Even owned aircraft will be security for funding lines, so effectively no owned aircraft.

ojjunior wrote:

C'mon pal, where's the full frame pic for us?

there are only a few photos available + a short video


https://community.infinite-flight.com/t ... 0er/115007

Video below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biNybQq29y0

Damn. This is outrageously beautiful. What a medecine for the eyes... Went immediately to my top 3 in the 77W list.
Sad we probably won't see it around...

ojjunior wrote:

Damn. This is outrageously beautiful. What a medecine for the eyes... Went immediately to my top 3 in the 77W list.
Sad we probably won't see it around...

Not according to AZ. Last week the airline, through its newly appointed "special administrator" the airline said it is not dropping the lease for this 77W; it was flown to Lourdes to have its new cabin fitted. It should be back in FCO in August. So, if AZ is still around in 2-3 mos, and you wish to see it in the flesh, you will need to travel to EZE, JFK or FCO to see it around.

http://www.metronews.it/17/05/18/alital ... gosto.html

dcajet wrote:

ojjunior wrote:

Damn. This is outrageously beautiful. What a medecine for the eyes... Went immediately to my top 3 in the 77W list.
Sad we probably won't see it around...

Not according to AZ. Last week the airline, through its newly appointed "special administrator" the airline said it is not dropping the lease for this 77W; it was flown to Lourdes to have its new cabin fitted. It should be back in FCO in August. So, if AZ is still around in 2-3 mos, and you wish to see it in the flesh, you will need to travel to EZE, JFK or FCO to see it around.

http://www.metronews.it/17/05/18/alital ... gosto.html

That's great news!
No GRU in the plans?

ojjunior wrote:

That's great news!
No GRU in the plans?

Nope, right now, the plan is to fly this bird 3x w to EZE and 1x w to JFK. These two stations are the two most profitable for AZ on its international network and the airline needs to maximize its revenues. I have not heard or seen anything about GRU getting the 77W.

I hope this 777W will see its days in Alitalia operations. On another note looks like the addional A332 may be coming from Turkish's excess A330 fleet and will be leased from GECAS MSN 463 TC-JNF.

Speedbirdasia wrote:

I hope this 777W will see its days in Alitalia operations. On another note looks like the addional A332 may be coming from Turkish's excess A330 fleet and will be leased from GECAS MSN 463 TC-JNF.

Dates?

It was posted on Turkish Fleet News on their FB page. No mention of dates, with post August most likely.

https://www.facebook.com/trfleetnews/?h ... NE&fref=nf

Aren't they bankrupt? They shouldn't be leasing anything!

what a beauty

I understand the carrier needs to maximise their revenue but they certainly ain't going about it the right way by taking on new leases! I'll use QF as example, to maximise revenue they downsized their International network, brought forward retirement of the B734, B763, B744 fleet, deferred delivery of new aircraft, maximised fleet utilisation of the existing fleet by minimizing aircraft ground time & underwent a major cost saving transformation. The carrier has bounced back and now reinstating old routes, introducing new routes, & taking on delivery of new aircraft.
That's what AZ needs right now, not 1 x B77W & 1 x A330 lease!

EK413

Speedbirdasia wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Where would they send them? JFK? NRT?

Alitalia is in the process of restructuring, so until the final plan takes shape your guess is as good as mine.

As in re-re-re-re-structuring... for how many times in the past ?? years? In the case of Alitalia, kicking the proverbial can down the the road (...again...until 2-3 years later, when it's time to repeat...again...) is perhaps a better choice of words than "re-structuring" IMHO.

EK413 wrote:

I understand the carrier needs to maximise their revenue but they certainly ain't going about it the right way by taking on new leases! I'll use QF as example, to maximise revenue they downsized their International network, brought forward retirement of the B734, B763, B744 fleet, deferred delivery of new aircraft, maximised fleet utilisation of the existing fleet by minimizing aircraft ground time & underwent a major cost saving transformation. The carrier has bounced back and now reinstating old routes, introducing new routes, & taking on delivery of new aircraft.
That's what AZ needs right now, not 1 x B77W & 1 x A330 lease!

EK413

You seem to assume that Alitalia has the same ailments QF had. But, to the contrary, the only part of the network where AZ makes money is their international long haul one, unlike Qantas. If AZ stops flying long haul, they stop the only positive cash flow they have. Get rid of EZE, JFK et al and AZ can't generate any cash.

In that context, I can understand leasing in more aircraft - it's a lease not CAPEX on new owned aircraft, that will help them fly more or offer more capacity to where they make money.

dcajet wrote:

EK413 wrote:

I understand the carrier needs to maximise their revenue but they certainly ain't going about it the right way by taking on new leases! I'll use QF as example, to maximise revenue they downsized their International network, brought forward retirement of the B734, B763, B744 fleet, deferred delivery of new aircraft, maximised fleet utilisation of the existing fleet by minimizing aircraft ground time & underwent a major cost saving transformation. The carrier has bounced back and now reinstating old routes, introducing new routes, & taking on delivery of new aircraft.
That's what AZ needs right now, not 1 x B77W & 1 x A330 lease!

EK413

You seem to assume that Alitalia has the same ailments QF had. But, to the contrary, the only part of the network where AZ makes money is their international long haul one, unlike Qantas. If AZ stops flying long haul, they stop the only positive cash flow they have. Get rid of EZE, JFK et al and AZ can't generate any cash.

In that context, I can understand leasing in more aircraft - it's a lease not CAPEX on new owned aircraft, that will help them fly more or offer more capacity to where they make money.

Firstly I'm not assuming AZ have the ailments as QF. QF has a profitable Domestic / Regional network which they could fall back and treak the International operations. AZ main network is International, however they could still maximise their profit on key international routes by cutting back under performing routes, redeploying those aircraft on routes which generate positive revenue in turn freeing up current fleet, not committing to new leases & expenses. Why are they launching LAX services again?

EK413

EK413 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

EK413 wrote:

I understand the carrier needs to maximise their revenue but they certainly ain't going about it the right way by taking on new leases! I'll use QF as example, to maximise revenue they downsized their International network, brought forward retirement of the B734, B763, B744 fleet, deferred delivery of new aircraft, maximised fleet utilisation of the existing fleet by minimizing aircraft ground time & underwent a major cost saving transformation. The carrier has bounced back and now reinstating old routes, introducing new routes, & taking on delivery of new aircraft.
That's what AZ needs right now, not 1 x B77W & 1 x A330 lease!

EK413

You seem to assume that Alitalia has the same ailments QF had. But, to the contrary, the only part of the network where AZ makes money is their international long haul one, unlike Qantas. If AZ stops flying long haul, they stop the only positive cash flow they have. Get rid of EZE, JFK et al and AZ can't generate any cash.

In that context, I can understand leasing in more aircraft - it's a lease not CAPEX on new owned aircraft, that will help them fly more or offer more capacity to where they make money.

Firstly I'm not assuming AZ have the ailments as QF. QF has a profitable Domestic / Regional network which they could fall back and treak the International operations. AZ main network is International, however they could still maximise their profit on key international routes by cutting back under performing routes, redeploying those aircraft on routes which generate positive revenue in turn freeing up current fleet, not committing to new leases & expenses. Why are they launching LAX services again?

EK413

Well, that is what they were doing by getting rid of 20 A320. The long haul fleet is all spoken for, flying to where they generate cash. It is on domestic and Euro routes that AZ loses its shirt.

LAX? Maybe because they feel they can make money during the peak summer season?

dcajet wrote:

EK413 wrote:

I understand the carrier needs to maximise their revenue but they certainly ain't going about it the right way by taking on new leases! I'll use QF as example, to maximise revenue they downsized their International network, brought forward retirement of the B734, B763, B744 fleet, deferred delivery of new aircraft, maximised fleet utilisation of the existing fleet by minimizing aircraft ground time & underwent a major cost saving transformation. The carrier has bounced back and now reinstating old routes, introducing new routes, & taking on delivery of new aircraft.
That's what AZ needs right now, not 1 x B77W & 1 x A330 lease!

EK413

You seem to assume that Alitalia has the same ailments QF had. But, to the contrary, the only part of the network where AZ makes money is their international long haul one, unlike Qantas. If AZ stops flying long haul, they stop the only positive cash flow they have. Get rid of EZE, JFK et al and AZ can't generate any cash.

In that context, I can understand leasing in more aircraft - it's a lease not CAPEX on new owned aircraft, that will help them fly more or offer more capacity to where they make money.

I don't see much correlation between the two. Qantas was in better shape than Alitalia.

The new B777 is a very, very attractive looking plane, it must be said. Those colours look superb on it.

dcajet wrote:

EK413 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

You seem to assume that Alitalia has the same ailments QF had. But, to the contrary, the only part of the network where AZ makes money is their international long haul one, unlike Qantas. If AZ stops flying long haul, they stop the only positive cash flow they have. Get rid of EZE, JFK et al and AZ can't generate any cash.

In that context, I can understand leasing in more aircraft - it's a lease not CAPEX on new owned aircraft, that will help them fly more or offer more capacity to where they make money.

Firstly I'm not assuming AZ have the ailments as QF. QF has a profitable Domestic / Regional network which they could fall back and treak the International operations. AZ main network is International, however they could still maximise their profit on key international routes by cutting back under performing routes, redeploying those aircraft on routes which generate positive revenue in turn freeing up current fleet, not committing to new leases & expenses. Why are they launching LAX services again?

EK413

Well, that is what they were doing by getting rid of 20 A320. The long haul fleet is all spoken for, flying to where they generate cash. It is on domestic and Euro routes that AZ loses its shirt.

LAX? Maybe because they feel they can make money during the peak summer season?

If LAX is a cash generating route and the administrators believe so too I wish the carrier the best of luck. I personally don't see the logic of leasing additional frames adding more cost even though you say they have retired 20 narrow bodies.

I put my money on the carrier continuing to bleed and we'll be having this very same discussion in a few months and that's if AZ survive.

BTW, I agree the B77W looks stunning.

EK413

Speedbirdasia wrote:

2- Jet airways is known for creating pseudo financial entities in the form of leasing companies that lease these planes to the mother company, so even those A330's that you are talking about being sold are essentially still in the owership of Jet in one form or the other.

VOILAAAA! Hit the nail on the head buddy!

Many of these pseudo-entities registered in tax-havens like Isle of Mann, Macau, Mauritius and so on. Lalajee is a genius! Always wondered how a small-time travel agent from Patiala could own and run an operation like Jet and grow it to its current size & scale.

BTW Indigo, KF & SG did it too! Infact except Go Air which is Parsi owned and run on certain "ethics" I think everyone is doing it! Many of the pseudo-entities registered for KF business have transitioned to doing business for Indigo. A connection there?

With the resources AZ has at its disposal with its joint venture (AF/KL/DL) why don't they go to one of these carriers for advice? Guessing they are the red headed step child of that marriage and unwanted to avoid AF/KL competition, seems like a great connection point to get to Africa or Middle East & India from pretty much most of Europe and North America so not sure why they couldn't make a great connecting hub out of Milan or Rome.

Beautiful 77W though!