allegiantflyer
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:48 am

United express was name-dropped in this article about IWA
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 429148001/
 
paulsaz
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:00 am

I don't have the exact numbers, but AA is now about 50/50 local vs connecting traffic. US/HP was more 60 connecting and 40 local.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:04 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
United express was name-dropped in this article about IWA
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 429148001/


It would probably do them better to chase after AA for daily service to DFW and I think AA is far more likely to go for it given it gives AA a better diversion option than TUS when the weather takes a nose dive.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:38 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
United express was name-dropped in this article about IWA
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 429148001/

This isn't really new, to be honest. IWA has been pushing UA for UAX service for several years — at least going back to 2010. The airport has been courting them and a handful of others (VX, for example) for nearly a decade now. Previously they were pushing for service to ORD and/or LAX, both of which I think would perform well on CRJ2/CRJ7/E175s. The trick is going to be convincing the first one to take the plunge. NK worked to mediocre effect before they jumped ship to PHX (I think they were testing the waters in the market and had no intention of remaining at IWA long term) and the F9 experiment was nothing short of a failure, like a lot of what they do. Both of those attempts were relatively half-hearted, but it set the airport back a few years. It would be great to see UA take that plunge, but my optimism is tempered considering how long these rumors have swirled. They were actually quite serious rumors in 2012ish, but obviously never panned out.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:50 am

Wasn't DL connection close to starting SLC/LAX- AZA a while back
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:18 am

The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:20 am

777PHX wrote:
The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.

Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.
 
allegiantflyer
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:56 am

atcsundevil wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
United express was name-dropped in this article about IWA
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 429148001/

This isn't really new, to be honest. IWA has been pushing UA for UAX service for several years — at least going back to 2010. The airport has been courting them and a handful of others (VX, for example) for nearly a decade now. Previously they were pushing for service to ORD and/or LAX, both of which I think would perform well on CRJ2/CRJ7/E175s. The trick is going to be convincing the first one to take the plunge. NK worked to mediocre effect before they jumped ship to PHX (I think they were testing the waters in the market and had no intention of remaining at IWA long term) and the F9 experiment was nothing short of a failure, like a lot of what they do. Both of those attempts were relatively half-hearted, but it set the airport back a few years. It would be great to see UA take that plunge, but my optimism is tempered considering how long these rumors have swirled. They were actually quite serious rumors in 2012ish, but obviously never panned out.


In this article they mention UAX to DEN, I agree with others that DL to SLC would be more of a success, If DL takes that plunge to SLC, then maybe UAX could follow.

I was stoked to hear Westjet would be returning, their plunge helps out. The failures of NK and F9 set us back half a decade, but with the local economy in a different state than it was in 2012 I hope others take a second glance.
 
allegiantflyer
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:59 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
allegiantflyer wrote:
United express was name-dropped in this article about IWA
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... 429148001/

This isn't really new, to be honest. IWA has been pushing UA for UAX service for several years — at least going back to 2010. The airport has been courting them and a handful of others (VX, for example) for nearly a decade now. Previously they were pushing for service to ORD and/or LAX, both of which I think would perform well on CRJ2/CRJ7/E175s. The trick is going to be convincing the first one to take the plunge. NK worked to mediocre effect before they jumped ship to PHX (I think they were testing the waters in the market and had no intention of remaining at IWA long term) and the F9 experiment was nothing short of a failure, like a lot of what they do. Both of those attempts were relatively half-hearted, but it set the airport back a few years. It would be great to see UA take that plunge, but my optimism is tempered considering how long these rumors have swirled. They were actually quite serious rumors in 2012ish, but obviously never panned out.


In this article they mention UAX to DEN, I agree with others that DL to SLC would be more of a success, If DL takes that plunge to SLC, then maybe UAX could follow.

I was stoked to hear Westjet would be returning, their plunge helps out. The failures of NK and F9 set us back half a decade, but with the local economy in a different state than it was in 2012 I hope others take a second glance.


But speaking of UAX, FLG should go after them, I think FLG-DEN could be a moderately successful route
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:49 am

Is AA basing the a333s in PHX or are they being rotated in from CLT?PHL/MIA etc.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:56 am

Is there any chance to see Viva/Interjet/AeroMexico in PHX? Currently there is no flights to MOnterry, Interjet could probably make it work w/ a ssj especially with AA connections in PHX. Also Couldn't one of the LCCs fly to MEX as only AA is on that route rn
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:53 am

boeing777200lr wrote:
Is AA basing the a333s in PHX or are they being rotated in from CLT?PHL/MIA etc.

US airlines don't generally "base" aircraft from one specific airport. There are crew domiciles, but airplanes go where they need to provided it receives maintenance somewhere in there. In any event, the aircraft will definitely rotate back to CLT for operational purposes.

boeing777200lr wrote:
Is there any chance to see Viva/Interjet/AeroMexico in PHX? Currently there is no flights to MOnterry, Interjet could probably make it work w/ a ssj especially with AA connections in PHX. Also Couldn't one of the LCCs fly to MEX as only AA is on that route rn

Maybe. AMX pulled out several years ago. They used to run 738s, but they cut back to Costera E145s for a while, then pulled out altogether maybe four years ago. Volaris has done pretty well and has stuck it out for a few years now, so I could see another challenger from Mexico at some point. PHX never really been the booming success to Mexico that one might think, nothing like IAH or DFW. There is some decent service that's generally grown little by little over time, so PHX might be due for another carrier.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:34 am

boeing777200lr wrote:
Is AA basing the a333s in PHX or are they being rotated in from CLT?PHL/MIA etc.


There are only two 330 pilot domicles right now and those are PHL and CLT. The aircraft will be rotated in from one of those stations.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:39 am

boeing777200lr wrote:
Is there any chance to see Viva/Interjet/AeroMexico in PHX? Currently there is no flights to MOnterry, Interjet could probably make it work w/ a ssj especially with AA connections in PHX. Also Couldn't one of the LCCs fly to MEX as only AA is on that route rn


Volaris tried MEX for about 6 months before pulling out. Historically it's always been a struggle to maintain more than one carrier on that route.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:19 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.

Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.


Obviously that traffic isn't valuable enough to justify fragmenting the market. I doubt the BIg 4 gives two squats what WestJet or G4 does.

Why service IWA and ignore the city and the entire Western part of the valley when you could put the same resources into Sky Harbor and please everyone? It's not as if SH is expensive to operate into or slot constrained.

This is the problem IWA continues to run into, there's no logical reason *not* to use PHX.
 
Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:07 pm

777PHX wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.

Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.


Obviously that traffic isn't valuable enough to justify fragmenting the market. I doubt the BIg 4 gives two squats what WestJet or G4 does.

Why service IWA and ignore the city and the entire Western part of the valley when you could put the same resources into Sky Harbor and please everyone? It's not as if SH is expensive to operate into or slot constrained.

This is the problem IWA continues to run into, there's no logical reason *not* to use PHX.


The problem is that PHX is in a catch 22 type situation. Currently, with the way that the leases exist, PHX doesn't have enough free gates for G4's operation at AZA/IWA. However, PHX doesn't want to build enough gates to house G4's operation with the cloud of uncertainty over AA's operation and AA is being very non-committal about the future of their operation (especially as it seems that AA may have secured access to a significant amount of additional gate capacity at LAX hence rumors that AA will soon get greater TBIT access there as well as all of T4 and T5 with the American Eagle operation moving elsewhere).
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:21 pm

I just got back from a trip to BDL and I was surprised to see EI from DUB in thier 757, I also saw in place DY's counter and gate branded for the 737 Max service to EDI. I get DUB but don't see the market from the Hartford/Springfield to EDI. The point is I don't understand why DY has not started service to a European destination from PHX. Maybe the PHX-LHR rumor from AA is an attempt to keep DY out of PHX.
 
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:35 pm

travaz wrote:
I just got back from a trip to BDL and I was surprised to see EI from DUB in thier 757, I also saw in place DY's counter and gate branded for the 737 Max service to EDI. I get DUB but don't see the market from the Hartford/Springfield to EDI. The point is I don't understand why DY has not started service to a European destination from PHX. Maybe the PHX-LHR rumor from AA is an attempt to keep DY out of PHX.


Perhaps this is the reason:
Las Vegas is just too hot for Norwegian Air Shuttle.
Anytime the mercury hits 104 degrees or hotter, the discount carrier is often forced to ground planes filled with nearly 300 passengers headed out of McCarran International Airport, an airline official said Monday.
The mid-day flights were often delayed for several hours until temperatures cooled. The difficulties eroded profits for the discount carrier.
As a result, Norwegian will suspend flights from Las Vegas to four European cities in late March, resuming with “seasonal service” in November 2017.
“This is not something we’ve had happen anywhere else,” said Anders Lindstrom, a spokesman for Norwegian Air Shuttle.


https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/ ... t-too-hot/
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:04 pm

Vctony wrote:
The problem is that PHX is in a catch 22 type situation. Currently, with the way that the leases exist, PHX doesn't have enough free gates for G4's operation at AZA/IWA. However, PHX doesn't want to build enough gates to house G4's operation with the cloud of uncertainty over AA's operation and AA is being very non-committal about the future of their operation (especially as it seems that AA may have secured access to a significant amount of additional gate capacity at LAX hence rumors that AA will soon get greater TBIT access there as well as all of T4 and T5 with the American Eagle operation moving elsewhere).


Apparently SY is also out a gate with the way the new T3 leases are planned to happen and have been asking for a gate on T4 as a result. I think having S1 be entirely WN (assuming WN doesn't give up any of S4) is going to be a problem for PHX as WN hasn't been growing in PHX and I think that will just result in gate squatting.

The way I interpret the LAX gating is that once the Nest is gone, AA will eventually be up about 4 gates but that will only get them another 25-30 departures max.

I think AA will eventually flip the Regional/Mainline split in PHX to a more hub-like split of about 140 Mainline/170 Regional. That could all be done within the existing gates. Right now, the way the gating is setup, both sides of the house are peaked on operations in AM and PM and Regional has now peaked in the middle of the day as well and without (another) gating redesign, AA is more or less out of room to add in the best banks for connections. I don't think AA is going anywhere in PHX as PHX continues to be a great connection hub for them while LAX can target the O&D and international connections with minimal domestic connections.
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MO11
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:32 pm

travaz wrote:
I just got back from a trip to BDL and I was surprised to see EI from DUB in thier 757, I also saw in place DY's counter and gate branded for the 737 Max service to EDI. I get DUB but don't see the market from the Hartford/Springfield to EDI. .


I think D8 threw a bone at BDL, which is desperate for additional international service. It operates to EDI on the three days it doesn't fly EDI-PVD. PVD got D8 service to six European destinations, while SWF got five.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:29 pm

the last couple days AA 600 has been on a A330. Is this a change we are going to see for a while?
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:12 pm

boeing777200lr wrote:
the last couple days AA 600 has been on a A330. Is this a change we are going to see for a while?


It ops until August 21st. AA600 in, AA776 out.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:05 am

AA600 does PHL CLT, CLT PHX. AA776 runs PHX PHL, PHL SNN. However it is a 752 PHL SNN
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:03 am

Would it be viable for DY to fly out of PHX in the middle of the night? They are not looking for connections here so it might work if it clicks with a connection bank in Oslo, Paris or London
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:55 pm

To Connect in Oslo DY would have to leave around 9am from PHX, shouldn't be a problem for the 787 should it? The biggest problem is that the plane would probably have to sit around in PHX for a while.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:41 am

boeing777200lr wrote:
To Connect in Oslo DY would have to leave around 9am from PHX, shouldn't be a problem for the 787 should it? The biggest problem is that the plane would probably have to sit around in PHX for a while.


To get in at about 6-7 AM would require the flight to leave OSL early in the morning. If the flight stayed overnight, sure it could work time wise but I just don't see DY working in PHX with late night arrival/morning departure times.
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777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:05 am

I don't know why DY wouldn't utilize a normal red eye east bound and a day flight westbound.
 
Darenriley
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:04 am

With AA and Alaska scaling back their partnership hopefully this means more non-stop flights from PHX to the northwest. For example, AA has no flights from PHX to Montana.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:44 pm

Darenriley wrote:
With AA and Alaska scaling back their partnership hopefully this means more non-stop flights from PHX to the northwest. For example, AA has no flights from PHX to Montana.


G4 pretty heavily serves the PNW out of KIWA, including four cities in Montana.
 
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treebeard787
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:08 pm

HP used to fly to FCA, and BIL from PHX, using Mesa CRJ's. Neither route lasted a terribly long time though. With the number of connection options from PHX to Montana, and the non-stop offerings from IWA on G4, not sure there is enough of a market to make it worthwhile for AA to offer non-stops. PHX isn't in the best location to offer connections to MT from other places, like DEN and SLC are.
Allons-y!
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:22 am

treebeard787 wrote:
HP used to fly to FCA, and BIL from PHX, using Mesa CRJ's. Neither route lasted a terribly long time though. With the number of connection options from PHX to Montana, and the non-stop offerings from IWA on G4, not sure there is enough of a market to make it worthwhile for AA to offer non-stops. PHX isn't in the best location to offer connections to MT from other places, like DEN and SLC are.


Right before US canceled FCA it was being flown by A319/20s; late summer of 2006 iirc.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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treebeard787
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:30 am

wn676 wrote:
treebeard787 wrote:
HP used to fly to FCA, and BIL from PHX, using Mesa CRJ's. Neither route lasted a terribly long time though. With the number of connection options from PHX to Montana, and the non-stop offerings from IWA on G4, not sure there is enough of a market to make it worthwhile for AA to offer non-stops. PHX isn't in the best location to offer connections to MT from other places, like DEN and SLC are.


Right before US canceled FCA it was being flown by A319/20s; late summer of 2006 iirc.


I didn't realize that route lasted into the US days, or that mainline was used. Interesting.
Allons-y!
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:31 pm

I'm just wondering if any new Eagle routes will be added, last year they practically announced a new route every month or every other month, this year not so much. I'm sure as has been discussed that there are still some holes in the AA PHX network even on mainline such as Nashville, New Orleans, and Raleigh/Durham that need to be filled.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:05 pm

cm642 wrote:
I'm just wondering if any new Eagle routes will be added, last year they practically announced a new route every month or every other month, this year not so much. I'm sure as has been discussed that there are still some holes in the AA PHX network even on mainline such as Nashville, New Orleans, and Raleigh/Durham that need to be filled.


This year has seen STS, MFR, IFP and EUG be added already as well as ASE this Winter. Currently, there simply aren't enough gates to go around for full lines of flying. Likewise, I believe the Skywest CR7s are all pretty much devoted to ORD growth/replacement at the moment so there aren't as many frames available. I would expect that that will be about it for now, once more gates are opened up to a shared Mainline/Regional environment (think Low-B gates), then you will see more added flying.
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cm642
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:22 pm

alasizon wrote:
cm642 wrote:
I'm just wondering if any new Eagle routes will be added, last year they practically announced a new route every month or every other month, this year not so much. I'm sure as has been discussed that there are still some holes in the AA PHX network even on mainline such as Nashville, New Orleans, and Raleigh/Durham that need to be filled.


This year has seen STS, MFR, IFP and EUG be added already as well as ASE this Winter. Currently, there simply aren't enough gates to go around for full lines of flying. Likewise, I believe the Skywest CR7s are all pretty much devoted to ORD growth/replacement at the moment so there aren't as many frames available. I would expect that that will be about it for now, once more gates are opened up to a shared Mainline/Regional environment (think Low-B gates), then you will see more added flying.


It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.
 
Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:06 am

cm642 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
cm642 wrote:
I'm just wondering if any new Eagle routes will be added, last year they practically announced a new route every month or every other month, this year not so much. I'm sure as has been discussed that there are still some holes in the AA PHX network even on mainline such as Nashville, New Orleans, and Raleigh/Durham that need to be filled.


This year has seen STS, MFR, IFP and EUG be added already as well as ASE this Winter. Currently, there simply aren't enough gates to go around for full lines of flying. Likewise, I believe the Skywest CR7s are all pretty much devoted to ORD growth/replacement at the moment so there aren't as many frames available. I would expect that that will be about it for now, once more gates are opened up to a shared Mainline/Regional environment (think Low-B gates), then you will see more added flying.


It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.


I believe that the original plan for T4 called for HP having the North side (with the high gates on N4 being CUTE international) and WN having the South side. I remember reading something here on a.net to the effect that WN had the 1st right to the S1 concourse whenever the city decided to build it (so it's not really news that WN will occupy it since the city went ahead with the project). S1 will also include a new baggage handling system and may include international facilities for WN. Ultimately, what I expect to happen is that WN will be the sole occupant of all of the "D" gates (S1 and S2) and may vacate some of the "C" gates (S3 and S4) so that the total number of WN controlled gates remains somewhere between 22 - 26 or thereabouts. This would leave about 6 - 10 gates in S3 and S4 available for AA, G4, SY, or another carrier. WN benefits because it'll get extra 738 gates as well as nicer passenger facilities (as S1 will probably share more in common with S2 than it will with the cramped and dingy S3 and S4 concourses). I highly doubt WN will "squat" on gates.
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:45 am

Vctony wrote:
cm642 wrote:
alasizon wrote:

This year has seen STS, MFR, IFP and EUG be added already as well as ASE this Winter. Currently, there simply aren't enough gates to go around for full lines of flying. Likewise, I believe the Skywest CR7s are all pretty much devoted to ORD growth/replacement at the moment so there aren't as many frames available. I would expect that that will be about it for now, once more gates are opened up to a shared Mainline/Regional environment (think Low-B gates), then you will see more added flying.


It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.


I believe that the original plan for T4 called for HP having the North side (with the high gates on N4 being CUTE international) and WN having the South side. I remember reading something here on a.net to the effect that WN had the 1st right to the S1 concourse whenever the city decided to build it (so it's not really news that WN will occupy it since the city went ahead with the project). S1 will also include a new baggage handling system and may include international facilities for WN. Ultimately, what I expect to happen is that WN will be the sole occupant of all of the "D" gates (S1 and S2) and may vacate some of the "C" gates (S3 and S4) so that the total number of WN controlled gates remains somewhere between 22 - 26 or thereabouts. This would leave about 6 - 10 gates in S3 and S4 available for AA, G4, SY, or another carrier. WN benefits because it'll get extra 738 gates as well as nicer passenger facilities (as S1 will probably share more in common with S2 than it will with the cramped and dingy S3 and S4 concourses). I highly doubt WN will "squat" on gates.


I would just hope Southwest would expand service to new markets and over 200 daily departures if they're going to have that many gates, if not then it's just a waste of gate utilization that could be utilized by other carriers.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2085
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:43 am

Could WN launch PHX-ISP direct?
Keep on truckin'...
 
Vctony
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:09 pm

cm642 wrote:
Vctony wrote:
cm642 wrote:

It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.


I believe that the original plan for T4 called for HP having the North side (with the high gates on N4 being CUTE international) and WN having the South side. I remember reading something here on a.net to the effect that WN had the 1st right to the S1 concourse whenever the city decided to build it (so it's not really news that WN will occupy it since the city went ahead with the project). S1 will also include a new baggage handling system and may include international facilities for WN. Ultimately, what I expect to happen is that WN will be the sole occupant of all of the "D" gates (S1 and S2) and may vacate some of the "C" gates (S3 and S4) so that the total number of WN controlled gates remains somewhere between 22 - 26 or thereabouts. This would leave about 6 - 10 gates in S3 and S4 available for AA, G4, SY, or another carrier. WN benefits because it'll get extra 738 gates as well as nicer passenger facilities (as S1 will probably share more in common with S2 than it will with the cramped and dingy S3 and S4 concourses). I highly doubt WN will "squat" on gates.


I would just hope Southwest would expand service to new markets and over 200 daily departures if they're going to have that many gates, if not then it's just a waste of gate utilization that could be utilized by other carriers.


Southwest will go over 200 daily departures (at least during peak season) if their current trends hold through. During the March 2017 schedule they were at 191 peak daily departures (and it seems to be trending upwards for the last few years). They go down to 160 - 170ish daily departures during off peak times though. They are dropping LIT but adding DSM (albeit not daily). The expanded maintenance facility should also help retain and possibly expand service. Plus there is discussion that the new concourse may be international capable. I wouldn't be surprised to see PHX - PVR, SJD and maybe CUN and MEX.
 
alasizon
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:31 pm

Vctony wrote:
cm642 wrote:
It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.


I believe that the original plan for T4 called for HP having the North side (with the high gates on N4 being CUTE international) and WN having the South side. I remember reading something here on a.net to the effect that WN had the 1st right to the S1 concourse whenever the city decided to build it (so it's not really news that WN will occupy it since the city went ahead with the project). S1 will also include a new baggage handling system and may include international facilities for WN. Ultimately, what I expect to happen is that WN will be the sole occupant of all of the "D" gates (S1 and S2) and may vacate some of the "C" gates (S3 and S4) so that the total number of WN controlled gates remains somewhere between 22 - 26 or thereabouts. This would leave about 6 - 10 gates in S3 and S4 available for AA, G4, SY, or another carrier. WN benefits because it'll get extra 738 gates as well as nicer passenger facilities (as S1 will probably share more in common with S2 than it will with the cramped and dingy S3 and S4 concourses). I highly doubt WN will "squat" on gates.


Rumor has had it that WN will vacate 4-5 gates in S4. Now depending on what happens there, I fully suspect those will end up as AA gates. I believe SY will end up getting either a gate in T3 if everyone gets along, or if not they will occupy B21 as a fully CUTE gate and share it with WS.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
commavia
Posts: 11420
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:51 pm

alasizon wrote:
Rumor has had it that WN will vacate 4-5 gates in S4. Now depending on what happens there, I fully suspect those will end up as AA gates.


More likely to be AA mainline or RJ?
 
alasizon
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:02 pm

commavia wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Rumor has had it that WN will vacate 4-5 gates in S4. Now depending on what happens there, I fully suspect those will end up as AA gates.


More likely to be AA mainline or RJ?


I would bet Eagle gates given the proximity to the current Eagle operation. However, I think it would be smarter to use them as Mainline/Regional shared gates since that way the Eagle flights could be on existing low-B gates throughout the day and only use those S4 gates during peak or when Regional needs additional gates. That would allow for the majority of the connections to still be on the North side with limited connections to the south side. Basically, if Mainline used them during the AM and PM peaks, it would be low usage but it would probably be better than putting more Regional gates over there and making it that much longer of a connection from N1.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
cm642
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:21 pm

I wonder with all that being said if PHX will modernize Terminal 4 the way they are doing to Terminal 3, everyone knows it is needed. I mean if you look at LAX and SFO what they've done to their terminals so far, hell look at Boarding Area E at SFO, they stripped it right down to its steel beams and completely rebuilt it from the inside out. I just think we need more modern facilities to keep up and compete with other airports and in my own opinion that brutalist architecture isn't really pleasing to look at. Plus airlines do look at passenger facilities apparently, they said when they rebuilt Tom Bradley at LAX it's because they were partly losing out to SFO because SFO had more modern facilities like the international terminal.
 
grbauc
Posts: 831
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:31 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.

Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.


Yes but Skyharbor is not that far away. Grant it Its been a few years since I lived there so I could be wrong but I don't believe traffic is a issue.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:40 pm

alasizon wrote:
Vctony wrote:
cm642 wrote:
It seems to me like AA would benefit more from the final concourse addition rather than SWA. I feel as if SWA is just being greedy with gates they don't seem to really need. They can barely fill the 24 gates they have now. They've been cutting service (down to 170 from the almost 220 they had a few years ago) and can basically do the same amount of daily flights as busier stations like DEN (23 gates/200 daily departures) and LAS (24 gates/203 daily departures) with the gates they have now since it's about equal amount. Plus they were doing 200 something with the same amount they have now a few years ago. There is clearly room to grow with there current gates, I am aware that not all the gates can accommodate the 738s but still it seems kind of redundant. What I could see is SWA moving into the new concourse vacating the high C concourse and AA taking over that concourse for Eagle, it would make sense since the concourse is already directly connected to the high B concourse where most Eagle flights are based.


I believe that the original plan for T4 called for HP having the North side (with the high gates on N4 being CUTE international) and WN having the South side. I remember reading something here on a.net to the effect that WN had the 1st right to the S1 concourse whenever the city decided to build it (so it's not really news that WN will occupy it since the city went ahead with the project). S1 will also include a new baggage handling system and may include international facilities for WN. Ultimately, what I expect to happen is that WN will be the sole occupant of all of the "D" gates (S1 and S2) and may vacate some of the "C" gates (S3 and S4) so that the total number of WN controlled gates remains somewhere between 22 - 26 or thereabouts. This would leave about 6 - 10 gates in S3 and S4 available for AA, G4, SY, or another carrier. WN benefits because it'll get extra 738 gates as well as nicer passenger facilities (as S1 will probably share more in common with S2 than it will with the cramped and dingy S3 and S4 concourses). I highly doubt WN will "squat" on gates.


Rumor has had it that WN will vacate 4-5 gates in S4. Now depending on what happens there, I fully suspect those will end up as AA gates. I believe SY will end up getting either a gate in T3 if everyone gets along, or if not they will occupy B21 as a fully CUTE gate and share it with WS.


WN planning on giving up C1,C2,C11 & C12 .
All these 4 gates are limited to 737-300 or 737-700.
So WN is not giving up a whole concourse just gates that have limited availability with it's evolving bigger fleet.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
grbauc
Posts: 831
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:51 pm

alasizon wrote:
Vctony wrote:
The problem is that PHX is in a catch 22 type situation. Currently, with the way that the leases exist, PHX doesn't have enough free gates for G4's operation at AZA/IWA. However, PHX doesn't want to build enough gates to house G4's operation with the cloud of uncertainty over AA's operation and AA is being very non-committal about the future of their operation (especially as it seems that AA may have secured access to a significant amount of additional gate capacity at LAX hence rumors that AA will soon get greater TBIT access there as well as all of T4 and T5 with the American Eagle operation moving elsewhere).


Apparently SY is also out a gate with the way the new T3 leases are planned to happen and have been asking for a gate on T4 as a result. I think having S1 be entirely WN (assuming WN doesn't give up any of S4) is going to be a problem for PHX as WN hasn't been growing in PHX and I think that will just result in gate squatting.

The way I interpret the LAX gating is that once the Nest is gone, AA will eventually be up about 4 gates but that will only get them another 25-30 departures max.

I think AA will eventually flip the Regional/Mainline split in PHX to a more hub-like split of about 140 Mainline/170 Regional. That could all be done within the existing gates. Right now, the way the gating is setup, both sides of the house are peaked on operations in AM and PM and Regional has now peaked in the middle of the day as well and without (another) gating redesign, AA is more or less out of room to add in the best banks for connections. I don't think AA is going anywhere in PHX as PHX continues to be a great connection hub for them while LAX can target the O&D and international connections with minimal domestic connections.



I hear this so (LAX replacing PHX flying) much and wonder how many people are parroting this also how many people live out here to understand the traffic flow. LAX is a gate way OD Hub. Phoenix is a connection hub. AA is weak in the PNW and LAX is until and unless earth shattering news happens will never be a connection hub. Looking at the big picture with AS partnership heading the way it is PHX is needed more then ever out here in the western half of the country.
 
travaz
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:37 pm

grbauc wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The problem is, there's really no reason not to use Sky Harbor. KIWA doesn't offer much unless you live close to it.

Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.


Yes but Skyharbor is not that far away. Grant it Its been a few years since I lived there so I could be wrong but I don't believe traffic is a issue.



I live on the west side(Peoria ave and the 101) and Sky Harbor is an easy 18 miles down Grand Avenue, maybe 30 minutes usually less. Kiwa is 51 Miles so Sky Harbor is a no brainer
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:00 pm

travaz wrote:
grbauc wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Which 2.5 million people do. WestJet seems to think it's worth it.


Yes but Skyharbor is not that far away. Grant it Its been a few years since I lived there so I could be wrong but I don't believe traffic is a issue.



I live on the west side(Peoria ave and the 101) and Sky Harbor is an easy 18 miles down Grand Avenue, maybe 30 minutes usually less. Kiwa is 51 Miles so Sky Harbor is a no brainer

Okay, well I lived in San Tan Valley, which was 40-45 minutes from PHX, but less than ten from IWA. The airport is 20 minutes away for 2.5 million people, so clearly it's convenient for more than half of the valley's population, which includes Chandler, Gilbert, and Queen Creek — the most affluent area of the valley from a median income standpoint. It clearly wouldn't make sense for you to drive to IWA, but it's a very viable and more convenient option for a large number of people. Yes, PHX is centrally located, but effectively saying "well everybody should just use PHX" is disputed by WestJet serving both airports. Frontier made a lousy effort, but WestJet returning to provide seasonal service proves that they can be profitable running a split operation. The Canadian snowbird population in the east valley is massive, and for them, IWA is by far the closest airport.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2942
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:01 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Vctony wrote:


WN planning on giving up C1,C2,C11 & C12 .
All these 4 gates are limited to 737-300 or 737-700.
So WN is not giving up a whole concourse just gates that have limited availability with it's evolving bigger fleet.

Flyguy


That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why would they give them up instead of simply realigning their gates? What other airlines are going to see value in those gates? Currently, WN has 7 gates that limit which aircraft types can be used in certain scenarios...requiring an adjacent gate to either be empty occupied by a 737-300 in S2, S3 and S4. If they do gate realignment in S2 and S3 by taking out a gate in each concourse, then they all could be 737MAX8 capable. Expect S1 to also accommodate 7 737 8MAXs simultaneously.

The latest word is that once S1 is complete, WN will vacate S4, which will go back to the City of Phoenix to be redeveloped into an international concourse and tie in with the existing FIS facility on N4. This will ultimately enable WN to expand into international markets from PHX by using S4 on a per use basis.
.......
 
travaz
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 18

Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:11 pm

Okay, well I lived in San Tan Valley, which was 40-45 minutes from PHX, but less than ten from IWA. The airport is 20 minutes away for 2.5 million people, so clearly it's convenient for more than half of the valley's population, which includes Chandler, Gilbert, and Queen Creek — the most affluent area of the valley from a median income standpoint. It clearly wouldn't make sense for you to drive to IWA, but it's a very viable and more convenient option for a large number of people. Yes, PHX is centrally located, but effectively saying "well everybody should just use PHX" is disputed by WestJet serving both airports. Frontier made a lousy effort, but WestJet returning to provide seasonal service proves that they can be profitable running a split operation. The Canadian snowbird population in the east valley is massive, and for them, IWA is by far the closest airport.[/quote]

I get it. I was not saying that it doesn't have a place for Airline Service, I was really just stating my position and location. If Willie had a smokin deal to somewhere I wanted to go, I would make the drive.

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