david b.
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Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:36 am

Why was a korean 747 shot down over siberia a few decades ago? Did the russians see a commercial airliner with pax as a threat or was it because they just didn't like them?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
BH346
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:44 am

The Korean Air flight wasn't supposed to go over Sibera, but did to save time. There were two Soviet fighters that questioned the plane if it was a friend or foe. The 747 did not answer and it was shot down. The plane was unknown to the fighters and they wasn't sure what it was.
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david b.
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:50 am

Where was that flight going? Comming to the US? Don't most aircraft fly over russia on their way to asia?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
747buff
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:56 am

This happened at the height of the Cold War in the early 80s. Korean #007 had taken off from New York JFK, headed for Seoul, on August 31, 1983. On board were 269 people, including a U.S. Congressman from Georgia. The flight stopped to refuel at Anchorage shortly before dawn on September 1. 10 minutes after leaving ANC, the aircraft began a course that would take it over forbidden airspace of Siberia. Korean Air's flights out of ANC often did this to reduce flight time. A Russian fighter pilot later spotted the 747 and signaled the IFF (identification friend or foe) code to the pilot. When he received no answer, he fired two missiles, one of which struck the aircraft. The pilot radioed a distress call to Tokyo air traffic controllers, reporting cabin decompression and that he was beginning a descent.
Approximately 15 minutes later, the aircraft disappeared, presumably crashing into the Sea of Japan, with no survivors. (For more on what possibly happened after the crash, please see my other thread on this subject.)
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squad55
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:59 am

They were also flying with no nav lights on. The Russians thought because of 007 it was a spy plane.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:17 am

747Buff - I think you will find the Height of the cold war was about 20 years earlier (though admittedly the Early 80's weren't all that great either).

Squad 55 - The Russians thought because of 007 it was a spy plane. lol!!!

V/F
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LY744
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:28 am

There was a USAF RC-135 Rivet Joint in the area at the time, the Soviets said they thought KL007 was it.

LY744.
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hkgspotter1
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:32 am

Put it this way, the yanks had a great deal to do with this but we will never know the truth.
 
Sonic
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:56 am

There was recently a history of that in one of major Lithuanian magazines (8 pages), "World Disasters" section (also short interview with Soviet general, who ordered to shoot down plane). So, I have to correct everything:

-Korean plane wasn't cutting flight time. Pilot forgot to turn on some system (GPS I believe) and plane didn't followed the predefined course, instead, he taken shortest course from Anchoridge to Seul.
-Plane flew with nav lights on. The pilots first didn't shot down plane because of that (they though it may be An124 I believe). However, when plane didn't responded for half an hour and Soviet civil flights control (twice asked) answered that there should be no civil flights in region, general ordered to shoot down the plane.
-747 was in Japanese frequency, because they had to flew over Japan at a time.
-One 747 a year ago also was ordered to land by Soviets, but they somehow heard that (or just seen fighters on tale) and landed on iced lake in Syberia.
-USA is also responsible for the incident, because 747 flew over US base and US pilots definately seen it. USA didn't told that to 747 because they wanted to see, how Soviets will react, etc. Such trying was important in cold war. Also, later they could use the shot down flight as propaganda.
-Soviet General who ordered to shot down plane said, that he would do the same now if the same reasons would arise. I believe he still works in military.
-After missile aircraft remained airporn for few minutes, but it only could take-off (nose up), not land (because of damaged hydraulic by the heat-reacting missile). It reached height limit and exploded.
-There is a movie made about this tragedy
-This was not the only shot down plane. US ship also shot down Iran Air A300, Ukrainians shot down Syberia Tu-154, some people believe that TWA 747 back in 1994 was also shot down.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:24 am

Sonic - some of your points need some clarification:

- It wasn't GPS, it was INS. This is Inertial Navigation System, which works on accelerometers, and is used to navigate close to the poles. If it is not calibrated correctly from startup, it will give false readings.

- It was a 707 that was forced to land in a lake in Siberia. It wasn't the year before, but over 5 years, on April 20 1978. It was on a flight from Paris. A Japanese and a South Korean were killed when the fighter straffed the aircraft, and 13 others were wounded.

- The 747 didn't climb and explode after the missile hit, it lost altitude until it disapeared of radar and crashed.

- TWA800 Crashed in 1996, not 1994.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
Hoffa
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:32 am

Put it this way, the yanks had a great deal to do with this but we will never know the truth.

Translation: I'd like to accuse America here but I don't really have any thing to back up my nonsense so I'll just make a really vague sounding post.

I'd ask you to elaborate, but its clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Hoffa
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:34 am

USA is also responsible for the incident, because 747 flew over US base and US pilots definately seen it. USA didn't told that to 747 because they wanted to see, how Soviets will react, etc. Such trying was important in cold war. Also, later they could use the shot down flight as propaganda.

Do you have any proof of this? How about a link?
 
764ER
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:01 am

Sonic and Hkgspotter1. You guys are hilarious.

As a reasonable person, it is quite obvious who is responsible for this. Not the US (as some of you love to blame for EVERYTHING  Insane ), not the pilot, not the Japan radar operators... Let's give credit where credit is due and not try to spin everything against a country you don't like. HOW ABOUT BLAMING THE SOVIETS? After all, they were the ones who shot the plane down. But it's so easy to overlook that when you're blind.  Insane
 
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:14 am

Possible the airspace rules will be somewhat the same as the ones that applied to #007, but, just out of interest, are the rules for overflying North Korea?
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:57 pm

764er - I wouldnt be so quick to take some of those things out of the equation. Of course, the Soviet Air Force has to take main responsibility for the fact it shot down a comercial airliner which obviously shows that a positive visual identification was not made. However, there are other things that come into question. If the pilot had have operated the INS correctly or followed the correct path or whatever it was that he did wrong that caused the aircraft to end up in a dangerous spot, the accident would most likely have neer happened. If the traffic controlers had have realised what was going on (which I don't believe they did at the time), then they could have warned the crew. Which raises the question of how closely a control centre should be following a transiting aircraft. IF (and this is a very big IF) the Americans had have been using KE007 as a baiting operation, how was it that this was allowed to happen.

Its very easy to lay blame in an accident, but laying blame isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is correctly identifying what usually are a raft of failures and breakdowns that led to the accident, and remedying them so it wont happen again. We won't make aviation any safer by pointing fingers, and making a scapegoat of one thing. This may appeal to viewers of CNN or BBC who want everything to fit into neat 5 minute articles, but the nuts and bolts of it is we will only make it safer by looking at the whole picture, and identifying and fixing all the problems. This may be complex, and time consuming, but it is necessary.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
CV990
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:10 pm


Hi!

For me all that was said here is relevant, my only problem is why they have to use inocent people to work diferent purposes? Tomorrow you are in a civil airliner flying from airport A to airport B and suddenly you're hit by a missile or something deadly like that, it's not fare! Remember the ITAVIA DC-9? Yes it was hit by a missile, anyone assume the guilty on that too? The Iran Air A300?
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
gerardo
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:46 pm

CV990,

It's cruel, but that's life. There were many examples in history, where innocent people were misused. Add to your list the WTC attacks, or any hijacking, or many other examples.

Gerardo
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L-188
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:54 pm

It is belived that Rivit Joint was operating up near Petroplavesk(spl?) at the time of the shoot down...

Several hundred miles north of the sea of Japan.
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Guest

RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:33 pm

764er

The Soviets should be held responsible? But was it not the South Koreans who entered Soviet airspace illegally. If the crew knew they were acting illegally, which they would have known via onboard equipment, they have knowingly put the lives of their passengers in danger.

The Soviets are responsible for shooting down the aircraft in the sense that it was their fighters who shot it down, but they can not be blamed for the lunacy of the crew on that flight.

Also, someone mentioned the Iran Air A300 which was shot down by the USS Vincennes in 1988. KAL007 and IR655 can not be compared, as each was a unique incident with varying degrees of facts which led to the result of an aircraft being shot down.
 
pacificjourney
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Sixstaransett

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:37 pm

DPRK airspace was cleared (amongst great hoopla in this part of the world) for KE, Korea to Nth America/Nth Japan flights in 1998 or so.

Have been on many of those flights and they don't fly over DPRK so don't know what happened about it all.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Sonic
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RE: Korean Air That Was Downed

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:17 pm

Hoffa, as I said, I read about this crash in Lithuanian magazine and I written what I read... I don't know any sites about it in the net, but you may search and I believe you'd find.