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TheFlyingDisk
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JIT convinced to have Irrefutable proof that MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:05 pm

The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is convinced of having obtained irrefutable evidence to establish that on 17 July 2014, flight MH-17 was shot down by a BUK missile from the 9M38-series. According to the JIT there is also evidence identifying the launch location that involves an agricultural field near Pervomaiskyi which, at the time, was controlled by pro-Russian fighters.


So now what? Will Russia accept responsibility & pay repatriations to the families of the victims a la Libya & Lockerbie, or will MH17 join the other flights that are shot down & forgotten?

https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-cras ... mh17-shot/
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Thread title clarified
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thaiflyer
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:18 pm

I hope that Russia will admit responsibility but i will snow burn before that happens i'm afraid.
Putin will deny everything off-course and that will be the end of it.
 
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zeke
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:20 pm

I don't think you will see any change until the leadership has changed, it could take decades.
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garpd
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:25 pm

Russia will just pull out another photoshopped image and claim it was the Ukrainians, again.
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scbriml
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:30 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Will Russia accept responsibility


Two chances - slim and none. Slim's already left town.

I expect our resident "intelligence expert" will be along shortly to tell us the JIT has it all wrong.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:54 pm

I was very impressed with the presentation. The Joint Investigation Team was criticized for taking over 2 years to come with this publication, but I think everyone can see now why it took so long. It's very thorough and frankly I don't think anyone can deny the evidence that was produced. However Russia will certainly try of course. Interesting is that they point out that radar images are now no longer really relevant as the actual launch site has been determined.

The Russians will of course come up with "new" radar images that will prove that the launch location was somewhere in Ukranian held territory, even though the JIT has photographic evidence of a scorched patch of farm land where the missile installation has fired from.

Though sadly, I believe that hopes of bringing to justice any of the scumbags that shot down my 777 will be in vain..

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BestWestern
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:11 pm

Shame on Russia to give rebels such powerful weaponry. I don't believe that they set out to down a civil airliner, but disastrous mistakes happen when you give big boy toys to street corner fighters.

It's the Russian military commander who allowed the rebels to use such equipment that should be before The Hague tribunal for war crimes. Bastards.
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petertenthije
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:16 pm

thaiflyer wrote:
I hope that Russia will admit responsibility but i will snow burn before that happens i'm afraid.
Putin will deny everything off-course and that will be the end of it.

Just two days ago Russia pre-emptively gave "irrefutable" evidence in the form of radar footage that the missile was shot from Ukrainian held territory. Of course this "irrefutable" evidance does directly contradict their earlier "irrefutable" evidence that a fighter had shot the 777.

Anyway, just before the official release of the investigation Russia alread denied the results based on leaked information. Russia are demanding an independant transparant investigation.
Dutch source: http://nos.nl/artikel/2134861-rusland-v ... rzoek.html
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United787
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:25 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think anything will come of this. RIP to the innocent souls that were murdered by a bunch of street thugs supported by a regime controlled by a thug.
 
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garpd
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:56 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Just two days ago Russia pre-emptively gave "irrefutable" evidence in the form of radar footage that the missile was shot from Ukrainian held territory. Of course this "irrefutable" evidence does directly contradict their earlier "irrefutable" evidence that a fighter had shot the 777.


Indeed! Something I pointed out in another thread to a certain conspiracy theorist before it was locked.

petertenthije wrote:
Anyway, just before the official release of the investigation Russia alread denied the results based on leaked information. Russia are demanding an independant transparant investigation.
Dutch source: http://nos.nl/artikel/2134861-rusland-v ... rzoek.html


Of course they did. And even if we have 200 independent investigations all giving the same verdict, they will still deny it and ask for another.
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b747400erf
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:06 pm

A.net has changed, there used to be a few pro Russian posters here that would instantly reply with their talking points. Maybe the funding cut back on the troll factory stories are true after all.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

I think we really knew, but it's good to have confirmation and irrefutable proof. It doesn't completely rule out the possibility of either side doing it, both sides have BUKs after all, but if it was Ukraine then it would be a shock, I struggle to believe that a BUK from Ukraine would be in rebel territory a few miles from the Russian border without either the rebels or Russia knowing.

Russia's ever-changing narrative and stories are also very suspicious. Listing a fighter jet (impossible to have shot MH17 down with the spread of damage and suddenness we know it broke up with), a Spanish ATC controller (of whom there is no record) making some points about the airspace being shut down and MH17 straying (ignoring the AI and SQ flights nearby) and Ukrainian ATC 'ordering the plane to descend to 33,000ft' (not out of the ordinary for a heavy airliner, and irrelevant when SAMs reach up to 60,000ft). All just smokescreens, and if effort has gone into 'proving' those theories then I would be extremely critical of what they say.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:14 pm

All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.

And the bat signal went out, later than usual, because here comes Putin.
 
alfa164
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:46 pm

garpd wrote:
Russia will just pull out another photoshopped image and claim it was the Ukrainians, again.

They already have...another sad attempt at propaganda.

Even the current regime can't seem to produce lies and deception with the cunning of the old KGB... :roll:
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:51 pm

b747400erf wrote:
A.net has changed, there used to be a few pro Russian posters here that would instantly reply with their talking points. Maybe the funding cut back on the troll factory stories are true after all.[/quote

"They're back...."

Kiwirob wrote:
All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:01 pm

Good job by the Dutch public defenders and the international team. Looks like a irrefutable evidence indeed. Hopefully there will be suspects brought to trail, being there or not.

Kiwirob wrote:
All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.


They already were, now it is time for the criminal investigation to come into a trail, but probably this will take another 2 - 3 years. Those are the once really responsible. If Russia gave the installation the the rebels, they are guilty like if I gave a gun to a two year old and the two year old shot someone with it. Russia should take full responsibility for this, but that won't happen unfortunately.
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Maverick623
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:03 pm

b747400erf wrote:
A.net has changed, there used to be a few pro Russian posters here that would instantly reply with their talking points. Maybe the funding cut back on the troll factory stories are true after all.


The Russian posters seemed genuine to me. They rarely started topics of their own, and participated in various CivAv threads that a shill wouldn't even look at.

I haven't really followed Non-Av for about a year, but the Israeli lobby definitely have/had paid posters on this site. It was pretty telling when various accounts would come and go, starting the same topics over and over with the same sound bites, never posting a reply in a CivAv thread unless it was a thread like this.
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salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:22 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Shame on Russia to give rebels such powerful weaponry. I don't believe that they set out to down a civil airliner, but disastrous mistakes happen when you give big boy toys to street corner fighters.


We know that the missile that brought down MH-17 was a Buk from the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade and it follows that this Buk TELAR had to have been manned by Russian soldiers. It is unthinkable that a commander would allow a bunch of untrained, or semitrained individuals to take control of such a sophisticated piece of equipment and drive out of sight with it. It was manned by Russian soldiers, commanded by their normal chain of command, any other circumstance is unthinkable.

What follows is that this BUK TELAR was operating in it's normal mode of operation which means that it was operating in a remote location from Brigade HQ, but within microwave communication range of the search radar which is necessary for target selection, that's the way the Buk system is designed to be deployed.

There is no reason to think, nor evidence to support, any other conclusion as to its mode of operation when it fired on MH-17. If one wants to suppose that the 53rd Brigade commander chose to take leave of his senses and send one of his TELARS out on a mission independent of command and control the next question to be faced is: how did this TELAR wind up almost directly underneath the junction of civilian airways M-70, L-69 and L980?

This was no accident, this had to have been an intentional act, at least at the Brigade level. It isn't possible to know if this Brigade commander was ordered by his higher ups to take this action, in fact this shootdown could have been initiated by a "loose cannon" at any command level in the 53rd's chain of command all the way back to the Kremlin. The irregular "rebels" were certainly involved, but only as support and security for the TELAR; the Dutch investigation has brought us the news that these "rebels" had been haranguing the Russians for air defense assets prior to the shootdown, so they would have been on hand to see the show.

Thinking this was an accident is naive IMO.

BestWestern wrote:
It's the Russian military commander who allowed the rebels to use such equipment that should be before The Hague tribunal for war crimes. Bastards.

And that may include Putin himself, he is certainly guilty of an after the fact coverup
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:40 pm

I really doubt that family and friends well ever get the truth and closure with a trail of those responsible, I feel for them.
More sanctions against Russia might help free up more information about the event. Ever getting Putin and his deputies to the Hauge on charges, I think we will be visited by an alien spaceship before that happens. Sad day.
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:46 pm

salttee wrote:
This was no accident, this had to have been an intentional act, at least at the Brigade level. It isn't possible to know if this Brigade commander was ordered by his higher ups to take this action, in fact this shootdown could have been initiated by a "loose cannon" at any command level in the 53rd's chain of command all the way back to the Kremlin.


I refuse to believe that the Russians would intentionally shoot down an airliner. I believe it was a terrible excedent. I believe they meant to shoot down an Ukraine military cargo plane, as claimed by an Ukrainian rebbel leader. Unless you have irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I maintain this.
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JayBCNLON
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:55 pm

Of course it would be naive to think that this was accident - just as it would be naive to think that there are no Russian trolls or no Israeli aviation lobbyists on this website.

After all the evidence I have seen before today and in the report today it is clear to me that the Russian military executed this mission with authority from the very top. I am just a still wondering, though, whether MH17 was "collateral damage" or whether the Russians deliberately targeted a civilian airliner. I am leaning towards the latter. Maybe they wanted to cut off the revenue that the Ukraine was making from overflight activities. May be they even wanted to provoke more military involvement of the West in the Ukrainian conflict.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Russians would intentionally shoot down an airliner. I believe it was a terrible excedent. I believe they meant to shoot down an Ukraine military cargo plane, as claimed by an Ukrainian rebbel leader.

You are assuming a level of ignorance that simply could not exist within the Russian military. Ukrainian cargo planes would never fly that high or on that flight path (into Russia). There is just no possible scenario where a Ukrainian military plane would have been at 30,000 ft headed into Russia. And please don't tell me that the Russians thought it was a Ukrainian bomber headed to Moscow.

Dutchy wrote:
Unless you have irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I maintain this.

It appears to me that you are the one who needs " irrefutable evidence"; all the evidence so far stacks the other way. You can believe or maintain anything you want for your personal use, but please don't try to sell blind defense of murder to me.
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ComeAndGo
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
salttee wrote:
This was no accident, this had to have been an intentional act, at least at the Brigade level. It isn't possible to know if this Brigade commander was ordered by his higher ups to take this action, in fact this shootdown could have been initiated by a "loose cannon" at any command level in the 53rd's chain of command all the way back to the Kremlin.


I refuse to believe that the Russians would intentionally shoot down an airliner. I believe it was a terrible excedent. I believe they meant to shoot down an Ukraine military cargo plane, as claimed by an Ukrainian rebbel leader. Unless you have irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I maintain this.

30,000 Russian troops at the border ready to invade Ukraine. All they need is a "Reason to invade". If only there was one. Are you sure the intended target was A Malaysian passenger jet and not maybe a Russian passenger jet? If it had been a Russian passenger jet it would've been a piece of cake for Putin to declare war on Ukraine. The Russian intelligence showed a satellite image of an Ukrainian Buk positioned within range of a plane flying close to the front line. The Russian buk was nowhere near the front line. It had been trucked out to Donetsk but then erred and drove back to a position halfway between Donetsk and Russia. Had the buk been at the front line the plane shot down would've been an Aeroflot A320 and Ukraine would've been Russian territory by now.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:53 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
Maybe they wanted to cut off the revenue that the Ukraine was making from overflight activities.
That would be an enormous response for a trivial amount of money.
JayBCNLON wrote:
May be they even wanted to provoke more military involvement of the West in the Ukrainian conflict.
IMO that's very possible, this event could have been orchestrated by a mid-upper level commander who wanted to stir things up to make the Ukrainian "border conflict" a real invasion, or even Putin himself who would love to see the US launch an actual military thrust into Ukraine which would give him an excuse to launch a full on invasion.

ComeAndGo has some valid points too.
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bhill
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm

Curious...not that it seems to matter. Do AA systems like this TELAR have the ability to query transponders on aircraft civilian or military? I would think any of the governments would want this ability to keep friendly fire incident from happening.
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ILNFlyer
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:16 pm

I'm afraid nothing will come of it.
 
aw70
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:31 pm

salttee wrote:
This was no accident, this had to have been an intentional act, at least at the Brigade level.


Let's assume, for argument's sake, that you are right. What sort of motive could Russia have had to down a Malaysian plane in such a manner?

This being an intentional act would require a motive, you know. And for me, this is the one piece of the jigsaw puzzle that is still completely missing. Sure, if the downed flight had been Ukrainian, there might have been something to talk about. Or even if the downed plane had been Russian (false flag, and all that). But... Malaysian? What on earth for?

I'm nit-picking on that aspect because if it was intentional, there is no way the Russian air defence command chain would not have known the exact nature of the target. The only possible scenario for an accident would be "a bunch of pro-russian hicks with a weapon system they barely understand". Professionals, however, would precisely know the location of the airways, and would know the position and callsigns of the various a/c in the region. If this was intentional as you say, they specifically picked MH17 for destruction.

Has anyone ever been able to come up with some sort of motive why this kind of thing might make even the remotest sense for the Russians?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:37 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Russians would intentionally shoot down an airliner. I believe it was a terrible excedent. I believe they meant to shoot down an Ukraine military cargo plane, as claimed by an Ukrainian rebbel leader.

You are assuming a level of ignorance that simply could not exist within the Russian military. Ukrainian cargo planes would never fly that high or on that flight path (into Russia). There is just no possible scenario where a Ukrainian military plane would have been at 30,000 ft headed into Russia. And please don't tell me that the Russians thought it was a Ukrainian bomber headed to Moscow.

Dutchy wrote:
Unless you have irrefutable evidence to the contrary, I maintain this.

It appears to me that you are the one who needs " irrefutable evidence"; all the evidence so far stacks the other way. You can believe or maintain anything you want for your personal use, but please don't try to sell blind defense of murder to me.


Does that level of ignorance exist in the US Navy when they shot down the Iranian airliner? Mistakes happen, unfortunately. I don't see any evidence that this was a deliberate downing of a civilian airliner. So it is in my mind manslaughter not murder, extreem carelessness, trigger happy soldiers.

I see no possible scenario where Russia has something to gain with downing a Malaysian airliner full of my fellow Dutch citizens, that is just a conspiracy theory and I don't subscribe to those. We need to be careful to give blame before hard evidence. I believe in a state of law, so no one it guilty before convicted, of at least hard evidence is in place.

I don't believe I have ever defended Russia like this, I think that the Russian state is a threat to their own people and for their neighbors.
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salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:44 pm

bhill wrote:
Curious...not that it seems to matter. Do AA systems like this TELAR have the ability to query transponders on aircraft civilian or military? I would think any of the governments would want this ability to keep friendly fire incident from happening.
From what I've been able to discern the TELAR itself does not have IFF capability, only the command module can interpret the codes. However, even the command module's IFF capability would not be useful unless that Brigade HQ had troubled itself to keep up to date what IFF codes were in active use by civilian aviation, and this is normally not the case.

IFF as used by the military is different than used by civilians. For the military it is exclusive: that is only your side knows what the "friendly" code is, anything not broadcasting that code is designated hostile. In a military environment, civilian traffic is assumed to be non-existent.
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salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Does that level of ignorance exist in the US Navy when they shot down the Iranian airliner?
I would like to point out respectfully that this is not a valid comparisons; the two situations are not analogous.

In no way do I want to defend the actions of Captain Rogers or his weapons officer on duty, but I have to point out that the USS Vincennes' air defense system was always on board and was operating normally as a defensive system protecting the ship (as normally as one would expect when probing the waters of a "hostile" nation and currently under "attack" by speedboats of that nation). Apparently they saw a target headed straight towards their ship, and developed tunnel vision, and in doing so they assumed an attack. They launched to protect the ship. This is almost a predictable outcome of the events Captain Rogers put into place without consideration for normal Iranian air traffic.

In Ukraine we see a situation where an air defense system was put in place with nothing to defend, the TELAR was not defending the Russian border, it was not protecting the "rebels", it was being used in an offensive manner. Whatever target it was after, it was on offense, not defense.
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alfa164
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:21 pm

ComeAndGo wrote:
The Russian intelligence showed a satellite image of an Ukrainian Buk positioned within range of a plane flying close to the front line. The Russian buk was nowhere near the front line. It had been trucked out to Donetsk but then erred and drove back to a position halfway between Donetsk and Russia. Had the buk been at the front line the plane shot down would've been an Aeroflot A320 and Ukraine would've been Russian territory by now.


Yeah... right... :roll:

In this case, "Russian Intelligence" is an oxymoron...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:27 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Does that level of ignorance exist in the US Navy when they shot down the Iranian airliner?
I would like to point out respectfully that this is not a valid comparisons; the two situations are not analogous.

In no way do I want to defend the actions of Captain Rogers or his weapons officer on duty, but I have to point out that the USS Vincennes' air defense system was always on board and was operating normally as a defensive system protecting the ship (as normally as one would expect when probing the waters of a "hostile" nation and currently under "attack" by speedboats of that nation). Apparently they saw a target headed straight towards their ship, and developed tunnel vision, and in doing so they assumed an attack. They launched to protect the ship. This is almost a predictable outcome of the events Captain Rogers put into place without consideration for normal Iranian air traffic.

In Ukraine we see a situation where an air defense system was put in place with nothing to defend, the TELAR was not defending the Russian border, it was not protecting the "rebels", it was being used in an offensive manner. Whatever target it was after, it was on offense, not defense.


Let's put this to rest, you can't convince me and I can't convince you and leave it to a judge to give his opinion on this matter.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:43 pm

You, nor the Dutch have absolutely any proof whatsoever that the Russian government or Putin had anything to do with this. None.
Was it the rebels? Maybe. Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly.

If Russia says they didn't do it, I believe them. They would have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. The only ones who would stand to gain -and gain mightily- from this shoot-down is the US/NATO. This would make perfect sense in light of the neocon Ukraine/Russia project. Unfortunately nearly everyone in the west is so thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of US/NATO foreign policy history that they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to question its pronouncements.
 
aw70
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:47 pm

salttee wrote:
In Ukraine we see a situation where an air defense system was put in place with nothing to defend, the TELAR was not defending the Russian border, it was not protecting the "rebels", it was being used in an offensive manner. Whatever target it was after, it was on offense, not defense.


One more nitpick: from the viewpoint of the Ukrainian rebels, keeping the regular Ukrainian Air Force out of rebel controlled territory would certainly also count as defence. So them trying to get their hands on as many air defence assets as possible makes perfect sense, even if the UAF was, at best, anaemic and not very combat effective at the time, and even if no offensive operations on the part of the rebels had been planned. There being "nothing to defend" is simply not true, if you also take the viewpoint of the rebels into account.

This is not to say anything about the legitimacy of the rebels, of course. Or to say anything about how sensible it was for Russia to send some of their own kit there, to make the party they already had going on at the time a bit more interesting. Or the fact that the rebels were also actively trying to expand the area controlled by them. All I'm remarking on is that the presence of AA assets in rebel territory is not necessarily indicative of a purely offensive action, as you are implying.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:52 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
You, nor the Dutch have absolutely any proof whatsoever that the Russian government or Putin had anything to do with this. None.
Was it the rebels? Maybe. Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly.

Yea right, except that the TELAR that brought down MH-17 was from the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade.

SCAT15F wrote:
nearly everyone in the west is so thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of US/NATO foreign policy history that they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to question its pronouncements.

Umm, so you don't like NATO, I wonder where you're from.
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alfa164
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:03 pm

b747400erf wrote:
A.net has changed, there used to be a few pro Russian posters here that would instantly reply with their talking points. Maybe the funding cut back on the troll factory stories are true after all.


You spoke too soon... :roll:

SCAT15F wrote:
You, nor the Dutch have absolutely any proof whatsoever that the Russian government or Putin had anything to do with this. None.
Was it the rebels? Maybe. Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly. If Russia says they didn't do it, I believe them. They would have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. The only ones who would stand to gain -and gain mightily- from this shoot-down is the US/NATO. This would make perfect sense in light of the neocon Ukraine/Russia project. Unfortunately nearly everyone in the west is so thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of US/NATO foreign policy history that they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to question its pronouncements.


The Russian propaganda workers are already putting in overtime today...
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:30 pm

aw70 wrote:
There being "nothing to defend" is simply not true, if you also take the viewpoint of the rebels into account.

It wasn't the "rebels" who placed that BUK launcher there, it was the Russian military. Anyone of high enough rank to be in actual command of a BUK system would know better than to place a launcher in the middle of an insurgency operation shooting at anything coming along while thinking he was "defending" the insurgents.

There seems to be an accepted belief among many here that the Russians are incredibly uninformed stupid clods that have no idea what they are doing. I don't know why that is such an easy sell here.
Last edited by salttee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aw70
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:32 pm

alfa164 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
A.net has changed, there used to be a few pro Russian posters here that would instantly reply with their talking points. Maybe the funding cut back on the troll factory stories are true after all.


You spoke too soon... :roll:


What I personally find most annoying about these talking heads is that any actual discussion you might have had in a forum like this gets stifled by these chattering droids. Reasonable debate seems to evaporate very quickly, once the "OMG Russia is EVIL" and "OMG NATO is trying to blame EVERYTHING on poor Russia" types show up.

Trying not to think too much along lines that have been re-hashed countless times, one point to ponder over.

Assuming the shoot-down was indeed perpetrated with a weapon that had been directly provided by Russia to the rebels, with our without crew. And assuming that the shoot-down had not been intentional (see above: for the life of me, I cannot come up with a reason for Russia, or the rebels, doing this sort of thing intentionally). If these two points are assumed, something I don't understand about the stance Russia seems to have taken in all this is - why bother to protect the perpetrators?

To wit: if this was indeed an accident, someone must be responsible. And I cannot see anyone higher up in the Russian command chain having any sympathy for people who are careless enough in the execution of their duties to accidentally cream an airliner full of tourists. And by doing this, severely undermining the very goals Russia seems to be striving for, in this particular theatre. Historically speaking, people have been put in front of firing squads for far less: Thou Shalt Not Fuck Up is still quite an important point in the military, especially if you have people like Putin et al, who are not particularly known for their gregarious humour vis a vis annoying failures, at the top. To these people, the lives of low-level soldiers in a grey area like rebel held territory matter little. Especially as handing over the cretins responsible for the shoot-down would not cost them loyalty within their own army: I can hardly see anyone in the Russian military, down to the rank and file, having any sympathy for the perpetrators of such a lunacy.

And the fact that the actual weapon came from Russia could probably have been obfuscated, given that the Ukrainian army also has similar systems. If Russia had publicly executed the perpetrators (or had the rebels do that for them), and invested all its lying power (so to speak) into claiming the weapon used in the shoot down had come from Ukrainian sources, the whole matter might have not blown out of all proportion like it has.

Instead, a long litany of more or less plausible stories emerged. Strange behaviour, at least up to a point - given how competent Russia seems to act otherwise in its media relations recently.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:41 pm

salttee wrote:
Anyone of high enough rank to be in actual command of a BUK system would know better than to place a launcher in the middle of an insurgency operation shooting at anything coming along while thinking he was "defending" the insurgents.


This is not necessarily true. A BUK system is a very capable anti-aircraft system that can be used against a wide variety of targets: it is perfectly possible for the commanders of such a unit to receive orders such as "go over there into rebel territory: Our Guys know you are coming, and will be looking after you. Be as inconspicuous as possible, but blow any UAF assets that show up out of the sky - to protect the backs of Our Lads who are already over there <wink wink>".

That sort of assignment would also make perfect sense, and would not involve any orders to intentionally destroy an airliner. To be perfectly honest, I cannot see anyone doing something like that intentionally. Not even the Russians (and my opinion of the Russian military is... well, not exactly the best, in some regards).
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:47 pm

aw70 wrote:
I cannot come up with a reason for Russia, or the rebels, doing this sort of thing intentionally).

You need to read up a bit more on the ideas of Niccolò Machiavelli, keeping in mind that this is not just 16th century philosophy, it is 21st century realpolitik: yes there are such people.

Also read posts 28 & 29 above.

Edit: Now they are posts 25 &26 (or timewise they were "moments ago)
Last edited by salttee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:53 pm

aw70 wrote:
it is perfectly possible for the commanders of such a unit to receive orders such as "go over there into rebel territory: Our Guys know you are coming, and will be looking after you. Be as inconspicuous as possible, but blow any UAF assets that show up out of the sky - to protect the backs of Our Lads who are already over there <wink wink>".

No, that is not "perfectly possible." To make a long story short, Air Defense specialists speak a different language (in any language) than you. Again: Russians are not incompetent boobs.

edit: corrected spelling
Last edited by salttee on Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PW100
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:59 pm

salttee wrote:
In Ukraine we see a situation where an air defense system was put in place with nothing to defend, the TELAR was not defending the Russian border, it was not protecting the "rebels", it was being used in an offensive manner. Whatever target it was after, it was on offense, not defense.


It is my understanding that the "rebels" asked/begged for (high-altitude) anti-aircraft system(s), as they were getting their b*tt heavily kicked by Su-25 attacks. Not sure why you would think that there was nothing to defend?

Also, remember that in the days prior to the MH shoot down, several Ukraine military helicopters and Antonov (32?) transport aircraft were downed from 20.000+ ft. That is well out of reach of shoulder launched weapons, and the "rebels" certainly did not have fighter aircraft available. So the only way they could have shut them down was through a BUK type system.
So it seems that there certainly were reasons to "defend something".

I'd turn the reasoning around: as the "rebels" did not have access to aircraft (and Russian fighters won't cross border) there were no reasons for Ukraine to have BUK type system so close to the area of conflict.

PW100
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alfa164
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:59 pm

aw70 wrote:
What I personally find most annoying about these talking heads is that any actual discussion you might have had in a forum like this gets stifled by these chattering droids. Reasonable debate seems to evaporate very quickly, once the "OMG Russia is EVIL" and "OMG NATO is trying to blame EVERYTHING on poor Russia" types show up..


And what everyone else finds annoying is the constant drivel claiming that was a Ukrainian aircraft (already disproven)... or Ukrainian soldiers (who would not have been in Rebel controlled territory)... or that people who look at evidence instead of propaganda are being called "chattering droids".

"Reasonable debate" implies the examination of evidence, and the evidence the Dutch commission carefully considered and weighed was overwhelming. Only the Russian paid trolls seem to be trying to obscure that.

aw70 wrote:
Assuming the shoot-down was indeed perpetrated with a weapon that had been directly provided by Russia to the rebels, with our without crew. And assuming that the shoot-down had not been intentional (see above: for the life of me, I cannot come up with a reason for Russia, or the rebels, doing this sort of thing intentionally). If these two points are assumed, something I don't understand about the stance Russia seems to have taken in all this is - why bother to protect the perpetrators?.


Perhaps you don't realize that Russia's consistent (and patently dishonest) claims that it had no troops or operations inside Ukraine's borders might be a reason for their reluctance.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:04 pm

Say it was a Russian missile, thrown by Ukrainian revels from Eastern Ukraine. Who is to blame? Russians or Eastern Ukrainians? If I sell you a gun (as in many stores in the US they do), and you decide to shot someone, is not my responsibility. If the irrefutable evidence achieved by both the Dutch investigation and the Ukrainian judiciary is sure it was fired by Eastern Ukrainians, then, find the guy and send him to jail. Easy!
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:06 pm

I like Russia, but since I saw those tweets from rebels just after the flight was shot down it has been clear as day to me that it was the rebels who shot it down by mistake, thinking it was a military aircraft.. They should have admitted what happened,.

You are assuming a level of ignorance that simply could not exist within the Russian military. Ukrainian cargo planes would never fly that high or on that flight path (into Russia). There is just no possible scenario where a Ukrainian military plane would have been at 30,000 ft headed into Russia. And please don't tell me that the Russians thought it was a Ukrainian bomber headed to Moscow.


I think you hold Russian military in too high regard as far as training goes, and dismiss the possibility that the BUK could have been operated by rebels who had only very basic knowledge about operating such a machine. Also, I'm sure Ukrainian bombers or whatever were used in the region to bomb positions of the rebels, so I can't see why they couldn't have thought that it was a military aircraft.

In the end it's clear as day that the shootdown has been a major PR disaster to the rebels and Russia even if they haven't admitted responsibility, thus unless they are all idiots there's no way they would have done this on purpose. If you want international support / sympathy for your cause shooting down a pax airliner is never a good idea, anybody with a brain can see that.
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:11 pm

There were two other aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH17 when the incident took place. I often wonder what would have happened if there was an A380 overflying the area that day.

Whatever it was, whether sucking at aircraft IDing, being hopped up on Vodka or being just bored, Russia is responsible.
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:26 pm

What would have happened if it was an LY flight??? Or an American plane? They used to fly over Ukraine while en route to Israel from the US, isn't it?
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:35 pm

PW100 wrote:
It is my understanding that the "rebels" asked/begged for (high-altitude) anti-aircraft system(s), as they were getting their b*tt heavily kicked by Su-25 attacks. Not sure why you would think that there was nothing to defend?

SU25's are not a high altitude threat and your characterization that the insurgents were getting their butts kicked is a bit of hyperbole. Ukrainian SU25 operations were sporadic, I don't think that's controversial. A BUK picking off a target at 33,000 feet has no similarity to an air defense system operating at the forward edge of battle protecting ground troops. The Russians know this, they are experts at FEB air defense, they have conducted defense over forward battlespace many times in many places. For openers, they like to ambush ground attack planes, it is usually a cat n mouse game.

This BUK was not defending any insurgent operation or any insurgent facility, it was not in defense mode; it was on offense.

PW100 wrote:
Also, remember that in the days prior to the MH shoot down, several Ukraine military helicopters and Antonov (32?) transport aircraft were downed from 20.000+ ft. That is well out of reach of shoulder launched weapons, and the "rebels" certainly did not have fighter aircraft available.

A Russian MIG 29 was given credit for the Antonov by the US DOD; the only helicopter down I know of was assumed to have been brought down by a MANPAD. This was the only Russian BUK ever on Ukrainian territory.
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PW100
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:42 pm

eielef wrote:
If I sell you a gun (as in many stores in the US they do), and you decide to shot someone, is not my responsibility.

That is too easy. Better comparison would be this one: you did not sell me just a gun, you sold me a 6000 rounds per minute M61 Vulcan 6-barrel 20mm gun, with plenty of armour penetrating PGU-28 monition. Because I needed a gun for my self protection. Wouldn't you share at least some of the is to blame when my neighbours get killed trying the beast out . . . ?
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