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gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:04 pm

Are the two ferry operators competent to add service?

Also, why is there a need to pander to Tobago? It seems to me that Tobago needs Trinidad more than the other way round - or maybe politics is involved.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:43 am

gunnerman wrote:
Are the two ferry operators competent to add service?

Also, why is there a need to pander to Tobago? It seems to me that Tobago needs Trinidad more than the other way round - or maybe politics is involved.


The ferries are insufficient and seem always to be breaking down. The T&T government needs to focus on improving this service and cease burdening BW with something that no airline can provide. A big reason for the frustration is that people arrive with no reservation but expect to be able to travel. And there maybe valid reasons for that, one being when the ferries aren't working.

Tobago has 2 seats in the parliament, vital in a close election. In addition most of those travelling to TAB are likely to be Trinidadians. This route has 1 million air passengers annually, serviced by 3-4 of BWs 5 ATRs.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:12 pm

If the government can pressure the ferry operators into doubling their service and making it reliable, can the airbridge be flown by, say, six return flights a day using 738s? And BW would benefit by having only 738s, with each 738 doing its stint on the airbridge to even out cycles. The schedule frequency would be less, of course, but perhaps people have become too accustomed to what is probably a unique type of aviation bus service.
 
A388
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:32 pm

BW's ATR's also fly to other islands in the Caribbean so BW will never have a 738 only fleet.

A388
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:15 pm

True, I meant to say 738s for existing 738 routes and airbridge. That would leave a fleet of two or three ATRs for the local routes, which would be good for reliability.
 
A388
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:34 pm

You will be worst off by operating a 738 aircraft or any other jet on such a short route like POS-TAB. That will be much more expensive to operate compared to a turboprop aircraft. The 738 isn't economical to operate such short legs.

A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:04 pm

gunnerman wrote:
If the government can pressure the ferry operators into doubling their service and making it reliable, can the airbridge be flown by, say, six return flights a day using 738s? And BW would benefit by having only 738s, with each 738 doing its stint on the airbridge to even out cycles. The schedule frequency would be less, of course, but perhaps people have become too accustomed to what is probably a unique type of aviation bus service.



If that 15 minute cycle is bad for the ATRs I don't know how it could work for 738s.

The T&T government needs to add more ferries with higher numbers of sailings. How they do it is up to them. The airbridge should be used by people who are time constrained and willing to pay a premium for it, or those who have an aversion to sea travel. As it is it is now used as a bus service, hence all the problems that it encounters.

An alternate will be to offer ferries from the northeastern part of Trinidad in addition to those from Port of Spain. Yes people will need to drive out there to get it but the shorter distance will allow higher frequency sailings. I cannot imagine that it will be more of a hassle than trekking to the airport and waiting hours for a standby seat to open up.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:00 pm

I don't know the north east of Trinidad at all. Are you suggesting that a port could be built at a place such as Toco?
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:42 pm

So I did some digging and situation is probably worst than I anticapted.

1. The current ferry is schedule is highly inefficient. Currently, the sole operating fast ship (T&T Express) takes four hours to make the journey between Scarborough and Port of Spain. It makes a staggering ONE roundtrip per day on the current schedule.
2. The second fast is in dry dock for maintenance. However, the maintenance bill was projected to be $3.2M (USD) but has already soared to $8M (USD). When the second ship (T&T Express) goes to dry dock it could face a just as hefty of a bill as it is the older of the two vessels.

I understand why so much pressure is now put on BW, BW is essentially the only option between the two islands. The Government of Trinidad and Tobago (GoTT) has underdelivered to its people. The Sea/Airbridge is a necessary lifeline to both islands. There is no reason why a ship should be doing one round trip a day,that is abysmal to me. The GoTT needs to acquire and 3rd ship and run a more aggressive schedule. The way things are being ran right now wont last much longer into the future.

Afterthought: How would the 717s handle the route (POS-TAB)?
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:56 pm

gunnerman wrote:
I don't know the north east of Trinidad at all. Are you suggesting that a port could be built at a place such as Toco?



I think that there already has been some discussion on some ferry arrangement, maybe out of Toco. Not a large ferry but more one that can allow fast trips with a quick turnaround and that can accommodate cars. So we are talking more about a pier than a port.

What is evident is that the air bridge is over burdened and Trinidad needs better access to TAB. I think that the price conscious vacationers can use the ferry, leaving the air bridge for those on connecting with international flights, or business and other urgent time sensitive travel. Then there can be more of a 10x daily service instead of the 20-25x that occurs, which forces the 738 on the route if an ATR breaks down. More can be added at peak periods with premium fares.

I just don't think that when ATR was designing this plane they had in mind rugged 3rd world service in a marine environment with a plane running 15 minutes cycles with a 30 minute turn around 12+ hours daily, which is what BW now has. Even LI doesn't burden their planes to that degree and the French Caribbean carriers definitely don't. Nor does Bahamasair.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:00 am

Jets (or any new aircraft type for that matter) on POS-TAB isn’t happening now or anytime soon. BW has no money. The GORTT currently has no money. A re-fleeting would be too costly right now. Jets permanently on the route would be too costly long term. BW is stuck with the status quo for the foreseeable future.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:03 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Afterthought: How would the 717s handle the route (POS-TAB)?



Not sure that any jet would work on such a short run. The air bridge is a public utility. Its focus is completely different from the rest of BWs operations. The goal with that latter is for it to be break even at a minimum, but preferably generating profits.

The air bridge should be spun off with its own dedicated fleet. BW can then be paid fees to provide crews, ground services, maintenance, reservations, etc. The fact that this is a social route, and therefore by definition a loss maker, will then not be on BWs balance sheet.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:06 am

Also, re the ferry. It was very costly to operate. It lost boatloads (no pun intended) of money and was a drain on the public purse that was also a non-preferred method of travel by all who frequent that route. I highly doubt there will be a strong effort to beef up ferry service. Even returning it to its previous level of service seems unlikely to me, especially in the current economic climate.
 
TriniA340
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:12 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Afterthought: How would the 717s handle the route (POS-TAB)?


I imagine ANY jet for that matter would be uneconomical, but I've wondered myself, how would an RJ compare to the 737 on the route? Eg, an E175/717/F70. Or maybe an MRJ? A few years ago, BW did use a JAT Airways DC-9 to service the airbridge for a period. I remember well, seeing the little critter zooming around T&T skies. Awesome.
· longer · larger · farther · faster · higher · quieter · smoother ·
 
beeweel15
Posts: 939
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:52 am

The 717 would do well cause Hawaiian uses them in the Hawaiian islands with no problems. BW used the DC9-30CF , DC9-50 and MD80 with no problems in the past. The ERJ 145 / 175 would do well also. Time for BW to upgrade their fleet to the 737-8MAX or A320NEO and the 787-8/9 or A330-200 for long haul and cargo.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:36 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Also, re the ferry. It was very costly to operate. It lost boatloads (no pun intended) of money and was a drain on the public purse that was also a non-preferred method of travel by all who frequent that route. I highly doubt there will be a strong effort to beef up ferry service. Even returning it to its previous level of service seems unlikely to me, especially in the current economic climate.


So they will continue to bail out BW which is also losing boatloads of money on the air bridge, in addition to the huge hassles incurred by those who feel that they can just show up and immediately get a seat. And the ATRs will continue to break down forcing 738s on the route. The result that passengers on the lucrative GEO JFK route must wait 5 hours because their plane is flying to TAB.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:37 pm

beeweel15 wrote:
The 717 would do well cause Hawaiian uses them in the Hawaiian islands with no problems. BW used the DC9-30CF , DC9-50 and MD80 with no problems in the past. The ERJ 145 / 175 would do well also. Time for BW to upgrade their fleet to the 737-8MAX or A320NEO and the 787-8/9 or A330-200 for long haul and cargo.



Some one just told you that they have no money.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:35 pm

guyanam wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Also, re the ferry. It was very costly to operate. It lost boatloads (no pun intended) of money and was a drain on the public purse that was also a non-preferred method of travel by all who frequent that route. I highly doubt there will be a strong effort to beef up ferry service. Even returning it to its previous level of service seems unlikely to me, especially in the current economic climate.


So they will continue to bail out BW which is also losing boatloads of money on the air bridge, in addition to the huge hassles incurred by those who feel that they can just show up and immediately get a seat. And the ATRs will continue to break down forcing 738s on the route. The result that passengers on the lucrative GEO JFK route must wait 5 hours because their plane is flying to TAB.


I think the view is that investing in the ferry is a waste because so few want to use it anyway. Plus, with BW the airbridge is a loss making part of a wider entity where other profitable routes can absorb some of the loss. The ferry is standalone and has no other source of revenue.

I agree that the ferry is probably the better way to go as it would reduce cost significantly but I don't see that happening,
 
dominicl316
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:58 pm

InterCaribbean is selling seats for their new flights from EIS to STT, STX, SXM, DOM, and SLU beginning the week of February 2, 2018.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:13 am

Brickell305 wrote:
[
I think the view is that investing in the ferry is a waste because so few want to use it anyway. Plus, with BW the airbridge is a loss making part of a wider entity where other profitable routes can absorb some of the loss. The ferry is standalone and has no other source of revenue.

I agree that the ferry is probably the better way to go as it would reduce cost significantly but I don't see that happening,




The problem is that BWs international routes are NOT profitable. BW has to invest in replacing its jets or engage in massive refurbishing.

If the GoTT doesn't want to invest in its ferries then it needs to invest in a standalone air bridge and stop dumping the financial responsibility on BW. Let the GoTT assume 100% responsibility for underwriting losses or cease ranting that BW is losing money while pushing this huge burden on it.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:17 am

dominicl316 wrote:
InterCaribbean is selling seats for their new flights from EIS to STT, STX, SXM, DOM, and SLU beginning the week of February 2, 2018.



At least that gives people travelling between ANU/SXM and STT some choices.
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 852
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:36 am

beeweel15 wrote:
The 717 would do well cause Hawaiian uses them in the Hawaiian islands with no problems. BW used the DC9-30CF , DC9-50 and MD80 with no problems in the past. The ERJ 145 / 175 would do well also. Time for BW to upgrade their fleet to the 737-8MAX or A320NEO and the 787-8/9 or A330-200 for long haul and cargo.


Well we know long haul never worked last time, why you think it'll work with a change in type?
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:58 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
beeweel15 wrote:
The 717 would do well cause Hawaiian uses them in the Hawaiian islands with no problems. BW used the DC9-30CF , DC9-50 and MD80 with no problems in the past. The ERJ 145 / 175 would do well also. Time for BW to upgrade their fleet to the 737-8MAX or A320NEO and the 787-8/9 or A330-200 for long haul and cargo.


Well we know long haul never worked last time, why you think it'll work with a change in type?



Beewee15 never thinks about the economic aspects of airline operation. The only Caribbean owned and operated carrier with transatlantic service is PY. They have ongoing problems with this route because of the fact that its a one plane operation.

If PY with the huge Suriname population in the Netherlands cannot make it work I don't see how BW could succeed across the Atlantic with the tiny T&T population that is resident in the UK.

And in fact BW did have problems with the MD80 on the TAB route. These were operated as a tag on to their JFK and MIA routes, and TAB wasn't given priority when there were delays. I remember rage coming from TAB on this. Air Caribbean, a private carrier, emerged on the route at that time.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:54 pm

I have a recollection of BWIA using the TriStar sometimes on the TAB route. The engineers must have been grinding their teeth at this.
 
User avatar
andrefranca
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:10 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:39 pm

Hello Caribbeans friends.... long time no talk... I see the BW saga continues across the decades.... that airbridge is really that loss making? cause it was 40 usd return that I paid and in malaysia I also paid 20 usd for a longer atr flight...

Intercaribbeans expanding.... interesting...
Andre F. :blockhead:
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:18 pm

Winair flight 807 has been grounded in Port-au-Prince when the aircraft operated by PAWA was grounded by Haitian Airport Authority due to outstanding payments. Winair has apologised for being "caught in the middle of this situation".

http://curacaochronicle.com/aviation/large-group-of-winair-passengers-stuck-in-haiti-for-second-day/
https://www.fly-winair.sx/winairs-flight-caught-in-the-middle-13.html
 
guyanam
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:03 am

I guess Winair will be off the PAP CUR route.
 
303dk
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:57 am

Hearing that a private plane crashed at STX.
 
 
gunnerman
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 pm

guyanam wrote:
I guess Winair will be off the PAP CUR route.

The situation has been resolved, but we don't know how. Perhaps Winair paid PAWA's debt.

Winair is still selling flights operated by PAWA's M83 to and from PAP. These are low-frequency routes anyway.

WM807 (Tuesdays)
CUR-PAP-SXM-CUR

WM809 (Saturdays)
CUR-SXM-PAP-CUR
 
303dk
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:20 pm

Balloonchaser wrote:
https://stcroixsource.com/2017/12/08/breaking-5-killed-in-stx-plane-crash/

Stylee is the band
 
GUYAIR707
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:05 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:25 am

Sad to see A321's go on MIA-POS, they are like chalk to cheese compared to 738's on EWR-MIA. Love the IFE's. LI's service OGL-BGI and onward with B6 to FLL or JFK is a great option for Guyanese now. OGL is a breeze and my choice as I live close by. LI's ATR's are very smooth and surprisingly on time. The cost is usually less than BW.
 
BW985
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:04 pm

Has anyone else heard of this?

http://ttwhistleblower.com/money-owing- ... in-tobago/

Does anyone know if ttwhistleblower is a reliable source?

I wonder if it is 8 million USD or 8 million TTD. Is that the amount the T&T government pays to Virgin Atlantic every month?
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