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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:22 am

cvgComair wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I posted this on another forum, pretty remarkable how far CVG has come in the last five years. Here is select west coast PDEW data from 2012 (before LCC service) to 2016:

City - 2012/2013/2014/2015/2016 –––– '12 to '16 % change
------------------------------------------------------------
LAS - 200/260/329/672/696 –––– +348%
LAX - 441/420/525/447/669 –––– +152%
DEN - 164/351/387/335/465 –––– +284%
SFO - 289/314/283/292/444 –––– +154%
PHX - 122/165/228/231/338 –––– +277%
SEA - 129/155/163/199/179 –––– +139%
SLC - 108/136/123/155/143 –––– +132%
SAN - 107/131/122/94/129 –––– +121%
PDX - 62/90/90/88/93 –––– +150%


Each of your percentages are 100% too high. They all show a growth but not as much you typed.


It depends on how you want to display the value change, I personally prefer this way when displaying passenger changes over time. For instance, LAS had 3.48 times (348%) the passengers in 2016 compared to 2012, whereas there was a 248% change. Since 200 is just under 1/4 of 696, I think it is a better way to present the data in this case. It is not really the % change between '12/'16, but the % comparison between '12/'16, not the best title, but I am not aware of the "official" term for this type of comparison.


That is fine and all but you displayed the data as a percentage of growth in each market. SEA had a growth of 50 people per day over five years. That is a growth of 39% from 129 people to 179. You go by the actual percentage of growth or loss. Not the multiplier of how you can find the final number.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:25 pm

Following brooklynchris13's example, here's a 7/17/2017 snapshot of CVG ops, I '*' the items I thought notable:

Delta-
BOS: 2x CRJ9, 2x 717
BDL: 1x CRJ7
JFK: 1x CRJ9
LGA: 4x CRJ9, 2x CRJ7
EWR: 1x CRJ9, 2x CRJ7
PHL: 3x CRJ200
DCA: 3x CRJ7, 1x 717
BWI: 2x CRJ200
RDU: 2x CRJ200
CLT: 3x CRJ200
FLL: 1x 738
RSW: 1x CRJ9
TPA: 1x 717
MCO: 2x MD88
ATL: 1x 757, 3x MD88, 4x 738
BNA: 1x CRJ9
DTW: 4x CRJ9, 1x CRJ7, 1x 717
ORD: 2x CRJ9, 2x CRJ200, 1x CRJ7
MKE: 1x CRJ200
MSP: 3x CRJ9, 1x CRJ7, 1x MD88
STL: 1x CRJ200, 1x CRJ7
MCI: 2x CRJ200
DFW: 2x CRJ9, 1x CRJ7
IAH: 2x CRJ9
XNA: 1x CRJ7
YYZ: 2x CRJ200
MEM: 1x CRJ9
DEN: 1x 717
SLC: 2x A320
LAX: 2x 738
SFO: 1x 739
SEA: 1x 739
CDG: 1x 767
*Total: 81

American-
JFK: 1x E145
LGA: 3x E145
PHL: 2x CRJ9, 1x, CRJ7, 3x E145
DCA: 1x CRJ7, 1x CRJ200, 1x E145
CLT: 7x CRJ9
*MIA: 1x E145
DFW: 2x E175, 2x MD80
ORD: 6x E145, 1x E175
Total: 32

United-
EWR: 3x E170, 3x E175
IAD: 1x CRJ7, 2x E175
ORD: 4x E175, 1x E170, 1x CRJ7, 1x A319
IAH: 2x E175, 1x E170, 1x CRJ7
DEN: 2x CRJ7
SFO: 1x A320
Total: 23

Air Canada-
YYZ: 3x CRJ200
Total: 3

Southwest-
BWI: 3x 737
MDW: 5x 737
Total: 8

Allegiant-
AUS: N/A, served TH/SU
BWI: N/A, served TH/SU
DEN: 1x A319
FLL: 1x A319
VPS: N/A, served TU/TH/SA/SU
JAX: 1x A319
LAS: 1x A319
EWR: 1x A319
MSY: N/A, served TH/SU
SFB: 1x A319
IWA: 1x A319
PVD: N/A, begins Nov. 17
PGD: 1x A319
SAV: 1x A319
PIE: 1x MD80
MYR: N/A, served TH/SA/SUN
SJU: N/A, returns Dec. 16
Total: 10

Frontier-
DEN: 1x A321, 1x A320
FLL: N/A, served TU/TH/SU
RSW: 1x A321
LAS: 1x A320
LAX: 1x A320
MSP: 1x A319
LGA: 1x A320
MCO: 1x A321, 1x A320
PHX: 1x A320
SAN: N/A, served TU/TH/SU
SFO: 1x A320
TPA: N/A, served TU/TH/SU
ATL: 1x A319
DFW: 1x A319
IAH: 1x A320
PHL: 1x A319
Total: 15

OneJet-
PIT: 2x Beechjet 400
Total: 2

Total: 174

Hope to see the trend continue of more non-DL carriers rotating in mainline aircraft. DL's number of daily departures is pretty meek, as is the frequency on some of the routes...lots of single daily or less-than-daily flights. I understand they have been upgauging, but 2x CRJ200 still nets more seats than a single CRJ7. Additionally, CVG-MIA appears to be a pretty weak market, surprising that AA is on 1x daily on the route...I believe it even used to be 2x daily.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:56 am

I've updated the CVG PPD spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I've added a few more quarters and have the percentage of YOY change for 2016 4Q compared to 2015 4Q.

The only markets that I could really see being added because the demand is there, or at least close, are as follows:
Portland, OR (93 PPD) - Probably not enough demand for daily service but I think a few times weekly could be doable.
San Antonio, TX (73 PPD) - Not enough demand for mainline but I think Delta could do pretty good on this route with a CRJ-700 daily.
Savannah, GA (54 PPD) - I was surprised by the demand for this during the Summer and Spring quarters. The PPD reached 100 daily in 2016 2Q. Most likely will never get added but I was surprised none the less.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:21 am

AirportRival wrote:
I've updated the CVG PPD spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I've added a few more quarters and have the percentage of YOY change for 2016 4Q compared to 2015 4Q.

The only markets that I could really see being added because the demand is there, or at least close, are as follows:
Portland, OR (93 PPD) - Probably not enough demand for daily service but I think a few times weekly could be doable.
San Antonio, TX (73 PPD) - Not enough demand for mainline but I think Delta could do pretty good on this route with a CRJ-700 daily.
Savannah, GA (54 PPD) - I was surprised by the demand for this during the Summer and Spring quarters. The PPD reached 100 daily in 2016 2Q. Most likely will never get added but I was surprised none the less.


I would hate to see PDX added by F9, because it would virtually mean that AS won't fly to CVG in the future, CVG already has service to decent service to SAN/SFO/SEA/LAX, and if PDX was added on F9, that would hurt the chances of AS in CVG even more
SAT: Could definately work for CRJ-700
SAV: Is operated by G4 already, unless you mean DL/F9
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:08 am

Midwestindy wrote:
SAV: Is operated by G4 already, unless you mean DL/F9


You are absolutely right. I completely forgot that G4 served Savannah. Feels like a stupid oversight in hindsight.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
flyingfromcvg
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:07 am

PDX-CVG is likely out of the range of the AS E75s, correct? Any 319s in the VX fleet?
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:42 pm

flyingfromcvg wrote:
PDX-CVG is likely out of the range of the AS E75s, correct? Any 319s in the VX fleet?


Alaska also has 10 Boeing 737-700 planes in its fleet, and could use of its 737-700 planes for a CVG-PDX nonstop if it has one available.
 
NoTime
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:22 pm

flyingfromcvg wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Here is a completely unfeasible and spectacularly bad plan for Ohio airports:
http://wksu.org/post/ohio-lawmaker-want ... s#stream/0


Spending $15B on two super hubs that no airline wants is dumb. If you're really about attracting new service, you can subsidize a bunch of routes you typically wouldn't get with $15B. My guess this is more about saying you're creating jobs and land deals for the "in crowd".


Exactly. The more I read about this "plan", the dumber it seems. I stick by my original theory that this entire thing is the result of two non-aviation guys getting together over a few beers and talking in really broad terms about what they think the state needs. (But, then again, isn't that what all politics is?)

This money would be much better spent a) subsidizing certain routes for each airport and b) improving the infrastructure in and around the existing airports. Then again, don't spend any money at all... let the markets dictate what they need.
 
flyingfromcvg
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:45 pm

NoTime wrote:
flyingfromcvg wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Here is a completely unfeasible and spectacularly bad plan for Ohio airports:
http://wksu.org/post/ohio-lawmaker-want ... s#stream/0


Spending $15B on two super hubs that no airline wants is dumb. If you're really about attracting new service, you can subsidize a bunch of routes you typically wouldn't get with $15B. My guess this is more about saying you're creating jobs and land deals for the "in crowd".


Exactly. The more I read about this "plan", the dumber it seems. I stick by my original theory that this entire thing is the result of two non-aviation guys getting together over a few beers and talking in really broad terms about what they think the state needs. (But, then again, isn't that what all politics is?)

This money would be much better spent a) subsidizing certain routes for each airport and b) improving the infrastructure in and around the existing airports. Then again, don't spend any money at all... let the markets dictate what they need.


I typically lean toward the "let the markets dictate" logic in most things. But when Cincinnati loses companies like Chiquita, Veritiv and Toyota in part due to lack of air service, the subsidizing conversation get a little more interesting with less black and white arguments.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:46 pm

I was at CVG yesterday and a surprising number of people were connecting at CVG to other destinations from the morning west coast flights. Here was the connection board for SFO-CVG:

Image

SEA/LAS/LAX-CVG had similar boards, but on those flights there were passengers also going to Baltimore, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Meyers, Memphis, Orlando, and Tampa as well. Pretty interesting that these flights are seeing quite a few connecting passengers.

Also, I took some pics of the new A1/A2 gate area, they put up a divider to block the passageway but it looks close to being done:

Image
Image
Image

Is there are plan to immediately use these gates or are they going to sit empty until another carrier (hopefully, come on B6!) comes to CVG? Also, lot's of concessions are going up/changing. I am excited for Blaze Pizza and I had it while in LA and it was really good, I can't wait to go there before my flights! Concourse B has this vending machine-like store where the Greaters was previously located, not sure what it is. There is a sandwhich-like shop opening next Spring where Charlie's Grilled Subs used to be. Wolfgang Puck and Burgers Bagels are now closed (I believe they were actually closed awhile ago). The far end of Concourse B could definitely see some love, Delta appears to have stopped using B26/27/28, all of the gate display boards were shut off and I have not seen any flights out of these gates for awhile. Concourse B could definitely see some more love by DL, but I think we will only see larger aircraft with lower frequency going forward. It is great to see we are not only ones that think DL is here to stay in Cincinnati (I see they sourced the background info from the history section I wrote on Wikipedia :) ): http://airlinegeeks.com/2017/06/14/the-death-and-rebirth-of-memphis-mem-and-cincinnati-cvg/
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 302
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:50 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I was at CVG yesterday and a surprising number of people were connecting at CVG to other destinations from the morning west coast flights. Here was the connection board for SFO-CVG:

Image

SEA/LAS/LAX-CVG had similar boards, but on those flights there were passengers also going to Baltimore, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Meyers, Memphis, Orlando, and Tampa as well. Pretty interesting that these flights are seeing quite a few connecting passengers.

Also, I took some pics of the new A1/A2 gate area, they put up a divider to block the passageway but it looks close to being done:

Image
Image
Image

Is there are plan to immediately use these gates or are they going to sit empty until another carrier (hopefully, come on B6!) comes to CVG? Also, lot's of concessions are going up/changing. I am excited for Blaze Pizza and I had it while in LA and it was really good, I can't wait to go there before my flights! Concourse B has this vending machine-like store where the Greaters was previously located, not sure what it is. There is a sandwhich-like shop opening next Spring where Charlie's Grilled Subs used to be. Wolfgang Puck and Burgers Bagels are now closed (I believe they were actually closed awhile ago). The far end of Concourse B could definitely see some love, Delta appears to have stopped using B26/27/28, all of the gate display boards were shut off and I have not seen any flights out of these gates for awhile. Concourse B could definitely see some more love by DL, but I think we will only see larger aircraft with lower frequency going forward. It is great to see we are not only ones that think DL is here to stay in Cincinnati (I see they sourced the background info from the history section I wrote on Wikipedia :) ): http://airlinegeeks.com/2017/06/14/the-death-and-rebirth-of-memphis-mem-and-cincinnati-cvg/


Great stuff
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 336
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:27 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I was at CVG yesterday and a surprising number of people were connecting at CVG to other destinations from the morning west coast flights. Here was the connection board for SFO-CVG:

Image

SEA/LAS/LAX-CVG had similar boards, but on those flights there were passengers also going to Baltimore, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Meyers, Memphis, Orlando, and Tampa as well. Pretty interesting that these flights are seeing quite a few connecting passengers.

Also, I took some pics of the new A1/A2 gate area, they put up a divider to block the passageway but it looks close to being done:

Image
Image
Image

Is there are plan to immediately use these gates or are they going to sit empty until another carrier (hopefully, come on B6!) comes to CVG? Also, lot's of concessions are going up/changing. I am excited for Blaze Pizza and I had it while in LA and it was really good, I can't wait to go there before my flights! Concourse B has this vending machine-like store where the Greaters was previously located, not sure what it is. There is a sandwhich-like shop opening next Spring where Charlie's Grilled Subs used to be. Wolfgang Puck and Burgers Bagels are now closed (I believe they were actually closed awhile ago). The far end of Concourse B could definitely see some love, Delta appears to have stopped using B26/27/28, all of the gate display boards were shut off and I have not seen any flights out of these gates for awhile. Concourse B could definitely see some more love by DL, but I think we will only see larger aircraft with lower frequency going forward. It is great to see we are not only ones that think DL is here to stay in Cincinnati (I see they sourced the background info from the history section I wrote on Wikipedia :) ): http://airlinegeeks.com/2017/06/14/the-death-and-rebirth-of-memphis-mem-and-cincinnati-cvg/


From what I've been told A1 and A2 are going to be overflow gates for now. Meaning any airline will be able to use them when needed. They are installing the jetbridge for A2 this week. Don't know if they will keep the barrier up until they finish the areas or until they have an airline that will need to use them.

In other news, I heard today that Southwest is starting to advertise for positions at CVG. They didn't post anything when they moved down here with all of the employees that transfered. I also heard that they have a waiting list of agents that have put in to transfer to CVG from other stations. If they are advertising for positions here then I'm going to assume that they are planning to add some flights relatively soon. Just a hunch though.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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Cvgspotter15
Posts: 302
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:33 am

AirportRival wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I was at CVG yesterday and a surprising number of people were connecting at CVG to other destinations from the morning west coast flights. Here was the connection board for SFO-CVG:

Image

SEA/LAS/LAX-CVG had similar boards, but on those flights there were passengers also going to Baltimore, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Meyers, Memphis, Orlando, and Tampa as well. Pretty interesting that these flights are seeing quite a few connecting passengers.

Also, I took some pics of the new A1/A2 gate area, they put up a divider to block the passageway but it looks close to being done:

Image
Image
Image

Is there are plan to immediately use these gates or are they going to sit empty until another carrier (hopefully, come on B6!) comes to CVG? Also, lot's of concessions are going up/changing. I am excited for Blaze Pizza and I had it while in LA and it was really good, I can't wait to go there before my flights! Concourse B has this vending machine-like store where the Greaters was previously located, not sure what it is. There is a sandwhich-like shop opening next Spring where Charlie's Grilled Subs used to be. Wolfgang Puck and Burgers Bagels are now closed (I believe they were actually closed awhile ago). The far end of Concourse B could definitely see some love, Delta appears to have stopped using B26/27/28, all of the gate display boards were shut off and I have not seen any flights out of these gates for awhile. Concourse B could definitely see some more love by DL, but I think we will only see larger aircraft with lower frequency going forward. It is great to see we are not only ones that think DL is here to stay in Cincinnati (I see they sourced the background info from the history section I wrote on Wikipedia :) ): http://airlinegeeks.com/2017/06/14/the-death-and-rebirth-of-memphis-mem-and-cincinnati-cvg/


From what I've been told A1 and A2 are going to be overflow gates for now. Meaning any airline will be able to use them when needed. They are installing the jetbridge for A2 this week. Don't know if they will keep the barrier up until they finish the areas or until they have an airline that will need to use them.

In other news, I heard today that Southwest is starting to advertise for positions at CVG. They didn't post anything when they moved down here with all of the employees that transfered. I also heard that they have a waiting list of agents that have put in to transfer to CVG from other stations. If they are advertising for positions here then I'm going to assume that they are planning to add some flights relatively soon. Just a hunch though.


June 22nd expansion?
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:14 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
June 22nd expansion?


I certainly would love to see it! According to some other who know more about WN, this is typically not a schedule release where a lot of new routes are announced, but the one after that usually has a lot of new routes.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:26 pm

Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.

The clear holes currently with high fares are Boston/Hartford, Raleigh/Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis, and Seattle.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
I've updated the CVG PPD spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I've added a few more quarters and have the percentage of YOY change for 2016 4Q compared to 2015 4Q.

The only markets that I could really see being added because the demand is there, or at least close, are as follows:
Portland, OR (93 PPD) - Probably not enough demand for daily service but I think a few times weekly could be doable.
San Antonio, TX (73 PPD) - Not enough demand for mainline but I think Delta could do pretty good on this route with a CRJ-700 daily.
Savannah, GA (54 PPD) - I was surprised by the demand for this during the Summer and Spring quarters. The PPD reached 100 daily in 2016 2Q. Most likely will never get added but I was surprised none the less.


I would hate to see PDX added by F9, because it would virtually mean that AS won't fly to CVG in the future, CVG already has service to decent service to SAN/SFO/SEA/LAX, and if PDX was added on F9, that would hurt the chances of AS in CVG even more
SAT: Could definately work for CRJ-700
SAV: Is operated by G4 already, unless you mean DL/F9


SAT is the largest U.S. city that is not served nonstop from CVG, and Southwest could actually do a 1-stop direct flight with no change of plane between CVG and SAT if it adds nonstop service out of CVG to STL, DAL, or HOU.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:50 am

jplatts wrote:
SAT is the largest U.S. city that is not served nonstop from CVG, and Southwest could actually do a 1-stop direct flight with no change of plane between CVG and SAT if it adds nonstop service out of CVG to STL, DAL, or HOU.


SAT seems like a stretch for WN, but very doable for an RJ which is why I can see DL moving on that route before WN. There isn't the PDEW to fill a 737, with regards to a 1-stop WN doesn't usually open up a destination by making the flight a 1-stop no plane change, and I believe WN only operates 1-stop no plane change flights on routes that already have non-stop service.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:31 am

Midwestindy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
SAT is the largest U.S. city that is not served nonstop from CVG, and Southwest could actually do a 1-stop direct flight with no change of plane between CVG and SAT if it adds nonstop service out of CVG to STL, DAL, or HOU.


SAT seems like a stretch for WN, but very doable for an RJ which is why I can see DL moving on that route before WN. There isn't the PDEW to fill a 737, with regards to a 1-stop WN doesn't usually open up a destination by making the flight a 1-stop no plane change, and I believe WN only operates 1-stop no plane change flights on routes that already have non-stop service.


WN has one stop no plane changes on routes it doesn't do nonstop. I have seen them multiple times. SJC-IND and SJC-STL are just a couple examples. I would think they would want to do them on routes that have a decent demand but just not enough for a nonstop. That way a fair amount of people can just stay on but at the stop they can pick up others.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:33 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
SAT is the largest U.S. city that is not served nonstop from CVG, and Southwest could actually do a 1-stop direct flight with no change of plane between CVG and SAT if it adds nonstop service out of CVG to STL, DAL, or HOU.


SAT seems like a stretch for WN, but very doable for an RJ which is why I can see DL moving on that route before WN. There isn't the PDEW to fill a 737, with regards to a 1-stop WN doesn't usually open up a destination by making the flight a 1-stop no plane change, and I believe WN only operates 1-stop no plane change flights on routes that already have non-stop service.


WN has one stop no plane changes on routes it doesn't do nonstop. I have seen them multiple times. SJC-IND and SJC-STL are just a couple examples. I would think they would want to do them on routes that have a decent demand but just not enough for a nonstop. That way a fair amount of people can just stay on but at the stop they can pick up others.


Okay you are right, but it isn't that common, however I still think WN would be more interested in other additions from CVG before SAT
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:05 pm

Even though SAT is a larger city, AUS has more unserved demand with 87 unserved seats per day, while SAT has 73. Both routes could fill a CR7/9 on DL, but I think WN has a lot more important routes to try at CVG first. I have to wonder what the profitability of CVG-SAT/AUS was for DL, since they were both cut fairly early in 2008. I think that the market has grown a lot since then and G4 on AUS has certainly brought the PDEW up (it is 129 for Q4 '16).
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

SAT seems like a stretch for WN, but very doable for an RJ which is why I can see DL moving on that route before WN. There isn't the PDEW to fill a 737, with regards to a 1-stop WN doesn't usually open up a destination by making the flight a 1-stop no plane change, and I believe WN only operates 1-stop no plane change flights on routes that already have non-stop service.


WN has one stop no plane changes on routes it doesn't do nonstop. I have seen them multiple times. SJC-IND and SJC-STL are just a couple examples. I would think they would want to do them on routes that have a decent demand but just not enough for a nonstop. That way a fair amount of people can just stay on but at the stop they can pick up others.


Okay you are right, but it isn't that common, however I still think WN would be more interested in other additions from CVG before SAT


I agree with this. If they are going to do a one stop, I doubt it would be to SAT.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:43 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

WN has one stop no plane changes on routes it doesn't do nonstop. I have seen them multiple times. SJC-IND and SJC-STL are just a couple examples. I would think they would want to do them on routes that have a decent demand but just not enough for a nonstop. That way a fair amount of people can just stay on but at the stop they can pick up others.


Okay you are right, but it isn't that common, however I still think WN would be more interested in other additions from CVG before SAT


I agree with this. If they are going to do a one stop, I doubt it would be to SAT.


There is business travel between SAT and CVG with San Antonio-based H-E-B doing business with various Cincinnati-based companies, including Procter & Gamble, and with San Antonio-based iHeartMedia owning a radio station in Cincinnati (WEBN). In addition, there are some tourists who travel from the Cincinnati area to San Antonio to go to tourist attractions in the San Antonio area, including the Alamo and San Antonio Riverwalk.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:25 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.

The clear holes currently with high fares are Boston/Hartford, Raleigh/Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis, and Seattle.


Are the fares actually high on Delta's nonstops between CVG and Kansas City? Kansas City is far enough west from CVG for either Southwest or Frontier to add a nonstop between CVG and MCI, and MCI is also one of 8 U.S. cities west of CVG with nonstop service out of CVG that does not see nonstop service out of CVG on airlines other than Delta. Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier in Kansas City, and there are Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region, including AMC Theaters, Applebee's, Associated Wholesale Grocers, HNTB, H&R Block, Hostess Brands, and Sprint. Southwest Airlines would also be able to provide connections to DAL, DEN, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it adds MCI-CVG nonstop service.

Southwest would probably do better on MCI-CVG nonstop service than Frontier would for several reasons. First, there is business travel from MCI to CVG by Kansas City-based businesses with many Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region. Second, some of the Kansas City-based business travelers would prefer to fly on Southwest over Delta or Frontier if Southwest adds nonstop service to CVG from MCI. Third, Southwest would be able to provide connections to and from DAL, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it added nonstop service to CVG from MCI, something that a Frontier CVG-MCI nonstop could not provide. Fourth, Kansas City is the 1st Midwestern city to be served by Southwest Airlines, and Southwest has been in Kansas City for over 35 years. Finally, Southwest adding MCI-CVG nonstop service would provide additional competition on the MCI-CVG route, which currently only sees nonstop service on Delta.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:01 am

cvgComair wrote:
Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.


Southwest is able to successfully compete against Delta on nonstop service out of its home base at Dallas Love Field to Atlanta, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York-LaGuardia, and Salt Lake City, all of which are hub airports for Delta Air Lines, and Southwest would be able to successfully compete against Delta on CVG to DAL nonstop service if it adds nonstop service from CVG to DAL. Southwest would have competitive advantages over Delta on the CVG to DAL route if it adds nonstop service to DAL out of CVG, including Southwest having its home base at DAL, no fees for 1st and 2nd checked bags, increasing demand for Cincinnati to Dallas flights after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, a customer base in the DFW area that is loyal to Southwest and would prefer Southwest over Delta if Southwest adds nonstop service to CVG out of DAL, DAL being closer to downtown Dallas than DFW is, and access to 3 destinations in the West Texas region that are not even served by Delta (Amarillo, Lubbock, and Midland/Odessa). In addition, Delta has never considered serving Dallas Love Field nonstop from CVG.

I was on a Frontier flight from DFW to CVG on Friday that was nearly full, and there were even passengers on that flight that were connecting at CVG onto a Frontier flight to Philadelphia, even though Philadelphia is served nonstop out of both Dallas airports on other airlines (with AA and Spirit serving PHL nonstop out of DFW and with Southwest serving PHL nonstop out of DAL). The demand might possibly be there for Southwest to add daily nonstop service to DAL out of CVG, especially since Southwest can provide customers with connections through DAL to 6 Texas destinations that do not have daily nonstop service out of CVG (Amarillo, Austin, El Paso, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, and San Antonio) if it adds CVG-DAL nonstop service. Southwest might be able to easily fill DAL to CVG nonstop flights on days that Frontier does not operate CVG-DFW nonstop flights if Southwest adds DAL-CVG nonstop service.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:51 am

Midwestindy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
SAT is the largest U.S. city that is not served nonstop from CVG, and Southwest could actually do a 1-stop direct flight with no change of plane between CVG and SAT if it adds nonstop service out of CVG to STL, DAL, or HOU.


SAT seems like a stretch for WN, but very doable for an RJ which is why I can see DL moving on that route before WN. There isn't the PDEW to fill a 737, with regards to a 1-stop WN doesn't usually open up a destination by making the flight a 1-stop no plane change, and I believe WN only operates 1-stop no plane change flights on routes that already have non-stop service.


Southwest actually does 1-stop direct flights from its home base at Dallas Love Field to destinations that are not served nonstop from Dallas Love Field, including Cleveland, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and Hartford. Southwest will even be operating a 1-stop direct flight in the early morning from Cincinnati to Dallas Love Field with a stop at Chicago Midway starting on November 6th.
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:26 am

jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.

The clear holes currently with high fares are Boston/Hartford, Raleigh/Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis, and Seattle.


Are the fares actually high on Delta's nonstops between CVG and Kansas City? Kansas City is far enough west from CVG for either Southwest or Frontier to add a nonstop between CVG and MCI, and MCI is also one of 8 U.S. cities west of CVG with nonstop service out of CVG that does not see nonstop service out of CVG on airlines other than Delta. Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier in Kansas City, and there are Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region, including AMC Theaters, Applebee's, Associated Wholesale Grocers, HNTB, H&R Block, Hostess Brands, and Sprint. Southwest Airlines would also be able to provide connections to DAL, DEN, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it adds MCI-CVG nonstop service.

Southwest would probably do better on MCI-CVG nonstop service than Frontier would for several reasons. First, there is business travel from MCI to CVG by Kansas City-based businesses with many Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region. Second, some of the Kansas City-based business travelers would prefer to fly on Southwest over Delta or Frontier if Southwest adds nonstop service to CVG from MCI. Third, Southwest would be able to provide connections to and from DAL, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it added nonstop service to CVG from MCI, something that a Frontier CVG-MCI nonstop could not provide. Fourth, Kansas City is the 1st Midwestern city to be served by Southwest Airlines, and Southwest has been in Kansas City for over 35 years. Finally, Southwest adding MCI-CVG nonstop service would provide additional competition on the MCI-CVG route, which currently only sees nonstop service on Delta.


Southwest has said they are no longer going to add more connecting traffic through MCI unless they build a new terminal. I don't even think Southwest will expand there much until that happens. The terminal there is horrible for connections and most people try to avoid them there. Kansas City doesn't even have a nonstop to CLE, CMH, or PIT, so I don't Southwest adding MCI-CVG anytime soon. They will focus on markets with good connections for CVG in the near term. I would think BNA/STL/DEN/PHX/LAS/DAL/HOU would all have a shot before MCI.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:42 am

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.

The clear holes currently with high fares are Boston/Hartford, Raleigh/Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis, and Seattle.


Are the fares actually high on Delta's nonstops between CVG and Kansas City? Kansas City is far enough west from CVG for either Southwest or Frontier to add a nonstop between CVG and MCI, and MCI is also one of 8 U.S. cities west of CVG with nonstop service out of CVG that does not see nonstop service out of CVG on airlines other than Delta. Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier in Kansas City, and there are Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region, including AMC Theaters, Applebee's, Associated Wholesale Grocers, HNTB, H&R Block, Hostess Brands, and Sprint. Southwest Airlines would also be able to provide connections to DAL, DEN, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it adds MCI-CVG nonstop service.

Southwest would probably do better on MCI-CVG nonstop service than Frontier would for several reasons. First, there is business travel from MCI to CVG by Kansas City-based businesses with many Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region. Second, some of the Kansas City-based business travelers would prefer to fly on Southwest over Delta or Frontier if Southwest adds nonstop service to CVG from MCI. Third, Southwest would be able to provide connections to and from DAL, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it added nonstop service to CVG from MCI, something that a Frontier CVG-MCI nonstop could not provide. Fourth, Kansas City is the 1st Midwestern city to be served by Southwest Airlines, and Southwest has been in Kansas City for over 35 years. Finally, Southwest adding MCI-CVG nonstop service would provide additional competition on the MCI-CVG route, which currently only sees nonstop service on Delta.


Southwest has said they are no longer going to add more connecting traffic through MCI unless they build a new terminal. I don't even think Southwest will expand there much until that happens. The terminal there is horrible for connections and most people try to avoid them there. Kansas City doesn't even have a nonstop to CLE, CMH, or PIT, so I don't Southwest adding MCI-CVG anytime soon. They will focus on markets with good connections for CVG in the near term. I would think BNA/STL/DEN/PHX/LAS/DAL/HOU would all have a shot before MCI.


Southwest currently does more nonstops out of MCI to MDW, DAL, DEN, MKE, and BNA than it does out of STL. Southwest also has nonstops out of MCI to ABQ and IND, both of which do not have currently have nonstop service out of STL. Southwest had recently added nonstop service to AUS, LGA, and SAT out of MCI and year-round nonstop service to SEA out of MCI.

While most Dallas-area customers no longer make connections through MCI after the repeal of the Wright Amendment on October 13, 2014, there are still some Dallas-area customers who connect through MCI on Southwest to get to and from MSP, MKE, and IND with MSP not being served nonstop out of DAL, with MKE seeing only 1 daily nonstop out of DAL and only 1 daily nonstop out of STL, and with IND seeing only 1 daily nonstop out of DAL and no nonstop service out of STL. Some of the Cincinnati-area travelers who traveled on Southwest out of IND did make connections at MCI to get to DAL back when the Wright Amendment prevented Southwest from serving IND or CVG nonstop from DAL and back when fares on CVG-DFW nonstops were high.

CLE, CMH, and PIT are all far enough east of STL for Southwest to serve these cities nonstop from STL. Southwest does not currently serve IND and SDF nonstop from STL, but both of these destinations are within 260 miles of STL. CVG is 304 miles east of STL, and is possibly far enough east for Southwest to serve nonstop from STL as Southwest has nonstops from STL to MDW, DSM, MCI, LIT, and BNA, all of which are closer to STL than CVG is.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:32 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Interesting report on the impact WN is already having on fares: http://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/southwest-airlines-swa-sparking-new-fare-wars-in-cincinnati?page=1. I would like to point out that its not just between DL and WN, but G4/AA/F9/UA are also getting in on the action. Fares to New York/Newark, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Orlando, Fort Meyers, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Las Vegas, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Destin, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and Baltimore have all dipped under $100 one-way.

The clear holes currently with high fares are Boston/Hartford, Raleigh/Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis, and Seattle.


Are the fares actually high on Delta's nonstops between CVG and Kansas City? Kansas City is far enough west from CVG for either Southwest or Frontier to add a nonstop between CVG and MCI, and MCI is also one of 8 U.S. cities west of CVG with nonstop service out of CVG that does not see nonstop service out of CVG on airlines other than Delta. Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier in Kansas City, and there are Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region, including AMC Theaters, Applebee's, Associated Wholesale Grocers, HNTB, H&R Block, Hostess Brands, and Sprint. Southwest Airlines would also be able to provide connections to DAL, DEN, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it adds MCI-CVG nonstop service.

Southwest would probably do better on MCI-CVG nonstop service than Frontier would for several reasons. First, there is business travel from MCI to CVG by Kansas City-based businesses with many Kansas City-based businesses that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region. Second, some of the Kansas City-based business travelers would prefer to fly on Southwest over Delta or Frontier if Southwest adds nonstop service to CVG from MCI. Third, Southwest would be able to provide connections to and from DAL, LAS, and LAX through MCI if it added nonstop service to CVG from MCI, something that a Frontier CVG-MCI nonstop could not provide. Fourth, Kansas City is the 1st Midwestern city to be served by Southwest Airlines, and Southwest has been in Kansas City for over 35 years. Finally, Southwest adding MCI-CVG nonstop service would provide additional competition on the MCI-CVG route, which currently only sees nonstop service on Delta.


Southwest has said they are no longer going to add more connecting traffic through MCI unless they build a new terminal. I don't even think Southwest will expand there much until that happens. The terminal there is horrible for connections and most people try to avoid them there. Kansas City doesn't even have a nonstop to CLE, CMH, or PIT, so I don't Southwest adding MCI-CVG anytime soon. They will focus on markets with good connections for CVG in the near term. I would think BNA/STL/DEN/PHX/LAS/DAL/HOU would all have a shot before MCI.


Delta even did 6 daily nonstops between MCI and CVG 15 years ago, with 3 of these 6 daily nonstops being on Delta MD-88 planes. Delta now only does MCI-CVG nonstops on weekdays and Sundays and is down to only 2 daily nonstops between MCI and CVG on weekdays and only 1 daily nonstop to CVG on Sundays. There is no easy way to get between MCI and CVG on Saturdays since the only options to get between MCI and CVG on Saturdays is to either connect through ORD on AA or UA, through MDW on WN, or through DTW or ATL on DL, and all of these connecting options are out of the way for travel between MCI and CVG. In addition, Southwest has added nonstop service to 3 additional Delta hub cities (Atlanta, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and New York-LaGuardia) out of MCI in the last 4 years. There might be enough demand for Southwest to do nonstop service between MCI and CVG with Delta having made significant cuts on MCI-CVG nonstop service, with Southwest adding nonstop service to additional Delta hub cities out of MCI during the last 5 years, with Delta only doing MCI-CVG nonstop service during 6 days of the week, and with many Kansas City-based corporations that do business in the Cincinnati tri-state region.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:08 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-qhViEhQ28&t=2s

This is my experience of the southwest inaugural. Feel free to watch
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:35 pm

jplatts wrote:

Southwest currently does more nonstops out of MCI to MDW, DAL, DEN, MKE, and BNA than it does out of STL. Southwest also has nonstops out of MCI to ABQ and IND, both of which do not have currently have nonstop service out of STL. Southwest had recently added nonstop service to AUS, LGA, and SAT out of MCI and year-round nonstop service to SEA out of MCI.


I highly doubt many people at CVG fly to IND, let alone would fly though MCI to get there. CVG already has 5 daily to MDW so they won't be connecting through MCI to go to MDW either. DEN/MKE/BNA have the same amount of daily flights from MCI/STL in the newest update. There isn't anywhere you can fly 1 stop through MCI that you can't fly one stop from MDW for CVG people. STL has DSM, LIT, ICT, TUL that MDW doesn't have. MCI doesn't have any of those plus OKC, OMA, SFO, ECP.

Either way Southwest saying they are no longer adding connection traffic to MCI still stands. If they add CVG-MCI it will only be if O&D traffic can fill most of it. I still think CVG will add stations that are places that Southwest wants passengers to connect through, until CVG is built up more.

I think the next 4 stations for CVG should be BNA/DAL/STL/and one of DEN/PHX/LAS (I am leaving out FL locations because it seems like CVG already has a bunch of those). If those are added then almost the entire USA map will be one stop for CVG if the timing is done right.
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:36 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-qhViEhQ28&t=2s

This is my experience of the southwest inaugural. Feel free to watch


cool video thanks for sharing.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:05 pm

I was connected through MCI this week on STL-MCI-IND, so WN does run connections through MCI, however WN plans to limit the amount of connections through MCI until MCI fixes the terminal, therefore MCI is probably less likely than the others.

I think OAK/PHX/FLL/TPA/DAL/HOU/STL/RSW/BNA/LAS/MSY are likely within the first 1-5 years. But there are also some high competition routes like DEN/ATL/BOS/EWR/e.t.c that WN also likes to operate to irritate the legacies. Plus, WN doesn't have to worry about competition because they can easily dominate G4 in most nonstop markets
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:15 pm

I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:30 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.


Exactly look at the airports around CVG. For example with Allegiant Cleveland and Lexington have similiar routes to CVG and IND has similar routes to CVG as well.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:32 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Either way Southwest saying they are no longer adding connection traffic to MCI still stands. If they add CVG-MCI it will only be if O&D traffic can fill most of it. I still think CVG will add stations that are places that Southwest wants passengers to connect through, until CVG is built up more.


Southwest does have daily nonstop service to ABQ from MCI, but does not currently have nonstop service to ABQ from STL. ABQ is no longer served nonstop from CVG, even though Delta did 2 daily nonstops between CVG and ABQ 15 years ago. Southwest has nonstops to ABQ from MDW, which also has service to CVG, and from DAL, HOU, and DEN. Southwest can send connecting traffic between CVG and ABQ through MDW, and Southwest would be able to provide connections through DAL, HOU, and DEN to ABQ if Southwest adds nonstop service to at least one of these destinations from CVG.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:24 am

jplatts wrote:
I was on a Delta flight from Cincinnati to DFW today, and the Delta flight that I was on today was full. There might possibly be enough demand for Delta to add mainline service from CVG to DFW, or for Frontier to do daily nonstops between CVG and DFW, or for Southwest to do daily nonstops between CVG and DAL.


I speak to a flight attendant frequently on CVG-ATL and he says it is always full. I know they just added an 8th but they could possibly add a 9th.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:25 am

I was on a Delta flight from Cincinnati to DFW today, and the Delta flight that I was on today was full. There might possibly be enough demand for Delta to add mainline service from CVG to DFW, or for Frontier to do daily nonstops between CVG and DFW, or for Southwest to do daily nonstops between CVG and DAL.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:56 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I was on a Delta flight from Cincinnati to DFW today, and the Delta flight that I was on today was full. There might possibly be enough demand for Delta to add mainline service from CVG to DFW, or for Frontier to do daily nonstops between CVG and DFW, or for Southwest to do daily nonstops between CVG and DAL.


I speak to a flight attendant frequently on CVG-ATL and he says it is always full. I know they just added an 8th but they could possibly add a 9th.


Southwest actually does serve ATL and even has nonstop service from Delta's main ATL hub to Delta's hubs in Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Detroit, and New York-LaGuardia. Southwest could possibly add ATL to CVG nonstop service in the future, even though I expect Southwest to add nonstops from CVG to non-Delta-hub destinations before it adds CVG-ATL nonstop service and even though I do not expect Southwest to add CVG-ATL nonstop service right away.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:00 am

DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.
That's ambitious. I think it will look more like CLE.
 
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knope2001
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:01 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest has said they are no longer going to add more connecting traffic through MCI unless they build a new terminal. I don't even think Southwest will expand there much until that happens. The terminal there is horrible for connections and most people try to avoid them there. Kansas City doesn't even have a nonstop to CLE, CMH, or PIT, so I don't Southwest adding MCI-CVG anytime soon. They will focus on markets with good connections for CVG in the near term. I would think BNA/STL/DEN/PHX/LAS/DAL/HOU would all have a shot before MCI.


Out of curiosity is there anything in writing where Southwest said this? I believe Southwest is in favor of the new terminal, and in the discussion about the new terminal there has been all sorts of conjecture and speculation about a new terminal bringing a hub or that Southwest would not have built the connecting hub at STL that they have if Kansas City had a better terminal. All those points are quite debatable. Has Southwest actually said anything of the sort about avoiding new connecting flow through MCI? In the past handful of years they have added the ex-AirTran 30's gates, and the external connector was built to link those gates with the previously-existing Southwest gate complex.

I don't disagree that the tight quarters at KCI make crowding a problem, the amenities behind security are thin, and restrooms kinda pathetic. But has Southwest truly said their Kansas City flying is capped due to the terminal, and a new one would lift that cap?
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:37 am

DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.


Southwest does not need CMH to MCI nonstop service for connections since the east coast destinations that Southwest flies to nonstop from CMH are already served nonstop from MCI and since the connections from CMH to Southwest's Texas destinations and Southwest's destinations west of the Midwest can be made elsewhere. Southwest can add extra nonstops from CMH to STL, DEN, PHX, LAS, or OAK if the extra nonstops are needed for connections to destinations west of the Midwest. In addition, connections from MCI to east coast destinations on Southwest can be done at STL, MDW, IND, BWI, BNA, or ATL.

Is there enough O&D demand between CMH and MCI for Southwest to add nonstop service from CMH to MCI? CMH and MCI are both located in major Midwestern cities where Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier, and there are many major corporations headquartered in Kansas City that do business in Columbus along with many major corporations headquartered in Columbus that do business in Kansas City. There is business travel between CMH and MCI, even though there is no nonstop service between CMH and MCI.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:35 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
I speak to a flight attendant frequently on CVG-ATL and he says it is always full. I know they just added an 8th but they could possibly add a 9th.


I was on the route a few days ago and the plane was packed, however, I noticed that the 8th daily flight is not extended into 2018. They have been putting more 737's on the route so capacity is still increasing.

ATL is so crowded though, I would rather they add more connectivity to other hubs, especially SLC, which has seen a decrease in seats recently. I could never figure out why SLC seems to be doing so bad, DL is only running 1x/day in the late winter/early spring, however I have found the flights very full at all times of the year. I hope it goes to 3x when the CSeries come in, I can not tell you how many times I have had to do CVG-ATL-SLC-XXX recently. SEA is getting to be the same way, I have done CVG-MSP/SLC-SEA-XXX multiple times, I don't believe there is not enough hub traffic for a nonstop CVG-SEA year-round, the Summer flights always have >90% LF's.

I would love to see F9 on CVG-SLC/SEA, which I would think would encourage DL to increase capacity on both routes.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:24 am

cledaybuck wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.
That's ambitious. I think it will look more like CLE.


It might look a lot more like CLE given they're dealing with DL, G4, and F9, and are the smallest of the four locally. CMH would be an example of the absolute top-end they might expect, with some local additions or subtractions.

If you create a cursory list based off the destinations WN serves from both CMH and CLE, you get ATL, BWI, MDW, DEN, LAS, BNA, PHX, STL, MCO. Have fun, CVG!

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.


Exactly look at the airports around CVG. For example with Allegiant Cleveland and Lexington have similiar routes to CVG and IND has similar routes to CVG as well.


G4 seemed to open some of their newer Southern markets with the Midwest in mind. JAX and MSY come to mind right away- all seemed to have a combination of CVG/IND/PIT/LCK right out of the gate and got the others later.

jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I would use CMH as a model for what CVG's service might look like with WN.

CMH-MCI hasn't happened yet.


Southwest does not need CMH to MCI nonstop service for connections since the east coast destinations that Southwest flies to nonstop from CMH are already served nonstop from MCI and since the connections from CMH to Southwest's Texas destinations and Southwest's destinations west of the Midwest can be made elsewhere. Southwest can add extra nonstops from CMH to STL, DEN, PHX, LAS, or OAK if the extra nonstops are needed for connections to destinations west of the Midwest. In addition, connections from MCI to east coast destinations on Southwest can be done at STL, MDW, IND, BWI, BNA, or ATL.

Is there enough O&D demand between CMH and MCI for Southwest to add nonstop service from CMH to MCI? CMH and MCI are both located in major Midwestern cities where Southwest Airlines is the dominant carrier, and there are many major corporations headquartered in Kansas City that do business in Columbus along with many major corporations headquartered in Columbus that do business in Kansas City. There is business travel between CMH and MCI, even though there is no nonstop service between CMH and MCI.


YX (later F9) ran E190s on CMH-MCI, which continued to SEA or SFO and fed connections on to the west coast. DL briefly had CMH-MCI on CRJs after that. If you have enough O&D, combined with enough people who might be routed through MCI with connections...
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:52 am

knope2001 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest has said they are no longer going to add more connecting traffic through MCI unless they build a new terminal. I don't even think Southwest will expand there much until that happens. The terminal there is horrible for connections and most people try to avoid them there. Kansas City doesn't even have a nonstop to CLE, CMH, or PIT, so I don't Southwest adding MCI-CVG anytime soon. They will focus on markets with good connections for CVG in the near term. I would think BNA/STL/DEN/PHX/LAS/DAL/HOU would all have a shot before MCI.


Out of curiosity is there anything in writing where Southwest said this? I believe Southwest is in favor of the new terminal, and in the discussion about the new terminal there has been all sorts of conjecture and speculation about a new terminal bringing a hub or that Southwest would not have built the connecting hub at STL that they have if Kansas City had a better terminal. All those points are quite debatable. Has Southwest actually said anything of the sort about avoiding new connecting flow through MCI? In the past handful of years they have added the ex-AirTran 30's gates, and the external connector was built to link those gates with the previously-existing Southwest gate complex.

I don't disagree that the tight quarters at KCI make crowding a problem, the amenities behind security are thin, and restrooms kinda pathetic. But has Southwest truly said their Kansas City flying is capped due to the terminal, and a new one would lift that cap?



http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... 55692.html

“Southwest purposely does not connect passengers through MCI (KCI) like we do at St. Louis,” Southwest director of airport affairs Steve Sisneros told the City Council. “We purposely throttle down MCI because the connecting experience is so bad.”

He said Southwest is still committed to Kansas City, but no big expansions are planned, given the airport’s constraints.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 97439.html

Justin Meyer, deputy aviation director for air service, said he is talking with Southwest about adding nonstop flights to Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburgh and Cleveland, but the airline is concerned with small local market size. He said a single terminal that allowed for a better connecting experience could generate the passenger loads to add those flights, similar to what’s available in St. Louis.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:44 pm

DeltaRules wrote:

If you create a cursory list based off the destinations WN serves from both CMH and CLE, you get ATL, BWI, MDW, DEN, LAS, BNA, PHX, STL, MCO. Have fun, CVG!
That looks about right, although I think ATL and BNA are less likely at CVG. I would say HOU and FLL are also future possibilities if WN is looking to build feed for international op's there.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
YX (later F9) ran E190s on CMH-MCI, which continued to SEA or SFO and fed connections on to the west coast. DL briefly had CMH-MCI on CRJs after that. If you have enough O&D, combined with enough people who might be routed through MCI with connections...


Skybus Airlines (SX) also had nonstop service to MCI out of CMH prior to going out of business on April 5, 2008.
 
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knope2001
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:10 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... 55692.html

“Southwest purposely does not connect passengers through MCI (KCI) like we do at St. Louis,” Southwest director of airport affairs Steve Sisneros told the City Council. “We purposely throttle down MCI because the connecting experience is so bad.”

He said Southwest is still committed to Kansas City, but no big expansions are planned, given the airport’s constraints.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 97439.html

Justin Meyer, deputy aviation director for air service, said he is talking with Southwest about adding nonstop flights to Raleigh-Durham, Pittsburgh and Cleveland, but the airline is concerned with small local market size. He said a single terminal that allowed for a better connecting experience could generate the passenger loads to add those flights, similar to what’s available in St. Louis.


Thanks -- I appreciate you digging these up!
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:51 pm

jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
YX (later F9) ran E190s on CMH-MCI, which continued to SEA or SFO and fed connections on to the west coast. DL briefly had CMH-MCI on CRJs after that. If you have enough O&D, combined with enough people who might be routed through MCI with connections...


Skybus Airlines (SX) also had nonstop service to MCI out of CMH prior to going out of business on April 5, 2008.


I'd forgotten about Skybus operating it. I'd even considered taking a joyride to MCI with them. So yeah, there are three airlines.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:06 pm

May numbers for CVG are in. Pax traffic up 9.11% in May, and up 10.27% for the year so far.

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