Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:18 pm

stl07 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Sure, there are people who go skiing. But not as many as those flying to the islands.


Agreed, looking back I would rephrase what I said.
Although, DL is adding IND-SLC for the winter so maybe my remark was heard...

I have noticed an odd trend in which cities from the midwest (esp. MCI,STL) receive downgraded service to big city ski destinations (SLC,DEN) in the winter. I don't know if this is because those fights have been repurposed to ski destinations like Aspen or Jackson, or the airlines have added capacity to big ski cities from larger cities (ORD). Another reason I can speculate is that national park tourists want to come during the summer.


Part of it is also that DL is sending more and more west bound traffic through MSP, a lot of mid-sized cities can support SLC flights but DL prefers to use its RJs elsewhere I guess.

stl07 wrote:
There has been a lot of rumors and events in STL that are hinting up to a long haul flight(New part of a concourse opening separate from WN's new gates, additional incentives, officials having meetings with european airlines, look on STL form for others).Someone on an STL form on another site even said "I get the feeling that there is a lot of pieces coming together on this that its much more serious." While it would be great for STL and give hope for the entire midwest in general if it happens, Im unsure what the effect would be on IND given the fact it only a 3 hour drive away, if any at all. What I'm hoping comes from this situation is that STL gets a flight on a 787 to Europe and IND gets a 757 to a different European city which would give both cities a flight without killing the other city's chance of a flight.


The thing that will help IND and STL is that CLE has been more focussed on low-cost flights. In an October IND airport board meeting, members said they were competing with Nashville, Tenn., and St. Louis airports for international flights. However if STL gets a flight it shouldn't affect any other city's chances(except MCI), ORD is about 30 minutes to an hour closer than STL, so if ORD doesn't affect IND chances STL shouldn't either. On a different note, I spoke with someone from the Indiana economic development corportation, and they told me that I should expect to see the LON flight during either the summer or the fall of this year... but I won't believe it until I see it
 
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cjg225
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:47 pm

Indy wrote:
Without traffic or construction it is just shy of a 4 hour drive. It is just over 4 hours from Carmel/Fishers. If people are going to make that kind of drive they will probably drive to ORD. Business travelers aren't going to travel like that so neither city having the service is likely to harm the chances of the other getting service as well.

O&D, not ORD. Origin & Destination traffic.
Midwestindy wrote:
Correct IND is mostly O&D, except WN actually routes some connections through IND: 2012 connecting traffic 4.6%/170,611 of the total passenger number (however that number will have increased because of WN's adds in IND since 2012), 1990 it was 28.2 % and in 2005 it was 14.2 %.

Ah, that's right. I keep forgetting about WN. That makes sense.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:29 am

cjg225 wrote:
Indy wrote:
Without traffic or construction it is just shy of a 4 hour drive. It is just over 4 hours from Carmel/Fishers. If people are going to make that kind of drive they will probably drive to ORD. Business travelers aren't going to travel like that so neither city having the service is likely to harm the chances of the other getting service as well.

O&D, not ORD. Origin & Destination traffic.
Ah, that's right. I keep forgetting about WN. That makes sense.


Sorry I meant to reply to a different user. I think the post was a couple before yours that I accidentally clicked reply on. It had referenced drive time to STL.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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atypical
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:56 am

With IND look at two areas to measure health of the market. First is WN. WN added a great deal of service last year and has maintained it. Second is SFO. Service has gone from zero to three daily flights and the test will be if two of those flights remain in a year. The reason these two areas are critical is they measure demand beyond what the airport is serving. For example the SFO market had a measured demand that justified the original UA flight (with financial incentives). Carrying an additional flight (much less two) doesn't seem to be justified unless some downgaging occurs. If an additional flight is sustainable then the market has untapped demand (as measured by the original ultimate destination measurements) or is probably leaking heavily to another airport. WN added a 9.8% increase of flights in 2016 which also shows an untapped or leaking market.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 pm

The SFO service will be interesting. If we just base our opinion of success or failure of 3x daily to SFO on data provided by sites like Faremeasure.com we will probably be wrong. Who here remembers when ATA was around and IND had mountains of service to MCO and LAS? It was insane the number of seats offered to these destinations yet flights were nearly full. I remember flying to LAS when IND had 3 carriers on the route and TZ was flying wide body jets. The L1011 I was on was at 100% capacity each way. I noticed the same when flying to/from MCO. The flights were always at or near capacity.

There seems to be something about air service that cannot be measured like any other normal business demand. How is it that all indications are (as an example) that a route cannot support more than 250 seats a day yet airlines can book to capacity 500 seats a day? What about SFO? How can we go from 0x to 3x daily in just a few years? There are a few possible reasons. Increased competition could make fares to SFO more affordable which would open the route to people who may have opted to fly elsewhere or not fly at all. Perhaps the schedule flexibility is more appealing to businesses and it makes conferences in SFO or IND more doable. Then there are the customers that are in the middle between IND and airports like CVG, ORD and STL. Having the additional frequencies may make IND more appealing. I guess only time will tell.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:14 pm

Indy wrote:
The SFO service will be interesting. If we just base our opinion of success or failure of 3x daily to SFO on data provided by sites like Faremeasure.com we will probably be wrong. Who here remembers when ATA was around and IND had mountains of service to MCO and LAS? It was insane the number of seats offered to these destinations yet flights were nearly full. I remember flying to LAS when IND had 3 carriers on the route and TZ was flying wide body jets. The L1011 I was on was at 100% capacity each way. I noticed the same when flying to/from MCO. The flights were always at or near capacity.

There seems to be something about air service that cannot be measured like any other normal business demand. How is it that all indications are (as an example) that a route cannot support more than 250 seats a day yet airlines can book to capacity 500 seats a day? What about SFO? How can we go from 0x to 3x daily in just a few years? There are a few possible reasons. Increased competition could make fares to SFO more affordable which would open the route to people who may have opted to fly elsewhere or not fly at all. Perhaps the schedule flexibility is more appealing to businesses and it makes conferences in SFO or IND more doable. Then there are the customers that are in the middle between IND and airports like CVG, ORD and STL. Having the additional frequencies may make IND more appealing. I guess only time will tell.


While we are on the subject of ATA, if I recall correctly in the past they had a IND-SJC flight, which makes me a little upset that AS didn't try to do IND-SJC or SAN before IND-SFO, because the E-175(although at the edge) has the legs to do SJC/SAN/and even PDX-IND and there was even enough demand for a IND-SAN in a b737. The only explaination I can think of is they thought UA wouldn't retaliate...because there simply aren't enough O&D passengers(yet) to have 3 A319s a day on that route.

I say this because it is very hard for a new carrier to just jump in on a business route like SFO-IND, because many of the flyers on that route are loyal to UA and use UA to make connections to Asia. They probably would have gained more of a following if they opened SAN/SJC/PDX then SFO(although I doubt they would open up SJC and SFO). That being said in an interview the airport alluded to the fact that we should expect more flights on the IND-SAN route so I assume AS will be adding flights to SAN any way.

Alaska's interest in expanding in IND:http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/35408701/alaska-airlines-seattle-could-be-first-of-even-more

IMO they should have added in this order 1.SEA 2.SAN 3.PDX 4.SJC or SFO 5.LAX 6.p2p SNA/SMF
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:54 am

http://wishtv.com/2017/06/15/developers ... -from-ind/

"The goal is to secure the flight(TATL) by the end of the year. There’s no timetable as to when passengers will be able to check in. As for those domestic nonstop flights, Develop Indy said they’re focused on getting the transatlantic trip — then they’ll turn to domestic flights."
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
http://wishtv.com/2017/06/15/developers-work-to-add-nonstop-transatlantic-flight-from-ind/

"The goal is to secure the flight(TATL) by the end of the year. There’s no timetable as to when passengers will be able to check in. As for those domestic nonstop flights, Develop Indy said they’re focused on getting the transatlantic trip — then they’ll turn to domestic flights."


And it just got an even bigger boost....

https://www.ibj.com/articles/64281-indi ... al-flights

Looks like the IAA is very serious about this. Up to $400k for marketing and promotion. I would love to see a list of all incentives being offered between the airport authority and the various government and business agencies. I think it is starting to pile up.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:43 pm

I would like to see it as well, and how our incentives stack up against STL,BNA,CVG,CMH... btw check out the entire package here;
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... EBSITE.pdf
It starts on page #17.
In the wishtv interview, they were filming outside the United check in. Can we read in to that?
And re; the focus city development pg.#20 they mentioned Jet Blue as an example. Would be nice having more competition and a flight to Jamaica.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:48 pm

I can't speak for the other airports, but here is CVG's subsidiary plan: http://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default-source/concession-documents/cvg-asip.pdf?sfvrsn=4.

For new year round TATL (or Pacific) routes served at least 4x/week (a route operating only part of the year would count for this if it has 4x/week average over the year), CVG waives all FIS/Landing/Gate/Ticket Counter fees for 24 months and provides $800,000 in monetary support ($400,000 per year).

Seasonal service not meeting the 4x/week average but maintaining a 2x/week average for 16 weeks gets all the fees waived for 24 months and $300,000 in monetary support ($150,000 per year).
Next: CVG-BOS-CVG, Delta Air Lines
A319/320/332/333, B1900D, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, DC-9, ERJ-135/40/45/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:03 pm

IndEagle wrote:
I would like to see it as well, and how our incentives stack up against STL,BNA,CVG,CMH... btw check out the entire package here;
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... EBSITE.pdf
It starts on page #17.
In the wishtv interview, they were filming outside the United check in. Can we read in to that?
And re; the focus city development pg.#20 they mentioned Jet Blue as an example. Would be nice having more competition and a flight to Jamaica.


Wow thanks for sharing, here is a summary for those who haven't read it

According to the airport top unserved markets are: BDL, SNA, PDX, SMF, SAT, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, LHR: All landing fees waived, 0.25% ‘turn credit’, $30,000 in marketing support,
According to the airport top underserved markets are: FLL, SAV, MSY, SAN, AUS, SLC, RDU, JAX (Some of those are highly debateable): 50% of landing fees waived, 0.125%‘turn credit’, $10,000 inmarketing support
According to the airport top unserved international markets are: SJD, MBJ, FRA, LHR:All landing fees waived, All international processing fees waived, All remote overnight parking fees waived, 0.25% ‘turn credit’, $50,000 in marketing support
For focus city development the airport will offer these incentives over 2 years: All landing fees waived, > 0.25% ‘turn credit’ per flight, $50,000 inmarketing support
The airport will offer seasonal service incentives for the first year: All landing fees waived, $2,000 of ‘in-terminal’ marketing support(table-tops, banners, etc.)
The airport will also offer incentives for 1 year for international cargo: 50% landing fees waived, and 100% parking fees waived as well
New entrant passenger carrier incentives will be: All landing fees waived, All remote overnight parking fees waived, $50,000 in marketing support, Passenger baggage claim fees waived, or 0.25% ‘turn credit’
To encourage and support new nonstop airservice to specific West Coast destinations, an additional year of turn credits($100Kmax) and an additional$120,000 in marketing support to promote the service from IND is available.

Reading into the United detail, I dont think there is too much to take away. The only place UA would logically serve from IND is CUN, but that is probably a stretch, TATL would be DL/AA/BA.

Regarding B6, these incentives would have been perfect for B6 around 2-5 years ago, however it is probably too late for B6 to create a focus city in IND. But, these incentives could at least convince B6 to open operations in IND

Relating to competition with peers, IND just took a huge step forward, "This incentive is based on operations and equipment. Thus, the financial impact will vary. As an example, the
estimated incentive for international daily service on a Boeing 787 is approximately $1.0M." Which doesn't include any of the 15 million in state money that is available....
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:45 pm

BTW does anyone know why IND still hasn't released the March-May passenger numbers?
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:35 pm

There is probably a newer one for STL, but I did find this PDF that states these incentives are in effect through 2017

http://flystlbusiness.com/portals/0/Air ... rogram.pdf
 
stl07
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:51 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
IndEagle wrote:
I would like to see it as well, and how our incentives stack up against STL,BNA,CVG,CMH... btw check out the entire package here;
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... EBSITE.pdf
It starts on page #17.
In the wishtv interview, they were filming outside the United check in. Can we read in to that?
And re; the focus city development pg.#20 they mentioned Jet Blue as an example. Would be nice having more competition and a flight to Jamaica.


Wow thanks for sharing, here is a summary for those who haven't read it

According to the airport top unserved markets are: BDL, SNA, PDX, SMF, SAT, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, LHR: All landing fees waived, 0.25% ‘turn credit’, $30,000 in marketing support,
According to the airport top underserved markets are: FLL, SAV, MSY, SAN, AUS, SLC, RDU, JAX (Some of those are highly debateable): 50% of landing fees waived, 0.125%‘turn credit’, $10,000 inmarketing support
According to the airport top unserved international markets are: SJD, MBJ, FRA, LHR:All landing fees waived, All international processing fees waived, All remote overnight parking fees waived, 0.25% ‘turn credit’, $50,000 in marketing support
For focus city development the airport will offer these incentives over 2 years: All landing fees waived, > 0.25% ‘turn credit’ per flight, $50,000 inmarketing support
The airport will offer seasonal service incentives for the first year: All landing fees waived, $2,000 of ‘in-terminal’ marketing support(table-tops, banners, etc.)
The airport will also offer incentives for 1 year for international cargo: 50% landing fees waived, and 100% parking fees waived as well
New entrant passenger carrier incentives will be: All landing fees waived, All remote overnight parking fees waived, $50,000 in marketing support, Passenger baggage claim fees waived, or 0.25% ‘turn credit’
To encourage and support new nonstop airservice to specific West Coast destinations, an additional year of turn credits($100Kmax) and an additional$120,000 in marketing support to promote the service from IND is available.

Reading into the United detail, I dont think there is too much to take away. The only place UA would logically serve from IND is CUN, but that is probably a stretch, TATL would be DL/AA/BA.

Regarding B6, these incentives would have been perfect for B6 around 2-5 years ago, however it is probably too late for B6 to create a focus city in IND. But, these incentives could at least convince B6 to open operations in IND

Relating to competition with peers, IND just took a huge step forward, "This incentive is based on operations and equipment. Thus, the financial impact will vary. As an example, the
estimated incentive for international daily service on a Boeing 787 is approximately $1.0M." Which doesn't include any of the 15 million in state money that is available....

Interesting. Could this be in response to the more than rumors of a TATL in STL? Just as an update--WN opened new gates in STL without expanding service, presumably to vacate international gates they use for domestic flights, and the city announced intentions of building gates that could support a wide body in the AA/AL concourse, both of which have a BA codeshare.
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:58 am

stl07 wrote:
Interesting. Could this be in response to the more than rumors of a TATL in STL? Just as an update--WN opened new gates in STL without expanding service, presumably to vacate international gates they use for domestic flights, and the city announced intentions of building gates that could support a wide body in the AA/AL concourse, both of which have a BA codeshare.


The link that IndEagle shared said,"As staff continues to aggressively pursue international service, this incentive will be critical to competitively position IND amongst peers also pursuing similar service opportunities." So some of it may be related to STL, but these incentives are just common sense move to put IND on an equal playing field with other cities...

However, don't forget IND has $ on its side, along with international gates that can support B787/B77/A380/and other large aircraft, plus the airport director/state government/Develop Indy have all strongly indicated or even said that London should be expected at least by the end of the year...
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:03 am

Would love IND-BNA on WN.
Herb Kelleher>Gary Kelly
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:31 am

southwest1675 wrote:
Would love IND-BNA on WN.


I would like IND-BNA as well, the lack of non-stop flights has impeded my ability to make more than a few trips to BNA, but it could be announced June 22nd....
 
Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:04 pm

IND-AZA was announced this morning bringing IND to 47 nonstop destinations, the highest for the new terminal...
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
IND-AZA was announced this morning bringing IND to 47 nonstop destinations, the highest for the new terminal...


I was going to ask what the record is for nonstop destinations out of IND but I would guess it was something much larger during the US hub days when they had nearly 150 daily departures at one time. I am thinking the max departures for them was 147.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
kavok
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Interesting. Could this be in response to the more than rumors of a TATL in STL? Just as an update--WN opened new gates in STL without expanding service, presumably to vacate international gates they use for domestic flights, and the city announced intentions of building gates that could support a wide body in the AA/AL concourse, both of which have a BA codeshare.


The link that IndEagle shared said,"As staff continues to aggressively pursue international service, this incentive will be critical to competitively position IND amongst peers also pursuing similar service opportunities." So some of it may be related to STL, but these incentives are just common sense move to put IND on an equal playing field with other cities...

However, don't forget IND has $ on its side, along with international gates that can support B787/B77/A380/and other large aircraft, plus the airport director/state government/Develop Indy have all strongly indicated or even said that London should be expected at least by the end of the year...



I don't really see how IND is competing with STL, CLE, PIT, etc. for international service. Perhaps there is some cachement overlap with CVG, but that is about it. The reasons for this are:

1- If IND (or STL, CLE, etc.) gets TransAtl service, it is not going to be a cheap ticket. This means that your super cost-conscious pax are still driving to ORD, where there is actual competition on the route between different carriers to bring the cost down. Since STL,CLE, etc. would also be more expensive, a Indiana pax is not going to drive there over ORD.

2- Since flights from IND will cost more than ORD, the users of the IND TransAtl flight will either be business oriented pax, or pax who don't mind paying more to be able to fly direct from IND. Again these are pax who are likely flying from IND today, and connecting in hubs like ORD/DTW/JFK/ATL/etc. Either way, they are not connecting in non-hubs like CLE/STL either.

3- Basically the group of pax who would fly the direct route from IND are not pax who would drive to CLE/STL/etc. or connect through CLE/STL/etc. Thus since there is no competition between IND and CLE,STL,etc. in terms of pax bases to draw from, what happens at those other airports should not have any negative impact on what can happen at IND. If anything, the opposite is true where other airports could should that Midwestern cities like IND can in fact make TransAtl flights work profitably.
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:37 pm

kavok wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Interesting. Could this be in response to the more than rumors of a TATL in STL? Just as an update--WN opened new gates in STL without expanding service, presumably to vacate international gates they use for domestic flights, and the city announced intentions of building gates that could support a wide body in the AA/AL concourse, both of which have a BA codeshare.


The link that IndEagle shared said,"As staff continues to aggressively pursue international service, this incentive will be critical to competitively position IND amongst peers also pursuing similar service opportunities." So some of it may be related to STL, but these incentives are just common sense move to put IND on an equal playing field with other cities...

However, don't forget IND has $ on its side, along with international gates that can support B787/B77/A380/and other large aircraft, plus the airport director/state government/Develop Indy have all strongly indicated or even said that London should be expected at least by the end of the year...



I don't really see how IND is competing with STL, CLE, PIT, etc. for international service. Perhaps there is some cachement overlap with CVG, but that is about it. The reasons for this are:

1- If IND (or STL, CLE, etc.) gets TransAtl service, it is not going to be a cheap ticket. This means that your super cost-conscious pax are still driving to ORD, where there is actual competition on the route between different carriers to bring the cost down. Since STL,CLE, etc. would also be more expensive, a Indiana pax is not going to drive there over ORD.

2- Since flights from IND will cost more than ORD, the users of the IND TransAtl flight will either be business oriented pax, or pax who don't mind paying more to be able to fly direct from IND. Again these are pax who are likely flying from IND today, and connecting in hubs like ORD/DTW/JFK/ATL/etc. Either way, they are not connecting in non-hubs like CLE/STL either.

3- Basically the group of pax who would fly the direct route from IND are not pax who would drive to CLE/STL/etc. or connect through CLE/STL/etc. Thus since there is no competition between IND and CLE,STL,etc. in terms of pax bases to draw from, what happens at those other airports should not have any negative impact on what can happen at IND. If anything, the opposite is true where other airports could should that Midwestern cities like IND can in fact make TransAtl flights work profitably.


My2C-
everyone is competing for who is first.
-As of now, it's only BA, DE and WW that have opened flights to secondary cities in the U.S. They have a limited amount of planes to fly.

-DE interlines with AS and SY, a nonstarter for any of the airports we are discussing.

-So that leaves DE and WW to open in one city with both or 2 separate cities and BA, who is unlikely to open multiple midwest routes at once an is mindful of cannibalizing their hub routes. In all potentially 1-3 new routes from 1-3 new cities.

I could see BA and DE opening from one city 11x weekly (max) and maybe STL or BNA adding WW, don't think the rest are ambitious enough to court all 3.

-why AA,DL,UA have yet to hop on the bandwagon is beyond me, but if they did, we could see multiple starts.
 
kavok
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:03 pm

IndEagle wrote:
kavok wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

The link that IndEagle shared said,"As staff continues to aggressively pursue international service, this incentive will be critical to competitively position IND amongst peers also pursuing similar service opportunities." So some of it may be related to STL, but these incentives are just common sense move to put IND on an equal playing field with other cities...

However, don't forget IND has $ on its side, along with international gates that can support B787/B77/A380/and other large aircraft, plus the airport director/state government/Develop Indy have all strongly indicated or even said that London should be expected at least by the end of the year...



I don't really see how IND is competing with STL, CLE, PIT, etc. for international service. Perhaps there is some cachement overlap with CVG, but that is about it. The reasons for this are:

1- If IND (or STL, CLE, etc.) gets TransAtl service, it is not going to be a cheap ticket. This means that your super cost-conscious pax are still driving to ORD, where there is actual competition on the route between different carriers to bring the cost down. Since STL,CLE, etc. would also be more expensive, a Indiana pax is not going to drive there over ORD.

2- Since flights from IND will cost more than ORD, the users of the IND TransAtl flight will either be business oriented pax, or pax who don't mind paying more to be able to fly direct from IND. Again these are pax who are likely flying from IND today, and connecting in hubs like ORD/DTW/JFK/ATL/etc. Either way, they are not connecting in non-hubs like CLE/STL either.

3- Basically the group of pax who would fly the direct route from IND are not pax who would drive to CLE/STL/etc. or connect through CLE/STL/etc. Thus since there is no competition between IND and CLE,STL,etc. in terms of pax bases to draw from, what happens at those other airports should not have any negative impact on what can happen at IND. If anything, the opposite is true where other airports could should that Midwestern cities like IND can in fact make TransAtl flights work profitably.


My2C-
everyone is competing for who is first.
-As of now, it's only BA, DE and WW that have opened flights to secondary cities in the U.S. They have a limited amount of planes to fly.

-DE interlines with AS and SY, a nonstarter for any of the airports we are discussing.

-So that leaves DE and WW to open in one city with both or 2 separate cities and BA, who is unlikely to open multiple midwest routes at once an is mindful of cannibalizing their hub routes. In all potentially 1-3 new routes from 1-3 new cities.

I could see BA and DE opening from one city 11x weekly (max) and maybe STL or BNA adding WW, don't think the rest are ambitious enough to court all 3.

-why AA,DL,UA have yet to hop on the bandwagon is beyond me, but if they did, we could see multiple starts.



Fair enough. I really think IND should be going after BA or DE. I am not sure how much WW really gets your business pax.

WW is helpful for the budget traveler, but the business pax does not want to make a connection in KEF. Connecting in KEF means you wake up in the middle of the night, and you don't get the full 6 hours or so of sleep on the way to Europe (not that it is a great sleep, but it is something). Also, you have to keep your fingers crossed that you don't miss your connection, as there aren't many options of recourse should your flight into KEF get delayed.

Yes, WW still gives Indy the ability to say "look at us, we are cool with TransAtl service". But in truth, there aren't that many more European destinations that you can connect to in KEF that you can't get to from ORD. And even with the problems that regularly happen at ORD, overall it is still nicer to fly IND-ORD-Europe than IND-KEF-Europe. Same for the return trip.
 
stl07
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:02 am

kavok wrote:
IndEagle wrote:
kavok wrote:


I don't really see how IND is competing with STL, CLE, PIT, etc. for international service. Perhaps there is some cachement overlap with CVG, but that is about it. The reasons for this are:

1- If IND (or STL, CLE, etc.) gets TransAtl service, it is not going to be a cheap ticket. This means that your super cost-conscious pax are still driving to ORD, where there is actual competition on the route between different carriers to bring the cost down. Since STL,CLE, etc. would also be more expensive, a Indiana pax is not going to drive there over ORD.

2- Since flights from IND will cost more than ORD, the users of the IND TransAtl flight will either be business oriented pax, or pax who don't mind paying more to be able to fly direct from IND. Again these are pax who are likely flying from IND today, and connecting in hubs like ORD/DTW/JFK/ATL/etc. Either way, they are not connecting in non-hubs like CLE/STL either.

3- Basically the group of pax who would fly the direct route from IND are not pax who would drive to CLE/STL/etc. or connect through CLE/STL/etc. Thus since there is no competition between IND and CLE,STL,etc. in terms of pax bases to draw from, what happens at those other airports should not have any negative impact on what can happen at IND. If anything, the opposite is true where other airports could should that Midwestern cities like IND can in fact make TransAtl flights work profitably.


My2C-
everyone is competing for who is first.
-As of now, it's only BA, DE and WW that have opened flights to secondary cities in the U.S. They have a limited amount of planes to fly.

-DE interlines with AS and SY, a nonstarter for any of the airports we are discussing.

-So that leaves DE and WW to open in one city with both or 2 separate cities and BA, who is unlikely to open multiple midwest routes at once an is mindful of cannibalizing their hub routes. In all potentially 1-3 new routes from 1-3 new cities.

I could see BA and DE opening from one city 11x weekly (max) and maybe STL or BNA adding WW, don't think the rest are ambitious enough to court all 3.

-why AA,DL,UA have yet to hop on the bandwagon is beyond me, but if they did, we could see multiple starts.



Fair enough. I really think IND should be going after BA or DE. I am not sure how much WW really gets your business pax.

WW is helpful for the budget traveler, but the business pax does not want to make a connection in KEF. Connecting in KEF means you wake up in the middle of the night, and you don't get the full 6 hours or so of sleep on the way to Europe (not that it is a great sleep, but it is something). Also, you have to keep your fingers crossed that you don't miss your connection, as there aren't many options of recourse should your flight into KEF get delayed.

Yes, WW still gives Indy the ability to say "look at us, we are cool with TransAtl service". But in truth, there aren't that many more European destinations that you can connect to in KEF that you can't get to from ORD. And even with the problems that regularly happen at ORD, overall it is still nicer to fly IND-ORD-Europe than IND-KEF-Europe. Same for the return trip.

Plus if you miss your connection you can drive or hop on a train
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:31 am

kavok wrote:
Fair enough. I really think IND should be going after BA or DE. I am not sure how much WW really gets your business pax.


I will not fly WW if they are announced from IND, and I dont think IND is chasing WW/DY right now. From all accounts they have only been in (serious) discussions with BA and UA. Although, it doesn't make sense that they would be talking with UA, considering UA doesn't fly p2p US-Europe flights, could UA be speaking on behalf of LH?
 
kavok
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:17 am

IndEagle wrote:

My2C-

-why AA,DL,UA have yet to hop on the bandwagon is beyond me, but if they did, we could see multiple starts.


Long explanation: AA/DL/UA would much prefer a pax from IND, STL, CLE, PIT, etc. to connect in their hub at ORD/JFK/DTW/EWR/ATL etc. On average, about 70% of all US traffic to Europe is going to one of LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, AMS, MAD. Now obviously the exact % varies by market, but lets say from all the IND, STL, CLE, PIT traffic heading to Europe, the number one European destination has no more than 20% of the market share of pax. This means that if, for example, BA added IND (and LHR was the #1 market from IND with 20% share), that the pax on a hypothetical flight from IND to LHR would break down as follows: 20% of pax end their journey at LHR, 50% connect to CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, AMS, MAD, and the remaining 30% are connecting in LHR to another European destination.

It is that middle 50% going to CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, AMS, MAD that AA/DL/UA want. Using the hypothetical IND-LHR flight example, the pax from IND going to CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, AMS, MAD still have to connect somewhere, be it in LHR, or in ORD/JFK/DTW/EWR/ATL. If the connection is made in LHR, then AA misses out on the flight revenue from the LHR-Europe leg of the connection. So it is BA's gain, and AA's loss. Remember the JV agreements are just for the transatlantic flight, so BA would prefer the pax connect in Europe, and AA would prefer the pax connect in ORD/JFK/PHL. If AA/DL/UA were to add a direct flight from IND to Europe, they miss out on that connection revenue from the domestic IND-ORD/JFK/DTW/EWR/ATL leg.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:35 pm

Looks like WN isn't extending the IND-SAN route after this summer, so it seems like AS could likely take that route over....
 
stlgph
Posts: 9314
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:40 pm

If Wow Air wants to come to Indianapolis, then let them come. Welcome them with open arms and see how they do. Dreams are nice but a Lufthansa 747 isn't going to be showing up anytime soon.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
flymco753
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:33 pm

If IND got LH IMO it would be Cityline.
Welcome to the city beautiful.
 
Indy
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:53 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If IND got LH IMO it would be Cityline.


From the CityLine page the only non RJ they have is the A340-300. Why that instead of a LH A330-300?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
flymco753
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:58 pm

Indy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If IND got LH IMO it would be Cityline.


From the CityLine page the only non RJ they have is the A340-300. Why that instead of a LH A330-300?
Well TPA will probably go mainline soon, so that would open up a Cityline, at least if LH gave IND a chance, down the line it could go to an A333. That seems to be what LH is doing with some medium-sized markets, using CityLine and if it's successful move it to mainline.
Welcome to the city beautiful.
 
jplatts
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:21 pm

According to the Southwest flight schedules, it appears that Southwest is dropping IND-DCA nonstop service after November 4th and reducing the number of daily nonstops between IND and BWI from 3 flights a day to 2 flights a day after January 5th.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:16 pm

jplatts wrote:
According to the Southwest flight schedules, it appears that Southwest is dropping IND-DCA nonstop service after November 4th and reducing the number of daily nonstops between IND and BWI from 3 flights a day to 2 flights a day after January 5th.


Not surprised frankly IND-north east on WN doesn't tend to do well...
flymco753 wrote:
If IND got LH IMO it would be Cityline.


I doubt LH has any interest in IND...

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