jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:55 pm

cvgComair wrote:
When you look at this, it is clear why UA is entering SFO, there is a ton of unmet demand! Also, LAX is very underserved, part of it is the other airports in Los Angeles (ONT/LGB/SNA), but it still seems like there is enough room for UA, AA, or even WN to add a daily flight.


Southwest is already full at LAX at the moment with Southwest's domestic flights to and from LAX currently being operated out of only 10 gates in Terminal 1 at LAX, but 4 additional gates will be reopening in Terminal 1 at LAX that will allow Southwest to add additional flights at LAX after at least one additional gate is reopened in Terminal 1 at LAX. Southwest doesn't yet have room at LAX to do CVG-LAX nonstop service with construction still going on in Terminal 1 at LAX, but will have room at LAX to add CVG-LAX nonstop service after additional gates are reopened at Terminal 1 at LAX.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:15 pm

jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
When you look at this, it is clear why UA is entering SFO, there is a ton of unmet demand! Also, LAX is very underserved, part of it is the other airports in Los Angeles (ONT/LGB/SNA), but it still seems like there is enough room for UA, AA, or even WN to add a daily flight.


Southwest is already full at LAX at the moment with Southwest's domestic flights to and from LAX currently being operated out of only 10 gates in Terminal 1 at LAX, but 4 additional gates will be reopening in Terminal 1 at LAX that will allow Southwest to add additional flights at LAX after at least one additional gate is reopened in Terminal 1 at LAX. Southwest doesn't yet have room at LAX to do CVG-LAX nonstop service with construction still going on in Terminal 1 at LAX, but will have room at LAX to add CVG-LAX nonstop service after additional gates are reopened at Terminal 1 at LAX.


When will that be?
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:07 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
When you look at this, it is clear why UA is entering SFO, there is a ton of unmet demand! Also, LAX is very underserved, part of it is the other airports in Los Angeles (ONT/LGB/SNA), but it still seems like there is enough room for UA, AA, or even WN to add a daily flight.


Southwest is already full at LAX at the moment with Southwest's domestic flights to and from LAX currently being operated out of only 10 gates in Terminal 1 at LAX, but 4 additional gates will be reopening in Terminal 1 at LAX that will allow Southwest to add additional flights at LAX after at least one additional gate is reopened in Terminal 1 at LAX. Southwest doesn't yet have room at LAX to do CVG-LAX nonstop service with construction still going on in Terminal 1 at LAX, but will have room at LAX to add CVG-LAX nonstop service after additional gates are reopened at Terminal 1 at LAX.


When will that be?


The LAX Terminal 1 renovations are supposed to be completed next year.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:52 pm

jplatts wrote:
...San Antonio, the largest city in the U.S. that is without nonstop service from CVG...


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio and have no nonstop flights to Cincinnati. Without getting into the whole CSA-MSA debate, a better statistic for comparison is total annual passengers (2016) at airport:

PDX: 18.3 million
SMF: 10.1 million
SAT: 8.6 million
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:15 pm

jbpdx wrote:
jplatts wrote:
...San Antonio, the largest city in the U.S. that is without nonstop service from CVG...


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio and have no nonstop flights to Cincinnati. Without getting into the whole CSA-MSA debate, a better statistic for comparison is total annual passengers (2016) at airport:

PDX: 18.3 million
SMF: 10.1 million
SAT: 8.6 million


Are you telling me that annual passenger traffic is a good metric to use to compare cities???

??? Annual passengers at an airport does not tell anything about the area being served, because wherever an airline has a hub the annual passenger traffic will be inflated.
Let me show you why this makes no sense

Lets compare Salt Lake City and Charlotte to Washington DC
2015 total passenger boardings
SLC:10,634,519
CLT:21,913,156

DCA: 11,242,375
IAD:10,363,918
Are you going to tell me that Charlotte and Salt lake City are cities more deserving of nonstop service than WASHINGTON DC

ATL:49,340,732
JFK:27,717,503
Do you think Atlanta is more deserving of nonstop service than NYC

You can't compare annual passenger traffic, when talking about nonstop service

If you are comparing annual passenger traffic, CVG would have service to LHR and DXB by now!
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:19 pm

An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:27 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.


Southwest is going to be starting nonstop service from CVG to MDW and BWI on Sunday.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:36 pm

jbpdx wrote:
jplatts wrote:
...San Antonio, the largest city in the U.S. that is without nonstop service from CVG...


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio and have no nonstop flights to Cincinnati. Without getting into the whole CSA-MSA debate, a better statistic for comparison is total annual passengers (2016) at airport:

PDX: 18.3 million
SMF: 10.1 million
SAT: 8.6 million


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio[/quote]

Absolutely false

2016 Census Estimate

San Antonio:2,429,609
Portland:2,424,955
Sacramento: 2,296,418
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:05 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.


As jplatts said, Southwest starts service Sunday.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:11 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.

I know it does not happen often, but I would love to see WN launch new routes at CVG on Sunday. According to http://www.wlwt.com/article/a-new-airli ... vg/9964475, Southwest officials even commented to the media that they hope to expand flight options at CVG. With all the WN officials already at the airport and coming over the next few days, I don't think it is too much of a stretch. Also, it looks like the gate area is finally open. I can't wait for Sunday, unfortunately I will be watching from San Jose :-(.
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:23 am

AirportRival wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.


As jplatts said, Southwest starts service Sunday.


It's obviously not that we all now that. I don't know if it's an announcement or an event but something. He indicated it has nothing to do with southwest.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:23 am

cvgComair wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.

I know it does not happen often, but I would love to see WN launch new routes at CVG on Sunday. According to http://www.wlwt.com/article/a-new-airli ... vg/9964475, Southwest officials even commented to the media that they hope to expand flight options at CVG. With all the WN officials already at the airport and coming over the next few days, I don't think it is too much of a stretch. Also, it looks like the gate area is finally open. I can't wait for Sunday, unfortunately I will be watching from San Jose :-(.


I'll be on the inaugural :D
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:26 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
An airport worker indicated there is something going on at CVG on Sunday.


As jplatts said, Southwest starts service Sunday.


It's obviously not that we all now that. I don't know if it's an announcement or an event but something. He indicated it has nothing to do with southwest.


Maybe it's a 5k run on 18R/36L.

...I'll see myself out.

Seriously, though, are there service announcements on Sundays? I've always taken them to be a weekday thing. F9 at CMH was a Monday or Tuesday- can't remember, all I know is I flew out of CMH that afternoon.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:28 am

It's certainly been an overlooked add, but G4 begins CVG-DEN tomorrow!
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:31 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Seriously, though, are there service announcements on Sundays? I've always taken them to be a weekday thing. F9 at CMH was a Monday or Tuesday- can't remember, all I know is I flew out of CMH that afternoon.


The only airline that I can think of that announces routes on Sundays is DL. All of their recent expansions have come on Sundays and they have been loading their changes on that day or sometimes late Saturday. UE also seems to announce their routes on Sunday, however, I highly doubt any route expansions are going to be announced by any airlines.

There are a ton of non-route aviation announcement that could made in the near future, which a staff member might have heard about. This includes the release of the master plan, what the rental car facility will look like, and what concessions are coming to Concourse B. There is also a terminal modernization project coming up too.
Last edited by cvgComair on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:35 am

cvgComair wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Seriously, though, are there service announcements on Sundays? I've always taken them to be a weekday thing. F9 at CMH was a Monday or Tuesday- can't remember, all I know is I flew out of CMH that afternoon.


The only airline that I can think of that announces routes on Sundays is DL. All of their recent expansions have come on Sundays and they have been loading their changes on that day or sometimes late Saturday.


Guys it might be nothing. I doubt it's a route expansion. All he said was I got some insight on something on Sunday that doesn't deal with southwest but I don't think I'm aloud to tell.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:51 pm

According to the Cincinnati Business Courier (unfortunately most of the article is behind a paywall, but the video gives information: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... -what.html). Apparently Southwest officials said they hope to become Cincinnati's "hometown carrier". That is quite a bold statement, since DL has 50% of the traffic at the airport, assuming DL remains constant, that means they would eventually serve just under 4 million travelers a year to be the largest carrier with a 35% share! I would love it, but I am not so sure we have enough O&D to support that level of service just yet. Apparently comparisons were drawn to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, all which had large US3(6) hubs and were dehubbed. This just seems a little too ambitious, but I never though G4/F9 would grow as much as they have, so who knows!
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
Briancw
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:59 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
I referenced that story in the thread I made regarding the "exciting announcement"- I think there was another TV or Dispatch story before that as well. The only "source" I have is a Dispatch business writer who seems to do most of the CMH/LCK stories and with whom I've interacted with on Twitter. She and somebody in the Central Ohio Spotters Facebook group were the two who knew about the 5k and figured it was what they were going to announce.


Ah, I see. Yeah, the Columbus TATL rumor has been on going for years. One day...

Anyways, appreciate the insight...even if it is just a 5K, lol.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:21 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Apparently Southwest officials said they hope to become Cincinnati's "hometown carrier". That is quite a bold statement, since DL has 50% of the traffic at the airport, assuming DL remains constant, that means they would eventually serve just under 4 million travelers a year to be the largest carrier with a 35% share! I would love it, but I am not so sure we have enough O&D to support that level of service just yet. Apparently comparisons were drawn to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, all which had large US3(6) hubs and were dehubbed. This just seems a little too ambitious, but I never though G4/F9 would grow as much as they have, so who knows!


I'd never heard that phrase from WN until about three minutes ago, and now I've seen it twice:

Columbus is one of fewer than a quarter of the 102 cities that we serve where we’ve declared we want to be the ’Hometown Carrier,’” said Carter Ganss, director of business development for Southwest. “It’s a market where we plan to continue looking for opportunities to add service.”

WN also wants to add CMH-LGA but doesn't have the slots. CRAA would like CMH-SFO, SAN, and MKE nonstops from WN.

http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170602/s ... years-here
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:54 pm

cvgComair wrote:
According to the Cincinnati Business Courier (unfortunately most of the article is behind a paywall, but the video gives information: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... -what.html). Apparently Southwest officials said they hope to become Cincinnati's "hometown carrier". That is quite a bold statement, since DL has 50% of the traffic at the airport, assuming DL remains constant, that means they would eventually serve just under 4 million travelers a year to be the largest carrier with a 35% share! I would love it, but I am not so sure we have enough O&D to support that level of service just yet. Apparently comparisons were drawn to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, all which had large US3(6) hubs and were dehubbed. This just seems a little too ambitious, but I never though G4/F9 would grow as much as they have, so who knows!


I would think for them to be the "hometown carrier" (assuming we are taking that to mean most passengers) at CVG it would take DL to cut a bunch of flights like the mentioned STL, PIT, CLE had their flights cut when they were fully dehubbed.
 
CVGDTWfan
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
According to the Cincinnati Business Courier (unfortunately most of the article is behind a paywall, but the video gives information: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... -what.html). Apparently Southwest officials said they hope to become Cincinnati's "hometown carrier". That is quite a bold statement, since DL has 50% of the traffic at the airport, assuming DL remains constant, that means they would eventually serve just under 4 million travelers a year to be the largest carrier with a 35% share! I would love it, but I am not so sure we have enough O&D to support that level of service just yet. Apparently comparisons were drawn to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, all which had large US3(6) hubs and were dehubbed. This just seems a little too ambitious, but I never though G4/F9 would grow as much as they have, so who knows!


I would think for them to be the "hometown carrier" (assuming we are taking that to mean most passengers) at CVG it would take DL to cut a bunch of flights like the mentioned STL, PIT, CLE had their flights cut when they were fully dehubbed.


And with Delta maintaining a steady level of departures for the past few years and even upgrading some of their routes, I don't think that they're gonna pull the plug on CVG anytime soon. Would be kind of interesting to see Delta really try to defend CVG against WN like it did with other LCC's back in CVG's heyday.
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:33 pm

CVGDTWfan wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
According to the Cincinnati Business Courier (unfortunately most of the article is behind a paywall, but the video gives information: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... -what.html). Apparently Southwest officials said they hope to become Cincinnati's "hometown carrier". That is quite a bold statement, since DL has 50% of the traffic at the airport, assuming DL remains constant, that means they would eventually serve just under 4 million travelers a year to be the largest carrier with a 35% share! I would love it, but I am not so sure we have enough O&D to support that level of service just yet. Apparently comparisons were drawn to St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, all which had large US3(6) hubs and were dehubbed. This just seems a little too ambitious, but I never though G4/F9 would grow as much as they have, so who knows!


I would think for them to be the "hometown carrier" (assuming we are taking that to mean most passengers) at CVG it would take DL to cut a bunch of flights like the mentioned STL, PIT, CLE had their flights cut when they were fully dehubbed.


And with Delta maintaining a steady level of departures for the past few years and even upgrading some of their routes, I don't think that they're gonna pull the plug on CVG anytime soon. Would be kind of interesting to see Delta really try to defend CVG against WN like it did with other LCC's back in CVG's heyday.


I agree with that. I think if they haven't pulled out by now they are probably sticking around. It will be interesting to see how hard WN fights them if they don't give in any. I wonder if WN could fight back some of the other carriers instead. I don't really consider on the same level as Frontier but that might be an interesting fight also. I know Frontier probably already has a pretty good following though since they have been there awhile. I will be interested to see when WN starts adding destinations and where they add them.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:46 pm

Yeah, I think you're going to get one or the other between a Delta hub and a Southwest "Hometown Carrier" at CVG. Even if DL were to pull down the hub, you've still got incumbents F9 and G4 to deal with. An established DL hub, two ULCC focus cities, and a de facto WN focus city sounds like too many cooks.

I don't know how much room WN would still have to expand at CVG, but gate space sounds like it's definitely at a premium. For comparison, WN ran flights to eight destinations out of 2-3 gates at CMH (C49-50, later A2-4) before CO/UA merged and WN got it all to themselves: BWI, MDW, LAS, BNA, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA. They're now at 17+2 weekend/seasonal.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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jbpdx
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:38 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
jplatts wrote:
...San Antonio, the largest city in the U.S. that is without nonstop service from CVG...


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio and have no nonstop flights to Cincinnati. Without getting into the whole CSA-MSA debate, a better statistic for comparison is total annual passengers (2016) at airport:

PDX: 18.3 million
SMF: 10.1 million
SAT: 8.6 million


Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio


Absolutely false

2016 Census Estimate

San Antonio:2,429,609
Portland:2,424,955
Sacramento: 2,296,418[/quote]


Absolutely true: Portland CSA: 3.1 million, No. 18.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:57 pm

jbpdx wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jbpdx wrote:



Metro Portland and metro Sacramento are bigger than metro San Antonio


Absolutely false

2016 Census Estimate

San Antonio:2,429,609
Portland:2,424,955
Sacramento: 2,296,418



Absolutely true: Portland CSA: 3.1 million, No. 18.[/quote]

You do realize metro and csa are two different numbers right?
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:25 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
I don't know how much room WN would still have to expand at CVG, but gate space sounds like it's definitely at a premium. For comparison, WN ran flights to eight destinations out of 2-3 gates at CMH (C49-50, later A2-4) before CO/UA merged and WN got it all to themselves: BWI, MDW, LAS, BNA, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA. They're now at 17+2 weekend/seasonal.


While gate space is at a premium, if they needed more gates, they have A3/5 and will be able to take over A1/2 once they are finished. They could also use A4 a few times a day, but there are other flights out of that gate. That would allow them to do about 36 flights a day, which gives them roughly 3.7 million passengers a year, so, they technically could achieve "hometown airline" status with the gate space available.

I am really interested to see how WN does at CVG and what DL's response is. Unlike CLE/STL/PIT/MEM/BNA, WN came into the market while the hub carrier was downsizing, whereas Delta has been stable in Cincinnati for almost three years and has shown no intentions of further downsizing, instead adding back capacity. This really is a scenario that has never taken place before. It's crazy to think CVG has survived 12 years since the first cuts and a decade after the NW/DL merger. I would have to think they see potential in Cincinnati if they are not continuing to downsize, even before it became a DL hub in 1984, Cincy has always been a large market in DL's system.

I am interested to see how G4/F9/DL/WN coexist. WN should come in this fall as #4 behind Delta, Frontier and American, so they will still have some leverage. WN already has significant leverage on both of its routes, they will give Delta a run for their money on pretty much any route they enter.

Chicago daily seats (ORD/MDW/MKE)
Southwest: 715 (5x/day)
United: 556 (7x/day)
American: 395 (7x/day)
Delta: 371 (6x/day)

Washington DC daily seats (DCA/IAD/BWI)
Delta: 437 (6x/day)
Southwest: 429 (3x/day)
United: 221 (3x/day)
American: 169 (3x/day)
Allegiant: 45 (2-3x/week)
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jbpdx wrote:

Absolutely false

2016 Census Estimate

San Antonio:2,429,609
Portland:2,424,955
Sacramento: 2,296,418



Absolutely true: Portland CSA: 3.1 million, No. 18.


You do realize metro and csa are two different numbers right?


San Antonio is not part of any CSA, so I am not sure how that is a valid way to compare the cities. Fact is they are some of the largest cities not served from this area, I am not seeing the point of arguing which city is bigger. The demand is not proportional to the size of the city, there are many more factors, CVG-XNA is a prime example, Fayetteville is crazy small in population but there is a ton of premium demand on the route, so DL flies it. Just like SMF may have a larger population, there is not going to be a nonstop there from CVG/IND/CMH anytime soon.
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:03 pm

cvgComair wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I don't know how much room WN would still have to expand at CVG, but gate space sounds like it's definitely at a premium. For comparison, WN ran flights to eight destinations out of 2-3 gates at CMH (C49-50, later A2-4) before CO/UA merged and WN got it all to themselves: BWI, MDW, LAS, BNA, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA. They're now at 17+2 weekend/seasonal.


While gate space is at a premium, if they needed more gates, they have A3/5 and will be able to take over A1/2 once they are finished. They could also use A4 a few times a day, but there are other flights out of that gate. That would allow them to do about 36 flights a day, which gives them roughly 3.7 million passengers a year, so, they technically could achieve "hometown airline" status with the gate space available.

I am really interested to see how WN does at CVG and what DL's response is. Unlike CLE/STL/PIT/MEM/BNA, WN came into the market while the hub carrier was downsizing, whereas Delta has been stable in Cincinnati for almost three years and has shown no intentions of further downsizing, instead adding back capacity. This really is a scenario that has never taken place before. It's crazy to think CVG has survived 12 years since the first cuts and a decade after the NW/DL merger. I would have to think they see potential in Cincinnati if they are not continuing to downsize, even before it became a DL hub in 1984, Cincy has always been a large market in DL's system.

I am interested to see how G4/F9/DL/WN coexist. WN should come in this fall as #4 behind Delta, Frontier and American, so they will still have some leverage. WN already has significant leverage on both of its routes, they will give Delta a run for their money on pretty much any route they enter.

Chicago daily seats (ORD/MDW/MKE)
Southwest: 715 (5x/day)
United: 556 (7x/day)
American: 395 (7x/day)
Delta: 371 (6x/day)

Washington DC daily seats (DCA/IAD/BWI)
Delta: 437 (6x/day)
Southwest: 429 (3x/day)
United: 221 (3x/day)
American: 169 (3x/day)
Allegiant: 45 (2-3x/week)


I think WN could really hurt G4 the most, routes like AUS, BWI, DEN, FLL, LAS, LAX, SFB, EWR, MSY, AZA, and PIE all operate in cities where WN has a large presence and a better low-cost product. I think F9 can hold its own with WN, because F9 doesn't operate as many routes from CVG to large WN stations (Example. MSP, SFO, DFW, IAH)
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:32 pm

Officially checked in for the Inaugural. We're actually getting the Kidds kids livery which is kinda cool for the inaugural.
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 306
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:30 pm

Image

They're ready for the big event. Gate area is still closed though. I'm guessing they'll open it tomorrow morning
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jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:49 pm

cvgComair wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I don't know how much room WN would still have to expand at CVG, but gate space sounds like it's definitely at a premium. For comparison, WN ran flights to eight destinations out of 2-3 gates at CMH (C49-50, later A2-4) before CO/UA merged and WN got it all to themselves: BWI, MDW, LAS, BNA, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA. They're now at 17+2 weekend/seasonal.


While gate space is at a premium, if they needed more gates, they have A3/5 and will be able to take over A1/2 once they are finished. They could also use A4 a few times a day, but there are other flights out of that gate. That would allow them to do about 36 flights a day, which gives them roughly 3.7 million passengers a year, so, they technically could achieve "hometown airline" status with the gate space available.

I am really interested to see how WN does at CVG and what DL's response is. Unlike CLE/STL/PIT/MEM/BNA, WN came into the market while the hub carrier was downsizing, whereas Delta has been stable in Cincinnati for almost three years and has shown no intentions of further downsizing, instead adding back capacity. This really is a scenario that has never taken place before. It's crazy to think CVG has survived 12 years since the first cuts and a decade after the NW/DL merger. I would have to think they see potential in Cincinnati if they are not continuing to downsize, even before it became a DL hub in 1984, Cincy has always been a large market in DL's system.

I am interested to see how G4/F9/DL/WN coexist. WN should come in this fall as #4 behind Delta, Frontier and American, so they will still have some leverage. WN already has significant leverage on both of its routes, they will give Delta a run for their money on pretty much any route they enter.

Chicago daily seats (ORD/MDW/MKE)
Southwest: 715 (5x/day)
United: 556 (7x/day)
American: 395 (7x/day)
Delta: 371 (6x/day)

Washington DC daily seats (DCA/IAD/BWI)
Delta: 437 (6x/day)
Southwest: 429 (3x/day)
United: 221 (3x/day)
American: 169 (3x/day)
Allegiant: 45 (2-3x/week)


Southwest already has nonstops from Dallas Love Field to the following 7 Delta Air Lines hub airports: Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York-LaGuardia, Salt Lake City, and Seattle. Southwest also has nonstop service between Dallas Love Field and Delta's Raleigh/Durham focus city. Delta does not currently operate nonstops between Dallas and Seattle, between Dallas and Boston, or between Dallas and Raleigh/Durham, but it does have nonstops from DFW to the other 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities that Southwest flies to nonstop from DAL, plus nonstops from DFW to Cincinnati, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and New York-JFK, plus nonstops from Dallas Love Field to its ATL hub.

Southwest might be able to successfully compete against Delta on DAL-CVG nonstop service if it adds DAL-CVG nonstop service for several reasons. First, some of the customers who travel between Cincinnati and Dallas are willing to travel on airlines other than American and Delta. Second, Southwest can provide connections to cities in Texas and New Mexico that are not served nonstop from CVG through DAL if it adds nonstop service from DAL to CVG. Third, Southwest already competes against Delta on nonstop flights between Dallas and 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities. Fourth, demand for Dallas to Cincinnati flights has significantly increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and there might be enough demand for DAL-CVG nonstop service. Fifth, Delta Air Lines has never announced any plans to operate nonstops between CVG and DAL. Finally, there are customers in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex, in other parts of Texas, and in the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico who are loyal to Southwest Airlines and would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines that serve CVG if Southwest added DAL to CVG nonstop service.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:32 pm

jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I don't know how much room WN would still have to expand at CVG, but gate space sounds like it's definitely at a premium. For comparison, WN ran flights to eight destinations out of 2-3 gates at CMH (C49-50, later A2-4) before CO/UA merged and WN got it all to themselves: BWI, MDW, LAS, BNA, MCO, PHX, STL, TPA. They're now at 17+2 weekend/seasonal.


While gate space is at a premium, if they needed more gates, they have A3/5 and will be able to take over A1/2 once they are finished. They could also use A4 a few times a day, but there are other flights out of that gate. That would allow them to do about 36 flights a day, which gives them roughly 3.7 million passengers a year, so, they technically could achieve "hometown airline" status with the gate space available.

I am really interested to see how WN does at CVG and what DL's response is. Unlike CLE/STL/PIT/MEM/BNA, WN came into the market while the hub carrier was downsizing, whereas Delta has been stable in Cincinnati for almost three years and has shown no intentions of further downsizing, instead adding back capacity. This really is a scenario that has never taken place before. It's crazy to think CVG has survived 12 years since the first cuts and a decade after the NW/DL merger. I would have to think they see potential in Cincinnati if they are not continuing to downsize, even before it became a DL hub in 1984, Cincy has always been a large market in DL's system.

I am interested to see how G4/F9/DL/WN coexist. WN should come in this fall as #4 behind Delta, Frontier and American, so they will still have some leverage. WN already has significant leverage on both of its routes, they will give Delta a run for their money on pretty much any route they enter.

Chicago daily seats (ORD/MDW/MKE)
Southwest: 715 (5x/day)
United: 556 (7x/day)
American: 395 (7x/day)
Delta: 371 (6x/day)

Washington DC daily seats (DCA/IAD/BWI)
Delta: 437 (6x/day)
Southwest: 429 (3x/day)
United: 221 (3x/day)
American: 169 (3x/day)
Allegiant: 45 (2-3x/week)


Southwest already has nonstops from Dallas Love Field to the following 7 Delta Air Lines hub airports: Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York-LaGuardia, Salt Lake City, and Seattle. Southwest also has nonstop service between Dallas Love Field and Delta's Raleigh/Durham focus city. Delta does not currently operate nonstops between Dallas and Seattle, between Dallas and Boston, or between Dallas and Raleigh/Durham, but it does have nonstops from DFW to the other 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities that Southwest flies to nonstop from DAL, plus nonstops from DFW to Cincinnati, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and New York-JFK, plus nonstops from Dallas Love Field to its ATL hub.

Southwest might be able to successfully compete against Delta on DAL-CVG nonstop service if it adds DAL-CVG nonstop service for several reasons. First, some of the customers who travel between Cincinnati and Dallas are willing to travel on airlines other than American and Delta. Second, Southwest can provide connections to cities in Texas and New Mexico that are not served nonstop from CVG through DAL if it adds nonstop service from DAL to CVG. Third, Southwest already competes against Delta on nonstop flights between Dallas and 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities. Fourth, demand for Dallas to Cincinnati flights has significantly increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and there might be enough demand for DAL-CVG nonstop service. Fifth, Delta Air Lines has never announced any plans to operate nonstops between CVG and DAL. Finally, there are customers in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex, in other parts of Texas, and in the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico who are loyal to Southwest Airlines and would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines that serve CVG if Southwest added DAL to CVG nonstop service.


I am sure there are plenty of places WN would love to fly to from Dallas but they don't have room for the flights. It is maxed out. So to add they have to subtract somewhere else. For now, I am going to assume they will fly CVG through a different city to Dallas. Like you said, two other airlines already fly to DFW so they probably have other adds to other large stations that make more sense from CVG first.
 
flyingfromcvg
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:44 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:35 pm

Not based on anything but a guess, but I'd venture to say we'll see WN add LAX and HOU before DAL. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised by LAS, OAK and SAN before DAL too.
 
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cvgComair
Posts: 893
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:48 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Image

They're ready for the big event. Gate area is still closed though. I'm guessing they'll open it tomorrow morning


I just went over to the gate and it's partially open, they are putting up a bunch of decorations, balloons, and signs. There were people working in there so I could take any pics.
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:48 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Image

They're ready for the big event. Gate area is still closed though. I'm guessing they'll open it tomorrow morning


So excited for the inaugural flight!
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:11 pm

flyingfromcvg wrote:
Not based on anything but a guess, but I'd venture to say we'll see WN add LAX and HOU before DAL. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised by LAS, OAK and SAN before DAL too.


Apparently BNA will be one of the first added
 
jplatts
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:37 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:

While gate space is at a premium, if they needed more gates, they have A3/5 and will be able to take over A1/2 once they are finished. They could also use A4 a few times a day, but there are other flights out of that gate. That would allow them to do about 36 flights a day, which gives them roughly 3.7 million passengers a year, so, they technically could achieve "hometown airline" status with the gate space available.

I am really interested to see how WN does at CVG and what DL's response is. Unlike CLE/STL/PIT/MEM/BNA, WN came into the market while the hub carrier was downsizing, whereas Delta has been stable in Cincinnati for almost three years and has shown no intentions of further downsizing, instead adding back capacity. This really is a scenario that has never taken place before. It's crazy to think CVG has survived 12 years since the first cuts and a decade after the NW/DL merger. I would have to think they see potential in Cincinnati if they are not continuing to downsize, even before it became a DL hub in 1984, Cincy has always been a large market in DL's system.

I am interested to see how G4/F9/DL/WN coexist. WN should come in this fall as #4 behind Delta, Frontier and American, so they will still have some leverage. WN already has significant leverage on both of its routes, they will give Delta a run for their money on pretty much any route they enter.

Chicago daily seats (ORD/MDW/MKE)
Southwest: 715 (5x/day)
United: 556 (7x/day)
American: 395 (7x/day)
Delta: 371 (6x/day)

Washington DC daily seats (DCA/IAD/BWI)
Delta: 437 (6x/day)
Southwest: 429 (3x/day)
United: 221 (3x/day)
American: 169 (3x/day)
Allegiant: 45 (2-3x/week)


Southwest already has nonstops from Dallas Love Field to the following 7 Delta Air Lines hub airports: Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York-LaGuardia, Salt Lake City, and Seattle. Southwest also has nonstop service between Dallas Love Field and Delta's Raleigh/Durham focus city. Delta does not currently operate nonstops between Dallas and Seattle, between Dallas and Boston, or between Dallas and Raleigh/Durham, but it does have nonstops from DFW to the other 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities that Southwest flies to nonstop from DAL, plus nonstops from DFW to Cincinnati, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and New York-JFK, plus nonstops from Dallas Love Field to its ATL hub.

Southwest might be able to successfully compete against Delta on DAL-CVG nonstop service if it adds DAL-CVG nonstop service for several reasons. First, some of the customers who travel between Cincinnati and Dallas are willing to travel on airlines other than American and Delta. Second, Southwest can provide connections to cities in Texas and New Mexico that are not served nonstop from CVG through DAL if it adds nonstop service from DAL to CVG. Third, Southwest already competes against Delta on nonstop flights between Dallas and 5 Delta Air Lines hub cities. Fourth, demand for Dallas to Cincinnati flights has significantly increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and there might be enough demand for DAL-CVG nonstop service. Fifth, Delta Air Lines has never announced any plans to operate nonstops between CVG and DAL. Finally, there are customers in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex, in other parts of Texas, and in the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico who are loyal to Southwest Airlines and would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines that serve CVG if Southwest added DAL to CVG nonstop service.


I am sure there are plenty of places WN would love to fly to from Dallas but they don't have room for the flights. It is maxed out. So to add they have to subtract somewhere else. For now, I am going to assume they will fly CVG through a different city to Dallas. Like you said, two other airlines already fly to DFW so they probably have other adds to other large stations that make more sense from CVG first.


Cincinnati is the 3rd largest market out of Dallas that does not have nonstop service out of Dallas Love Field, and the only markets larger than CVG that do not have nonstop service out of Dallas Love Field are Minneapolis/St. Paul and Cleveland. Southwest already has at least one nonstop out of DAL to the remaining markets out of Dallas that are bigger than CVG.

Southwest actually does more flights per gate per day out of its gates in Terminal 1 at LAX than it does at any of the other airports that it operates out of, including its home base at DAL, but additional gates in LAX's terminal 1 will be reopening by next year, and there will be more room for Southwest to expand at LAX after all of the gates at LAX's terminal 1 are reopened.

Southwest might possibly have room to serve MSP, CLE, and CVG nonstop from DAL, and Southwest might possibly even have room to do at least 190 flights a day out of 16 gates at DAL. A worst-case scenario of Southwest doing 240 flights a day out of 16 gates at DAL was even considered in the Dallas Love Field Terminal Area Redevelopment Program Study (TARPS) that was conducted almost 9 years ago. Southwest doing 190 flights a day out of 16 gates at DAL comes out to approximately 12 flights per day per gate, similar to what Southwest is actually doing currently in Terminal 1 at LAX with 126 domestic flights per day out of only 10 gates.
 
jplatts
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:07 am

Will Southwest or jetBlue end up adding CVG-BOS nonstop service? Frontier and Allegiant do not serve BOS, and Delta is currently the only airline to serve BOS nonstop from CVG. BOS is the largest market out of CVG that is only served nonstop out of CVG on a legacy airline.
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 269
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:12 am

jplatts wrote:
Will Southwest or jetBlue end up adding CVG-BOS nonstop service? Frontier and Allegiant do not serve BOS, and Delta is currently the only airline to serve BOS nonstop from CVG. BOS is the largest market out of CVG that is only served nonstop out of CVG on a legacy airline.


Yea but remember delta has 4 daily flights there and 2 of them are mainline.
 
flyingfromcvg
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:44 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:33 am

With P&G a large customer on the CVGBOS route and a valuable corporate account, I highly doubt DL will not pull out all the stops to defend it. Both CVG and BOS are mini hubs. Whoever tries it better be ready to fight.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:04 pm

Wow the inaugural was a crazy event! Everyone from the airport and a lot of people from southwest were there! I met Candace McGraw the CEO and I'm going to get a tour of the airport! I also met the COO of the airport! It was like a party.
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 269
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:34 pm

Just finished the trip. I will probably post a YouTube vid and give u guys the links if you want to see the press conferences and flight etc. Southwest is currently operating all 8 flights out of one gate A3. I am assuming they needed A5 in case of a delay but they are only actively using A3.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:17 am

DAY-based PSA is offering two confirmed tickets to any AA destination to new employees with a hire date on or before July 1, 2017.

Holy crap.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
jplatts
Posts: 581
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:16 am

cvgComair wrote:
As for WN, it looks like there is actually room on LAX, LAS, FLL, MCO, PHX, TPA, and RSW to add flights. A Saturday MSY also looks promising, like CMH/IND/RDU/PIT, the demand is there. Routes like HOU/DAL/STL/BNA/MCI are currently fully served (or not enough to fill a 737), but they could potentially grow these markets and take advantage of passengers that will connect in these cities.


Southwest adding CVG-LAS nonstop flights might make sense since nonstop flights between CVG and LAS would allow for connections to Southwest Airlines destinations west of Las Vegas that cannot easily be made with Southwest's CVG-MDW nonstop flights.

All of the current Southwest nonstop flights between two Delta Air Lines hub cities were acquired through airline mergers as the Southwest nonstop service to LAX, MSP, DTW, LGA, and BOS out of ATL all were inherited through the Southwest-AirTran merger and the Southwest nonstop service between LAX and SLC was inherited through the Southwest-Morris Air merger. The first Southwest nonstop route between two Delta Air Lines hub cities that wasn't acquired through an airline merger will likely be out of LAX, but I am not sure which Delta hub city Southwest will add a nonstop to next out of LAX since SEA and MSP are both also Delta hub cities that Southwest might possibly serve nonstop from LAX. Would CVG be the next Delta hub city that Southwest would go to nonstop from LAX, or would Southwest go to SEA or MSP nonstop from LAX before it adds LAX-CVG nonstop service?
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:08 pm

The insight is the president is coming in on wed.
 
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cvgComair
Posts: 893
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:01 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
The insight is the president is coming in on wed.


To CVG? They always have used LUK to come into Cincinnati due to safety concerns. That would be cool to see Air Force One at CVG!
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-700 (GoJet Airlines)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
daver3188
Posts: 17
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:29 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
DAY-based PSA is offering two confirmed tickets to any AA destination to new employees with a hire date on or before July 1, 2017.

Holy crap.


It is not just PSA, it is every AA mainline and regional employee, because of the "airline of the year" recognition.
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:47 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
The insight is the president is coming in on wed.


To CVG? They always have used LUK to come into Cincinnati due to safety concerns. That would be cool to see Air Force One at CVG!


Someone told me CVG. But another is CONVINCED he is coming to LUK on a 75. I have no idea.
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:02 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
The insight is the president is coming in on wed.


To CVG? They always have used LUK to come into Cincinnati due to safety concerns. That would be cool to see Air Force One at CVG!


Someone told me CVG. But another is CONVINCED he is coming to LUK on a 75. I have no idea.


We got an email at work today saying he would be coming in on Wednesday to CVG. It's really gonna mess with our operation.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:09 pm

In other news, Ultimate Air Shuttle is adding a second daily flight between LUK and MDW Monday thru Friday. They are gonna have a decent sized operation at LUK if they keep growing. I would love to get on with them so that I would have the opportunity to grow with them.
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