Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:00 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
http://businesstravelnews.texterity.com/businesstravelnews/september_28__2015?pg=6#pg6

I found this cool site online that lists the Top 100 companies in the world based on how much they spend on air travel expenses within the US, and I was pleasantly surprised to see some companies with large presences in the Indianapolis MSA on there.

22.Roche ( $310 million globally)
25.Raytheon
29.UTC ($164.9 million globally)
42.FedEx
70.Eli Lilly ( $140 million globally)
86.Toyota (Southwestern Indiana)


What does Toyota Motor Sales have in Indianapolis?


It's not in Indianapolis I edited it so it was more accurate for you. :lol:


I'm not sure it's accurate still. Toyota Motor Sales is cars and light trucks only, not industrial equipment or fork trucks.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

What does Toyota Motor Sales have in Indianapolis?


It's not in Indianapolis I edited it so it was more accurate for you. :lol:


I'm not sure it's accurate still. Toyota Motor Sales is cars and light trucks only, not industrial equipment or fork trucks.


https://www.toyota.com/about/images/ope ... tiled2.pdf

If you look on the map, Toyota has a Sales/Service office in Indiana, southwest of where Indianapolis would be. Toyota also makes the Highlander, Camry, Sequoia, and Sienna in Indiana, and purchases its Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings for all their US produced cars in Indiana. Plus, it has invested 4.5 billion in Indiana, with over 4,000 employees in Indiana alone.

Not sure what fork trucks or industrial equipment you mean?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:22 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

It's not in Indianapolis I edited it so it was more accurate for you. :lol:


I'm not sure it's accurate still. Toyota Motor Sales is cars and light trucks only, not industrial equipment or fork trucks.


https://www.toyota.com/about/images/ope ... tiled2.pdf

If you look on the map, Toyota has a Sales/Service office in Indiana, southwest of where Indianapolis would be. Toyota also makes the Highlander, Camry, Sequoia, and Sienna in Indiana, and purchases its Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings for all their US produced cars in Indiana. Plus, it has invested 4.5 billion in Indiana, with over 4,000 employees in Indiana alone.

Not sure what fork trucks or industrial equipment you mean?


I'm extremely familiar with Toyota's US operations on both the car side and the industrial equipment side. You might take a look at the east side of the road next time you drive down 65 through Columbus; the forklift plant usually has some trucks parked out by the road. On the car side, with the end of Camry production in Lafayette, Toyota's Indiana footprint is probably marginally smaller than it was five years ago. The light truck plant is in Princeton, much closer to EVV than to IND.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:45 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I'm not sure it's accurate still. Toyota Motor Sales is cars and light trucks only, not industrial equipment or fork trucks.


https://www.toyota.com/about/images/ope ... tiled2.pdf

If you look on the map, Toyota has a Sales/Service office in Indiana, southwest of where Indianapolis would be. Toyota also makes the Highlander, Camry, Sequoia, and Sienna in Indiana, and purchases its Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings for all their US produced cars in Indiana. Plus, it has invested 4.5 billion in Indiana, with over 4,000 employees in Indiana alone.

Not sure what fork trucks or industrial equipment you mean?


I'm extremely familiar with Toyota's US operations on both the car side and the industrial equipment side. You might take a look at the east side of the road next time you drive down 65 through Columbus; the forklift plant usually has some trucks parked out by the road. On the car side, with the end of Camry production in Lafayette, Toyota's Indiana footprint is probably marginally smaller than it was five years ago. The light truck plant is in Princeton, much closer to EVV than to IND.


Cool, but what exactly are you trying to prove? I already said most of Toyota's Indiana operations were outside of Indianapolis. But, toyota still purchases it's Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings in Indiana. Plus, as I already mentioned the Highlander, Sequoia, Sienna, and Camry are still made in Indiana. And, Toyota's employment in Indiana has grown from 4,500 (2013) to 5,314 (2016).
 
HeyHey
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:43 am

Indy wrote:
BNA is a strong domestic market. They badly lag behind in international numbers. Why is that? IND's London numbers are quite a bit higher as are the Europe numbers even with ORD 3-4 hours up the road. History has also proven that adding nonstop service stimulates demand. So if anything the passenger numbers would increase. Possibly significantly. Since BNA is isolated we know that people most likely aren't driving to other airports and having that nonstop service will pull them back to BNA. So being isolated gives a truer number that represents the limited demand for international service at BNA. IND isn't isolated and has a lot of area to draw passengers from. It can draw from CVG when people want a nonstop to London instead of making a connection in CDG, or people in Louisville who normally would just connect somewhere else. Or even east side of Chicago suburb for people who don't want to deal with the ORD mess. All BNA can do is hope the route stimulates demand. They won't be stealing passengers from other airports.


I would counter that a couple ways. The first is that BNA's numbers that I have seen quoted are from 2011. In that span of time Nashville has been transformed more than any other city with the exception of Austin, TX. It is quite literally a different city in so many ways.

You mention that BNA is isolated from other major airports, and that is true. However, there are several small (but still significant airports) within an easy drive that do frequent BNA for air service if the nonstop flights are there. Right now, many of those London passengers were going to their own airport and connecting through ATL/DTW/JFK/etc. However, with the addition of a LHR from BNA I really think they will get people driving in.

Consider:
Huntsville (HSV) - The MSA is relatively small at only ~450,000 people, but it is a very high tech, high travel economy with lots of expense accounts walking around. Lots of R&D, government contractors, and military travel. It is less than a two hour drive from Huntsville/Decatur to BNA, and there is already a culture of driving to BNA for nonstop flights (I did it for my honeymoon actually).
Knoxville (TYS) - MSA is moderate in size with ~850,000 people. BNA will capture a majority of the London traffic. Knoxville is already culturally tied to Nashville, so people will choose it over CLT if they can.
Evansville - MSA is small but travels a decent amount to BNA. My last flight had a couple that we spoke to that drove from Evansville to BNA for a flight. Evansville is closer to BNA than IND by 20-30 minutes.
Elizabethtown/Fort Knox - Small MSA of a little over ~110,000. Essentially 100% of the traffic would go through SDF previously, but travel time to BNA is only an hour and 20 minutes further than SDF. I suspect that a good chunk of that traffic will drive to BNA.
Jackson, TN - Small MSA of ~110,000. I lived near there 12 years ago. BNA will get essentially 100% of the Europe traffic from Jackson despite it being closer to MEM.
Chattanooga - MSA of 530,000. I would guess the vast majority of the Europe traffic goes to ATL or connects. There are already ten daily shuttles driving people to BNA from Chattanooga. A nonstop flight from BNA will attract a majority of those people looking to go to London from Chattanooga.

All told, there is the rough equivalent of another Nashville CSA that will now fall into the catchment area of BNA for London flights that was previously using their local airports or were travelling to SDF, IND, ATL, MEM, or TYS.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:56 am

Cubsrule wrote:
I realize it's the best we have, but those data are all 5+ years old. That's an eternity in Nashville. Heck, I was recently gone for two weeks and was shocked at the changes downtown when I returned.


Not that you questioned it but I should have noted the numbers I used was from the CY2016 FAA report.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:07 am

HeyHey wrote:
Knoxville (TYS) - MSA is moderate in size with ~850,000 people. BNA will capture a majority of the London traffic. Knoxville is already culturally tied to Nashville, so people will choose it over CLT if they can.


I will make a gentleman's wager of a of an unretouched genuine Airliners.net $1 bill that BNA-LHR will attract less than 5% of the TYS-LON loads for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I like your optimism but I think you have overestimated what BNA-LHR can capture from markets you mentioned. The may even publish another US-international city pair traffic someday so we actually see what these markets are doing on a YOY basis.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:54 am

atypical wrote:
HeyHey wrote:
Knoxville (TYS) - MSA is moderate in size with ~850,000 people. BNA will capture a majority of the London traffic. Knoxville is already culturally tied to Nashville, so people will choose it over CLT if they can.


I will make a gentleman's wager of a of an unretouched genuine Airliners.net $1 bill that BNA-LHR will attract less than 5% of the TYS-LON loads for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I like your optimism but I think you have overestimated what BNA-LHR can capture from markets you mentioned. The may even publish another US-international city pair traffic someday so we actually see what these markets are doing on a YOY basis.


The thing to remember about TYS is it's somewhat odd location. If we look at a place like Oak Ridge, which probably generates an outsized share of TYs' demand, the drive time difference is less than two hours. Is that a small enough gap that everyone will drive to BNA? Of course not, but I expect some folks will at least consider it. There's a pretty strong culture of cross-shopping (including Nashvillians driving to TYS for G4) already.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:55 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.toyota.com/about/images/ope ... tiled2.pdf

If you look on the map, Toyota has a Sales/Service office in Indiana, southwest of where Indianapolis would be. Toyota also makes the Highlander, Camry, Sequoia, and Sienna in Indiana, and purchases its Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings for all their US produced cars in Indiana. Plus, it has invested 4.5 billion in Indiana, with over 4,000 employees in Indiana alone.

Not sure what fork trucks or industrial equipment you mean?


I'm extremely familiar with Toyota's US operations on both the car side and the industrial equipment side. You might take a look at the east side of the road next time you drive down 65 through Columbus; the forklift plant usually has some trucks parked out by the road. On the car side, with the end of Camry production in Lafayette, Toyota's Indiana footprint is probably marginally smaller than it was five years ago. The light truck plant is in Princeton, much closer to EVV than to IND.


Cool, but what exactly are you trying to prove? I already said most of Toyota's Indiana operations were outside of Indianapolis. But, toyota still purchases it's Brake Components, Console, Door Trim, Exhaust Systems, Fuel Tanks, Hinges/Locks, Seats, Steel Bumpers, Bearings, and Metal Stampings in Indiana. Plus, as I already mentioned the Highlander, Sequoia, Sienna, and Camry are still made in Indiana. And, Toyota's employment in Indiana has grown from 4,500 (2013) to 5,314 (2016).


Let's at least be accurate. As I mentioned, Camry production in Indiana ended around Memorial Day 2016.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:33 pm

HeyHey wrote:
Indy wrote:

Consider:
Huntsville (HSV) - The MSA is relatively small at only ~450,000 people, but it is a very high tech, high travel economy with lots of expense accounts walking around. Lots of R&D, government contractors, and military travel. It is less than a two hour drive from Huntsville/Decatur to BNA, and there is already a culture of driving to BNA for nonstop flights (I did it for my honeymoon actually).
Knoxville (TYS) - MSA is moderate in size with ~850,000 people. BNA will capture a majority of the London traffic. Knoxville is already culturally tied to Nashville, so people will choose it over CLT if they can.
Evansville - MSA is small but travels a decent amount to BNA. My last flight had a couple that we spoke to that drove from Evansville to BNA for a flight. Evansville is closer to BNA than IND by 20-30 minutes.
Elizabethtown/Fort Knox - Small MSA of a little over ~110,000. Essentially 100% of the traffic would go through SDF previously, but travel time to BNA is only an hour and 20 minutes further than SDF. I suspect that a good chunk of that traffic will drive to BNA.
Jackson, TN - Small MSA of ~110,000. I lived near there 12 years ago. BNA will get essentially 100% of the Europe traffic from Jackson despite it being closer to MEM.
Chattanooga - MSA of 530,000. I would guess the vast majority of the Europe traffic goes to ATL or connects. There are already ten daily shuttles driving people to BNA from Chattanooga. A nonstop flight from BNA will attract a majority of those people looking to go to London from Chattanooga.

All told, there is the rough equivalent of another Nashville CSA that will now fall into the catchment area of BNA for London flights that was previously using their local airports or were travelling to SDF, IND, ATL, MEM, or TYS.


The cities you are mentioning are 2+ away from BNA, if I included every city that was 2 hours or less from IND, you would have CVG/DAY/SDF/FWA/NW Indiana/Eastern Illinois. That wouldn't make any sense, so lets keep it around a 1 hour drive. As someone mentioned earlier, people drive only if it saves time and especially money. Knoxville/Chattanooga travelers can save more money by flying out of ATL/CLT, because of cheaper fares and Chattanooga is closer to ATL(which has two carriers to London, and Elizabethtown is closer to CVG than BNA so if they are going to Europe they can fly through there.

Catchment area has been discussed pretty thoroughly though, so its probably time to move on from that topic
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
HeyHey wrote:
Indy wrote:

Consider:
Huntsville (HSV) - The MSA is relatively small at only ~450,000 people, but it is a very high tech, high travel economy with lots of expense accounts walking around. Lots of R&D, government contractors, and military travel. It is less than a two hour drive from Huntsville/Decatur to BNA, and there is already a culture of driving to BNA for nonstop flights (I did it for my honeymoon actually).
Knoxville (TYS) - MSA is moderate in size with ~850,000 people. BNA will capture a majority of the London traffic. Knoxville is already culturally tied to Nashville, so people will choose it over CLT if they can.
Evansville - MSA is small but travels a decent amount to BNA. My last flight had a couple that we spoke to that drove from Evansville to BNA for a flight. Evansville is closer to BNA than IND by 20-30 minutes.
Elizabethtown/Fort Knox - Small MSA of a little over ~110,000. Essentially 100% of the traffic would go through SDF previously, but travel time to BNA is only an hour and 20 minutes further than SDF. I suspect that a good chunk of that traffic will drive to BNA.
Jackson, TN - Small MSA of ~110,000. I lived near there 12 years ago. BNA will get essentially 100% of the Europe traffic from Jackson despite it being closer to MEM.
Chattanooga - MSA of 530,000. I would guess the vast majority of the Europe traffic goes to ATL or connects. There are already ten daily shuttles driving people to BNA from Chattanooga. A nonstop flight from BNA will attract a majority of those people looking to go to London from Chattanooga.

All told, there is the rough equivalent of another Nashville CSA that will now fall into the catchment area of BNA for London flights that was previously using their local airports or were travelling to SDF, IND, ATL, MEM, or TYS.


The cities you are mentioning are 2+ away from BNA, if I included every city that was 2 hours or less from IND, you would have CVG/DAY/SDF/FWA/NW Indiana/Eastern Illinois. That wouldn't make any sense, so lets keep it around a 1 hour drive. As someone mentioned earlier, people drive only if it saves time and especially money. Knoxville/Chattanooga travelers can save more money by flying out of ATL/CLT, because of cheaper fares and Chattanooga is closer to ATL(which has two carriers to London, and Elizabethtown is closer to CVG than BNA so if they are going to Europe they can fly through there.

Catchment area has been discussed pretty thoroughly though, so its probably time to move on from that topic


We are talking about distances that require thought and nuance now. In the BNA TATL thread, Chattanooga folks have said they will drive to BNA for the service. Understanding Atlanta traffic and the fact that ATL is not the most user-friendly airport, I believe them. How large is the number? That's the harder question, but it's obviously more than zero and less than 100 percent.

It's no different from Fort Wayne or Dayton vis a vis IND. They are worth some attention but also not the be all end all.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:39 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
HeyHey wrote:


The cities you are mentioning are 2+ away from BNA, if I included every city that was 2 hours or less from IND, you would have CVG/DAY/SDF/FWA/NW Indiana/Eastern Illinois. That wouldn't make any sense, so lets keep it around a 1 hour drive. As someone mentioned earlier, people drive only if it saves time and especially money. Knoxville/Chattanooga travelers can save more money by flying out of ATL/CLT, because of cheaper fares and Chattanooga is closer to ATL(which has two carriers to London, and Elizabethtown is closer to CVG than BNA so if they are going to Europe they can fly through there.

Catchment area has been discussed pretty thoroughly though, so its probably time to move on from that topic


We are talking about distances that require thought and nuance now. In the BNA TATL thread, Chattanooga folks have said they will drive to BNA for the service. Understanding Atlanta traffic and the fact that ATL is not the most user-friendly airport, I believe them. How large is the number? That's the harder question, but it's obviously more than zero and less than 100 percent.

It's no different from Fort Wayne or Dayton vis a vis IND. They are worth some attention but also not the be all end all.


For the sake of this discussion lets use the 2011 numbers because they include the smaller metros
BNA
Chattanooga: Pax to London: 1,218
Knoxville: Pax to London: 6,916
Huntsville: Pax to London: Not Available

IND
Dayton: Pax to London: 8,189
Louisville: Pax to London: 10,182
Cincinnati: Pax to London: 26,178 - has its own TATL, so numbers will be cut down
Fort Wayne: Pax to London: Not Available
Champaign/Bloomington, IL: Pax to London: Not Available
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12336
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

The cities you are mentioning are 2+ away from BNA, if I included every city that was 2 hours or less from IND, you would have CVG/DAY/SDF/FWA/NW Indiana/Eastern Illinois. That wouldn't make any sense, so lets keep it around a 1 hour drive. As someone mentioned earlier, people drive only if it saves time and especially money. Knoxville/Chattanooga travelers can save more money by flying out of ATL/CLT, because of cheaper fares and Chattanooga is closer to ATL(which has two carriers to London, and Elizabethtown is closer to CVG than BNA so if they are going to Europe they can fly through there.

Catchment area has been discussed pretty thoroughly though, so its probably time to move on from that topic


We are talking about distances that require thought and nuance now. In the BNA TATL thread, Chattanooga folks have said they will drive to BNA for the service. Understanding Atlanta traffic and the fact that ATL is not the most user-friendly airport, I believe them. How large is the number? That's the harder question, but it's obviously more than zero and less than 100 percent.

It's no different from Fort Wayne or Dayton vis a vis IND. They are worth some attention but also not the be all end all.


For the sake of this discussion lets use the 2011 numbers because they include the smaller metros
BNA
Chattanooga: Pax to London: 1,218
Knoxville: Pax to London: 6,916
Huntsville: Pax to London: Not Available

IND
Dayton: Pax to London: 8,189
Louisville: Pax to London: 10,182
Cincinnati: Pax to London: 26,178 - has its own TATL, so numbers will be cut down
Fort Wayne: Pax to London: Not Available
Champaign/Bloomington, IL: Pax to London: Not Available


Keep in mind that those data do not capture passengers who now drive to a hub but might shift that drive to BNA or IND with service.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:21 pm

IND does lag behind its competition in terms of F500 companies, but IND has F500 companies like Lilly, that help IND pull above its weight in terms of Int'l travel
IND:4 (Cummins, Lilly, Anthem, Simon) 1 in Corporate Travel 100
CMH:5 (Cardinal Health, Nationwide, AEP, L Brands, Big Lots) 0 in Corporate Travel 100
CLE:7 (Goodyear, Progressive, Sherwin-Williams, Parker Hanifin, First Energy, Travel Centers of America, J.M. Smucker) 0 in Corporate Travel 100
STL:9 (Express Scrips, Centene, Emerson, Montsanto, Edward Jones, Ameren, Olin, Reinsurance, Graybar Electric) 1 in Corporate Travel 100

In terms of airline affiliation, STL is probably a better fit if it is BA, because of the AA FF base. But I think IND is a better fit for DL.
STL: American (Lounge)
CLE: United (Lounge)
IND: Delta (Lounge)
CMH: Delta (No Lounge)

Catchment Area, just looking at CSA alone:
CLE: 3.5million −0.92%
STL: 2.9million +0.67%
CMH: 2.44million +5.84%
IND: 2.4million +5.28%

Incentives I am not sure on for each city, but I believe STL and IND might be offering the most incentives
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:30 pm

Good luck for any AA and WN FFs trying to get into IND on Wednesday, flights Sunday should be interesting as well...

AC YYZ-IND nonstop: $1,157 one-way

WN Nonstop PHX-IND: Sold out
WN Nonstop LAX-IND: Sold out
WN Nonstop DEN-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop ATL-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop LAS-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop TPA-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop DCA-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop BOS-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop BWI-IND: 1 Sold out
WN Nonstop MCO-IND: Sold out

AA ORD-IND 4/8 nonstops are booked out, the rest are charging at the least: $1,294 one way! Thursday is charging $134!
AA DFW-IND 3/5 nonstops are completely booked out, lowest price is $729 one way
AA CLT-IND nonstop lowest price $770 one way
AA LGA-IND nonstop lowest price $712 one way
AA PHL-IND nonstop lowest price $577 one way

DL SLC-IND nonstop $733

There are other ones as well...
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:07 am

It is crazy with Gen Con in town.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
flyboy80
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:10 am

So, if it was Delta to gain the TATL- what would the 'most' likely destination and equipment be? Would it be daily, daily seasonally? Is everyone fairly confident Delta would initially use a 757 for AMS, LHR, or CDG?
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:50 am

Indy wrote:
It is crazy with Gen Con in town.


I'm hearing 75,000 unique attendees! So yeah, great event for the city to host, and great event to fill up the planes!

flyboy80 wrote:
So, if it was Delta to gain the TATL- what would the 'most' likely destination and equipment be? Would it be daily, daily seasonally? Is everyone fairly confident Delta would initially use a 757 for AMS, LHR, or CDG?


Not saying IND is going to happen, but DL employees have been saying that DL was going to be announcing new Int'l routes starting with MCO, and sure enough MCO-AMS happened, this coupled with the fact that IND is talking with an "airline" about flights to AMS, which could be announced in the near future has led me to believe IND-AMS is a real possibility.

As I mentioned earlier, IF it happens it will likely be DL IND-AMS, because that is what is being discussed right now between IND and DL, so that is the most likely. LHR is unlikely because it doesn't have many connections on either end, CDG is unlikely as well as they operate to CDG from both CVG and ORD. Whether it would be seasonal I don't know, but 3-4x weekly seems like a good way to start off. A 757 is pushing it on the range a little bit from IND to AMS (3614nm) but it should do the trick, if not DL might be able to find a 767ER to operate on the route instead.
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:42 am

IND should be able to support a 767 daily to Europe. I'm sure whatever equipment gets used will be supported by good cargo contracts.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
cvgComair
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:54 am

Midwestindy wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
So, if it was Delta to gain the TATL- what would the 'most' likely destination and equipment be? Would it be daily, daily seasonally? Is everyone fairly confident Delta would initially use a 757 for AMS, LHR, or CDG?

Not saying IND is going to happen, but DL employees have been saying that DL was going to be announcing new Int'l routes starting with MCO, and sure enough MCO-AMS happened, this coupled with the fact that IND is talking with an "airline" about flights to AMS, which could be announced in the near future has led me to believe IND-AMS is a real possibility.

As I mentioned earlier, IF it happens it will likely be DL IND-AMS, because that is what is being discussed right now between IND and DL, so that is the most likely. LHR is unlikely because it doesn't have many connections on either end, CDG is unlikely as well as they operate to CDG from both CVG and ORD. Whether it would be seasonal I don't know, but 3-4x weekly seems like a good way to start off. A 757 is pushing it on the range a little bit from IND to AMS (3614nm) but it should do the trick, if not DL might be able to find a 767ER to operate on the route instead.

Delta is dropping ORD-CDG, so I don't know if it helps, but it seems like it could make a flight from IND more feasible.
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-900
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:21 pm

Some IND stuff going on

https://www.ibj.com/articles/65020-unit ... -francisco
Already announced a while ago..

Looks as if DL/UA/F9 upgauged a few of their flights today, in anticipation for Gen Con

Side note: According to the airport the top unserved markets are: BDL, SNA, PDX, SMF, SAT, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, LHR. So realistically IND is pretty capped out on domestic flights, outside of any G4 adds, the only reasonable additions I could see in the near future are AS PDX-IND, and BA LHR-IND (if DL doesn't act first). The other ones like ONT, SNA, e.t.c are stretches

My route addition, predictions for the next year:
G4 SJU-IND
G4 LAX-IND
G4 Central America/Carribean-IND
DL AMS-IND
DL SEA-IND
DL SLC-IND (Fully year round)
AS PDX-IND
AS SAN-IND (if WN doesn't go year round next year)
WN SAN-IND (year round)
WN STL or BNA-IND

Less likely announcements:
B6 BOS-IND
B6 JFK-IND
B6 FLL-IND
BA LHR-IND
WN AUS-IND
NK IND-DFW/DTW/FLL
WN DCA-IND (comes back from the dead)
WN PBI-IND

Hopefully didn't miss any..
 
crazytoaster
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:09 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:38 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Some IND stuff going on

https://www.ibj.com/articles/65020-unit ... -francisco
Already announced a while ago..

Looks as if DL/UA/F9 upgauged a few of their flights today, in anticipation for Gen Con

Side note: According to the airport the top unserved markets are: BDL, SNA, PDX, SMF, SAT, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, LHR. So realistically IND is pretty capped out on domestic flights, outside of any G4 adds, the only reasonable additions I could see in the near future are AS PDX-IND, and BA LHR-IND (if DL doesn't act first). The other ones like ONT, SNA, e.t.c are stretches

My route addition, predictions for the next year:
G4 SJU-IND
G4 LAX-IND
G4 Central America/Carribean-IND
DL AMS-IND
DL SEA-IND
DL SLC-IND (Fully year round)
AS PDX-IND
AS SAN-IND (if WN doesn't go year round next year)
WN SAN-IND (year round)
WN STL or BNA-IND

Less likely announcements:
B6 BOS-IND
B6 JFK-IND
B6 FLL-IND
BA LHR-IND
WN AUS-IND
NK IND-DFW/DTW/FLL
WN DCA-IND (comes back from the dead)
WN PBI-IND

Hopefully didn't miss any..


List seems to bold.

But I do believe DL extended SLC-IND to year-round this year. G4 SJU-IND Seems feasible with no other carrier or charter serving it. Works from CVG and they just added the base to IND. I agree someone will do SAN-IND year-round (it is silly not too, demand is stable throughout the whole year), hope it is AS with PDX-IND add on top of that. For IND-STL/BNA the O&D is just too small and WN added IND-MDW recently for connections and MDW has significantly more connection options than either STL/BNA.

I am pessimistic about IND-TATL but we shall see soon. Any announcement would probably come before end of the year for that.
IND homebase, soon to be DEN
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:52 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Some IND stuff going on

https://www.ibj.com/articles/65020-unit ... -francisco
Already announced a while ago..

Looks as if DL/UA/F9 upgauged a few of their flights today, in anticipation for Gen Con

Side note: According to the airport the top unserved markets are: BDL, SNA, PDX, SMF, SAT, SJU, PBI, SJC, ONT, LHR. So realistically IND is pretty capped out on domestic flights, outside of any G4 adds, the only reasonable additions I could see in the near future are AS PDX-IND, and BA LHR-IND (if DL doesn't act first). The other ones like ONT, SNA, e.t.c are stretches

My route addition, predictions for the next year:
G4 SJU-IND
G4 LAX-IND
G4 Central America/Carribean-IND
DL AMS-IND
DL SEA-IND
DL SLC-IND (Fully year round)
AS PDX-IND
AS SAN-IND (if WN doesn't go year round next year)
WN SAN-IND (year round)
WN STL or BNA-IND

Less likely announcements:
B6 BOS-IND
B6 JFK-IND
B6 FLL-IND
BA LHR-IND
WN AUS-IND
NK IND-DFW/DTW/FLL
WN DCA-IND (comes back from the dead)
WN PBI-IND

Hopefully didn't miss any..


I hope you are wrong about DL AMS-IND. I see the route as marginal even with incentives and stands the change of never being profitable. That also hurt London service because it would be difficult to justify service to two European cities consecutively. If AMS fails then it may become far more difficult to attract European service as a failed market rather than an untested market. I am sure that all European service from IND is considered leaky to ORD, the question is by how much. If the European route fails then I think IND getting another will take additional years even with incentives.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:11 am

crazytoaster wrote:
List seems to bold.

But I do believe DL extended SLC-IND to year-round this year. G4 SJU-IND Seems feasible with no other carrier or charter serving it. Works from CVG and they just added the base to IND. I agree someone will do SAN-IND year-round (it is silly not too, demand is stable throughout the whole year), hope it is AS with PDX-IND add on top of that. For IND-STL/BNA the O&D is just too small and WN added IND-MDW recently for connections and MDW has significantly more connection options than either STL/BNA.

I am pessimistic about IND-TATL but we shall see soon. Any announcement would probably come before end of the year for that.


It was meant to be bold

You are right about SLC-IND though, for some reason I thought it was only extended until March.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident in additional G4 routes by the end of the year, considering they said themselves that at least a few more routes were going to be announced from IND by the end of the year, and SJU seems to be one of the most likely adds considering they are running PIT/CVG/RDU-SJU, so I agree I don't see why IND wouldn't work. Hopefully they chose to expand internationally in 2018 from IND as well and add CUN, MBJ, and AUA.

I honestly think AS would be running that route(SAN-IND) if WN wouldn't have jumped in first, and I would personally rather have AS on that route over WN any day. Which is unfortunate, because now WN can't make it year-round yet because of the plane shortage. If AS jumped on this route, and PDX as well, that would really show that they are very interested in developing IND, which would bode well for IND if they planned any sort of focus city/hub expansion.

There isn't a real way to measure O&D on those routes, because most of those people who are coming from IND to STL/BNA are driving now, so the nonstop would definitely pull some of those passengers who are currently driving. You can even include me in that bunch, because I often have to drive to STL and a nonstop would mean I no longer have to make that 4+ hour drive, or connect through ORD to get to STL. Another example is that I am heading to Nashville for the eclipse this weekend, but since there is no nonstop I just chose to drive. I think there is more demand than you might think, especially if you add in connections.

TATL is an interesting case in that it is very difficult to tell whether an airport like IND is close to a TATL flight or not, and we really have no idea what criteria/numbers the airlines are looking at. So, we will have to wait and see, but I seem more optimistic than most. I don't mind waiting into 2018, but if it gets into 2019 and there isn't a TATL flight I would be concerned. But, I still think there is still plenty of time for new TATL flights to be announced this year though.
 
crazytoaster
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:09 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:34 am

Midwestindy wrote:
crazytoaster wrote:
List seems to bold.

But I do believe DL extended SLC-IND to year-round this year. G4 SJU-IND Seems feasible with no other carrier or charter serving it. Works from CVG and they just added the base to IND. I agree someone will do SAN-IND year-round (it is silly not too, demand is stable throughout the whole year), hope it is AS with PDX-IND add on top of that. For IND-STL/BNA the O&D is just too small and WN added IND-MDW recently for connections and MDW has significantly more connection options than either STL/BNA.

I am pessimistic about IND-TATL but we shall see soon. Any announcement would probably come before end of the year for that.


It was meant to be bold

You are right about SLC-IND though, for some reason I thought it was only extended until March.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident in additional G4 routes by the end of the year, considering they said themselves that at least a few more routes were going to be announced from IND by the end of the year, and SJU seems to be one of the most likely adds considering they are running PIT/CVG/RDU-SJU, so I agree I don't see why IND wouldn't work. Hopefully they chose to expand internationally in 2018 from IND as well and add CUN, MBJ, and AUA.

I honestly think AS would be running that route(SAN-IND) if WN wouldn't have jumped in first, and I would personally rather have AS on that route over WN any day. Which is unfortunate, because now WN can't make it year-round yet because of the plane shortage. If AS jumped on this route, and PDX as well, that would really show that they are very interested in developing IND, which would bode well for IND if they planned any sort of focus city/hub expansion.

There isn't a real way to measure O&D on those routes, because most of those people who are coming from IND to STL/BNA are driving now, so the nonstop would definitely pull some of those passengers who are currently driving. You can even include me in that bunch, because I often have to drive to STL and a nonstop would mean I no longer have to make that 4+ hour drive, or connect through ORD to get to STL. Another example is that I am heading to Nashville for the eclipse this weekend, but since there is no nonstop I just chose to drive. I think there is more demand than you might think, especially if you add in connections.

TATL is an interesting case in that it is very difficult to tell whether an airport like IND is close to a TATL flight or not, and we really have no idea what criteria/numbers the airlines are looking at. So, we will have to wait and see, but I seem more optimistic than most. I don't mind waiting into 2018, but if it gets into 2019 and there isn't a TATL flight I would be concerned. But, I still think there is still plenty of time for new TATL flights to be announced this year though.


All great points. Totally agree with on AS/VX. They have SEA/SFO - IND now. Would be great to see SAN and PDX as well. Maybe AS will build their mythical midcon hub here? Haha, jk but would be awesome.

For STL and to a lesser extent BNA does it make sense to fly there as a business/leisure person? An easy 4 hour drive to STL vs a 1 hour flight plus getting to and from the airport makes the time savings moot. It's a tough sell except for the richest businesses. Would you really pay $200 rt for a flight to either on your own dime when you could drive thete in nearly the same amount of time and chance of the plane being delayed?

I know Chicago is similar distance away but it also has significantly more wealthy business travelers. On top of that Chicago has a decent mass transportation system reducing the need for a car overall. It is actually a hindrance and expensive to have a car in downtown. STL and BNA do not have any of those issues/advantages.

I guess further out in the futuere STL in particular could become even a larger connecting hub for WN as MDW becomes more congested. Then we could see IND-STL. But I'd rather see IND become a larger P2P operation itself.
IND homebase, soon to be DEN
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:26 am

atypical wrote:
I hope you are wrong about DL AMS-IND. I see the route as marginal even with incentives and stands the change of never being profitable. That also hurt London service because it would be difficult to justify service to two European cities consecutively. If AMS fails then it may become far more difficult to attract European service as a failed market rather than an untested market. I am sure that all European service from IND is considered leaky to ORD, the question is by how much. If the European route fails then I think IND getting another will take additional years even with incentives.


Normally I would say you are right about what would happen if IND-AMS fails but all you have to do is look at BDL to see how it works. They had AMS service on a 757 and the loads were terrible. The route was an epic failure. If you can't sell 60% of the seats on a 757 you have no business having the route. Right? Apparently not. Now BDL has 2 or 3 TATL flights. Just goes to show that sometimes the industry makes absolutely no sense.

I think it was 4 years ago IND had to bribe someone to fly IND-SFO. Today that route is 3x daily.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:30 am

Midwestindy wrote:
My route addition, predictions for the next year:
G4 SJU-IND
G4 LAX-IND
G4 Central America/Carribean-IND
DL AMS-IND
DL SEA-IND
DL SLC-IND (Fully year round)
AS PDX-IND
AS SAN-IND (if WN doesn't go year round next year)
WN SAN-IND (year round)
WN STL or BNA-IND

Less likely announcements:
B6 BOS-IND
B6 JFK-IND
B6 FLL-IND
BA LHR-IND
WN AUS-IND
NK IND-DFW/DTW/FLL
WN DCA-IND (comes back from the dead)
WN PBI-IND

Hopefully didn't miss any..


Are these routes you predict to be announced this year and next with them all flying next year?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Jshank83
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:39 am

I think the IND-STL/BNA routes only have a chance because of the connection opportunities. If it was straight O&D they wouldn't happen. You could run planes IND-STL-SAN/OAK/PDX or IND-BNA-CLT/RDU/Florida and probably make them work.

I am not really all the keen on a Midwest Airport-AMS route. You fly past London and Paris so that seems a little silly to me to have to then backtrack if you want to go to those two. I guess if you wanted to go to those you would just connect in NY/DTW/IAD/PHL though. That might then hurt the AMS route.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:09 am

Indy wrote:
atypical wrote:
I hope you are wrong about DL AMS-IND. I see the route as marginal even with incentives and stands the change of never being profitable. That also hurt London service because it would be difficult to justify service to two European cities consecutively. If AMS fails then it may become far more difficult to attract European service as a failed market rather than an untested market. I am sure that all European service from IND is considered leaky to ORD, the question is by how much. If the European route fails then I think IND getting another will take additional years even with incentives.


Normally I would say you are right about what would happen if IND-AMS fails but all you have to do is look at BDL to see how it works. They had AMS service on a 757 and the loads were terrible. The route was an epic failure. If you can't sell 60% of the seats on a 757 you have no business having the route. Right? Apparently not. Now BDL has 2 or 3 TATL flights. Just goes to show that sometimes the industry makes absolutely no sense.

I think it was 4 years ago IND had to bribe someone to fly IND-SFO. Today that route is 3x daily.

I'm not so worried about subsequent TATL opportunities from IND so much as the fact that a hypothetical IND-AMS route would strongly deter any other TATL service. The IND-AMS market is very small, even taking demand stimulation into account. Compared to a nonstop link to LHR, far and away IND's most frequented European destination, service to AMS isn't a whole lot of use to the IND market, save for perhaps a handful of one-stop connection opportunities.
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:42 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I'm not so worried about subsequent TATL opportunities from IND so much as the fact that a hypothetical IND-AMS route would strongly deter any other TATL service. The IND-AMS market is very small, even taking demand stimulation into account. Compared to a nonstop link to LHR, far and away IND's most frequented European destination, service to AMS isn't a whole lot of use to the IND market, save for perhaps a handful of one-stop connection opportunities.


The whole point to IND-AMS is to eliminate the US side connection. IND-AMS-EU is much better than IND-Some US Hub-EU. For me it would eliminate the connection completely as I'd take the train from AMS to my final destination. I'd do that instead of IND-Some US Hub-FRA/DUS/CGN + train.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
uconn99
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:03 am

Indy wrote:
atypical wrote:
I hope you are wrong about DL AMS-IND. I see the route as marginal even with incentives and stands the change of never being profitable. That also hurt London service because it would be difficult to justify service to two European cities consecutively. If AMS fails then it may become far more difficult to attract European service as a failed market rather than an untested market. I am sure that all European service from IND is considered leaky to ORD, the question is by how much. If the European route fails then I think IND getting another will take additional years even with incentives.


Normally I would say you are right about what would happen if IND-AMS fails but all you have to do is look at BDL to see how it works. They had AMS service on a 757 and the loads were terrible. The route was an epic failure. If you can't sell 60% of the seats on a 757 you have no business having the route. Right? Apparently not. Now BDL has 2 or 3 TATL flights. Just goes to show that sometimes the industry makes absolutely no sense.

I think it was 4 years ago IND had to bribe someone to fly IND-SFO. Today that route is 3x daily.


Loads were not that bad on BDL-AMS route, it was more the timing of the route. It was launched right as the recession was hitting and fuel was at some of the highest prices on record. I can pull some figures when I have time to dig into them but summer loads were typically in the 70/80's. Right now all indications after a slow start (fall 2016) BDL-DUB is performing very well with loads in the 80/90's. I was on 2 of the flights myself a few week ago and business class was 11/12 BDL-DUB and 12/12 DUB-BDL so it seems the front of the cabin is also doing well. Obviously a small sample size but looking at expert flyer quite a bit also shows full J class on most flights.

I have no doubt IND can support a flight to Europe, it just needs to be the correct airline and airport for it to take off and do well. IMO DUB is a much more valuable destination for medium sized east coast/midwest cities. Pre-clearance is a bonus and DUB is a great connecting airport and you never really overfly your connection city unlike AMS where you end up back tracking to many European cities.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:02 am

Indy wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I'm not so worried about subsequent TATL opportunities from IND so much as the fact that a hypothetical IND-AMS route would strongly deter any other TATL service. The IND-AMS market is very small, even taking demand stimulation into account. Compared to a nonstop link to LHR, far and away IND's most frequented European destination, service to AMS isn't a whole lot of use to the IND market, save for perhaps a handful of one-stop connection opportunities.


The whole point to IND-AMS is to eliminate the US side connection. IND-AMS-EU is much better than IND-Some US Hub-EU. For me it would eliminate the connection completely as I'd take the train from AMS to my final destination. I'd do that instead of IND-Some US Hub-FRA/DUS/CGN + train.

Which is a debatable value proposition where at best one-stop traffic is also split among US/Canada hubs. I still think the best set-up for success for IND TATL is landing a nonstop to LHR.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:13 am

atypical wrote:

I hope you are wrong about DL AMS-IND. I see the route as marginal even with incentives and stands the change of never being profitable. That also hurt London service because it would be difficult to justify service to two European cities consecutively. If AMS fails then it may become far more difficult to attract European service as a failed market rather than an untested market. I am sure that all European service from IND is considered leaky to ORD, the question is by how much. If the European route fails then I think IND getting another will take additional years even with incentives.


Even though I'd rather see IND-CDG, IND-AMS/LHR are the ones being discussed and I don't know why. (The only reason I can think of is Skyteam(KL/DL) is trying to expand its network out of AMS.) I don't think being leaky to ORD is such a bad thing, considering it means there is a higher number of pax going from IND to Europe than stats might otherwise show. You are right though, if a AMS-IND were to fail that would be disastrous for IND, but I don't think that will happen especially since Roche and Eli Lilly are big customers of Deltas and there is so much cargo that goes from IND to Europe that would help the flight a lot. Plus DL's 757s/767s are a great fit for a market pair like the one mentioned, and the DL FF base in IND is strong.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:30 am

Indy wrote:

Are these routes you predict to be announced this year and next with them all flying next year?


I expect most of them to be either announced in the next year or flying in the next year.

Jshank83 wrote:
I think the IND-STL/BNA routes only have a chance because of the connection opportunities. If it was straight O&D they wouldn't happen. You could run planes IND-STL-SAN/OAK/PDX or IND-BNA-CLT/RDU/Florida and probably make them work.


Agreed, there isn't enough O&D even if you add in some of the people who are currently driving, but with connections it is possible.
 
fsafsx
Topic Author
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:59 pm

I want to see Indy to asia one day probably hainan is the most likely.
 
fsafsx
Topic Author
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:01 pm

I can also see jetblue adding mco, fll, jfk and bos. Delta will do an a319 to mco eventually and maybe even more point places on crj like hartford or even an embrar to sna.
 
Midwestindy
Posts: 717
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:40 pm

fsafsx wrote:
I want to see Indy to asia one day probably hainan is the most likely.


2022-2030 time frame

fsafsx wrote:
I can also see jetblue adding mco, fll, jfk and bos. Delta will do an a319 to mco eventually and maybe even more point places on crj like hartford or even an embrar to sna.


DL a319 would be summer only, but who would run an embraer to SNA. But yeah B6 will probably add IND in the next 3 years.
 
Indy
Posts: 4164
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:16 pm

uconn99 wrote:
Loads were not that bad on BDL-AMS route, it was more the timing of the route. It was launched right as the recession was hitting and fuel was at some of the highest prices on record. I can pull some figures when I have time to dig into them but summer loads were typically in the 70/80's. Right now all indications after a slow start (fall 2016) BDL-DUB is performing very well with loads in the 80/90's. I was on 2 of the flights myself a few week ago and business class was 11/12 BDL-DUB and 12/12 DUB-BDL so it seems the front of the cabin is also doing well. Obviously a small sample size but looking at expert flyer quite a bit also shows full J class on most flights.

I have no doubt IND can support a flight to Europe, it just needs to be the correct airline and airport for it to take off and do well. IMO DUB is a much more valuable destination for medium sized east coast/midwest cities. Pre-clearance is a bonus and DUB is a great connecting airport and you never really overfly your connection city unlike AMS where you end up back tracking to many European cities.


You might want to check the loads. Plus summer should be your absolute best time. You should be able to fill a 757. Look around outside of the summer. The loads were horrible. An airline isn't to keep a TATL flight to a market like BDL or any other midsize market going if it can't fill a plane in the summer because after that the loads are going to tank and the route is going to be a money loser. You need those full summer flights to carry the route through the lean times.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos