klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I've averaged one-way yields for a month for the 3 cheapest airlines, nothing lingers below $320, Y4 could do $150 both ways, $350 in total and local people will pay for it. That's one of the things about this DTW network, there's a fine line between low fare and premium paying passengers, and I think Y4 could help those who don't necessarily want to pay $680 RT to make 2 stops or travel time that's horrendous. I think $360-$500 max is acceptable, if people are proactive in booking, they could get a whole family down for $1K. Or auto makers sending people to Jalisco could benefit with lower cost, nonstop options, and shorter travel time.

Then there is a chance for them to make the market, even without WCAA giving them hefty bonuses
After looking at what kind of expansion they have been doing and the kind of market trends they've been doing, even if the WCAA goes to discuss with Volaris potential plans they could very well be interested.


Well for anything to materialize I think the WCAA has to start the meeting out with "What do we need to do to make this happen" which I don't think is a stance they take when courting potential new service at DTW.
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ASQ400
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
Then there is a chance for them to make the market, even without WCAA giving them hefty bonuses
After looking at what kind of expansion they have been doing and the kind of market trends they've been doing, even if the WCAA goes to discuss with Volaris potential plans they could very well be interested.


Well for anything to materialize I think the WCAA has to start the meeting out with "What do we need to do to make this happen" which I don't think is a stance they take when courting potential new service at DTW.

Do they? If the route makes financial sense, the airline will WANT to do it
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:31 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
After looking at what kind of expansion they have been doing and the kind of market trends they've been doing, even if the WCAA goes to discuss with Volaris potential plans they could very well be interested.


Well for anything to materialize I think the WCAA has to start the meeting out with "What do we need to do to make this happen" which I don't think is a stance they take when courting potential new service at DTW.

Do they? If the route makes financial sense, the airline will WANT to do it



It's the airport's duty to present their case in such a way that makes DTW a viable option for potential new service that's why I said they need to approach every encounter with the attitude What do we need to do to make this happen and why don't you think Detroit will work for you and go from there.
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ASQ400
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:42 pm

klm617 wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Well for anything to materialize I think the WCAA has to start the meeting out with "What do we need to do to make this happen" which I don't think is a stance they take when courting potential new service at DTW.

Do they? If the route makes financial sense, the airline will WANT to do it



It's the airport's duty to present their case in such a way that makes DTW a viable option for potential new service that's why I said they need to approach every encounter with the attitude What do we need to do to make this happen and why don't you think Detroit will work for you and go from there.

And I'm saying that if this route makes sense, which GDL-DTW does, then the airline would approach them, and all WCAA needs to do is to be open to it.
TLV, BRU, ZRH, CDG, FRA, EWR, JFK, DEN, SFO, AUS, RNO, SEA, YYC, YYZ, IAH, ATL, IAD, DCA, ORD, SJC, SNA
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:05 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
Do they? If the route makes financial sense, the airline will WANT to do it



It's the airport's duty to present their case in such a way that makes DTW a viable option for potential new service that's why I said they need to approach every encounter with the attitude What do we need to do to make this happen and why don't you think Detroit will work for you and go from there.

And I'm saying that if this route makes sense, which GDL-DTW does, then the airline would approach them, and all WCAA needs to do is to be open to it.
An airport authority talks to an airline to tell them things they don't know, if the airline calls back with questions they're interested.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:08 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


It's the airport's duty to present their case in such a way that makes DTW a viable option for potential new service that's why I said they need to approach every encounter with the attitude What do we need to do to make this happen and why don't you think Detroit will work for you and go from there.

And I'm saying that if this route makes sense, which GDL-DTW does, then the airline would approach them, and all WCAA needs to do is to be open to it.
An airport authority talks to an airline to tell them things they don't know, if the airline calls back with questions they're interested.
Its not necessarily that easy, Y4 might not know a lot about DTW, but they could invite a meeting and discuss what they'd be dealing with. Some airlines will keep calling up ASD's, and that shows the airline has interest. On the route planner or networking side, when an ASD comes with questions, it shows they're interested, and further instills interest. In most cases, RPs will meet with ASDs and if the airline isn't interested they won't stay in touch.

I took a class regarding these types of things towards my Aviation Business degree, I'm not an RP or ASD, but I'd like to pursue it.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:44 am

UAs new SFO flight begins in only a few days. Service will initiate on the A319, upgauge to an A320, than to a 739, back to an A320 and an A319 in the winter months. How does this indicate how well competitors can do against Delta on premium routes? I.e. The potential for AS to do SAN or AA to do LAX, B6 to do JFK/MCO. How does this look with competition in this market going forward? Thoughts on the success of UA and SFO? Do you expect DLs SNA or AS's PDX flight to do well?
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:39 am

First post here, but long-time reader.

Since I am a Detroit-area native, it is good to see a thread on service to my hometown. While some of the posts here honestly make me cringe somewhat and I tend to gloss over them, I do hope that some logic can come out of this thread. Having grown up from the days of the Davey, Berry and Smith terminals, it has been remarkable to see what changes have been made to my home airport for the better. However, there is always room for improvement. I'll start with my wishlist.

Services
1) DL DTW-GDL (4x weekly on an A319) - I can see this coming to fruition with the auto industry ties. MTY has been surprisingly light however.
2) DL DTW-MUC year-round 763.
3) DL DTW-DUB
4) Return of KL / VS. Kind of ironic how some claim the ground service for them both is better here, but they happen to be staffed by DL agents.
5) AF 789 - It may happen someday. It's only one extra seat than the A343, and in coach no less.
6) LH resumption of 2x daily FRA, although I certainly don't object to the 744 service this summer.
7) AS DTW-SAN on a 738. I'm relieved that PDX has been announced by them as that will make visiting relatives much easier. I've slowly grown to get annoyed by connecting through MSP or SLC.
8) A few years ago I would've said TK on DTW-IST a few days a week with an A333, but laptop ban aside, I just don't think it is worth holding my breath over this with the political climate in Turkey. Though I could see plenty of Lebanese families making good use of this instead of flying via CDG on AF/DL

Amenities:
Since I fly primarily with DL, I can't really say too much for the North other than I wish the doors on arrivals were numbered like the Mac. It makes it worlds easier when a number is called/texted to me when picking up family members and friends.

1) The new Leo's by A54 is horrible. Probably new management, but it shouldn't take over 20 minutes to order a sandwich.
2) I'd love mobile passport to be here. I've used it once in SEA and have waxed poetic ever since.
3) The setup in customs is really not well designed for heavy periods. The U.S. side rarely has CBP officers manning the booths there. The entryway towards global entry seems to cross paths with everyone, leading to a mosh pit, especially on Saturday afternoons in the wintertime. When a flight arrives at either A40 or A38, the staff helping facilitate everyone through look visibly more stressed and agitated on top of the already convoluted maze surrounding them. Likely because there's not much space between the entrance of global entry and the escalator which can easily be a safety issue if things get overly backed up. When you exit, signs are everywhere and people look confused on exactly where to go. It's especially amusing when people
4) Clearer signage for the tram may help. Some of you may be surprised how many people forget to take the tram, and how much that determines people making their connection. I've seen some people with tight connections look totally gobsmacked when the tram is pointed out to them and it literally zooms over their head.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:50 pm

DTWorld wrote:
First post here, but long-time reader.

Since I am a Detroit-area native, it is good to see a thread on service to my hometown. While some of the posts here honestly make me cringe somewhat and I tend to gloss over them, I do hope that some logic can come out of this thread. Having grown up from the days of the Davey, Berry and Smith terminals, it has been remarkable to see what changes have been made to my home airport for the better. However, there is always room for improvement. I'll start with my wishlist.

Services
1) DL DTW-GDL (4x weekly on an A319) - I can see this coming to fruition with the auto industry ties. MTY has been surprisingly light however.
2) DL DTW-MUC year-round 763.
3) DL DTW-DUB
4) Return of KL / VS. Kind of ironic how some claim the ground service for them both is better here, but they happen to be staffed by DL agents.
5) AF 789 - It may happen someday. It's only one extra seat than the A343, and in coach no less.
6) LH resumption of 2x daily FRA, although I certainly don't object to the 744 service this summer.
7) AS DTW-SAN on a 738. I'm relieved that PDX has been announced by them as that will make visiting relatives much easier. I've slowly grown to get annoyed by connecting through MSP or SLC.
8) A few years ago I would've said TK on DTW-IST a few days a week with an A333, but laptop ban aside, I just don't think it is worth holding my breath over this with the political climate in Turkey. Though I could see plenty of Lebanese families making good use of this instead of flying via CDG on AF/DL

Amenities:
Since I fly primarily with DL, I can't really say too much for the North other than I wish the doors on arrivals were numbered like the Mac. It makes it worlds easier when a number is called/texted to me when picking up family members and friends.

1) The new Leo's by A54 is horrible. Probably new management, but it shouldn't take over 20 minutes to order a sandwich.
2) I'd love mobile passport to be here. I've used it once in SEA and have waxed poetic ever since.
3) The setup in customs is really not well designed for heavy periods. The U.S. side rarely has CBP officers manning the booths there. The entryway towards global entry seems to cross paths with everyone, leading to a mosh pit, especially on Saturday afternoons in the wintertime. When a flight arrives at either A40 or A38, the staff helping facilitate everyone through look visibly more stressed and agitated on top of the already convoluted maze surrounding them. Likely because there's not much space between the entrance of global entry and the escalator which can easily be a safety issue if things get overly backed up. When you exit, signs are everywhere and people look confused on exactly where to go. It's especially amusing when people
4) Clearer signage for the tram may help. Some of you may be surprised how many people forget to take the tram, and how much that determines people making their connection. I've seen some people with tight connections look totally gobsmacked when the tram is pointed out to them and it literally zooms over their head.
Good points, I agree with most of them. I'm not from the area but I frequently visit and have always visited since I was born to see family. Also welcome to the forums!

The new Coney Island does suck! I wished National came back, I miss getting my fairly priced breakfast before hitting my morning MCO departure.

DTW-GDL, at leased IMO, would be better done on Volaris 2x weekly to start. Its low cost and the population base in Detroit that travels to GDL probably would appreciate a lower cost option that could get a family of 4 to GDL for around $1K.

I remember flying in on NK the day of the AS inauguration and they said AS wasn't going to fly to one destination and one flight from Detroit and there would be future opportunities, now that SEA is 2x daily and PDX is coming, they stuck to that word. I suppose the departure time from SAN may have a reason as to why it would be difficult to time a red eye.

FRA on LH will be a 744 next summer too starting in March.

AF is doing the 777 to DTW starting in February, it's a general upgauge so that's good to see CDG can hold a 777 and 333 in the winter.

I've always thought RJ could get away with doing 3x weekly instead of 2. Any ME carrier doesn't seem like it'll happen right now, so why not increase what's currently st DTW?
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:44 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Surprisingly, DTW has one of the highest domestic LCC exposures in the US behind your usual Dallas, New York, and Orlando markets you can thank NK for that.


:confused: :confused: :confused:

DTW has amongst the least low cost competition of any major market; considerably less than its peers. For example, DTW has less than a quarter to half (depending on the season) the LCC capacity of MSP - a sharp contrast from a decade ago when the latter had minimal LCC presence. The primary reason NK has focused on DTW is because it represents its biggest opportunity.

flymco753 wrote:
UAs new SFO flight begins in only a few days. Service will initiate on the A319, upgauge to an A320, than to a 739, back to an A320 and an A319 in the winter months. How does this indicate how well competitors can do against Delta on premium routes? I.e. The potential for AS to do SAN or AA to do LAX, B6 to do JFK/MCO. How does this look with competition in this market going forward? Thoughts on the success of UA and SFO? Do you expect DLs SNA or AS's PDX flight to do well?


Historically, NW-DL carry half the local DTW/SFO market whereas UA captures 15%; NW/DL's market share on DTW/LAX is actually even less. The key difference is the size of the premium DL commands on the direct flights -- sometimes double that of its legacy competition. In many ways its surprising UA waited as long as they did to enter the market.

DTW/SFO would be a great opportunity to F9, arguably a better choice than CVG & CLE.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:42 pm

2 good questions to talk about.

1. Why has WN virtually had 0 addition/expansion at DTW in the last 3 years while markets of similar or smaller size continue to gain from WN?

2. Why hasn't G4 gone to DTW yet? Will they?
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
1. Why has WN virtually had 0 addition/expansion at DTW in the last 3 years while markets of similar or smaller size continue to gain from WN?


WN just barely set a record for enplanements in 2016; the 845,604 passengers who boarded WN's jets was exactly 81 more than in 2007, when a combined 845,523 travelers traveled WN & FL. Unfortunately, WN is running behind its 2017 pace and given stagnant capacity the remainder of the year coupled with the seasonal suspension of LAS, it's not likely they'll surpass last year's coupe.

Historically, WN has had limited success in Detroit. 30 years ago, they choose DET to be their Midwestern gateway, envisioning it would have the same impact for them that MDW had for Midway Airlines. Detroit failed to deliver its promise to develop DET, Midway went bust and WN established a mammoth hub at a re-built MDW. Things couldn't have worked out better for them, especially given the direction SE Michigan's economy took during this timeframe.

WN (and DTW) was gate restained at DTW in the 1990s, so it paid for (but was reimburse via PFC) the expansion of Concourse A, which opened in 1998. Enplanements immediately grew by 15%, but growth stalled and by 2003 (following 9-11), WN shrunk to its smallest position at DTW since the mid-1990s. WN embarked on an ill-fated expansion at DTW in 2007 (including the MCO service, discussed extensively in previous installments) but regressed to its late 1980s/early 1990s form shortly thereafter.

It's pretty telling that in 2007, WN + FL was a larger carrier (606,133 enplanements for WN + 239,410 for FL = 845,543 total) at DTW than it will be ten years later, in 2017. Meanwhile, WN is on pace to enplane more than 1,1M passengers at MSP, a market they did not serve a decade ago.

Reality is, DTW is a market that just hasn't worked out for WN. This is largely because the local business community has never embraced WN* (e.g. GM's memos from when it was pumping money into ProAir) whereas NK long served the markets leisure travelers flew to most, at prices WN couldn't match.

*I'm guilty of this. Either me or one of my co-workers travels to Chicago weekly; these are day trips to a satellite office on the loop. (A) The North Terminal is more convenient than the McNamara Terminal, since our parking contract is with a vendor off Merriman Road; additionally, it's significantly faster to navigate the North Terminal -- including the process of getting to security, walking to the gate & often landing / taxing (one of my biggest pet peeves is arriving on DL after midnight on the runway in the middle of nowhere, spending 20 minutes taxing to the far ends of the terminal and having to hoof it since the tram's down for the night); (B) Midway is more convenient than O'Hare to navigate and get to our destination in the Loop; (C) WN offers a superior onboard product to DL and UA on this route - even on a fully loaded 738, everybody receives a drink and peanuts. Meanwhile, the flight's too short for Main Cabin service even on a DL CR7 and often FA are too lazy to serve even F or C+. UA tends to be hit-or-miss -- sometimes full beverage service, sometimes just water service, sometimes no service. And yet I rarely, rarely, rarely fly WN...

2. Why hasn't G4 gone to DTW yet? Will they?


DTW isn't the type of market G4 seeks out; there's too much ULCC competition. G4 does serve Metro Detroit via FNT & TOL.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:29 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
1. Why has WN virtually had 0 addition/expansion at DTW in the last 3 years while markets of similar or smaller size continue to gain from WN?


WN just barely set a record for enplanements in 2016; the 845,604 passengers who boarded WN's jets was exactly 81 more than in 2007, when a combined 845,523 travelers traveled WN & FL. Unfortunately, WN is running behind its 2017 pace and given stagnant capacity the remainder of the year coupled with the seasonal suspension of LAS, it's not likely they'll surpass last year's coupe.

Historically, WN has had limited success in Detroit. 30 years ago, they choose DET to be their Midwestern gateway, envisioning it would have the same impact for them that MDW had for Midway Airlines. Detroit failed to deliver its promise to develop DET, Midway went bust and WN established a mammoth hub at a re-built MDW. Things couldn't have worked out better for them, especially given the direction SE Michigan's economy took during this timeframe.

WN (and DTW) was gate restained at DTW in the 1990s, so it paid for (but was reimburse via PFC) the expansion of Concourse A, which opened in 1998. Enplanements immediately grew by 15%, but growth stalled and by 2003 (following 9-11), WN shrunk to its smallest position at DTW since the mid-1990s. WN embarked on an ill-fated expansion at DTW in 2007 (including the MCO service, discussed extensively in previous installments) but regressed to its late 1980s/early 1990s form shortly thereafter.

It's pretty telling that in 2007, WN + FL was a larger carrier (606,133 enplanements for WN + 239,410 for FL = 845,543 total) at DTW than it will be ten years later, in 2017. Meanwhile, WN is on pace to enplane more than 1,1M passengers at MSP, a market they did not serve a decade ago.

Reality is, DTW is a market that just hasn't worked out for WN. This is largely because the local business community has never embraced WN* (e.g. GM's memos from when it was pumping money into ProAir) whereas NK long served the markets leisure travelers flew to most, at prices WN couldn't match.

*I'm guilty of this. Either me or one of my co-workers travels to Chicago weekly; these are day trips to a satellite office on the loop. (A) The North Terminal is more convenient than the McNamara Terminal, since our parking contract is with a vendor off Merriman Road; additionally, it's significantly faster to navigate the North Terminal -- including the process of getting to security, walking to the gate & often landing / taxing (one of my biggest pet peeves is arriving on DL after midnight on the runway in the middle of nowhere, spending 20 minutes taxing to the far ends of the terminal and having to hoof it since the tram's down for the night); (B) Midway is more convenient than O'Hare to navigate and get to our destination in the Loop; (C) WN offers a superior onboard product to DL and UA on this route - even on a fully loaded 738, everybody receives a drink and peanuts. Meanwhile, the flight's too short for Main Cabin service even on a DL CR7 and often FA are too lazy to serve even F or C+. UA tends to be hit-or-miss -- sometimes full beverage service, sometimes just water service, sometimes no service. And yet I rarely, rarely, rarely fly WN...

2. Why hasn't G4 gone to DTW yet? Will they?


DTW isn't the type of market G4 seeks out; there's too much ULCC competition. G4 does serve Metro Detroit via FNT & TOL.


So my question would be why not fly Southwest and support their operation at FTW if it is far superior to the Delta service.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:34 pm

I was just looking at a PVD thread and it is rather interesting as they have almost as many international destinations as domestic ones. PVD and SWF are now being used as alternative to BOS and NYC so my question is why couldn't Detroit serve this same purpose for Chicago. Why can't they market the airport as a much better alternative than servicing Chicago less congestion and it is closer to Europe so they can use their 737s. There are inexpensive bus and trains running from Detroit to Chicago which could bring these travels to Detroit to better airfare options as PVD and SWF do for BOS and NYC.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:34 pm

klm617 wrote:
So my question would be why not fly Southwest and support their operation at FTW if it is far superior to the Delta service.


An addiction to SkyMiles / SkyBonus.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
I was just looking at a PVD thread and it is rather interesting as they have almost as many international destinations as domestic ones. PVD and SWF are now being used as alternative to BOS and NYC so my question is why couldn't Detroit serve this same purpose for Chicago. Why can't they market the airport as a much better alternative than servicing Chicago less congestion and it is closer to Europe so they can use their 737s. There are inexpensive bus and trains running from Detroit to Chicago which could bring these travels to Detroit to better airfare options as PVD and SWF do for BOS and NYC.


MKE/RFD/SBN/MDW and even IND and are better to suited to serve as an alternate to ORD than DTW, just based on distance alone. And all of those airports/cities have bus/train transit to Chicago. Detroit to Chicago is 4:20 without including stops and traffic, SWF is 1:30 from NYC and PVD is 1 hour from BOS, hardly comparable to a 4-6 hour drive from Detroit to ORD (train transit is longer with 5-6:30 ride)
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:49 am

compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So my question would be why not fly Southwest and support their operation at FTW if it is far superior to the Delta service.


An addiction to SkyMiles / SkyBonus.



I have to admit I am also guilty of this and that's why I keep pushing for more skyteam options so I can still collect miles but not have to fly Delta but I am not loyal to the point of when I can save money if someone can provide better service at a better price I will forego the miles.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:45 pm

klm617 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So my question would be why not fly Southwest and support their operation at FTW if it is far superior to the Delta service.


An addiction to SkyMiles / SkyBonus.



I have to admit I am also guilty of this and that's why I keep pushing for more skyteam options so I can still collect miles but not have to fly Delta but I am not loyal to the point of when I can save money if someone can provide better service at a better price I will forego the miles.
I have Skymiles, but I only seem to use them on DL only because I don't travel beyond the Caribbean and Central America for vacation. Have yet to go to Europe or South America.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:01 pm

Oversimplified a bit, but if you are a price conscious customer, NK does a very good job offering numerous destinations from DTW at affordable prices. Other LCC are hesitant to compete, because of the breadth of offerings and low fares offered by NK.

If you are not as concerned about fares, DL obviously does a pretty good job connecting you to almost anywhere the Detroit market could realistically support. (Yes there are a few notable exceptions, but not many). And while I know there are some DL haters, the majority of people find their product and reliability to be above average and pretty good. The biggest problem with DL at DTW is the monopolistic high fares.... but then again if you are truly cost concerned you can take NK domestically.

The one missing hole at DTW is LCC for international service (beyond Caribbean/Latin American Beach Destinations). Because NK doesn't fly TransAtlantic or TransPacific, DL and their higher prices are the only option from DTW. So adding in Norwegian/WoW/etc. would fill in the biggest missing hole.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:20 pm

Delta has added a domestic 747 run from LAX to DTW on 9/5. It's a red eye that arrives at 6:40 AM. I am booked on it.
 
compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:00 pm

As I wrote elsewhere:

I will be flying LAX-DTW on 9/5 and I noticed the 744 as an option a couple weeks ago. I've been debating whether or not to book this flight -- the other redeye is better timed for me and will save a few bucks; I'd be sorely disappointed if this flight changed to a 737/757.

What's strange is that you cannot select a seat assignment, although somebody who did book themselves onto this flight reported one was assigned to them (they cannot change it). I heavily suspect that this is the retirement flight of N662US, which is scheduled to end service that day after 29-years with NW/DL, and the seats are being blocked for employees.

FWIW, First Class was previously available for sale and as of time this posting was written is still bookable via Orbitz for OW$605 (although the sale may not go through).
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:59 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

An addiction to SkyMiles / SkyBonus.



I have to admit I am also guilty of this and that's why I keep pushing for more skyteam options so I can still collect miles but not have to fly Delta but I am not loyal to the point of when I can save money if someone can provide better service at a better price I will forego the miles.
I have Skymiles, but I only seem to use them on DL only because I don't travel beyond the Caribbean and Central America for vacation. Have yet to go to Europe or South America.



For the most part I use mine flying back ad forth to Frankfurt
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:05 am

I I found this list in another thread and it illustrates how much Detroit is underserved compared to the other markets on this list and the flight options they have. One thing to note is the lack of LCC options in the Detroit market as even though we are towards the top of the list the income level of this region is much lower than the rest of these top tier markets I'm sure. So I'm pretty sure there is an untapped market here for any LCC that would come in and expand. The Detroit market has more than enough capacity to cater to the business market but it severely lack LCC capacity something that needs to be addressed.

Using the CSA population numbers, you have the following list:

1 NYC-23.7mil
2 LA-18.7mil

3 Chicago-9.9mil
4 Washington/Baltimore-9.7mil
5 SanFran/Bay area-8.8 mil
6 Boston-8.2mil
7 Dallas/FtWorth-7.7mil
8 Philadelphia-7.2mil
9 Houston-6.9mil
10 Miami-6.7 mil
11 Atlanta-6.4mil
12 Detroit-5.3mil
13 Seattle-4.7mil
14 Minneapolis/StPaul-3.9 mil
15 Denver-3.4mil
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:02 pm

UA begins SFO today.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
UA begins SFO today.


Today's eastbound flight was booked around 80% and the westbound is a tad higher. Loads on upcoming eastbound flights are pretty solid... not true of the eastbound -- Saturday's DTW-SFO would make even a CRJ blush.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:26 pm

I wonder if Spirit could make DTW-BNA work. That's of course NK decides to start Nashville service.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:32 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
UA begins SFO today.


Today's eastbound flight was booked around 80% and the westbound is a tad higher. Loads on upcoming eastbound flights are pretty solid... not true of the eastbound -- Saturday's DTW-SFO would make even a CRJ blush.
They've upgraded the flight to a 739 which is promising, hopefully they can make SFO permanent.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:34 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
I wonder if Spirit could make DTW-BNA work. That's of course NK decides to start Nashville service.
I think yes, they could easily price RT's at $150 and use a densely configured A320. The next question is, what will DL do? More than likely nothing with the type of aircraft other than remove all of the CRJs and do all 717s or 319s, but price wise they could match. Though, NK is so strong on the DTW end, they could probably do well.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:42 pm

In the coming weeks, AM has subbed in the 738/7S8 for MEX, more often than not.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:49 pm

NK adds a 4th winter MCO flight.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:59 pm

Also looks like their MSP flight is extending through the winter, it's quite possible this may be year round.

4 daily on RSW too
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:27 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Also looks like their MSP flight is extending through the winter, it's quite possible this may be year round.

4 daily on RSW too



Great to see this expansion now if we could get some more international traffic that would be good.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:13 pm

flymco753 wrote:
NK adds a 4th winter MCO flight.


Looks like NK is adjusting its schedules; sadly, the second DTW/LAX flight is dropped late fall.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:15 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
NK adds a 4th winter MCO flight.


Looks like NK is adjusting its schedules; sadly, the second DTW/LAX flight is dropped late fall.
They gave it a shot for the summer, maybe it's something they can be successful at so next time they could extend it. I don't think MCO has gone 4x on NK since the white/blue livery era on the t-tails. The a/c type on MCO is 4x (321, 320, 2x 319). MSP is one of those ones where it could have always used a second carrier year round and an LCC at that fits perfectly.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:50 pm

0.2% increase in passenger totals YTD compared to 2016, it's hopeful that AM, NK, UA, AS and the DL add will make a larger increase than that.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Ok, so here's my long term outlook on DTWs air service, as I mature with knowledge in the air service/planning/networking fields, this should give a better perspective than my outlooks in the past.

DL could add ELP, daily 319; calculating the avg. fare in 2016 quarters, the route doesn't have a low yield, PDEW averages about 105/day, and the A319 for DL has 132 seats, 75% of the aircraft would be O&D. Traffic from ELP would include Southern NM.

DL could also add ABQ, SJC, TUS, RNO and GEG eventually, but the problem right now with these destinations is either; 1. presence to these are already weak from SLC, MSP, or ATL, 2. yields are too low to justify service, 3. PDEW may be too small to justify an aircraft larger than an A319 (GEG and RNO especially). SJC is interesting because DL probably wouldn't add it unless AS did, and I'm sure AS/VX would do SFO before SJC, if AS really wanted to strengthen things up, which is highly unlikely, they could turn an E175 at ABQ and send it to DTW than back west, but where's the feed? TUS surprisingly averages about 110 PDEW but it's similar to ABQ, it's presence from ATL & SLC is weak and MSP is seasonal, why add DTW?

DL could strengthen YVR next year, because this year they're doing 2 Saturday flights and near daily around the 4th of July, what makes sense out of that is there's obviously some growth in the market, maybe next year the route could go daily during the summer as opposed to strictly Saturday.

With the exception of a few international destinations, there's nowhere else to go besides a few Saturday Caribbean flights and a few Mexico/Central America places. AM/DL would be a good fit for GDL, but I don't think that's what people are looking for when traveling to Jalisco, so I think Y4 is a better option because it's low cost and non daily., For DTW to grow more, LCCs may be the way to go. SJO has low yields and weak service from ATL. AUA/SXM/STT are really the only 3 Caribbean destinations that could happen but wont unless DL could compete with someone like DL does with SY at MSP. I've always found YYC and YEG interesting but DL won't do it or let WS do it because MSP service is not the strongest, so it would be to protect MSPs services.

For Asia, ICN will probably get a 2nd daily, I don't know if it would be DL or KE, one or the other since it's metal neutral anyhow.

Europe is an interesting story, there's decent amount of local traffic going to DUB, BCN, and DUS. DUB would be better served by EI, DL would probably add it if EI did, same goes for BCN but DY has no interest in DTW at this time and IB seems highly unlikely, so BCN would probably not happen. DUS is different, there is AB but AB isn't in a good position, reliability is key for service at an airport, and NW tried it and failed so this may be a gap left open.

TLV is weird, there's a lot of traffic but not enough to justify a nonstop and DL connections at JFK is "easy enough". Not to mention FRA, AMS, CDG and FCO all can get you to TLV in one stop and shorter connection times.

Forget the ME right now, with the Electronic bans, travel bans, and what have you, it's obviously decreasing demand to the Middle East, 2x weekly AMM on a 787 is sufficient enough for the population base needing to be served. This could hurt chances of a better India connection than FRA and CDG, for now.

I feel like WW or FI would happen eventually, and it would benefit DTW and could stimulate some markets and bring in some of that leakage from YYZ and ORD.

Competition in the US of course will persist for DTW, NK will add some more flights. B6 could do JFK and eventually MCO, AS could do SAN eventually, F9 would maybe add another FL destination like TPA and split it with RSW. G4 probably wont happen because they're already in close by FNT and TOL. I don't see WN adding anything, they've been pretty consistent with the current service. I still think AA will do LAX, maybe JFK. There's nothing more for UA to add. That's really it.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:27 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Ok, so here's my long term outlook on DTWs air service, as I mature with knowledge in the air service/planning/networking fields, this should give a better perspective than my outlooks in the past.

DL could add ELP, daily 319; calculating the avg. fare in 2016 quarters, the route doesn't have a low yield, PDEW averages about 105/day, and the A319 for DL has 132 seats, 75% of the aircraft would be O&D. Traffic from ELP would include Southern NM.

DL could also add ABQ, SJC, TUS, RNO and GEG eventually, but the problem right now with these destinations is either; 1. presence to these are already weak from SLC, MSP, or ATL, 2. yields are too low to justify service, 3. PDEW may be too small to justify an aircraft larger than an A319 (GEG and RNO especially). SJC is interesting because DL probably wouldn't add it unless AS did, and I'm sure AS/VX would do SFO before SJC, if AS really wanted to strengthen things up, which is highly unlikely, they could turn an E175 at ABQ and send it to DTW than back west, but where's the feed? TUS surprisingly averages about 110 PDEW but it's similar to ABQ, it's presence from ATL & SLC is weak and MSP is seasonal, why add DTW?

DL could strengthen YVR next year, because this year they're doing 2 Saturday flights and near daily around the 4th of July, what makes sense out of that is there's obviously some growth in the market, maybe next year the route could go daily during the summer as opposed to strictly Saturday.

With the exception of a few international destinations, there's nowhere else to go besides a few Saturday Caribbean flights and a few Mexico/Central America places. AM/DL would be a good fit for GDL, but I don't think that's what people are looking for when traveling to Jalisco, so I think Y4 is a better option because it's low cost and non daily., For DTW to grow more, LCCs may be the way to go. SJO has low yields and weak service from ATL. AUA/SXM/STT are really the only 3 Caribbean destinations that could happen but wont unless DL could compete with someone like DL does with SY at MSP. I've always found YYC and YEG interesting but DL won't do it or let WS do it because MSP service is not the strongest, so it would be to protect MSPs services.

For Asia, ICN will probably get a 2nd daily, I don't know if it would be DL or KE, one or the other since it's metal neutral anyhow.

Europe is an interesting story, there's decent amount of local traffic going to DUB, BCN, and DUS. DUB would be better served by EI, DL would probably add it if EI did, same goes for BCN but DY has no interest in DTW at this time and IB seems highly unlikely, so BCN would probably not happen. DUS is different, there is AB but AB isn't in a good position, reliability is key for service at an airport, and NW tried it and failed so this may be a gap left open.

TLV is weird, there's a lot of traffic but not enough to justify a nonstop and DL connections at JFK is "easy enough". Not to mention FRA, AMS, CDG and FCO all can get you to TLV in one stop and shorter connection times.

Forget the ME right now, with the Electronic bans, travel bans, and what have you, it's obviously decreasing demand to the Middle East, 2x weekly AMM on a 787 is sufficient enough for the population base needing to be served. This could hurt chances of a better India connection than FRA and CDG, for now.

I feel like WW or FI would happen eventually, and it would benefit DTW and could stimulate some markets and bring in some of that leakage from YYZ and ORD.

Competition in the US of course will persist for DTW, NK will add some more flights. B6 could do JFK and eventually MCO, AS could do SAN eventually, F9 would maybe add another FL destination like TPA and split it with RSW. G4 probably wont happen because they're already in close by FNT and TOL. I don't see WN adding anything, they've been pretty consistent with the current service. I still think AA will do LAX, maybe JFK. There's nothing more for UA to add. That's really it.


Good post. To get some of these flight additions, at some point the WCAA would have to offer some $ incentives to get the routes off the ground. Several of the routes mentioned would no doubt be profitable, but if WCAA doesn't make the $ nudge, the airlines won't take the risk.

On that topic, there are several mentioned destinations that could work nonstop from DTW, but DL pax are routed over other hubs to keep those flights afloat. My question is, if WCAA offered DL $ to fly a YYC or ELP, would DL actually take it, and add the DTW direct if it meant having to drop that flight from another DL hub?

On the topic of WCAA incentives, I still believe an Iceland/European LCC brings in the most bang for the buck... as many of the passengers would come from current leakage to ORD and YYZ.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:30 pm

I'm confident Spirit will add more and exciting new destinations like BNA, AUS, RDU and JAX while becoming another carrier on SAN, BDL, EWR, and eventually PDX and PHX. I can see some potential in NK going to more of the Caribbean out of DTW in the future too.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:44 pm

kavok wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Ok, so here's my long term outlook on DTWs air service, as I mature with knowledge in the air service/planning/networking fields, this should give a better perspective than my outlooks in the past.

DL could add ELP, daily 319; calculating the avg. fare in 2016 quarters, the route doesn't have a low yield, PDEW averages about 105/day, and the A319 for DL has 132 seats, 75% of the aircraft would be O&D. Traffic from ELP would include Southern NM.

DL could also add ABQ, SJC, TUS, RNO and GEG eventually, but the problem right now with these destinations is either; 1. presence to these are already weak from SLC, MSP, or ATL, 2. yields are too low to justify service, 3. PDEW may be too small to justify an aircraft larger than an A319 (GEG and RNO especially). SJC is interesting because DL probably wouldn't add it unless AS did, and I'm sure AS/VX would do SFO before SJC, if AS really wanted to strengthen things up, which is highly unlikely, they could turn an E175 at ABQ and send it to DTW than back west, but where's the feed? TUS surprisingly averages about 110 PDEW but it's similar to ABQ, it's presence from ATL & SLC is weak and MSP is seasonal, why add DTW?

DL could strengthen YVR next year, because this year they're doing 2 Saturday flights and near daily around the 4th of July, what makes sense out of that is there's obviously some growth in the market, maybe next year the route could go daily during the summer as opposed to strictly Saturday.

With the exception of a few international destinations, there's nowhere else to go besides a few Saturday Caribbean flights and a few Mexico/Central America places. AM/DL would be a good fit for GDL, but I don't think that's what people are looking for when traveling to Jalisco, so I think Y4 is a better option because it's low cost and non daily., For DTW to grow more, LCCs may be the way to go. SJO has low yields and weak service from ATL. AUA/SXM/STT are really the only 3 Caribbean destinations that could happen but wont unless DL could compete with someone like DL does with SY at MSP. I've always found YYC and YEG interesting but DL won't do it or let WS do it because MSP service is not the strongest, so it would be to protect MSPs services.

For Asia, ICN will probably get a 2nd daily, I don't know if it would be DL or KE, one or the other since it's metal neutral anyhow.

Europe is an interesting story, there's decent amount of local traffic going to DUB, BCN, and DUS. DUB would be better served by EI, DL would probably add it if EI did, same goes for BCN but DY has no interest in DTW at this time and IB seems highly unlikely, so BCN would probably not happen. DUS is different, there is AB but AB isn't in a good position, reliability is key for service at an airport, and NW tried it and failed so this may be a gap left open.

TLV is weird, there's a lot of traffic but not enough to justify a nonstop and DL connections at JFK is "easy enough". Not to mention FRA, AMS, CDG and FCO all can get you to TLV in one stop and shorter connection times.

Forget the ME right now, with the Electronic bans, travel bans, and what have you, it's obviously decreasing demand to the Middle East, 2x weekly AMM on a 787 is sufficient enough for the population base needing to be served. This could hurt chances of a better India connection than FRA and CDG, for now.

I feel like WW or FI would happen eventually, and it would benefit DTW and could stimulate some markets and bring in some of that leakage from YYZ and ORD.

Competition in the US of course will persist for DTW, NK will add some more flights. B6 could do JFK and eventually MCO, AS could do SAN eventually, F9 would maybe add another FL destination like TPA and split it with RSW. G4 probably wont happen because they're already in close by FNT and TOL. I don't see WN adding anything, they've been pretty consistent with the current service. I still think AA will do LAX, maybe JFK. There's nothing more for UA to add. That's really it.


Good post. To get some of these flight additions, at some point the WCAA would have to offer some $ incentives to get the routes off the ground. Several of the routes mentioned would no doubt be profitable, but if WCAA doesn't make the $ nudge, the airlines won't take the risk.

On that topic, there are several mentioned destinations that could work nonstop from DTW, but DL pax are routed over other hubs to keep those flights afloat. My question is, if WCAA offered DL $ to fly a YYC or ELP, would DL actually take it, and add the DTW direct if it meant having to drop that flight from another DL hub?

On the topic of WCAA incentives, I still believe an Iceland/European LCC brings in the most bang for the buck... as many of the passengers would come from current leakage to ORD and YYZ.
Thank you for the reply, I was looking through MIDT numbers and that's where I discovered YYC being as large as it is. I want to put it this way, BNA can get YYC on WS and granted they're not a DL hub, but if WS did a codeshare with DL on DTW-YYC, than you'll have people connecting at DTW because BNA-DTW is stronger than BNA-MSP.

I am confident DTW will get a Euro LCC very soon, it's virtually the largest market east of the Mississippi without Low Cost service to Europe, and that's a large part of Detroit, a lot of passengers in the Detroit area are low cost travelers, hence why LF's on NK and F9 are great and they continue to expand at DTW. Y4 would do good for DTW too since it could get a family of 4 to Guadalajara for around $1K.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:03 pm

DTW-NRT is the first A350 route for DL!
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:00 am

flymco753 wrote:
DTW-NRT is the first A350 route for DL!

I'm surprised. It seemed like the kind of route where they'd keep more seats for a while, what with NRT still having its Intra-Asia flights. PEK was where my money was.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:34 pm

LH has 747 service loaded next Spring on FRA, so the queen won't be leaving DTW after all, but perhaps on another airline.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:
2 good questions to talk about.

1. Why has WN virtually had 0 addition/expansion at DTW in the last 3 years while markets of similar or smaller size continue to gain from WN?

2. Why hasn't G4 gone to DTW yet? Will they?


Southwest did add daily nonstop service to DTW from its home base at Dallas Love Field back on August 9, 2015.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:51 pm

jplatts wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
2 good questions to talk about.

1. Why has WN virtually had 0 addition/expansion at DTW in the last 3 years while markets of similar or smaller size continue to gain from WN?

2. Why hasn't G4 gone to DTW yet? Will they?


Southwest did add daily nonstop service to DTW from its home base at Dallas Love Field back on August 9, 2015.
They did, and LFs from a previous post show that DTW-DAL is in the 90's, the Saturday winter seasonal MCO flight is in the 90's, yet they won't expand or upsize in these markets compared to other markets which proved my point on 0 additions but in terms of expansions, nothing out of the box has happened for WN at DTW, at the very least DTW should have MCO daily from January to April as opposed to Saturday's as well as TPA which only has 2 carriers; DL and NK.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:28 pm

ASQ400 wrote:
I'm surprised. It seemed like the kind of route where they'd keep more seats for a while, what with NRT still having its Intra-Asia flights. PEK was where my money was.


What on Earth would leave you to believe that? NRT currently operates with the 376-seat 744, whereas PEK utilizes the 234-seat 332. Quite frankly, I find it surprising that DL would deploy the 306-seat 359 to PEK -- that's a big jump in capacity relative to what DL's been using.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:23 am

compensateme wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I'm surprised. It seemed like the kind of route where they'd keep more seats for a while, what with NRT still having its Intra-Asia flights. PEK was where my money was.


What on Earth would leave you to believe that? NRT currently operates with the 376-seat 744, whereas PEK utilizes the 234-seat 332. Quite frankly, I find it surprising that DL would deploy the 306-seat 359 to PEK -- that's a big jump in capacity relative to what DL's been using.

Two skyteam partners (China Southern, China Eastern) are there.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:28 am

ASQ400 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
ASQ400 wrote:
I'm surprised. It seemed like the kind of route where they'd keep more seats for a while, what with NRT still having its Intra-Asia flights. PEK was where my money was.


What on Earth would leave you to believe that? NRT currently operates with the 376-seat 744, whereas PEK utilizes the 234-seat 332. Quite frankly, I find it surprising that DL would deploy the 306-seat 359 to PEK -- that's a big jump in capacity relative to what DL's been using.

Two skyteam partners (China Southern, China Eastern) are there.
I think if DL ever signed a JV with MU than they could strengthen DTW by adding a second PVG flight, but as of right now I think a second flight to ICN on a KE 777 is way more likely.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 pm

Big win for FNT Allegiant announces FNT-PGD
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
Big win for FNT Allegiant announces FNT-PGD
I realized something, maybe this is the reason G4 doesn't do DTW, maybe the lack of travers going from Detroit to Punta Gorda and Sanford is the reason they don't fly to DTW. Most people in Detroit use MCO and RSW and it would make no sense to drive out of the way to SFB if you live in the corridor between Downtown Orlando and Tampa. FLL already has enough seats in correlation to PDEW, the only route that would probably work is PIE, but I wouldn't expect them to just add PIE with JAX and AUS, it would make no sense for G4 which in my opinion is why they don't fly to DTW. I'm conveniently located about 20 minutes south west of MCO also never would I go to SFB to catch a flight where I have both NK and F9 doing low cost at MCO direclty to DTW which is also located closer to family.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:34 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I realized something, maybe this is the reason G4 doesn't do DTW, maybe the lack of travers going from Detroit to Punta Gorda and Sanford is the reason they don't fly to DTW. Most people in Detroit use MCO and RSW and it would make no sense to drive out of the way to SFB if you live in the corridor between Downtown Orlando and Tampa. FLL already has enough seats in correlation to PDEW, the only route that would probably work is PIE, but I wouldn't expect them to just add PIE with JAX and AUS, it would make no sense for G4 which in my opinion is why they don't fly to DTW. I'm conveniently located about 20 minutes south west of MCO also never would I go to SFB to catch a flight where I have both NK and F9 doing low cost at MCO direclty to DTW which is also located closer to family.


Haven't we been through this before? G4's niche is linking smaller (and select medium-sized), low-cost airports to "sun and fun" (Florida, LAS, LAX, etc.) destinations. DTW doesn't fit this model -- it's a very large, costly airport to operate from and it doesn't provide the "free" advertising that G4 thrives on. For example - when I'm home and at the gym during the noon hour, I see multiple commercials (across the channels) for FNT; these commercials very prominently feature G4 "...get to the Orlando and Tampa areas from here for as low as $39, the lowest fares in Michigan." G4 thrives off that free advertising*** -- in fact, it's the #1 way their passengers hear about the service.

Practically nobody flies G4 to go to Sanford, FL and few people fly into Punta Gorda to vacation there -- they merely serve as gateways into the Orlando and Fort Myers areas, respectively. It's just that the use of these secondary airports enables G4 to provide lower fares, which attracts budget-minder travelers. (Remember, during the Great Recession NK acknowledged it might move to SFB). Which is the problem -- DTW has sufficient low-cost service into MCO, TPA & RSW. Until G4's business model changes, they're not coming here.

***I know somebody's going to respond 'it's really not free advertising because G4's fees are paid into FNT's budget, which is used to pay for advertising.' Wrong. FNT has historically relied on marketing campaigns, even during the periods its service was primarily turboprops to DTW; thus, it would be paying for marketing, anyway. Not to mention that a large chunk of its budget comes from county taxpayers (not atypical of community airports).
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.

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