A poster has hypothesized for roughly two years that UA would grow in CLE due to the low cost, but this is a faux argument. Capital budgeting is used to allocate finite resources, and both you and I agree that UA has been perceived as having a shortage of mainline jets -- a fact UA itself has acknowledged and attempted to rectify, but keeps delaying (new & used aircraft deliveries). In other words... UA will continue to have a perceived shortage of mainline jets in the near-term. And in simple capital budgeting, revelant costs are utilized to determine the best use of finite resources. Sunk costs are NOT revelant but opportunity cost IS USED in the decision making process. My whole point is to demonstrate that the poster's argument is built on false logic.

That said, I just can't envision a scenario in which UA would be interested in growing at CLE. Reality is, CLE is no longer a critical market for UA and upgauging, opportunities for growth at places like SFO & LAX -- even if it meant enduring losses in the short term, etc. would seem to supersede operating a marginal route from CLE. But even when you dig deeper, I fail to see the growth opportunities mentioned. SEA? UA has a shrinking consumer base on both ends, and only managed about 1/3 of its flights to be O/D (and at fairly average yields) during CLE's heyday. What's changed that UA will suddenly be able to fill 80%+ seats with O/D at above average yeilds, especially given that represents pretty much all of the O/D in the market (and not everybody will want the nonstop -- for some, the times won't work and others will be price sensitive). As it is, AS - a better option - hasn't entered the market. And the list goes on.

CLE will experience growth -- eventually, AS will enter the market, F9/NK will add seasonal SAN, AA may add PHX, etc. but the UA days are behind it. And IMO, that's a good thing.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:38 am

masseybrown wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
AC announced YUL>PIT. PIT beats CLE again, not just in football!


Wait to see if they paid for it. :smile:


PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month. They probably sweep that much off the floor of the men's rooms. Still, as an airport manager, do you want to pay for every new route?
 
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flymco753
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:00 am

masseybrown wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
AC announced YUL>PIT. PIT beats CLE again, not just in football!


Wait to see if they paid for it. :smile:


PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month. They probably sweep that much off the floor of the men's rooms. Still, as an airport manager, do you want to pay for every new route?
Heck no, I’ve actually presented this in my Airport Management class this semester, it pays off to pay for the routes that mean the most. If I were an Air Service Director I’d be more interested in pitching money for some international long haul and or top 3 domestic markets and sell my product to Airlines at routes.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:06 am

masseybrown wrote:
PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month.


Ha! What a cheapo airline AC is! I think I'll pay them to come over and clean out my cat's litter box every few days.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:25 am

greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month.


Ha! What a cheapo airline AC is! I think I'll pay them to come over and clean out my cat's litter box every few days.


Well, it would be ridiculous for them to ask for anymore money considering a 1x daily 50-seater is a pretty small investment when they are already getting waived landing fees. Plus, AC is already in PIT and PIT is a relatively proven int'l market.

Pretty good deal for PIT, and a pretty good deal for AC.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:00 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month.


Ha! What a cheapo airline AC is! I think I'll pay them to come over and clean out my cat's litter box every few days.


Well, it would be ridiculous for them to ask for anymore money considering a 1x daily 50-seater is a pretty small investment when they are already getting waived landing fees. Plus, AC is already in PIT and PIT is a relatively proven int'l market.

Pretty good deal for PIT, and a pretty good deal for AC.


Seems like a slam dunk for $50k if CLE was even asked out on the date...perhaps that's the real question.
 
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antoniemey
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:41 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CAK is closing their remote economy parking lot - declining traffic blamed.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/business/bre ... arking-lot


Meh. When they start the terminal renovations in a few months they'll just convert it to the new employee lot.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
thomacf
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 pm

Are airlines still blocked from regularly scheduled service to BKL as a result of the UA pulling down the hub? I know Ultimate Air utilizes BKL, but it is charter. I had always remembered hearing that part of CO having a hub in Cleveland blocked competitors from using BKL. I've wondered if the fees for BKL are less than CLE and if so why doesn't an airline use it instead, especially the low coast carriers? The infrastructure at BKL (sans jet bridges) is there to support service. Heck the terminal is nicer, more well lit and spacious than the concourses at CLE. If people in the area will drive to CAK as they did in the past for cheap fares, they will surly drive downtown to BKL. With the growing population in downtown and more companies moving back into the city, it should be used more or torn down. And the idea of having service to just other nearby cities doesn't make sense either such as LUK, DET or MDW. Why wouldn't a BKL - LAX flight for example work if the vast majority of traffic for Cleveland is O&D now?
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:10 pm

LCCs --or other carriers---using BKL makes complete sense. There would be a capital cost of jet bridges and secruity infrastructure, but passengers would love it and landing fees at Burke are substantially less than at Hopkins. As far as I know, there was an agreement between CO and the city about commercial service at BKL--because CO realized how great BKL was and didn't want that competitive option to its passengers. I would think that agreement is now defunct, given UA's killing of the CLE hub. (I'm not even sure if such an agreement was even legal, hence I've never seen anything in writing about it.) Especially for those who live Downtown, a quick hop to BKL for a flight to MIA or FLL makes a lot of sense. I would love to see frequent (and 7d/wk) service to LGA. Even if it were AA that did this (and not an LCC), they would certainly be setting themselves apart from the other airlines serving CLE-NYC. I recently flew to Cincy--and the only option from cleveland is the flight to Lunken from Burke---and it was a verrrrry wonderful service--and beats the congestion at Hopkins by a mile (and Hopkins is great compared to many other cities). Would love to hear anyone's insight as to why the city isn't now marketing burke to airlines----or if they are---why airlines aren't biting. One question from the above, could BKL handle, say a 738 at MTOW to LAX? The longer runway is only 6604 feet.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:56 pm

Took a walk around Concourse A before I boarded my flight to LAX. Allegiant started using Gate A3 today as their new permanent home. Also looks like Spirit has moved to Gate A2. In addition, the airport signage from Gate A4 has been completely removed and the doorway blocked off. I like these moves because it moves them closer to the main terminal and closer to the bars and eateries on A in general. Looks like Frontier now has full reign of the gates at the end of the concourse.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:45 pm

At Hopkins this morning, all lots AND the garage were full. I parked at the Sheraton. If not, I would have missed my flight. This is the brilliance of Ricky Smith to tear down the long term garage and replace it with a surface lot that has around 15-20% of capacity of the original. And to so when trying to convince UA to stay...
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:09 pm

greenair727 wrote:
At Hopkins this morning, all lots AND the garage were full. I parked at the Sheraton. If not, I would have missed my flight.


Aren't there still off-airport lots nearby? Of course, that requires extra time.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:44 pm

greenair727 wrote:
At Hopkins this morning, all lots AND the garage were full. I parked at the Sheraton. If not, I would have missed my flight. This is the brilliance of Ricky Smith to tear down the long term garage and replace it with a surface lot that has around 15-20% of capacity of the original. And to so when trying to convince UA to stay...


Park Place (my primary lot), Park n' Fly, and Airport Fast Park are all very close-by with over a few thousand spaces between them, all with numerous responsive shuttles.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 pm

The head of Ultimate Shuttle, Rick Pawlak, admits in Ultimate's Nov-Dec in-flight magazine that BKL-LUK is his favorite route. It turns out he lives in Medina and hates his weekly drive to Cincinnati.
 
plinth857
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 pm

greenair727 wrote:
At Hopkins this morning, all lots AND the garage were full. I parked at the Sheraton. If not, I would have missed my flight. This is the brilliance of Ricky Smith to tear down the long term garage and replace it with a surface lot that has around 15-20% of capacity of the original. And to so when trying to convince UA to stay...


It would be interesting to know the actual costs of maintaining that garage, or even the cost of rebuilding a garage. Out of curiosity, how early in the morning was this? I'm going to have to be parking at 5:00 A.M.-ish for my next two flights from CLE, and I hope to park onsite.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:01 pm

SgtBarone wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
At Hopkins this morning, all lots AND the garage were full. I parked at the Sheraton. If not, I would have missed my flight. This is the brilliance of Ricky Smith to tear down the long term garage and replace it with a surface lot that has around 15-20% of capacity of the original. And to so when trying to convince UA to stay...


Park Place (my primary lot), Park n' Fly, and Airport Fast Park are all very close-by with over a few thousand spaces between them, all with numerous responsive shuttles.


I like parking onsite--as every minute counts--don't want to spend 5-10 on and waiting for a shuttle, and walking to a shuttle stop. If you miss a flight by 10 minutes, you don't wait 10 minutes, it could cost you hours til the next flight or even the next day.

But the bigger issue is, parking revenue. did the city of Cleveland go through with the $90M or so deal to buy the some private parking lots on Snow Road? (Park Place may have been one of them.) If they didn't, then the city of cleveland is losing piles of money by turning parking revenue away, which the city needs to pay down debt or to finance a FIS. But it also sends a message against future parking revenue as, not to be caught in a situation with no parking, in the future someone may be dropped off instead (by Lyft or Urber or friend/family) and thus not park at the airport at all.

plinth587 wrote:
Out of curiosity, how early in the morning was this? I'm going to have to be parking at 5:00 A.M.-ish for my next two flights from CLE, and I hope to park onsite.


I had a 10am or so departure and I arrived at the airport around 930-935.
 
joeman
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:28 pm

Regardless of convenience or alternatives....I never understood the rationale for tearing the long term garage down unless the cost of removal was beneficial when compared to the long term revenue benefits and cost of upkeep.
 
N766UA
Posts: 7870
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:26 am

joeman wrote:
Regardless of convenience or alternatives....I never understood the rationale for tearing the long term garage down unless the cost of removal was beneficial when compared to the long term revenue benefits and cost of upkeep.


Cleveland’s a poorly run airport; that’s why they did it. Same reason they block up 3 of 4 lanes with valet and park a cop car in front of the other. Same reason the size, use, and geometry of their security checkpoints makes ZERO sense. Same reason they blast hey there delilah all day at full volume while the bathrooms go uncleaned. It’s JV at best; only the people who go out hunting for new service seem to have any idea what they’re doing, and it’s obvious when the demand outpaces the piss-poor infrastructure.
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:55 pm

^Yeah, that 3-4 lanes of valet is out of hand. How would you reconfigure the security checkpoints? (And I hate the new naming conventions--North, South, and whatever "B" is called now, "1" "2", "3" would have been better if they really felt they had to drop A, B, C.)

Some other unanswered questions from posts above:

Greenair727 wrote:
Did the city of Cleveland go through with the $90M or so deal to buy the some private parking lots on Snow Road?


and

Greenair727 wrote:
Could BKL handle, say a 738 at MTOW to LAX?
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
PIT apparently paid $50,000 over two years for the YUL route. Bargain. $2K a month.


Ha! What a cheapo airline AC is! I think I'll pay them to come over and clean out my cat's litter box every few days.


Well, it would be ridiculous for them to ask for anymore money considering a 1x daily 50-seater is a pretty small investment when they are already getting waived landing fees. Plus, AC is already in PIT and PIT is a relatively proven int'l market.

Pretty good deal for PIT, and a pretty good deal for AC.


It is a proven market? Outside of DL's PIT-CDG what int'l flight is operating without a subsidy there?

As for Canada, PIT is not a proven O&D market outside of YYZ. Case in point: PD did pretty miserably in it's very short stint there.

I don't blame the ACAA for trying to attract as much service a possible but the jury is out whether all those flights will survive. I wish the city of Cleveland were a bit more proactive on subsidizing new service but Cleveland will be Cleveland. If there isn't a kickback nobody at City Hall will care.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:41 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
. I wish the city of Cleveland were a bit more proactive on subsidizing new service but Cleveland will be Cleveland. If there isn't a kickback nobody at City Hall will care.


Speaking of City Hall, isn't the airport ominously quiet since Kennedy's little dust up with the Council or the mayor or whatever that was about. Previously we were getting press releases with some regularity; since then, crickets.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 pm

Greenair727 wrote:
Did the city of Cleveland go through with the $90M or so deal to buy the some private parking lots on Snow Road?


I don't think so. See the below quote from a Plain Dealer article back in July 2015:

"Plans to buy the two lots [Airport Fast Park and Park Place] now appear to have stalled. [Ricky] Smith has said in recent months that the airport still intends to buy the lots, which have a combined 6,100 spaces. But the airport has not sought bonding authority for the purchase, which got city council clearance in October 2013."

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... cleve.html

I couldn't find anything more recent following-up on this.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 1520
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:10 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:

Ha! What a cheapo airline AC is! I think I'll pay them to come over and clean out my cat's litter box every few days.


Well, it would be ridiculous for them to ask for anymore money considering a 1x daily 50-seater is a pretty small investment when they are already getting waived landing fees. Plus, AC is already in PIT and PIT is a relatively proven int'l market.

Pretty good deal for PIT, and a pretty good deal for AC.


It is a proven market? Outside of DL's PIT-CDG what int'l flight is operating without a subsidy there?

As for Canada, PIT is not a proven O&D market outside of YYZ. Case in point: PD did pretty miserably in it's very short stint there.

I don't blame the ACAA for trying to attract as much service a possible but the jury is out whether all those flights will survive. I wish the city of Cleveland were a bit more proactive on subsidizing new service but Cleveland will be Cleveland. If there isn't a kickback nobody at City Hall will care.


Notice how I said "relatively," PIT is a more proven int'l market than say CLE. The fact that there were even two carriers willing to run flights to Toronto in the first place shows that.

Either way though, CLE will likely see a YUL flight in the near future, it is just a matter of which one would come first, and PIT is known for being very good at using incentives to win over air service.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:40 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
I don't blame the ACAA for trying to attract as much service a possible but the jury is out whether all those flights will survive.

In the case of WOW Air forward bookings exceeded expectations that they increased capacity before the service even began. This additional capacity was beyond what the subsidy required. In the case of Condor they will be doubling capacity next year. Double what their subsidy agreement called for. So I don't see any problem with those two routes not only surviving but being very successful. In fact the only subsidized route from PIT I can see having problems post-subsidy is the QR Cargo route if they don't get some long term shippers lined up.
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