connector4you
Posts: 768
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Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:53 am

Accordingly to an Airwise article the members of the Qualiflyer Group decided to formally disband their lucrative alliance. All former members are now free to seek and join other alliances on individual basis.
I see Swiss being invited in Oneworld due to their extensive European network. This is like a ..must have for Oneworld!

Any other ideas, rumors or speculations on who might join whom are welcome on this thread…
Take a look at the other members by visiting for the last time maybe http://www.qualiflyer.com
Cheers
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:57 am

Looks like LOT is talking to STAR and Lufthansa at this moment and might join them. Of not they will do oneworld through its AA and BA connections and shareholdings.
 
slawko
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:04 pm

Let the airlines stay alive and revocer from Spet 11th and the failure of other airlines/alliances, then they can think about going on to new alliances.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
northwest_guy
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:46 pm

I'd like to see some of them team up with Northwest so they can get the Wings alliance off the ground again, but i REALLY doubt that this will happen.
 
Lionel
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:35 pm

In swiss newspapers you can read today that Qualiflyer will exist in future. So it is possible to collect miles!
 
Loadcontroller
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone?time For New Alliance

Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:35 pm

I really think that Oneworld would be the best option for ZRH airport. But still as it is not absolutely shure how the new airline (Swiss) is going to develop, AA and BA hesitate what I somehow understand. You don't want a partner who might be gone in a couple of months again...

Besides ZRH would be a great opportunity for LHR and BA to have a hub in central europe.

Loadcontroller
 
keesje
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:49 pm

Swiss : Oneworld (logical, Middle S Europe Hub)
Volare : "Wings" (announced, Italy feeder)
Lot : Star (LH dominance in Europe)
TAP : Skyteam (S America Hub)
DAT : Skyteam (used to government deals)

??

Keesje

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:08 pm

Well if these deals do get off the ground, look for mergers of some sort.

STAR

LH and OS are said to be in talks about a future merger, LOT joining them would also seem to be logical and future SK merger into the fold....

ONEWORLD

Swiss should join this alliance as it is a logical step to strengthen this struggling alliance. ZRH would be a strong base airport for a continental European section of the alliance.

SKYTEAM

DAT would appear to be too closely geograpically located to Paris to become a partner. By this I mean that their plans do not seem to suit a deal with AF as it would interfere with the CDG hub. TAP well could be in the same situation actually but as a feeder / South American focus carrier could be strong.

' WINGS ' ?

Volare will be a strong feeder, and it could be a very successful match. The south european partner will help build up its network, especially after the farce that occured with the Alitalia partnership. Possibly a KLM Italia???

IMO these will also see a consolidation of carriers into new groupings and ultimately 3 or 4 carriers surviving.

ciao
 
lumumba
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:26 pm

Hi indianicworld i'm not so sure about you vision on BRU and CDG.
Because there are so close they can be complementary.
Don't forget BRU will never go more than 30.000.000 passengers and they are gooing to construct an AIRport in the middle of BRU and CDG.
If you conect this tree point's with T.G.V than you will have somthing strong?
Regards
Patrice
 
gaut
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:58 am

First Qualiflyer is NOT gone but partners can leave to another alliance if they want.

Can you explain me why OneWorld needs another european partner with a strong partner as BA is?

Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
connector4you
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:30 am

In January 2002 British Airways announced that they were working on a restructuring plan that may include a drop on at least 15 unprofitable European destinations. There were few speculations even on this forum as to what those destinations might be…If that's still in the works at BA then Swiss with its existent network could be an attractive partner for Oneworld.
Cheers
 
DELTA777
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Wings

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:07 am

Hey anyone got any news about Wings? I really want them to officially start it!

D E L T A 7 7 7
 
connector4you
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:01 am

There you have it Volare Airlines is going under... Wings and so Italy is covered by two different alliances.
Cheers
 
keesje
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:37 pm

I think Volare is in a better position then ever before.

It will be linked to a powerfull network of healthy carriers and I hope they take the opportunity to expand internationally.

Perhaps there will be a S European "Wings" Hub with its own international connection in the future ...



"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airblue
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:28 am

I don't think Volare is still a so strong partner for KLM in the Italian domestic market.
They have to stop all their Sardinia flights from next week.And they want to focus better on the charter market that it's where they get money.
More details here:http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/735959/
 
Hoffa
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 2:38 am

Swiss tabloids say Swiss Air Lines is currently in talks with Air France about joining Skyteam.
 
keesje
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:00 am

Airblue I think phocus wouldn't be Sardinia but the rich North & bigger city's in middle / southern Italy.

keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
connector4you
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:52 pm

It appears to me that Wings Alliance through KLM is set to step firmly on the Italian market and beyond onto the South-Eastern European region. Their immediate target seem to be the Milan-Malpensa Airport as a funneling hub to AMS and beyond. Here is where Volare is well established and fits perfectly the bill by drawing in a lot of domestic traffic.


But get this… a new "Italian" paper-airline is brewing out of Pescara (150 km East of Rome) which is going to be managed and cared for by … MALEV ITALY.

Now MALEV is a… KLM/NW partner! (Is that just a simple coincidence?!)

This brand new airline is called AIR ITALICA and is said to be targeting Sarajevo, Pristina, Sofia, Zagreb, Timisoara, Bucharest.It is understood that the airline is contemplating a fleet of CRJ 700 and that initially will start flying …Pescara-Milan route.

So while Oneworld faces internal unrest and perhaps a lot of incertitude the Wings are well underway and focused on carrying out quietly their new long-term business plan.

Skyteam on the other hand is holding talks with Swiss. Iberia is clearly unhappy with the way things are progressing inside the Oneworld and is looking over the fence as well. BA is restructuring its business- wonder if June 2002 it's not a little to late... So we have more than clear indications that the "world alliances soup" is simmering again but is far from being cooked!!!
Cheers



 
traveler_7
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:31 pm

Is it possible for LOT to stay out of alliances? Or at least out of ONEWORLD and STAR?
 
airblue
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:33 pm

Just to say that Volare moved from MXP to LIN 50% of its domestic flights since spring 2001.
Also from next week Volare will reduce domestic flights by 20%.
I don't think you can call Volare as "a strong partner for KLM in South-Europe".
 
BestWestern
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:35 pm

In the days before the QF agreement took place Swissair was a member of the Atlantic Excellence grouping alongside DL.

DL and Swissair match each other quite well, and would still be good partners.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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DaV
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:30 am

About Volare/KLM debacle:
Volare is surely in a stronger situation than ever before, but just because they moved main scheduled operations from MXP to LIN. MXP is simply too far to be attractive for businessman heading from/to Milan who needs fast connections and nearness to the city. LIN can't handle big aircraft nor cannot be expanded (rwys, new bigger terminals, etc) due to its positioning, close to the city but also sorrounded by houses and MORE IMPORTANT by the Idroscalo, the '20 waterport for idros wich today is our "sea". MXP was needed due to the pressure for interncontinental connection (especially with North America), and during the '80 Alitalia sought after it a major possibility to develop a strong intercontinental and profitable network (remember that the big part of intercont flights to FCO are full of tourist from Asia and N America who hardly fill business/first class seats). MXP proved to be uncomfortable for both passenger and airlines (45 minutes away while LIN is only 15' from downtown, and situation is worst for people who lives in the eastern zone of Milan and nearby towns), even if its quite simple to go through the inside (only 1 terminal for scheduled flights simplify everything, and the layout is almost OK) and it's not that crap everyone who's not been there believe. But money are more important for airlines than anything else, so Volare moved to LIN because they mainly serve Italian routes, for wich having a close-to-the-city airport is more suited than a 45km-away hub (from LIN with 1 you can get to downtown, while from MXP you need about 7). But LIN has been banned to serve connection routes towards internation hubs (FRA, AMS, CDG, LHR and so on) to keep MXP free of a deadly concurrent (many prefer actually to fly with LH, KL, AF from LIN and get to other hub rather than go till MXP and fly AZ). The moral? Volare is satisfied of LIN operations and hardly will change to an all-MXP service to feed for KLM or someone else, when other airlines can caught up the vacuum they left in LIN. If they'll have the possibility to offer feeder routes from LIN they'll be happy to do that, otherwise I think they'll leave things the way they are, and KLM will seek for other partners. If they decide to turn ops to MXP, well, best of luck, they'll remain anyway my fav Italian carrier. Anyway seems that KLM has almost the deal...

Just my thought, and sorry if I went a bit off-topic

Rgds

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
connector4you
Posts: 768
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:58 pm

DaV thanks for the latest info from Milan! Well… given the existent setup and local regulations, it appears that the easiest fix for KLM would be to move its operations from Malpensa to Linate, et voila...
I bet Swiss would love Skyteam's tranquility right now...but of course they are not anymore what they use to be...
The BA/AA Alliance application with USDOT has been pulled out today and the two airlines will continue to work together just as "marketing partners". Looks like Oneworld members will meet next week in order to assess their past performance and future direction. Anything is possible here…hopefully every member has its own "plan B"(Iberia is got one…)
Cheers

 
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DaV
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:28 pm

Connector4you, it's not that simple moving from MXP to LIN: there's an Italian law, the Bersani Act, wich bans airlines to plant feeder routes from LIN to European hubs, except the "shuttle" LIN-FCO; that's why European airlines hates Malpensa: if it's law to go anyway to MXP, take Alitalia and don't waste time (at least was the intention...). If you see the timetable of any European airlines, you'll see the flight to/from LIN are usually limited to 3/4 per day. Before this decree, LIN+MXP counted +/- 15milion pax per year, last data (dec 2001) talks of 25mil pax per year, many of them are caught by AZ in Malpensa.

For the rest of the post, I think that Swiss will go for Oneworld (or what will be left of them Big grin) and not for SkyTeam, too competition with MXP wich is too near, while LOT will go for LH. And qualiflyer won't last more than some months...

Rgds

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
sdate747
Posts: 259
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:02 pm

This alliance was not really that great to begin with. To be successful an alliance needs to be truly global.
The member airlines in Qualiflyer were mostly European and Eastern European with only a select few offering truly global service. When Swissair came tumbling down
( the enron comparable to the European economy) this alliance was doomed.

I think Star Alliance is the best. Their lounges are amazing, their systemwide integration is superb. Go to ORD, FRA, SIN and you will see what I am talking about.

Also .... What alliance is JAL in?
 
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DaV
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:55 pm

If I'm not wrong, JAL shouldn't be in none of the current alliance... I hope they enter SkyTeam!

Rgds

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
vtual
Posts: 133
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Sun Feb 17, 2002 2:17 am

And where will go our miles ? We have 80.000+ miles on our QualiFlyer card, and we've better to use them the fastest as possible !

--
Vincent
 
deltairlines
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone?time For New Alliance

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:09 am

I think that there is a good chance that Swiss would go into SkyTeam. It seems that they are the most stable of the alliances out there (I think AF made money and DL is in one of the better positions in the American industry), and their Middle East network would compliment AF's strong African presence, which would create a strong international alliance from Europe. Don't forget that DL is number one over the Atlantic and 2 of Swiss's major North American cities (BOS and JFK) are both Delta (mini)hubs and can provide for ZRH connections and beyond. (Then again, the same is true for AA at both BOS and JFK).

Jeff
 
connector4you
Posts: 768
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RE: Qualiflyer Group Is Gone…time For New Alliances?

Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:55 am

It should be clear by now to everyone that "low-cost piranhas" are here to stay and take more and more away from "full-service big hungry sharks" on point-to-point hauls. Obviously the "low-cost" gets plenty of food usually at a driving distance from big hubs (LHR,FRA,AMS,ZRH,etc) where they can take advantage of lower airport operation fees. Therefore their fares can go where no "full-service" can dive and survive.

Question is what's left in the future for "full-service" on this market-segment….?

a) own and run profitably their own "low-cost"

b) quit entirely this market-segment and forget about it

c) disperse their long-haul operations from "ONE HUB ONLY" (with dense lurking piranhas) to SEVERAL AIRPORTS. Sort of a LONG HAUL POINT-TO-POINT concept if you want.

What do you think?

Cheers

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