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Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:23 pm

From Leehan News:

“Our A321 is our “Middle of the Market” aircraft, and at up to 240 seats, it is doing a fantastic job,” continued Leahy. He saw no reason to extend the aircraft to an A322. “At 240 seats, all 18 inches wide, I see no reason to change things,” Leahy said. “At 80% market share, we own this market.”


True, but I am disappointed that we won't see what the next iteration in the A320 family will look like any time soon.

Seems Airbus is willing and able to rest on their laurels and take profits. Good on them!
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NYCRuss
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Leahy has a different definition of the MOM than Boeing.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:34 pm

Leahy's statement neatly coincides with Boeing's publication of its somewhat underwhelming 737-10 spec - see separate thread. No surprise!
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:48 pm

"We Own This (MOM) Market"


Yes we discussed a similar topic some 6 months ago.

Leahy: MOM Market Already Taken By A321neo
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:51 pm

Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is, so I am not inclined to agree Airbus "owns" that specific market. No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.

There is no doubt that the A321 is a commercial success on all levels. I do find it very shortsighted Leahy is saying that Airbus will not develop the A320 family further. If you ask me, a rewing A321neo and corresponding stretch would not only be home run aircraft, but would make it very hard and require a bit of time for Boeing to resond with a viable competitor.

As laughable as this 737 MAX 10 is, it shows Boeing's persistence to maintain some grasp in the segment.

Specifically in the US, the 757 is still highly prevalent. While DL is starting to swap capacity for frequency, airlines like AA, while the largest A321neo operator, has chosen to keep there 757s.

The next thing up in the Airbus lineup is the A330-200/-800neo, aircraft that are not selling, period.

Now, vice versa, Boeing could see this as a chance to exploit this. By 2025, given market conditions, they could seriously beat Airbus to the punch and not only have the ground work for a 737 NSA replacement, but also a 757 replacement, the MoM, and it is my opinion that Boeing could easily develop an NSA/MOM side by side, with two models each.

At that point, the oldest 737NGs and A321s, and youngest 757s are going to start being removed from service. I think Boeing knows this.
Last edited by Boeing778X on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:54 pm

The A321 owns the market until something better comes along. The A321NEO is as best optimized for the 2 hour mission. 'As best' as a modern CFRP wing would be lighter and folding wingtips would allow a more efficient aspect ratio and new wings have better underside laminar flow.

There is a MoM opportunity. But is there enough of a business case for a new design? The reality is the A321LR has been given the opportunity to perform missions beyond its optimal range compared to a design optimized for longer missions.


I participated in the design of a 7500nm range engine/airframe. We ended up with two concepts. The preferred design cost about 5% more to fly to 7500nm, but about 3% less to 5000nm. IMHO the A321NEO, due to the old school wings and re-engine is effectively beatable with a new design at the 3+ hour mission.


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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:55 pm

NYCRuss wrote:
Leahy has a different definition of the MOM than Boeing.


Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is, so I am not inclined to agree Airbus "owns" that specific market. No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.


There is no standardized definition of "MOM", Boeing and Airbus have a different definition.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:57 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
As laughable as this 737 MAX 10 is, it shows Boeing's persistence to maintain some grasp in the segment.

Boeing is indeed grasping....at straws. Clear now with the pathetic 737-10 response.

Airbus owns the MOM segment now with the revamped A321.

Something seriously went wrong at Boeing around 2003 or so. They have made one bad move after another. Did something change in their management between 2003-2005? Been downhill since then.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:01 pm

I think it is interesting that he mentions a product name for the stretch, this imho shows that they have worked on it. And in "Leehay" speech he actually said: We can built an A322 if airlines want it. And that is the basic problem of the MoM. If so many airlines want a MoM that it makes doing the MoM attractive, it makes doing a A322 (even with a new wing and MLG) even more attractive.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The A321 owns the market until something better comes along. The A321NEO is as best optimized for the 2 hour mission. 'As best' as a modern CFRP wing would be lighter and folding wingtips would allow a more efficient aspect ratio and new wings have better underside laminar flow.

There is a MoM opportunity. But is there enough of a business case for a new design? The reality is the A321LR has been given the opportunity to perform missions beyond its optimal range compared to a design optimized for longer missions.


I participated in the design of a 7500nm range engine/airframe. We ended up with two concepts. The preferred design cost about 5% more to fly to 7500nm, but about 3% less to 5000nm. IMHO the A321NEO, due to the old school wings and re-engine is effectively beatable with a new design at the 3+ hour mission.


Lightsaber


Concur completely.

And unlike Boeing, Airbus has never bothered to rewing the A320. I believe they are robbing the airframe of untapped potential.

An A320 with an A350 derived wing? Nice!

Which leads me back to the Boeing NSA/MOM. A CFRP design against the A320, which is indeed very old school, is a no brainer.

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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:13 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
NYCRuss wrote:
Leahy has a different definition of the MOM than Boeing.


Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is, so I am not inclined to agree Airbus "owns" that specific market. No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.


There is no standardized definition of "MOM", Boeing and Airbus have a different definition.


It's true that there is no standardized definition. Especially when it is a Boeing-centric term that has changed over the years. It used to be, from Boeing's perspective, that the MOM would be centered on replacing 752s. Then they spoke with airlines, and in the last few years came to the conclusion that it should be more like a 762 in capacity. Everything that I've read points to a 225 passenger (multiple class,) 5,000 NM airplane that requires engines that do not yet exist. There is also the issue that airlines reportedly don't want to pay Boeing what Boeing wants to charge, and that, if anything, is what I believe will kill Boeing's MOM if not resolved.

So from Boeing's perspective, Leahy is wrong. The A321 is not a MOM, although it is an excellent aircraft. That brings us to Airbus' definition of a MOM. Do they really have one, or is labeling the A321 as a MOM just marketing speak?
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:13 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is

So why don't you teach him? :)

No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.

Oh yes they will. Just like we will see airlines operating the 10MAX with 130 seats. There are already airlines operating the A321ceo with 230 seats.

Now, vice versa, Boeing could see this as a chance to exploit this. By 2025, given market conditions, they could seriously beat Airbus to the punch and not only have the ground work for a 737 NSA replacement, but also a 757 replacement, the MoM, and it is my opinion that Boeing could easily develop an NSA/MOM side by side, with two models each.

I agree with this but that is exactly what Airbus is doing. They hold the upper hand. It's Boeing's decision to make now. Then Airbus can react.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is

So why don't you teach him? :)

No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.

Oh yes they will. Just like we will see airlines operating the 10MAX with 130 seats. There are already airlines operating the A321ceo with 230 seats.

Now, vice versa, Boeing could see this as a chance to exploit this. By 2025, given market conditions, they could seriously beat Airbus to the punch and not only have the ground work for a 737 NSA replacement, but also a 757 replacement, the MoM, and it is my opinion that Boeing could easily develop an NSA/MOM side by side, with two models each.

I agree with this but that is exactly what Airbus is doing. They hold the upper hand. It's Boeing's decision to make now. Then Airbus can react.


I can't teach him because you're distracting me :( XD

Indeed, but it's how effective Airbus' reaction to said aircraft would be.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:32 pm

It always makes me smile when people think that Airbus is "resting" and does not develop anything new. If the market is there a manufacturer will build the corresponding product...
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:37 pm

The MOM is the gap between the largest narrow body and the smallest wide body. For Boeing that gap goes from the 737-9 to the 787-8 (767 is dead as a passenger aircraft) and the A321 fits in this gap (ignoring Airbus' own gap because they are not making noise about them developing something to fill it).

Of course the A330-2/8 is not selling because the capital expenditure gap between large NB and small WB aircraft is large enough that if you need to go wide body expending a little more in a larger WB makes better financial sense.

Airbus has no reason to replace the A320 family any time soon and so it makes better sense for them to keep introducing gradual improvements instead of developing a new aircraft. In the case of Boeing, they have been making noise about replacing the 737 for a while and so it makes sense for them to develop a new narrow body family that addresses the gaps in their product line.

TLDR: Boeing is feeling the pressure to develop something for the MOM, Airbus isn't. And now the weather..
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:41 pm

RalXWB wrote:
It always makes me smile when people think that Airbus is "resting" and does not develop anything new. If the market is there a manufacturer will build the corresponding product...


I couldn't agree more. A350 is effectively done. A330NEO is effectively done. A320NEO is effectively done. A380 all is quite on the western front.
Airbus indeed is working on the next thing... and it's somewhere between an A320 and an A359. They'll be printing money with the A320/A350 programs to pay for it too. They are in a good position going forward.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:45 pm

How is that pitch like at 240 seats Mr. Leahy?
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:46 pm

Sales people like Mr. Leahy don't achieve such great success unless they are very astute with statements they make in public and to their customers. Maybe his "we own this market." was simply gloating, but somehow I doubt it. There is a purpose to it, but what ?
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:47 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
As laughable as this 737 MAX 10 is, it shows Boeing's persistence to maintain some grasp in the segment.

Boeing is indeed grasping....at straws. Clear now with the pathetic 737-10 response.


1. They aren't going to have a MoM or NSA out for nearly a decade at best.
2. Airbus has a huge advantage with the A321neo.
3. Boeing needs to be able to continue to offer a compelling reason to choose the MAX family.
4. Being "pathetic" or "laughable" may be your view of this, but the options seem to be taking more time and money for little gain, or ceding the market completely.
5. Why don't we wait and see the outcome before we seal Boeing's fate in this market?
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:52 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Something seriously went wrong at Boeing around 2003 or so.


I believe Boeing have been doing exactly what they should with the 737.

There has been no point, in the last decade, to pull the trigger on a 737 replacement.
First of all, it has been selling like happy meals. And the technology just wasn't there to justify a costly clean sheet design given a significant portion of the benefits were obtained through an engine upgrade alone.
No manufacturer can have the latest and most efficient designs covering the entire market.
They would just have marred themselves with more debt and engineering load at a time when what they needed to do is get the 787 program together and get some cash flowing in.

Now, thanks to its genetic size advantage over the 737, the A320 family is slowly pulling ahead as the narrowbody market's sweet spot is moving from ~180 to ~220 seats. But even the 32x is reaching the limit of what its corpulence can do. It is best to wait for the technology to improve and allow for a definite advantage over the competition before investing billions. Airbus will probably not be interested in going clean-sheet for a little while, so Boeing will be in the best position to launch the MoM first when the time is ripe.

As for Airbus, It's understandable that they're not going for the A322... It would only compete with the A321!
But I'd bet that if Boeing decided to launch a bigger successor to the 737 tomorrow, that decision would be reversed in a hurry.
The form of that announcement is a bit bombastic and arrogant, but that's just Leahy's cocky showmanship.
Last edited by Francoflier on Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:52 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
And unlike Boeing, Airbus has never bothered to rewing the A320. I believe they are robbing the airframe of untapped potential.


I'd question that the NG wing is aerodynamically ahead of the "ancient" A320 wing.
( NASA says that the NG "shows elements of a supercritical wing".
Is there actually a good comparison around?)
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:58 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is, so I am not inclined to agree Airbus "owns" that specific market. No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.


There are two main airframe manufacturers in the market, and Mr. Leahy is a top executives at one of them. I'd suggest he's earned the right to have a definitive opinion on what a middle of the market aircraft is.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Imho the big point is that he said A322. He did not say stretch the A321, he did not say change the A321, he used a real Airbus type designation. Look at the A350 there they talk about a stretch of the 1000, but they do not have a designation for it. I see no reason to do it, means give us a reason to do it in Leahy speech.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:31 pm

WIederling wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
And unlike Boeing, Airbus has never bothered to rewing the A320. I believe they are robbing the airframe of untapped potential.


I'd question that the NG wing is aerodynamically ahead of the "ancient" A320 wing.
( NASA says that the NG "shows elements of a supercritical wing".
Is there actually a good comparison around?)


On the contrary, I think Airbus not feeling they need to rewing the A320 shows how well the designed it.

But after 30 years of the same wing, I think it would be time to improve it further.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:32 pm

My big worry for Boeing is that Airbus is indeed working on the next MOM-ish design, while Boeing continues to study the market, as they've been doing seemingly forever. At some point, they need to just jump in and build something (something that makes sense, of course). If Airbus eventually develops the A360 and it's MOM-ish before Beoing can react, then Boeing will be in a real world of hurt going forward and Airbus will truly own that segment of the market. Well, more power to them for planning properly and taking the airplane building biz by the proverbial horns if that happens.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:33 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
How is that pitch like at 240 seats Mr. Leahy?


Mr. Leahy won't care in the slightest if it sells planes and the pitch/configuration is legal, it's the airlines you would need to complain to if you end up in row 32 with 28" pitch and the person in front of you reclines their seat fully. They are the ones trying to maximize their profits by shoehorning that number of people into a smaller space.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
And unlike Boeing, Airbus has never bothered to rewing the A320. I believe they are robbing the airframe of untapped potential.


I'd question that the NG wing is aerodynamically ahead of the "ancient" A320 wing.
( NASA says that the NG "shows elements of a supercritical wing".
Is there actually a good comparison around?)


Except that's not what he said. lol
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:39 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is, so I am not inclined to agree Airbus "owns" that specific market.


Ask 10 people what MOM is and you'll get 10 different answers. If it was clear, Boeing would have launched it by now.

Boeing778X wrote:
No one is going to operate an A321 at 240 seats.


Don't put money on that. You'll lose.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:54 pm

Neither A or B have the appetite to spend multiple billions on a new aircraft right now.Particularly in the present 'end of cycle' environment.I am sure this also true of the 3 big engine makers.They have enough (too much?) on their hands already.
Boeing now has 'something' in this segment - or will have in a couple of years.So both companies are represented in all the key markets.
However boring it may sound or indeed be (for us).There will be no clean sheet narrowbody for quite a while.
When?Perhaps an eis in 10 years earliest IMHO.But he'll there is plenty of new stuff coming to keep us all interested particularly the 777-9 in my case (can't wait).
PS These daily 'bring back the 757-200' posts do make me smile.Look at the specs of the A321NEO LR.The only difference is it sucks up 30% less fuel!
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:00 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Except that's not what he said. lol


LoL ol you want.
If you follow the conversation 778X and I have made the right "join up".

I'd question that a CFRP rewing will bring a worthwhile advance inside of the constraints ( cost, cost, cost and wingspan).
One indication will be how the 777X fares cost, cost .. wise.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:03 pm

VS4ever wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
How is that pitch like at 240 seats Mr. Leahy?


Mr. Leahy won't care in the slightest if it sells planes and the pitch/configuration is legal, it's the airlines you would need to complain to if you end up in row 32 with 28" pitch and the person in front of you reclines their seat fully. They are the ones trying to maximize their profits by shoehorning that number of people into a smaller space.


Point I was getting at was he was touting so many seats and 18in seats but magically skipped out on the pitch.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:04 pm

Imho the basic point is not him saying Airbus would not do a A322, it is him saying that the airlines do not request it.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:20 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
Airbus indeed is working on the next thing... and it's somewhere between an A320 and an A359.


Why should they develop a new airplane in the segement were they are already stronger than the competition?
A321 sell better than 737MAX9 and 767 together
A330 sells better than 787 and they have a higher margin than Boeing

On the other hand they entirely lost the market share below the A320 to Embraer, Bombardier and Boeing.

On the other end of this range, a further A350 strech would be a low hanging fruit. With minimal development effort they would be able to kick the 777X9 out of the market, due to the enormous weight benefit.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:21 pm

WIederling wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Except that's not what he said. lol


LoL ol you want.
If you follow the conversation 778X and I have made the right "join up".

I'd question that a CFRP rewing will bring a worthwhile advance inside of the constraints ( cost, cost, cost and wingspan).
One indication will be how the 777X fares cost, cost .. wise.


Thanks. "LOL LOL LOL...."

Perhaps if you'd quoted the relevant parts, the conversation could have "joined up" for the rest of us. What you selected didn't say what you implied.
-Dave
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:31 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
How is that pitch like at 240 seats Mr. Leahy?


Mr. Leahy won't care in the slightest if it sells planes and the pitch/configuration is legal, it's the airlines you would need to complain to if you end up in row 32 with 28" pitch and the person in front of you reclines their seat fully. They are the ones trying to maximize their profits by shoehorning that number of people into a smaller space.


Point I was getting at was he was touting so many seats and 18in seats but magically skipped out on the pitch.


Again he doesn't care. The 18inch seats are wider than the competition and he can use that to bash them over the head. Pitch doesn't do that.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:35 pm

VS4ever wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

Mr. Leahy won't care in the slightest if it sells planes and the pitch/configuration is legal, it's the airlines you would need to complain to if you end up in row 32 with 28" pitch and the person in front of you reclines their seat fully. They are the ones trying to maximize their profits by shoehorning that number of people into a smaller space.


Point I was getting at was he was touting so many seats and 18in seats but magically skipped out on the pitch.


Again he doesn't care. The 18inch seats are wider than the competition and he can use that to bash them over the head. Pitch doesn't do that.


Well, and arguably in the 320 vs 737 case, pitch is much more up to the individual carrier than seat width is.
-Dave
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:42 pm

VS4ever wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
VS4ever wrote:

Mr. Leahy won't care in the slightest if it sells planes and the pitch/configuration is legal, it's the airlines you would need to complain to if you end up in row 32 with 28" pitch and the person in front of you reclines their seat fully. They are the ones trying to maximize their profits by shoehorning that number of people into a smaller space.


Point I was getting at was he was touting so many seats and 18in seats but magically skipped out on the pitch.


Again he doesn't care. The 18inch seats are wider than the competition and he can use that to bash them over the head. Pitch doesn't do that.


You're looking a bit too deep in my original statement. Just poking a little fun at the guy. I understand why he never mentions it.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:42 pm

WIederling wrote:
I'd question that a CFRP rewing will bring a worthwhile advance inside of the constraints ( cost, cost, cost and wingspan).
One indication will be how the 777X fares cost, cost .. wise.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1352257&p=19288539#p19287881 (i.e. #36) makes for interesting reading. Clearly the design center for the A320 family has shifted since the 80s. I think there is "untapped potential" in the high end of the A320 family, however you make the good point that accessing that potential will be costly, and there's no real competitive force pressuring them to do so.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is


What....?!?
And you do?
Whatever the definition of MOM is we should ask the airline CEO's.
Boeing778X .... with how many CEO's did you discuss the MOM during the last 12 months?

And now to Mr Leahy .... with how many airline CEO's did you and your team discuss MOM, and possible the next € Billion(s) investment for Airbus?
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:11 pm

I assume Leahy says he feels he doesn't have to invest in a A322. Now.

Image

;)
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:14 pm

Johnny Boy!
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:17 pm

keesje wrote:
I assume Leahy says he feels he doesn't have to invest in a A322. Now.



The A321 is printing money, and will do so for a long time to come. Half of the A320 family production will become A321 in 2017. Why risk cannibalizing your own success?
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:17 pm

chiad wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Mr. Leahy doesn't really seem to know what an MOM is


What....?!?
And you do?
Whatever the definition of MOM is we should ask the airline CEO's.
Boeing778X .... with how many CEO's did you discuss the MOM during the last 12 months?

And now to Mr Leahy .... with how many airline CEO's did you and your team discuss MOM, and possible the next € Billion(s) investment for Airbus?


13.

Silly questions, silly answers *Facepalm*


-----

To the other users, perhaps I should have set a definition for an MOM, and I'm sure most would agree, though this is just my personal idea.

An MOM is an airliner that seats 210-280, 2-class, with range up to 5000nm.

Leahy may see the A321 as an MOM, and perhaps at 240 seats, however horrendous the conditions of that cabin would be, would make it so.

I'm guessing that with that many people in it, it would probably fall a little short of 5K.
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
An MOM is an airliner that seats 210-280, 2-class, with range up to 5000nm.


That's just an opinion, and clearly not the opinion of 377 other airlines:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... t-aircraft
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
How is that pitch like at 240 seats Mr. Leahy?

28" same as today's high density A321's. Spirit and Wizzair are 2 airlines already with 28" pitch.

ikolkyo wrote:
Point I was getting at was he was touting so many seats and 18in seats but magically skipped out on the pitch.

His audience is not the passenger. His audience is the airline executives who buys the planes and already knows the seat pitch for that density. It's not a secret.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:30 pm

If it can fly across the Atlantic with 180 people in a decent 2 class cabin, it's a MoM for most airlines and competing with a whole bunch of larger aircraft.

Image
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:39 pm

keesje wrote:
If it can fly across the Atlantic with 180 people in a decent 2 class cabin, it's a MoM for most airlines and competing with a whole bunch of larger aircraft.

Image


You seem to be coming to a different conclusion than the analyst linked to that data.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:42 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
Why should they develop a new airplane in the segement were they are already stronger than the competition?
A321 sell better than 737MAX9 and 767 together
A330 sells better than 787 and they have a higher margin than Boeing

On the other hand they entirely lost the market share below the A320 to Embraer, Bombardier and Boeing.

On the other end of this range, a further A350 strech would be a low hanging fruit. With minimal development effort they would be able to kick the 777X9 out of the market, due to the enormous weight benefit.

Well summarised.

I would add:

Boeing has increased margin targets across the entire commercial product range, at a time for example in the 737 life cycle when you would expect discounting.

Latest 737 developments are as much an attempt to 'spoil' A321 margins, as to meet a need.

Airbus has A330 performance enhancements already in the bank. Their dilemma is releasing them, at a price, which doesn't further erode the smaller end of the A350 model range, and cause A350 to A330 switching. Expect a new high end A330 model, at A321 margins plus, by midyear.

Margins are low on the A350 because it's new, volumes are building, and Airbus is working through launch pricing until 2020 plus. However Boeing's margin increases on 787 and 777X, mean Airbus can creep margins above inflation.

Who knows on the the A380. Must be economies of scale even at low volumes, when essentially delivering to one customer, with whom you have a great build/delivery relationship.

Boeing is going to have buy it's way out of it's future NB model position, probably by acquiring a competitor. Don't be surprised if that in turn triggers a commercial re-organisation into NB and WB entities.
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:47 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
keesje wrote:
I assume Leahy says he feels he doesn't have to invest in a A322. Now.



The A321 is printing money, and will do so for a long time to come. Half of the A320 family production will become A321 in 2017. Why risk cannibalizing your own success?


With a minimal -10X project, I don't see Boeing prodding Airbus to do an A322. What customers will Airbus net with an A322 that they'd lose to the hypothetical -10X without it? I can't think of very many, if any at all?
-Dave
 
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Re: Leahy: A322 Not Needed, "We Own This (MOM) Market"

Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:24 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
13.

Silly questions, silly answers *Facepalm*


-----

To the other users, perhaps I should have set a definition for an MOM, and I'm sure most would agree, though this is just my personal idea.

An MOM is an airliner that seats 210-280, 2-class, with range up to 5000nm.

Leahy may see the A321 as an MOM, and perhaps at 240 seats, however horrendous the conditions of that cabin would be, would make it so.

I'm guessing that with that many people in it, it would probably fall a little short of 5K.


I'll rest my case then!

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