compensateme
Posts: 2146
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:03 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Another bright note, DL schedules SAN and PHX 321 service next summer, so that'll be 5 321 rotations, regardless if they are removed they'll be placed on ATL, so you'll start seeing more 321s around DTW.

DL also is doing the E7W from DFW next summer, so it'll be a change in scenery.


Historically, airlines' summer season ran from Memorial Day through Labor Day. In the past few years, DL's ran multiple schedules: an early summer that lasts throughout June, a peak summer that runs July through mid-August and a late summer than runs from mid-August through Labor Day. The summer schedule we're referring to is actually early summer, although DL's rolling it over into July (a change from the past when it rolled over the prior year schedule).

I wouldn't get too excited over the equipment at this point -- DL's aggressive in making changes, often to the point of right before bidding out the flights. Most of my trips are booked either far out (in which I expect schedule changes) or short notice (in which schedules are finite) but around Memorial Day each of the past two years, I booked a pair of summer vacations: last year to the Gold Coast and this year to the Gulf Coast. Last year I specifically choose the late flight even though the departure time was undesirable because I felt it'd be the last time we'd get to enjoy a domestic 767 as a family -- and it ended up changing to the 753. This year I picked a 319 to MSY and it morphed into a CR9 -- if I had known that, I would've put up with the connection at ATL and flown direct into GPT.

The moral of the story? Unless you're traveling within 30 days, don't plan trips on DL based upon equipment!!
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
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flymco753
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:58 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Another bright note, DL schedules SAN and PHX 321 service next summer, so that'll be 5 321 rotations, regardless if they are removed they'll be placed on ATL, so you'll start seeing more 321s around DTW.

DL also is doing the E7W from DFW next summer, so it'll be a change in scenery.


Historically, airlines' summer season ran from Memorial Day through Labor Day. In the past few years, DL's ran multiple schedules: an early summer that lasts throughout June, a peak summer that runs July through mid-August and a late summer than runs from mid-August through Labor Day. The summer schedule we're referring to is actually early summer, although DL's rolling it over into July (a change from the past when it rolled over the prior year schedule).

I wouldn't get too excited over the equipment at this point -- DL's aggressive in making changes, often to the point of right before bidding out the flights. Most of my trips are booked either far out (in which I expect schedule changes) or short notice (in which schedules are finite) but around Memorial Day each of the past two years, I booked a pair of summer vacations: last year to the Gold Coast and this year to the Gulf Coast. Last year I specifically choose the late flight even though the departure time was undesirable because I felt it'd be the last time we'd get to enjoy a domestic 767 as a family -- and it ended up changing to the 753. This year I picked a 319 to MSY and it morphed into a CR9 -- if I had known that, I would've put up with the connection at ATL and flown direct into GPT.

The moral of the story? Unless you're traveling within 30 days, don't plan trips on DL based upon equipment!!
We'll see what happens with it, if it sticks, it'll be the first E7W route for DL to DTW, I see the aircraft flows through DFW from LAX, so it appears to take over a Compass segment, but like you said, we'll see.

The 321 is a different story, I bet that they won't be on SAN and PHX, but TPA and FLL because there's so many M90's in next summers schedule.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
compensateme
Posts: 2146
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
We'll see what happens with it, if it sticks, it'll be the first E7W route for DL to DTW, I see the aircraft flows through DFW from LAX, so it appears to take over a Compass segment, but like you said, we'll see.

The 321 is a different story, I bet that they won't be on SAN and PHX, but TPA and FLL because there's so many M90's in next summers schedule.


Equipment changes are common; last fall we discussed how DL was intending to operate STL as 5x717 this summer. After multiple schedule changes, it morphed into 3xCR7 / 2xCR9 and 1xM88 -- a similar number of seats but a heck of a lot more regional jets. That said, there's a high level of predictability of what equipment you'll be; of course, there's always curveballs -- FLL operated primarily with 757, 753 and the occasional 320 before transitioning to M90 this year.

Ultimately, with 123 A321 coming into the system within the next few years, they will make appearances here.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
DTWorld
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:34 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Puissance wrote:
I have to give credit to RJ. My daughter just bought a ticket to Greece on them in March for $503. DL and LH are within ten dollars of each other at $1338. They really act as an oligopoly to Europe from DTW. Options from Windsor are $1020 US.


Impressive. I've heard horror stories of customer service from RJ, but $500 is pretty much a steal.

flymco753 wrote:
Service at DTW is actually improving.

Obviously, AS is adding PDX, they broke yet another monopoly, that's 2 in 3 years, and next summer they'll peak at 3 daily flights, at this moment.

LH is bringing back the 744 next March, much earlier than before. AF is also starting 777 service, an increase in seats due to the increased demand in Paris travel from DTW. AM has been substituting the 738/73S a lot for the 73W, I expect the 738/S to become a daily visitor in peak season.

It's the time of the year where TATL adds generally get announced, I'm eager to hear if DTW will get a Euro LCC of some sort, and if I had to put my finger on a specific carrier that I think would work best for DTW is WOW.

AM is bringing MTY back in March, hopefully they put the codeshare on it this time as they didn't the last few times, I think the codeshare is the successor for that flight.

I know this is way far out but next July DL plans 757 service to SNA



1) I do hope the PDX flight sticks. I've had my fill of flying via MSP or SLC to get there by lunchtime, or have to arrive at 10pm. The red eye doesn't bother me too much, but a flight leaving DTW around the 8am bank would be perfect.

2) LH bringing the 744 is one of my highlights this summer.Perhaps it will be around for the auto show as well?

3) While I'd love to see the AF 789 (just one more seat in coach than the A343, can't be too hard to sell) I can live with the 777. I will say that I've seen lots of issues with delayed bags and CDG really needs to nip it in the bud. The running joke with one of my coworkers is that we need a roulette wheel in the break room to determine how many rush bags we receive from AF, and how many they did a half-assed job at rerouting.

4) I'm thinking we can see WOW someday, but anything that allows an easy connection to BEY will ensure a reasonable amount of seats being filled.

5) I'm very happy to see AM's MTY service coming back and I do agree that the codesharing was needed. Now bring on GDL!

6) My sister keeps waxing poetic about the SNA service as she often commutes there for work on a monthly basis and tries to avoid LAX even if her office is about 5 miles away from there. She just bought a roundtrip ticket two weeks after the inaugural for about $350 on the direct. No connections through MSP, SLC or heaven forbid, ATL (sometimes known as the cray-T-L by friends and coworkers).

7) I do think 321s will be more common over time. I'm surprised about it being mostly to the west coast as I was convinced the likes ot MCO, TPA, FLL, and RSW would be shoe-ins for the plane.

8) Not trying to single you out or anything. It was just a lot of things posted that I found newsworthy and wanted to consolidate it all into one post. :wave:
 
klm617
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:04 pm

DTWorld wrote:
Puissance wrote:
I have to give credit to RJ. My daughter just bought a ticket to Greece on them in March for $503. DL and LH are within ten dollars of each other at $1338. They really act as an oligopoly to Europe from DTW. Options from Windsor are $1020 US.


Impressive. I've heard horror stories of customer service from RJ, but $500 is pretty much a steal.

flymco753 wrote:
Service at DTW is actually improving.

Obviously, AS is adding PDX, they broke yet another monopoly, that's 2 in 3 years, and next summer they'll peak at 3 daily flights, at this moment.

LH is bringing back the 744 next March, much earlier than before. AF is also starting 777 service, an increase in seats due to the increased demand in Paris travel from DTW. AM has been substituting the 738/73S a lot for the 73W, I expect the 738/S to become a daily visitor in peak season.

It's the time of the year where TATL adds generally get announced, I'm eager to hear if DTW will get a Euro LCC of some sort, and if I had to put my finger on a specific carrier that I think would work best for DTW is WOW.

AM is bringing MTY back in March, hopefully they put the codeshare on it this time as they didn't the last few times, I think the codeshare is the successor for that flight.

I know this is way far out but next July DL plans 757 service to SNA



1) I do hope the PDX flight sticks. I've had my fill of flying via MSP or SLC to get there by lunchtime, or have to arrive at 10pm. The red eye doesn't bother me too much, but a flight leaving DTW around the 8am bank would be perfect.

2) LH bringing the 744 is one of my highlights this summer.Perhaps it will be around for the auto show as well?

3) While I'd love to see the AF 789 (just one more seat in coach than the A343, can't be too hard to sell) I can live with the 777. I will say that I've seen lots of issues with delayed bags and CDG really needs to nip it in the bud. The running joke with one of my coworkers is that we need a roulette wheel in the break room to determine how many rush bags we receive from AF, and how many they did a half-assed job at rerouting.

4) I'm thinking we can see WOW someday, but anything that allows an easy connection to BEY will ensure a reasonable amount of seats being filled.

5) I'm very happy to see AM's MTY service coming back and I do agree that the codesharing was needed. Now bring on GDL!

6) My sister keeps waxing poetic about the SNA service as she often commutes there for work on a monthly basis and tries to avoid LAX even if her office is about 5 miles away from there. She just bought a roundtrip ticket two weeks after the inaugural for about $350 on the direct. No connections through MSP, SLC or heaven forbid, ATL (sometimes known as the cray-T-L by friends and coworkers).

7) I do think 321s will be more common over time. I'm surprised about it being mostly to the west coast as I was convinced the likes ot MCO, TPA, FLL, and RSW would be shoe-ins for the plane.

8) Not trying to single you out or anything. It was just a lot of things posted that I found newsworthy and wanted to consolidate it all into one post. :wave:



Hell no to ATL you are absolutely correct that place is the hub from hell. Who wants to wade through thousands and thousands of people when you don't have to. I'd rather fly in an RJ for four hours than have to make a connection in Atlanta. As far as WOW Air as each year goes by the chances are less and less that Detroit will land any of these low cost European carriers as there is really no push by the WCAA to add international flights out of Detroit. The WCAA seems to walk ever so carefully because they don't want to offend Delta in any way even though Delta has almost zero growth planned for this market.
Last edited by klm617 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
DTWorld
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:34 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Such a real joke why is Delta so afraid of adding capacity in the Detroit market. Once again by reducing frequency they make Detroit a less attractive market to make connections as there will be fewer flight options.

This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...


I concur. I'm not trying to be that person, but the fact that he has gone in circles on the whole conspiracy of DL giving DTW the shaft is honestly one of the reasons why I don't post much. It honestly was getting old and rather fast. The ironic thing about it is that while he continues to talk about the ground staff for AF, KL, VS being better in DTW than DL, they actually are DL agents working those flights. Some of them I know personally!

alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Such a real joke why is Delta so afraid of adding capacity in the Detroit market. Once again by reducing frequency they make Detroit a less attractive market to make connections as there will be fewer flight options.

This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
If they are shifting so much Asian flying to ATL, why are the A350's based in DTW?


Because they want to reduce capacity at DTW by replacing the 744. Those seats are being shifted to ATL . It is by no coincidence that the flights that were a 744 ICN and PVG and are switching now to an A350 will both be liked to ATL now with nonstops. Why didn't KE add Detroit 3 X weekly to pick up that slack instead they are now sending those lost connections over ATL. I anwser to your question as to why the A350 will be based at Detroit simple answer they want international capacity to be further eroded at Detroit. To say the 744 was too big for it's Asia routes is simply not true because as you see they just shifted the capacity to another hub. What Mr. Bastian meant was the 744 was to large to link ATL to Asia as the volume indicated that the 744 was not to big it was just to big for ATL service. Had the route not warented a plane the size of the 744 out of Detroit that capacity would not have been made up with the new ATL flights. If Delta would have operated the 777 over ATL and the 744 over Detroit then yes you would have an over capacity situation so DTW to Asia had to be reduced to make ATL Asia viable.


At the risk of feeding the troll, please let me enlighten you on the economics of flying 744's to Asia. They are not good. At NW we realized that we had too many seats on a single flight to Asia because of the 744's capacity. The large number of seats caused us to sell discounted seats to fill the aircraft. At one time the 744 made sense, but as numerous posters have explained to you, the dynamics of USA-Asia flying has changed. Think about this- is UA trying to shaft ORD and SFO by parking their 744's and replacing them with 777's and future A350-10's? No- they are following the same strategy. Right sizing the aircraft to the new market dynamics.

In any event, NW's use of the 744 drove down it's Revenue Per Passenger Mile, also known as Yield. Why did yield decline? Why did NW receive less average revenue per mile that each passenger flew than it's competition?

Because we had too many seats to fill. (I know this- because I used to fill them) To fill those seats- we discounted them, offering many of them to consolidators (bucket shops) at deeply discounted prices. Those low yield passengers helped fill the plane, but flying a large plane full of low-yield passengers does not lead to long-term financial stability. Putting cheap butts in excess 744 seats drove down our yield. Higher Yield translates into higher Net Profit. Higher Net Profits translates in to lower borrowing costs, and more money to invest in aircraft and staff. In the end, airline profitability is all about passenger yield.

The A350 is the right sized aircraft for the market. The 744 is/was TOO LARGE. If it was the right size- I guarantee you that DL would have placed an order for 748i's and used them to replace 744's.

The carrier with the highest yield will generally be the most successful long-term. Many components go into why one carrier generates higher yield than another. ( i.e. Good customer service generates more high yield business traffic). But the fastest way to reduce yield, and decrease overall profitability is to fly too many seats in a particular market. And the the way to long-term profitability is via capacity discipline. DL usually refuses to chase low-yield traffic in ALL their markets, just not DTW. Instead they make use of the multiple sized AC in their fleet to right-size capacity. And note that they have cancelled Asia service from SFO and JFK too. They had lousy yields. Those assets were moved to where they can generate the highest yield (and net profits)- which then allows DL to make capital investments and raise salaries above post-bankruptcy levels.

So there is no high-yield "slack" in DTW for KE, DL, KL, or anyone else for that matter right now to pick up. There might be low-yield slack....but you cannot run an airline long-term of low yields. Each airline has a route planning department full of number cruncher's trying to maximize the return on capital. They have much more operating, passenger, and cost data that anyone on Airliners has. When they see an opportunity- they strike. And the people in Route Planning are reviewed by senior management on overall flight profitability. And they don't care if the flight leaves from DTW OR ATL.


I know I'm preaching to the choir about this, but I might as well say what I'm about to say.

Demand for a market isn't quite like matter. It can be created or destroyed. At the same time, it can be like matter in that it can be reallocated to make connections more streamlined. Not only is the A350 looking to optimize capacity, it's also looking to have it more spread out to make more sensible connections. Why fly ICN-DTW-ATL-JAX or ICN-DTW-JAX when one involves a double connection or a connection that simply involves sitting in DTW all day when you can fly ICN-ATL-JAX and have about a two hour connection. Missed the flight? No problem there are still plenty. Do that in DTW and you'd have to go via ATL anyways as the JAX flight is a bit awkwardly timed, especially for the ICN flight.

Yes it would be cool to see KE start up DTW once the joint venture is in full swing and I'd welcome them with open arms, but I don't see the loss of 70 or so seats being much of a justification for that happening overnight. By that logic, KLM would have been back a while ago by virtue of (almost) all the AMS flights being on 332s in the summer or better yet, AZ coming in January because FCO on DL metal is only seasonal.
 
kavok
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Has there been any discussion at DTW about constructing a consolidated rental car facility? Given that the weather is not always the greatest at DTW, having a giant ramp and consolidation of all the rental car agencies would seem to make sense. (And look a LOT better aesthetically too). Always surprised me that DTW didn't have a consolidated rental car ramp.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6506
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:53 pm

They recently did an internal study and have concluded not to pursue a consolidated rental car facility at this time. It had been outlined in older versions of the master plan, but its not currently in any short/medium term project. I would be interested in seeing the detailed analysis around why it does or doesn't make sense.

Basically, they've identified the area north of I-94 directly west of Middlebelt if they were to build a consolidated rental car facility. They would need to acquire the land first since its not currently part of the airport property and has no infrastructure in place. The site would have better access to/from I-94, but would increase the transit time to the terminals from what it is today.

The current site doesn't lend itself to a consolidated facility due to height restrictions due to the proximity of 3L/21R and the ability to built on-top of existing space while in-use.

With the lack of transit options and how prevalent rental car needs are it seems like something they should pursue however the logistics are challenging and expensive at best. It looks like there are projects out there to improve existing facilities but much of that burden falls on to the various vendor/agencies and their individual properties.

My only other thought would be if they ever needed to rebuild the "Big Blue Garage" which was built in the early 90s, they could build the "Mega Big-Blue" perhaps taller, widen, and expanded to the north, east and south with enough space to accommodate a consolidated rental car facility in addition to parking for the North terminal. Not sure if that would even be feasible with size and space requirements/constraints.
 
klm617
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:35 pm

DTWorld wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...


I concur. I'm not trying to be that person, but the fact that he has gone in circles on the whole conspiracy of DL giving DTW the shaft is honestly one of the reasons why I don't post much. It honestly was getting old and rather fast. The ironic thing about it is that while he continues to talk about the ground staff for AF, KL, VS being better in DTW than DL, they actually are DL agents working those flights. Some of them I know personally!

alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Because they want to reduce capacity at DTW by replacing the 744. Those seats are being shifted to ATL . It is by no coincidence that the flights that were a 744 ICN and PVG and are switching now to an A350 will both be liked to ATL now with nonstops. Why didn't KE add Detroit 3 X weekly to pick up that slack instead they are now sending those lost connections over ATL. I anwser to your question as to why the A350 will be based at Detroit simple answer they want international capacity to be further eroded at Detroit. To say the 744 was too big for it's Asia routes is simply not true because as you see they just shifted the capacity to another hub. What Mr. Bastian meant was the 744 was to large to link ATL to Asia as the volume indicated that the 744 was not to big it was just to big for ATL service. Had the route not warented a plane the size of the 744 out of Detroit that capacity would not have been made up with the new ATL flights. If Delta would have operated the 777 over ATL and the 744 over Detroit then yes you would have an over capacity situation so DTW to Asia had to be reduced to make ATL Asia viable.


At the risk of feeding the troll, please let me enlighten you on the economics of flying 744's to Asia. They are not good. At NW we realized that we had too many seats on a single flight to Asia because of the 744's capacity. The large number of seats caused us to sell discounted seats to fill the aircraft. At one time the 744 made sense, but as numerous posters have explained to you, the dynamics of USA-Asia flying has changed. Think about this- is UA trying to shaft ORD and SFO by parking their 744's and replacing them with 777's and future A350-10's? No- they are following the same strategy. Right sizing the aircraft to the new market dynamics.

In any event, NW's use of the 744 drove down it's Revenue Per Passenger Mile, also known as Yield. Why did yield decline? Why did NW receive less average revenue per mile that each passenger flew than it's competition?

Because we had too many seats to fill. (I know this- because I used to fill them) To fill those seats- we discounted them, offering many of them to consolidators (bucket shops) at deeply discounted prices. Those low yield passengers helped fill the plane, but flying a large plane full of low-yield passengers does not lead to long-term financial stability. Putting cheap butts in excess 744 seats drove down our yield. Higher Yield translates into higher Net Profit. Higher Net Profits translates in to lower borrowing costs, and more money to invest in aircraft and staff. In the end, airline profitability is all about passenger yield.

The A350 is the right sized aircraft for the market. The 744 is/was TOO LARGE. If it was the right size- I guarantee you that DL would have placed an order for 748i's and used them to replace 744's.

The carrier with the highest yield will generally be the most successful long-term. Many components go into why one carrier generates higher yield than another. ( i.e. Good customer service generates more high yield business traffic). But the fastest way to reduce yield, and decrease overall profitability is to fly too many seats in a particular market. And the the way to long-term profitability is via capacity discipline. DL usually refuses to chase low-yield traffic in ALL their markets, just not DTW. Instead they make use of the multiple sized AC in their fleet to right-size capacity. And note that they have cancelled Asia service from SFO and JFK too. They had lousy yields. Those assets were moved to where they can generate the highest yield (and net profits)- which then allows DL to make capital investments and raise salaries above post-bankruptcy levels.

So there is no high-yield "slack" in DTW for KE, DL, KL, or anyone else for that matter right now to pick up. There might be low-yield slack....but you cannot run an airline long-term of low yields. Each airline has a route planning department full of number cruncher's trying to maximize the return on capital. They have much more operating, passenger, and cost data that anyone on Airliners has. When they see an opportunity- they strike. And the people in Route Planning are reviewed by senior management on overall flight profitability. And they don't care if the flight leaves from DTW OR ATL.


I know I'm preaching to the choir about this, but I might as well say what I'm about to say.

Demand for a market isn't quite like matter. It can be created or destroyed. At the same time, it can be like matter in that it can be reallocated to make connections more streamlined. Not only is the A350 looking to optimize capacity, it's also looking to have it more spread out to make more sensible connections. Why fly ICN-DTW-ATL-JAX or ICN-DTW-JAX when one involves a double connection or a connection that simply involves sitting in DTW all day when you can fly ICN-ATL-JAX and have about a two hour connection. Missed the flight? No problem there are still plenty. Do that in DTW and you'd have to go via ATL anyways as the JAX flight is a bit awkwardly timed, especially for the ICN flight.

Yes it would be cool to see KE start up DTW once the joint venture is in full swing and I'd welcome them with open arms, but I don't see the loss of 70 or so seats being much of a justification for that happening overnight. By that logic, KLM would have been back a while ago by virtue of (almost) all the AMS flights being on 332s in the summer or better yet, AZ coming in January because FCO on DL metal is only seasonal.


So than why not add a JAX Detroit flight ATL already had a flight to ICN on KE and being DTW is the Asian gateway for Delta everything east of the Mississippi why not make connections there more convenient to their Asia operation does JAX-ATL really need 12 daily nonstops. When you think of Asian travel on Delta your first thought should be Detroit but I don't think that is even the case any more. But you see justification to almost double the capacity in the ATL-ICN market sorry I don't see that as anything other than reducing the Asian connections out of Detroit in favor of boosting the number of passengers it connects through Atlanta. To you very first comment you are correct Delta is destroying a lot of connections in this market by repeatedly reducing options. Next summer it's going to be reducing frequency because because there is suppose to be a lot of up gauging in Detroit. So first they reduce capacity to make it less likely that you will transfer in Detroit and then we are going to take a second hit because of frequency reduction due to up-gauging. Delta has just about single handedly destroyed the Detroit London market. Most years it was 2 daily year round and in the summer 3 daily in some cases now it isn't even twice daily in the summer.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:53 pm

DTWorld wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...


I concur. I'm not trying to be that person, but the fact that he has gone in circles on the whole conspiracy of DL giving DTW the shaft is honestly one of the reasons why I don't post much. It honestly was getting old and rather fast. The ironic thing about it is that while he continues to talk about the ground staff for AF, KL, VS being better in DTW than DL, they actually are DL agents working those flights. Some of them I know personally!

alfa164 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
This DL hates DTW talk is delusional, Detroit is Delta's second-largest hub by daily flights and third largest by seats available, and is Delta's Asian gateway for the majority of the eastern US. Be grateful that DL isn't cutting capacity like it did at CVG.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: There should be some way to flag "delusional" posters on A.net... and, after 10 or 12 such flags, ban them for a while...

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Because they want to reduce capacity at DTW by replacing the 744. Those seats are being shifted to ATL . It is by no coincidence that the flights that were a 744 ICN and PVG and are switching now to an A350 will both be liked to ATL now with nonstops. Why didn't KE add Detroit 3 X weekly to pick up that slack instead they are now sending those lost connections over ATL. I anwser to your question as to why the A350 will be based at Detroit simple answer they want international capacity to be further eroded at Detroit. To say the 744 was too big for it's Asia routes is simply not true because as you see they just shifted the capacity to another hub. What Mr. Bastian meant was the 744 was to large to link ATL to Asia as the volume indicated that the 744 was not to big it was just to big for ATL service. Had the route not warented a plane the size of the 744 out of Detroit that capacity would not have been made up with the new ATL flights. If Delta would have operated the 777 over ATL and the 744 over Detroit then yes you would have an over capacity situation so DTW to Asia had to be reduced to make ATL Asia viable.


At the risk of feeding the troll, please let me enlighten you on the economics of flying 744's to Asia. They are not good. At NW we realized that we had too many seats on a single flight to Asia because of the 744's capacity. The large number of seats caused us to sell discounted seats to fill the aircraft. At one time the 744 made sense, but as numerous posters have explained to you, the dynamics of USA-Asia flying has changed. Think about this- is UA trying to shaft ORD and SFO by parking their 744's and replacing them with 777's and future A350-10's? No- they are following the same strategy. Right sizing the aircraft to the new market dynamics.

In any event, NW's use of the 744 drove down it's Revenue Per Passenger Mile, also known as Yield. Why did yield decline? Why did NW receive less average revenue per mile that each passenger flew than it's competition?

Because we had too many seats to fill. (I know this- because I used to fill them) To fill those seats- we discounted them, offering many of them to consolidators (bucket shops) at deeply discounted prices. Those low yield passengers helped fill the plane, but flying a large plane full of low-yield passengers does not lead to long-term financial stability. Putting cheap butts in excess 744 seats drove down our yield. Higher Yield translates into higher Net Profit. Higher Net Profits translates in to lower borrowing costs, and more money to invest in aircraft and staff. In the end, airline profitability is all about passenger yield.

The A350 is the right sized aircraft for the market. The 744 is/was TOO LARGE. If it was the right size- I guarantee you that DL would have placed an order for 748i's and used them to replace 744's.

The carrier with the highest yield will generally be the most successful long-term. Many components go into why one carrier generates higher yield than another. ( i.e. Good customer service generates more high yield business traffic). But the fastest way to reduce yield, and decrease overall profitability is to fly too many seats in a particular market. And the the way to long-term profitability is via capacity discipline. DL usually refuses to chase low-yield traffic in ALL their markets, just not DTW. Instead they make use of the multiple sized AC in their fleet to right-size capacity. And note that they have cancelled Asia service from SFO and JFK too. They had lousy yields. Those assets were moved to where they can generate the highest yield (and net profits)- which then allows DL to make capital investments and raise salaries above post-bankruptcy levels.

So there is no high-yield "slack" in DTW for KE, DL, KL, or anyone else for that matter right now to pick up. There might be low-yield slack....but you cannot run an airline long-term of low yields. Each airline has a route planning department full of number cruncher's trying to maximize the return on capital. They have much more operating, passenger, and cost data that anyone on Airliners has. When they see an opportunity- they strike. And the people in Route Planning are reviewed by senior management on overall flight profitability. And they don't care if the flight leaves from DTW OR ATL.


I know I'm preaching to the choir about this, but I might as well say what I'm about to say.

Demand for a market isn't quite like matter. It can be created or destroyed. At the same time, it can be like matter in that it can be reallocated to make connections more streamlined. Not only is the A350 looking to optimize capacity, it's also looking to have it more spread out to make more sensible connections. Why fly ICN-DTW-ATL-JAX or ICN-DTW-JAX when one involves a double connection or a connection that simply involves sitting in DTW all day when you can fly ICN-ATL-JAX and have about a two hour connection. Missed the flight? No problem there are still plenty. Do that in DTW and you'd have to go via ATL anyways as the JAX flight is a bit awkwardly timed, especially for the ICN flight.

Yes it would be cool to see KE start up DTW once the joint venture is in full swing and I'd welcome them with open arms, but I don't see the loss of 70 or so seats being much of a justification for that happening overnight. By that logic, KLM would have been back a while ago by virtue of (almost) all the AMS flights being on 332s in the summer or better yet, AZ coming in January because FCO on DL metal is only seasonal.


More over to you comment why should travelers from most upper Midwest markets have to double connect when traveling to DUB and MAN if your theory is correct Delta should be adding some European markets out of Detroit to avoid the double connect that you talk about like JAX as justification for all the extra ATL-ICN capacity. I was not talking about ground staff I am talking about the over all on board product.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:41 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
With the lack of transit options and how prevalent rental car needs are it seems like something they should pursue however the logistics are challenging and expensive at best. It looks like there are projects out there to improve existing facilities but much of that burden falls on to the various vendor/agencies and their individual properties.


I'm heavily opposed to consolidated rental facilities from a cost standpoint -- on recent visits to MSY, SAN and ORD, I was taxed nearly $40 for use of the facility (and heck, ORD's isn't even open yet). I paid more in tax & fees at MSY & ORD than I did in rental charges - ridiculous! Additionally, amenities many rental companies offer typically don't make it into consolidated facilities. That bottle of water & piece of fruit might not be much, but it's often a huge time saver, or saves me from doing stupid like rushing to McD's.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:31 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They recently did an internal study and have concluded not to pursue a consolidated rental car facility at this time. It had been outlined in older versions of the master plan, but its not currently in any short/medium term project. I would be interested in seeing the detailed analysis around why it does or doesn't make sense.

Basically, they've identified the area north of I-94 directly west of Middlebelt if they were to build a consolidated rental car facility. They would need to acquire the land first since its not currently part of the airport property and has no infrastructure in place. The site would have better access to/from I-94, but would increase the transit time to the terminals from what it is today.

The current site doesn't lend itself to a consolidated facility due to height restrictions due to the proximity of 3L/21R and the ability to built on-top of existing space while in-use.

With the lack of transit options and how prevalent rental car needs are it seems like something they should pursue however the logistics are challenging and expensive at best. It looks like there are projects out there to improve existing facilities but much of that burden falls on to the various vendor/agencies and their individual properties.

My only other thought would be if they ever needed to rebuild the "Big Blue Garage" which was built in the early 90s, they could build the "Mega Big-Blue" perhaps taller, widen, and expanded to the north, east and south with enough space to accommodate a consolidated rental car facility in addition to parking for the North terminal. Not sure if that would even be feasible with size and space requirements/constraints.


Thanks for the info! And I get the cost argument against it, but it seems DTW is so far behind most other major airports in terms of ground transportation facilities and options. I am not disagreeing with any of the facts you posted, but I find it real hard to believe they couldn't squeeze a garage in south of the Big Blue deck and just north of the old terminals. Maybe there is an obvious reason, or maybe it is just cost.

I know there are some on here who advocate WCAA spending money to subsidize new routes/airlines, but I would much rather see any dollars spent on improving ground transportation facilities and options, and a consolidated entail car facility would be a good start. Just my two cents.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:56 am

I'm not fond of most of the consolidated rental car facilities (CRCF) out there either:

BWI & PHX are have poor locations, somewhat confusing to find and poor adjacent services/gas stations
SEA is reasonably close and frequent shuttles, seemed ok to me
SFO I honestly can't remember but I think it worked out pretty decent taking the train from the terminal (only rented a car there once and it was 5 years ago on my honeymoon)

Like said, when airports build CRCFs the cost is basically passed-through to the consumers via surcharges on the daily rental fee.

I haven't rented a car at DTW in a few years, but I don't remember it being particularly good or bad, pretty average as far as off-site locations go. That said, I've talked to out of town travelers coming into town for business and they say Monday mornings are a madhouse in terms of getting rental car shuttles and at the various facilities. One of the unique aspects in DTW is that many travelers, if they are traveling on business for or with one of the domestic OEMs will tend to request a vehicle from the respect OEM they represent and/or are doing business with on their visit. Supplier representatives coming in to do business or meet with Ford will request to rent a Ford product if available.

CRCFs and fees are one thing if your employer is paying and you are using OPM. Its another matter if its out of your own pocket.

That said, I used to not like DEN's rental car set-up, but in recent years it works really well with each company's shuttles running frequently and often to remote sites that are a bit removed from the airport terminal. DTW I think is actually closer than most of the rental car facilities at DEN.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:44 am

Delta to charge a surcharge on Delta One business class seats on upcoming A359 flights to ICN, an increase of around 13%

Delta One passengers booked under discounted I-class and Z-class fares will be charged US$500 "per direction", with a US$250 tariff on C, D and J ticket codes.
Based on current average Delta One fares of US$7,600 for a round-trip between Detroit and Seoul, the surcharge could see fares rocket as high as $8,600 – a jump of some 13%.


https://www.ausbt.com.au/delta-s-us-1-0 ... ness-class
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thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:17 pm

Why are there so many flights between Detroit and Orlando?

As I am still fairly new to the Detroit area, I would like for us to come together and explain why there are so many flights between Detroit, Michigan and Orlando, Florida? I have came prepared with sources and information we can benefit from.

Quarter 1 2016; 2520 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 6x 7573), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 2x A320), (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 2 2016; 2240 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 7x 7573), (F9 1X A321, 1x A320), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320) (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 3 2016; 1719 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 5x 7379, 1x MD80), (F9 0.4x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Quarter 4 2016; 2021 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 4x 7573, 2x 7572), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Source: https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report

Is there enough room for JetBlue to fit in an additional Airbus in this market?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:37 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
Why are there so many flights between Detroit and Orlando?

As I am still fairly new to the Detroit area, I would like for us to come together and explain why there are so many flights between Detroit, Michigan and Orlando, Florida? I have came prepared with sources and information we can benefit from.

Quarter 1 2016; 2520 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 6x 7573), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 2x A320), (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 2 2016; 2240 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 7x 7573), (F9 1X A321, 1x A320), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320) (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 3 2016; 1719 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 5x 7379, 1x MD80), (F9 0.4x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Quarter 4 2016; 2021 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 4x 7573, 2x 7572), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Source: https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report

Is there enough room for JetBlue to fit in an additional Airbus in this market?


There sure is without a doubt.; I also think there is room for a FNT-MCO flight with an early morning departure and late afternoon return.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:55 pm

Looked at Delta's schedule for DTW-GSP in Jan and saw they had it scheduled as all CR7s, which is an improvement. I'm thinking it's to stay competitive with AA/UA's increasing use of 2 class RJs to ORD. At this rate, maybe the first departure/last return of the day goes 717 next year.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:03 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Looked at Delta's schedule for DTW-GSP in Jan and saw they had it scheduled as all CR7s, which is an improvement. I'm thinking it's to stay competitive with AA/UA's increasing use of 2 class RJs to ORD. At this rate, maybe the first departure/last return of the day goes 717 next year.
Or an A319, I could see either or. I was looking at the PDEW between DTW and GSP, the market seems to be growing.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:
Why are there so many flights between Detroit and Orlando?

As I am still fairly new to the Detroit area, I would like for us to come together and explain why there are so many flights between Detroit, Michigan and Orlando, Florida? I have came prepared with sources and information we can benefit from.

Quarter 1 2016; 2520 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 6x 7573), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 2x A320), (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 2 2016; 2240 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 7x 7573), (F9 1X A321, 1x A320), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320) (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 3 2016; 1719 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 5x 7379, 1x MD80), (F9 0.4x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Quarter 4 2016; 2021 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 4x 7573, 2x 7572), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Source: https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report

Is there enough room for JetBlue to fit in an additional Airbus in this market?


There sure is without a doubt.; I also think there is room for a FNT-MCO flight with an early morning departure and late afternoon return.
There's only 1 way B6 would do it and that's to be a more known carrier and to compete with WN in the winter. DL never runs RT's below $200, if so that's rare, and ULCC travel is being duked out by F9 and NK, so B6 would essentially be that middle carrier for people that don't like the NK/F9 model or that don't want to pay as much to fly Delta when you get essentially the same level of service and could pay roughly $180 RT on B6. B6 could downgauge from an A320 to an E190 in Q3, but my forecast has Q3 going above 2000 daily this year so it could be possible for it to stay an A320.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:09 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:
Why are there so many flights between Detroit and Orlando?

As I am still fairly new to the Detroit area, I would like for us to come together and explain why there are so many flights between Detroit, Michigan and Orlando, Florida? I have came prepared with sources and information we can benefit from.

Quarter 1 2016; 2520 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 6x 7573), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 2x A320), (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 2 2016; 2240 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 7x 7573), (F9 1X A321, 1x A320), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320) (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 3 2016; 1719 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 5x 7379, 1x MD80), (F9 0.4x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Quarter 4 2016; 2021 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 4x 7573, 2x 7572), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Source: https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report

Is there enough room for JetBlue to fit in an additional Airbus in this market?


There sure is without a doubt.; I also think there is room for a FNT-MCO flight with an early morning departure and late afternoon return.
There's only 1 way B6 would do it and that's to be a more known carrier and to compete with WN in the winter. DL never runs RT's below $200, if so that's rare, and ULCC travel is being duked out by F9 and NK, so B6 would essentially be that middle carrier for people that don't like the NK/F9 model or that don't want to pay as much to fly Delta when you get essentially the same level of service and could pay roughly $180 RT on B6. B6 could downgauge from an A320 to an E190 in Q3, but my forecast has Q3 going above 2000 daily this year so it could be possible for it to stay an A320.
Anyhow, the whole B6 thing to MCO has already been discussed in previous DTW threads and the verdict is, it'll NEVER happen.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:43 pm

flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
Looked at Delta's schedule for DTW-GSP in Jan and saw they had it scheduled as all CR7s, which is an improvement. I'm thinking it's to stay competitive with AA/UA's increasing use of 2 class RJs to ORD. At this rate, maybe the first departure/last return of the day goes 717 next year.
Or an A319, I could see either or. I was looking at the PDEW between DTW and GSP, the market seems to be growing.


There are a lot of local ties due to the automotive industry (BMW, Clemson's iCar, etc); used to be 4x D9S in the day, fell to like 3-4x CR2 in the very late NW/early DL days.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:13 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
Looked at Delta's schedule for DTW-GSP in Jan and saw they had it scheduled as all CR7s, which is an improvement. I'm thinking it's to stay competitive with AA/UA's increasing use of 2 class RJs to ORD. At this rate, maybe the first departure/last return of the day goes 717 next year.
Or an A319, I could see either or. I was looking at the PDEW between DTW and GSP, the market seems to be growing.


There are a lot of local ties due to the automotive industry (BMW, Clemson's iCar, etc); used to be 4x D9S in the day, fell to like 3-4x CR2 in the very late NW/early DL days.



Delta thinks all GSP passengers should be forced to connect through Atlanta customer convenience doesn't matter to them.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:18 pm

As most other airports the size of DTW are now announcing new flights for Summer 2018 waiting patiently for Detroit's new international flight to be announced. Let's see what the WCAA is going to land or will it be another lame duck session as far as 2018 goes. As American has announced PHL to PRG and BUD and please don't tell me those flights were added because the is a big demand between PHL and Hungry or the Czech republic that being said I would expect DUB, KEF or MAN to be landed by the WCAA for summer 2018
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:42 pm

Saturday is National Aviation Day at the Henry Ford Museum Delta is covering the cost of admission

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-ev ... ation-day/
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:02 am

GSP psgr wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
Looked at Delta's schedule for DTW-GSP in Jan and saw they had it scheduled as all CR7s, which is an improvement. I'm thinking it's to stay competitive with AA/UA's increasing use of 2 class RJs to ORD. At this rate, maybe the first departure/last return of the day goes 717 next year.
Or an A319, I could see either or. I was looking at the PDEW between DTW and GSP, the market seems to be growing.


There are a lot of local ties due to the automotive industry (BMW, Clemson's iCar, etc); used to be 4x D9S in the day, fell to like 3-4x CR2 in the very late NW/early DL days.
Q3 PDEW is around 151 so I see no reason why an A319 or 717 won't be added.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:03 am

klm617 wrote:
As most other airports the size of DTW are now announcing new flights for Summer 2018 waiting patiently for Detroit's new international flight to be announced. Let's see what the WCAA is going to land or will it be another lame duck session as far as 2018 goes. As American has announced PHL to PRG and BUD and please don't tell me those flights were added because the is a big demand between PHL and Hungry or the Czech republic that being said I would expect DUB, KEF or MAN to be landed by the WCAA for summer 2018
Summer adds through next year go until mid-December.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:23 am

thedetroitpole wrote:
Why are there so many flights between Detroit and Orlando?

As I am still fairly new to the Detroit area, I would like for us to come together and explain why there are so many flights between Detroit, Michigan and Orlando, Florida? I have came prepared with sources and information we can benefit from.

Quarter 1 2016; 2520 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 6x 7573), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 2x A320), (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 2 2016; 2240 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit, and Southwest) (DL 7x 7573), (F9 1X A321, 1x A320), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320) (WN 0.1x 737)
Quarter 3 2016; 1719 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 5x 7379, 1x MD80), (F9 0.4x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Quarter 4 2016; 2021 PDEW (Delta, Frontier, Spirit) (DL 4x 7573, 2x 7572), (F9 1x A321), (NK 1x A321, 1x A320)
Source: https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report

Is there enough room for JetBlue to fit in an additional Airbus in this market?


The PDEW numbers you put need to be divided by 2.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:27 am

klm617 wrote:
Saturday is National Aviation Day at the Henry Ford Museum Delta is covering the cost of admission

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-ev ... ation-day/


Great museum, btw, had some time to kill on Thursday while I was in DTW and decided to check it out and I had a blast, definitely will be coming back soon.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:46 am

Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Saturday is National Aviation Day at the Henry Ford Museum Delta is covering the cost of admission

https://www.thehenryford.org/current-ev ... ation-day/


Great museum, btw, had some time to kill on Thursday while I was in DTW and decided to check it out and I had a blast, definitely will be coming back soon.
Not really aviation related but I love the Greenfield Village too on top of the Museum, I normally go to Greenfield Village once every few years while dressed in clothing of the times, suspenders included.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:55 am

I'm surprised that none of the car rental or park-and-fly companies have relocated to the south entrance on Eureka Rd. There's plenty of vacant land and it's closer to the Delta terminal, which is much busier than the North Terminal.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:46 pm

Now that B6 has added ATL-MCO, there's most definitely a chance they'll add DTW-MCO because of you look at the PDEW from the source above, DTW has more pax daily between MCO than ATL, on top of that ATL will have nearly 30 daily flights on 5 different airlines, DTW can last with peak travel at 14 flights on 5 airlines, while in the summer reducing to 10 on 4 airlines.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
fsafsx
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Now that B6 has added ATL-MCO, there's most definitely a chance they'll add DTW-MCO because of you look at the PDEW from the source above, DTW has more pax daily between MCO than ATL, on top of that ATL will have nearly 30 daily flights on 5 different airlines, DTW can last with peak travel at 14 flights on 5 airlines, while in the summer reducing to 10 on 4 airlines.
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
 
compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
I'm surprised that none of the car rental or park-and-fly companies have relocated to the south entrance on Eureka Rd. There's plenty of vacant land and it's closer to the Delta terminal, which is much busier than the North Terminal.


The current rental car facilities and offsite parking lots are located near 94; given that the lion's share of traffic to/from DTW utilizes 94, it doesn't make any sense to relocate. It wouldn't yield any savings for car rental companies (they still have to serve North) and they'd have to invest in new facilities.

And although there's five park-and-fly lots, the largest three (Qwik Park, US Park & Airlines Parking) -- which are massive in size - perhaps the largest in the country -- are owned by the same famly, which also owns the majority of DTW-area hotels, essentially giving them a de facto monopoly. Park-and-Go is a small, niche lot whereas Valet Connections' business model is built on using Taylor so it can avoid the ridiculous 27% tax.

Not to mention it's only a short drive to Midfield, anyway :).
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:40 pm

fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
Do you mean the airport or the metro area. If you are talking about the airport, you are correct. If you're talking about the metro area, not even close. ATL- 5.2M DTW- 4.2M. For the city itself, Detroit has Atlanta killed--672,000 vs 472,000.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
Do you mean the airport or the metro area. If you are talking about the airport, you are correct. If you're talking about the metro area, not even close. ATL- 5.2M DTW- 4.2M. For the city itself, Detroit has Atlanta killed--672,000 vs 472,000.



What is the largest commercial airport in the nearby Ann Arbor MSA? Are there any employment centers or significant enough populations with wealth in the Ann Arbor MSA to justify commercial air service?
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:21 pm

DTW is only 20 miles from Ann Arbor.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
Do you mean the airport or the metro area. If you are talking about the airport, you are correct. If you're talking about the metro area, not even close. ATL- 5.2M DTW- 4.2M. For the city itself, Detroit has Atlanta killed--672,000 vs 472,000.


Sorry, but population is only one component of demand. ATL trumps DTW in O&D, approximately 2:1 ratio. DTW just doesn't generate the O&D that ATL does, outside of key markets to Japan and other auto industry ties. There's not a vendetta against DTW, ATL is just far and away the larger market.

Jeremy
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:30 pm

johns624 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
Do you mean the airport or the metro area. If you are talking about the airport, you are correct. If you're talking about the metro area, not even close. ATL- 5.2M DTW- 4.2M. For the city itself, Detroit has Atlanta killed--672,000 vs 472,000.

I would use different words, and avoid saying Detroit has someone "killed" .. it already has that reputation...
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:39 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I would use different words, and avoid saying Detroit has someone "killed" .. it already has that reputation...
Unlike Chicago, which is such a crime-free city...except for the South Side and the West Side and the... :)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:51 pm

A significant portion of the land on the south side of the airport between Eureka and Pennsylvania is owned by the airport, but there are pockets of other land-owners in this area.
As compensateme said, based on traffic studies, only 26% of airport traffic enters via the south entrance off I-275 and Eureka, the other 74% uses the north entrance from I-94. Based on that there isn't the justification to put rental car and offsite parking in this area and that all of the infrastructure is already in place on the north side of the airport where the majority of the traffic already goes. Based on O&D, its nearly a 50/50 split between the North Terminal and McNamara Terminal so its current location is still more convenient for the majority of people arriving/departing from DTW.

Long-term, WCAA has allocated land for a potential CRCF on the north side of I-94 west of Middlebelt. The alternate area evaluated was off the south side of Eureka, but based on the data above, the preference is on the north side of the airport. Based on preference from the surrounding community, the long term land use plan is to focus commerical business on the north side of the field where it is today and allocate the land on the south side of the field for industrial usage. That said, there is a lot of wetlands south of Eureka so a lot of that land may not even be suitable to built.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:34 pm

fsafsx wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Now that B6 has added ATL-MCO, there's most definitely a chance they'll add DTW-MCO because of you look at the PDEW from the source above, DTW has more pax daily between MCO than ATL, on top of that ATL will have nearly 30 daily flights on 5 different airlines, DTW can last with peak travel at 14 flights on 5 airlines, while in the summer reducing to 10 on 4 airlines.
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.



Yes but the seats in each market don't match the population while the O/D may be more from ATL-MCO it doesn't justify the amount of capacity compared to Detroit you can put this on the shoulders of the lame airport committee who really doesn't do that much when it comes to attracting new service options at the airport. Just waiting to see the surprises that are in store for summer 2018 the answer more of the same nothing because the airport refuses to be committed to bringing new service into this market. I can just say not one single dedicated cargo carrier in one of the biggest manufacturing regions of the United States not only that but cargo operations at YIP are a shell of what they used to be another asset that the WCAA refuses to take full advantage of. There is more Michigan cargo shipped out of ORD than there is out of the Detroit airports of DTW and YIP.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:44 pm

johns624 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I would use different words, and avoid saying Detroit has someone "killed" .. it already has that reputation...
Unlike Chicago, which is such a crime-free city...except for the South Side and the West Side and the... :)



But you have to include the south side you can't say the Chicago area is crime free because if you said that then you could say the Detroit region is also crime free because in reality it is when you discount the city of like you are with the south side of Chicago..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Now that B6 has added ATL-MCO, there's most definitely a chance they'll add DTW-MCO because of you look at the PDEW from the source above, DTW has more pax daily between MCO than ATL, on top of that ATL will have nearly 30 daily flights on 5 different airlines, DTW can last with peak travel at 14 flights on 5 airlines, while in the summer reducing to 10 on 4 airlines.
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.



Yes but the seats in each market don't match the population while the O/D may be more from ATL-MCO it doesn't justify the amount of capacity compared to Detroit you can put this on the shoulders of the lame airport committee who really doesn't do that much when it comes to attracting new service options at the airport. Just waiting to see the surprises that are in store for summer 2018 the answer more of the same nothing because the airport refuses to be committed to bringing new service into this market. I can just say not one single dedicated cargo carrier in one of the biggest manufacturing regions of the United States not only that but cargo operations at YIP are a shell of what they used to be another asset that the WCAA refuses to take full advantage of. There is more Michigan cargo shipped out of ORD than there is out of the Detroit airports of DTW and YIP.
DTW has more O&D to MCO than ATL, which is why I'm confused as to why the argument for B6 beginning DTW-MCO is completely invalid.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I would use different words, and avoid saying Detroit has someone "killed" .. it already has that reputation...
Unlike Chicago, which is such a crime-free city...except for the South Side and the West Side and the... :)

What is your point? Nobody posted that Chicago had killed anything. It was just a poor choice of words.

Deflection, maybe?
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1528
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:27 pm

kavok wrote:
johns624 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.
Do you mean the airport or the metro area. If you are talking about the airport, you are correct. If you're talking about the metro area, not even close. ATL- 5.2M DTW- 4.2M. For the city itself, Detroit has Atlanta killed--672,000 vs 472,000.



What is the largest commercial airport in the nearby Ann Arbor MSA? Are there any employment centers or significant enough populations with wealth in the Ann Arbor MSA to justify commercial air service?


I travel to Ann Arbor pretty often, and DTW is closer than one might think to Ann Arbor. Whether it has the wealth or not, there is really no need for commercial air service.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
tphuang
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:08 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.



Yes but the seats in each market don't match the population while the O/D may be more from ATL-MCO it doesn't justify the amount of capacity compared to Detroit you can put this on the shoulders of the lame airport committee who really doesn't do that much when it comes to attracting new service options at the airport. Just waiting to see the surprises that are in store for summer 2018 the answer more of the same nothing because the airport refuses to be committed to bringing new service into this market. I can just say not one single dedicated cargo carrier in one of the biggest manufacturing regions of the United States not only that but cargo operations at YIP are a shell of what they used to be another asset that the WCAA refuses to take full advantage of. There is more Michigan cargo shipped out of ORD than there is out of the Detroit airports of DTW and YIP.
DTW has more O&D to MCO than ATL, which is why I'm confused as to why the argument for B6 beginning DTW-MCO is completely invalid.

For what it's worth, I don't see why b6 won't enter dtw mco sometimes down the road once they get the new terminal going. Until then, it's focused on Boston and fll
 
alfa164
Posts: 1952
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 pm

johns624 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Unlike Chicago, which is such a crime-free city...except for the South Side and the West Side and the... :)

What is your point? Nobody posted that Chicago had killed anything. It was just a poor choice of words.
Deflection, maybe?
No, it wasn't a poor choice of words. Just because you only know one definition of a word, doesn't mean that more educated people don't.

The things you don't understand would make a great book... :roll:
 
SpartanFlyZone
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:54 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
A significant portion of the land on the south side of the airport between Eureka and Pennsylvania is owned by the airport, but there are pockets of other land-owners in this area.
As compensateme said, based on traffic studies, only 26% of airport traffic enters via the south entrance off I-275 and Eureka, the other 74% uses the north entrance from I-94. Based on that there isn't the justification to put rental car and offsite parking in this area and that all of the infrastructure is already in place on the north side of the airport where the majority of the traffic already goes. Based on O&D, its nearly a 50/50 split between the North Terminal and McNamara Terminal so its current location is still more convenient for the majority of people arriving/departing from DTW.

Long-term, WCAA has allocated land for a potential CRCF on the north side of I-94 west of Middlebelt. The alternate area evaluated was off the south side of Eureka, but based on the data above, the preference is on the north side of the airport. Based on preference from the surrounding community, the long term land use plan is to focus commerical business on the north side of the field where it is today and allocate the land on the south side of the field for industrial usage. That said, there is a lot of wetlands south of Eureka so a lot of that land may not even be suitable to built.



It would seem that the south side of the big blue ramp and the adjacent surface lot/access area would be enough land to construct a ramp to house a CRCF. Personally, I am not a fan of the offsite CRCFs, such as in Phoenix. At the end of the day, it likely will not make a difference to me as I always drive myself to DTW. I do prefer the Eureka entrance/exit, but I most often travel from the west side of the metro area. Middlebelt is obviously the choice when I am driving in from my downtown office.

Interesting discussion and enjoy your analysis and expertise.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:19 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
Atlanta is twice the size of detroit and more people fly from atlanta to mco Jetblue isnt dumb they know what their doing and that doesnt include flying Dtw-mco get over it.



Yes but the seats in each market don't match the population while the O/D may be more from ATL-MCO it doesn't justify the amount of capacity compared to Detroit you can put this on the shoulders of the lame airport committee who really doesn't do that much when it comes to attracting new service options at the airport. Just waiting to see the surprises that are in store for summer 2018 the answer more of the same nothing because the airport refuses to be committed to bringing new service into this market. I can just say not one single dedicated cargo carrier in one of the biggest manufacturing regions of the United States not only that but cargo operations at YIP are a shell of what they used to be another asset that the WCAA refuses to take full advantage of. There is more Michigan cargo shipped out of ORD than there is out of the Detroit airports of DTW and YIP.
DTW has more O&D to MCO than ATL, which is why I'm confused as to why the argument for B6 beginning DTW-MCO is completely invalid.



Keep this in mind while F9 and NK operate DTW-MCO they are really not in direct completion with Delta. Delta offers a more full service product while NK and F9 offer a bare bone type of service. Right now the is a Saturday only Southwest flight that competes directly with Delta's product and then you have your answer all direct competition with Delta's service in Detroit are not encouraged so hence you have your answer why B6 does not serve the Detroit Orlando market to keep Delta in the drivers seat in each and every market they serve out of Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6506
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:11 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Yes but the seats in each market don't match the population while the O/D may be more from ATL-MCO it doesn't justify the amount of capacity compared to Detroit you can put this on the shoulders of the lame airport committee who really doesn't do that much when it comes to attracting new service options at the airport. Just waiting to see the surprises that are in store for summer 2018 the answer more of the same nothing because the airport refuses to be committed to bringing new service into this market. I can just say not one single dedicated cargo carrier in one of the biggest manufacturing regions of the United States not only that but cargo operations at YIP are a shell of what they used to be another asset that the WCAA refuses to take full advantage of. There is more Michigan cargo shipped out of ORD than there is out of the Detroit airports of DTW and YIP.
DTW has more O&D to MCO than ATL, which is why I'm confused as to why the argument for B6 beginning DTW-MCO is completely invalid.



Keep this in mind while F9 and NK operate DTW-MCO they are really not in direct completion with Delta. Delta offers a more full service product while NK and F9 offer a bare bone type of service. Right now the is a Saturday only Southwest flight that competes directly with Delta's product and then you have your answer all direct competition with Delta's service in Detroit are not encouraged so hence you have your answer why B6 does not serve the Detroit Orlando market to keep Delta in the drivers seat in each and every market they serve out of Detroit.

Not encouraged??? By who? That comment makes zero sense. No entity has neither encouraged or discouraged B6 from my operating DTW-MCO other than based on their own network plans and whatever the market data suggests.

I am not sure why their is such infatuation over B6 on a route like DTW-MCO that already is one of the biggest competitive markets out of DTW. First look at B6 strategy, they have primarily been building up flights out of their core markets like BOS, JFK, FLL. Hence, DTW was added as a spoke for BOS and now later FLL. Now we are seeing B6 add flights from other core markets like MCO to key outstations where they feel there is an opportunity. Yes, DTW has ever so-slightly more O&D than ATL but its really pretty darn close and I'd venture to guess the ATL-MCO overall O&D market is actually much larger but a healthy portion of the market drives instead of flies. ATL-MCO actually is a better add for B6 at the moment because the actual air fares are similar but the flight is half the distance and takes half of the amount of aircraft time so overall segment costs are lower with similar segment revenue and get more segments out of the aircraft.

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