rolo987
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:12 am

Comair At Atlanta?

Sun Feb 10, 2002 12:15 am

Why are there Comair flights into Atlanta? Shouldn't they be ASA flights? I know that ABE-ATL is on Comair. Why?
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: Comair At Atlanta?

Sun Feb 10, 2002 1:06 am

Comair also does ATL-MDT 3 times a day. On March 18th Comair will start ATL-CHO and ATL-IND. Then on May 16th Comair will start ATL-AVP.

Why? You ask.

Because Delta doesn't want one of their hubs (ie. ATL) to be held hostage by one of their regionals. They learned their lesson during the Comair strike last year. Comair controlled 99.9% of the regional feed out of CVG. When Comair went on strike, CVG was loosing a lot of money. Because of "struck work" rules within ALPA, Delta couldn't put ASA or ACJet into CVG. Their pilots would refuse to fly these routes as they were Comair routes and were considered struck work by ALPA. Delta had their hands tied.

Therefore, Delta has started to intermingle the Connection carriers. ACA has started service out of CVG. This week they announced service to TOL, ALB, and SBN. There is a lot of intermingleing in DFW. Comair is serving IND, CRP, and soon will be doing SAT and RDU out of DFW. Look for Comair to do more flying out of DFW as the year progresses. Skywest is also picking up a lot of flying out of DFW. Heck, they fly all the way to GSO!!! What is "west" about that Sky"west?"

Another reason that Delta is trying to mix the Connection carriers is for leverage. The Connection carrier's leverage is severely limited if they don't have a strangle-hold on one of Delta's hubs. And ASA's pilot contract is ammendable in September. Seeing that it takes a few years to settle a contract, Delta has plenty of time to mix in ACA, Comair, and Skywest into ASA's backyard of ATL and DFW. This is how the game is played in todays market. Only time will tell what the Connection carriers pilots have learned to counter this.

Hope this helps.

RJ
 
rolo987
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:12 am

RE: Comair At Atlanta?

Sun Feb 10, 2002 1:33 am

Thanks for the information. But can I ask where you found that Comair was starting service from AVP-ATL?
 
sfointern
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

RE: Comair At Atlanta?

Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:11 am

In light of the crippling effects of the Comair strike, DL decided that it didn't want to rely on just one Connectino carrier at each hub. This is why you see:

  • ASA, Comair, and SkyWest in DFW
  • ACA and Comair in CVG
  • Comair and ASA in ATL
  •  
    RJ
    Posts: 192
    Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:35 am

    Here is the link to the AVP service:

    http://www.comair.com/news/index.html?id=140

    Happy flying!!!

    RJ
     
    ATL2CDG
    Posts: 277
    Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:13 am

    More Realistic

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:40 am

    While the above mentioned reasons do have some merit, there is another, more practical reason behind the "intrusion" of other DCI carriers into ASA's "domain."

    Delta/ASA/DCI are committed to as large a jet fleet as possible and serving as many destinations with all jet service as feasible. As such, ASA's Brasilia (EMB-120) fleet is slowly (or actually, quite quickly) being retired. These former (and soon to be former) E120 routes (ABY, FAY, BQK, CRW, EVV, etc) are being covered by new jets - jets that normally would be used for expansion to new destinations. Until the E120 fleet is reduced to the level desired, you will continue to see some new jets being used to replace the props rather than service new cities. At that time, the new jets will be used instead for expansion. Until that time, we will see other DCI carriers (Comair, Skywest and maybe one day ACA) being used to suppliment ASA service in ATL to "new" destinations.

    Well, then why is ACA moving in on Comair in CVG? Well, the vast majority of cities ACA is servicing from CVG also have ACA service to JFK, LGA, and BOS. Since ACA already serves these cities from "their" northern hubs and some trips into CVG do not require 50 seats (ie Comair's CRJs), DCI is using ACA to suppliment Comair so that Comair can in turn suppliment ASA in ATL and DFW.

    Skywest's DFW expansion is simple. United Express, Inc. reduced their orders for Skywest CRJ service on the west coast and as a result, Skywest had a surplus of planes, pilots and flight attendants. Delta needs the attentional support in their DFW hub (for both replacing ASA props AND unprofitable Delta mainline routes) and requested Skywest to expand in DFW - Skywest was smart and accepted.

    While many pilots would like to think that Delta brass want to screw them over as much as possible, this is not hardly the case. Mullin and his cohorts LOVE DCI and their regional jets, but are going to use the various bodies effectively. Strike protection is a cause for concern, but does NOT dictate operations. Simple economics, company capacity and other more placid variables determine proportionment and use of assets.

    In any case, I wish my co-workers at ASA the best of luck in their forthcoming negociations, but I would also pray that they keep calm, civil heads and be more realistic in their assumptions. This isn't war - it's business.
    Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
     
    Hoffa
    Posts: 946
    Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:45 am

    The bottom line is that an ASA strike is going to cripple ATL and the Southeast USA no matter how you look at it. There is no way ACJet, Comair or Skywest are going to ramp up to ASA levels out of ATL no matter how many years headstart management has.

    Its all a convenient fiction anyway...Comair and ASA are now both wholly-owned by Delta itself so they can't really compete with each other in any real sense.
     
    777-200
    Posts: 959
    Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 11:11 pm

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 4:50 am

    Yeah i saw a ASA 328jet at CVG Yesterday from ATL
    Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy
     
    ATL2CDG
    Posts: 277
    Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:13 am

    I Don't Think So.

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:31 am

    1. ASA doesn't operate 328Jets.

    2. ASA doesn't operate any flights at CVG.

    3. There is no regional jet service at all between ATL and CVG.
    Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
     
    FlyPNS1
    Posts: 5260
    Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:35 am

    Of course, the bigger question is what cities will DL have to stop serving when DCI hits the caps? Given the rapid growth of DCI and the stagnation of DL mainline, the caps are going to be hit. Then, DL's gonna end up like AA, pulling out of smaller markets to allow Eagle to expand in others.
     
    ATL2CDG
    Posts: 277
    Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:13 am

    DL Caps

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:38 am

    The caps have already been surpassed - by over 2%. DALPA is grieving. Delta is stating "force majeur." When caps are met, DL doesn't cut. Either DL grows or DCI cuts. Apparently you don't understand what caps are.
    Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
     
    RJ
    Posts: 192
    Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:41 am

    ATL2CDG,

    Although you make a good point about distributing DCI assest to best serve Delta, you cannot ignore that fact that Delta dosn't want to have the same hostage situation happen to them again. Labor and leverage are a part of moving the assests of DCI around. Lets look at DCI's CEO Fred Buttrell's own words:


    From Aviationnow: By mixing flights of the various Connection carriers, Delta will be getting away from the practice of concentrating a carrier at one airport, which hurt Delta when Comair's pilots went on strike. "We are diversifying feed into the various hubs so we will not have all eggs in one basket," Buttrell says.

    There's also a healthy competitive aspect to having a portfolio of feeder carriers. "The lowest cost producer with the highest quality will get rewarded with aircraft," the executive says.

    Here is the link for the full article
    http://aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_comm.jsp?view=story&id=news/ccom1227.xml

    Even Leo Mullin weighed in on the situation in a Cincinnati Enquirer article.

    Q: What about Comair, your Erlanger-based regional subsidiary? Any lessons learned from this spring's strike, and will the company continue to expand as mainline flying recedes?

    A: That whole strike was an extremely unfortunate circumstance, and I feel that it did not have to happen, and let's just leave it at that. I do have regret about it, but it's in the past.

    Link http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/11/15/fin_delta_upbeat_about.html

    It sure sounds as though Mr. Mullin and Mr. Buttrell don't want a repeat of the situation that they have encountered with the Comair strike. Therefore, the intermixing of the DCI carriers will continue in order to reduce ASA's leverage and protect key routes in the Delta network from "struck work" policies.

    Hoffa,

    It took three years for Comair pilots and management to reach an agreement. I would suspect the same thing to happen over at ASA. Three years is plenty of time for Comair, Skywest and ACA to ramp up operations out of ATL and DFW. Heck, Comair is taking delivery of 36 airplanes this year alone. We are not talking about reaching ASA levels at these airports. Delta just needs to intermix the carriers enough to protect key routes within their network.

    Happy flying!!!

    RJ
     
    FlyPNS1
    Posts: 5260
    Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:43 am

    I misspoke when I said DL cuts, I meant that DL would have to cut DCI flights. I often speak of DCI flights simply as DL flights especially since Comair and ASA are owned by DL.
     
    ATL2CDG
    Posts: 277
    Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:13 am

    *Bows*

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:50 am

    I concide to you, RJ. It's obvious that I'm trying to be too optimistic about management/labour relations, but evident the management themselves cloak not their intentions. I'm quite a pacifist and would prefer that the two sides solve their differences with labour disruptions and "hub intrusions." Oh well, back to the real world, eh?

    Also, OH is taking 36 deliveries this year? I've read somewhere that EV will be taking "nearly 30" including 11 CRJ700s. Anyone have anything more exact than "nearly 30?"
    Ignorantia juris neminem excusat.
     
    777-200
    Posts: 959
    Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 11:11 pm

    RE: Comair At Atlanta?

    Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:52 am

    Ok a ACA 328jet
    777-200
    Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy

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