Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"Rodriguez expects more "a few more" new routes to be announced at the beginning of next year."
:stirthepot:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... dy-airport

"Rodriguez’s data comes from the most recent MIT Airport Connectivity Quality Index, which places the Indianapolis International Airport fifth in the nation for best connected among airports in its class, and predicts that with recent and future service additions, the Indy airport will maintain or enhance that strong position."


The one guy I'd love to have a cup of coffee with. Would love some time to pick his brain. He has done such an exceptional job since taking over at IND. G4 stated they'd be back by the end of the year for more route announcements. I wonder if this is what he's talking about or something else.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:23 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
"Rodriguez expects more "a few more" new routes to be announced at the beginning of next year."
:stirthepot:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... dy-airport

"Rodriguez’s data comes from the most recent MIT Airport Connectivity Quality Index, which places the Indianapolis International Airport fifth in the nation for best connected among airports in its class, and predicts that with recent and future service additions, the Indy airport will maintain or enhance that strong position."


The one guy I'd love to have a cup of coffee with. Would love some time to pick his brain. He has done such an exceptional job since taking over at IND. G4 stated they'd be back by the end of the year for more route announcements. I wonder if this is what he's talking about or something else.



Probably refering to SY or NK, G4's announcements were supposed to be this year.

Rodriguez specifically referred to bringing in airlines" which are categorized as ultra-low cost carriers"
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
SmithAir747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:35 pm

In terms of future TATL service from IND, what routes and airlines do you predict--Iceland, UK, Ireland, or continental European routes? LCCs or standard carriers?

For example, I wonder if London is still a possibility--either LHR with BA/DL/AA (using 787 or 767) or LGW with DY (787)? How about additional Paris service (besides DL), or new routes including AMS or KEF? How about DUB on a LCC?

Predict away!

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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:18 pm

SmithAir747 wrote:
In terms of future TATL service from IND, what routes and airlines do you predict--Iceland, UK, Ireland, or continental European routes? LCCs or standard carriers?

For example, I wonder if London is still a possibility--either LHR with BA/DL/AA (using 787 or 767) or LGW with DY (787)? How about additional Paris service (besides DL), or new routes including AMS or KEF? How about DUB on a LCC?

Predict away!

SmithAir747


We will see what happens, I don't see LHR/LGW happening on BA/AA, but if the CDG flight does well DL might try IND-LHR in the future similar to PDX. The Best shot at LON is obviously DY/D8 though...

Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if WW hops in the market....

The airport seems pretty content with the IND-CDG flight though, so I expect to see more domestic growth before any additional TATL announcements

On another note, I'd like to see an airline try IND-SAT
The market has grown significantly since last year, similar to the growth of the IND-AUS market which grew 20 PDEW in Q1...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:46 am

After re-analyzing NK and putting the puzzle together if you will, IND is realistically in the top 5 for NK. I mean, really the only markets that are ahead of IND are BNA, AUS and RDU but even that can be contemplated. IND will get the obvious adds to TPA, MCO, RSW and FLL as did all of the other northern cities, probably DFW, IAH, ATL, BWI and LAS to start too. I can see NK being up to 12 destinations in the future, 12 destinations, some more than once daily so about 16 departures.
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ADrum23
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:31 am

Midwestindy wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
In terms of future TATL service from IND, what routes and airlines do you predict--Iceland, UK, Ireland, or continental European routes? LCCs or standard carriers?

For example, I wonder if London is still a possibility--either LHR with BA/DL/AA (using 787 or 767) or LGW with DY (787)? How about additional Paris service (besides DL), or new routes including AMS or KEF? How about DUB on a LCC?

Predict away!

SmithAir747


We will see what happens, I don't see LHR/LGW happening on BA/AA, but if the CDG flight does well DL might try IND-LHR in the future similar to PDX. The Best shot at LON is obviously DY/D8 though...

Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if WW hops in the market....

The airport seems pretty content with the IND-CDG flight though, so I expect to see more domestic growth before any additional TATL announcements


IMO, I think DY would start CVG-LGW before IND, as Cincinnati has yearned for a London flight for a while and it is already a proven TATL market, while IND is just starting (not to say I don't think IND-CDG won't do well, but they should give it a while to let it grow and mature before declaring it a proven market).

I agree with Indianapolis being content with IND-CDG for now, they should be. As should Nashville with BNA-LHR. Both should satisfy the needs of TATL travels in their respective cities for the foreseeable future. Granted, I expect WW will come into both IND and BNA soon (along with airports such as AUS, MSY, RDU and maybe even ATL and CLT), but I doubt that takes too much away from the "full-service" flights. I could also see CON at BNA soon, but that would only be seasonal so that wouldn't affect the BA flight too much either.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:33 am

flymco753 wrote:
After re-analyzing NK and putting the puzzle together if you will, IND is realistically in the top 5 for NK. I mean, really the only markets that are ahead of IND are BNA, AUS and RDU but even that can be contemplated. IND will get the obvious adds to TPA, MCO, RSW and FLL as did all of the other northern cities, probably DFW, IAH, ATL, BWI and LAS to start too. I can see NK being up to 12 destinations in the future, 12 destinations, some more than once daily so about 16 departures.


IMO, the next logical adds for NK are (in no particular order) STL, IND, BNA and RDU. All of them are among the biggest medium-sized airports in the country and already have all of NK's competitors.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:08 am

As far as TATL goes, we have to let the first one stabilize before we can begin the domino effect. In the meantime, we can expand our domestic and Canada/Mexico market.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:01 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
In terms of future TATL service from IND, what routes and airlines do you predict--Iceland, UK, Ireland, or continental European routes? LCCs or standard carriers?

For example, I wonder if London is still a possibility--either LHR with BA/DL/AA (using 787 or 767) or LGW with DY (787)? How about additional Paris service (besides DL), or new routes including AMS or KEF? How about DUB on a LCC?

Predict away!

SmithAir747


We will see what happens, I don't see LHR/LGW happening on BA/AA, but if the CDG flight does well DL might try IND-LHR in the future similar to PDX. The Best shot at LON is obviously DY/D8 though...

Other than that I wouldn't be surprised if WW hops in the market....

The airport seems pretty content with the IND-CDG flight though, so I expect to see more domestic growth before any additional TATL announcements


IMO, I think DY would start CVG-LGW before IND, as Cincinnati has yearned for a London flight for a while and it is already a proven TATL market, while IND is just starting (not to say I don't think IND-CDG won't do well, but they should give it a while to let it grow and mature before declaring it a proven market).

I agree with Indianapolis being content with IND-CDG for now, they should be. As should Nashville with BNA-LHR. Both should satisfy the needs of TATL travels in their respective cities for the foreseeable future. Granted, I expect WW will come into both IND and BNA soon (along with airports such as AUS, MSY, RDU and maybe even ATL and CLT), but I doubt that takes too much away from the "full-service" flights. I could also see CON at BNA soon, but that would only be seasonal so that wouldn't affect the BA flight too much either.


Yeah, I don't know the order in which DY/D8 will add cities, I just suspected DY/D8 would be the most likely possibility for a flight to LHR/LGW, not to say IND was next in line to get that flight..
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:03 am

zackary747 wrote:
As far as TATL goes, we have to let the first one stabilize before we can begin the domino effect. In the meantime, we can expand our domestic and Canada/Mexico market.


Oddly enough, MEX service was brought up by the Exec Director a while back, I wonder what happened to that? Maybe it is one of those routes that will be announced next year...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
As far as TATL goes, we have to let the first one stabilize before we can begin the domino effect. In the meantime, we can expand our domestic and Canada/Mexico market.


Oddly enough, MEX service was brought up by the Exec Director a while back, I wonder what happened to that? Maybe it is one of those routes that will be announced next year...


I don't think it's out of the equation. I just think all the details are secret right now. Aeromexico Connect and that SkyClub can help.
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Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:00 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know the order in which DY/D8 will add cities, I just suspected DY/D8 would be the most likely possibility for a flight to LHR/LGW, not to say IND was next in line to get that flight..


Now that CVG has WW, it seems less likely they will get DY/D8. Not sure they can support a 3rd TATL route.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Looks like Spirit isn't adding crap today anywhere. I seriously wonder when they plan to expand.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:16 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Yeah, I don't know the order in which DY/D8 will add cities, I just suspected DY/D8 would be the most likely possibility for a flight to LHR/LGW, not to say IND was next in line to get that flight..


Now that CVG has WW, it seems less likely they will get DY/D8. Not sure they can support a 3rd TATL route.


I'm sure both IND and CVG could support it in the long term.

But, once IND-CDG is running under its own dime (or just running in general) I think airlines will look higher at IND. We're clearly the better city (conventions, city life, quicker growth and development), better airport and city infrastructure, and our airport has much higher passenger numbers. I'm sure CVG will start to catch up, but I think IND will always be one step ahead. F9 and G4 going huge out of CVG won't be good enough for them. Verity brings the best growth, that's why IND is ahead.
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Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:21 pm

zackary747 wrote:
I'm sure both IND and CVG could support it in the long term.

But, once IND-CDG is running under its own dime (or just running in general) I think airlines will look higher at IND. We're clearly the better city (conventions, city life, quicker growth and development), better airport and city infrastructure, and our airport has much higher passenger numbers. I'm sure CVG will start to catch up, but I think IND will always be one step ahead. F9 and G4 going huge out of CVG won't be good enough for them. Verity brings the best growth, that's why IND is ahead.


Remember IND-CDG incentives aren't like normal. IND is paying a bonus for performance instead of subsidizing poor sales. If the sales do well between now and August of 2018, you could see a 2nd carrier make a move. So far early sales seem to be strong despite the first flight being almost 8 months away.
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:24 pm

Indy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
I'm sure both IND and CVG could support it in the long term.

But, once IND-CDG is running under its own dime (or just running in general) I think airlines will look higher at IND. We're clearly the better city (conventions, city life, quicker growth and development), better airport and city infrastructure, and our airport has much higher passenger numbers. I'm sure CVG will start to catch up, but I think IND will always be one step ahead. F9 and G4 going huge out of CVG won't be good enough for them. Verity brings the best growth, that's why IND is ahead.


Remember IND-CDG incentives aren't like normal. IND is paying a bonus for performance instead of subsidizing poor sales. If the sales do well between now and August of 2018, you could see a 2nd carrier make a move. So far early sales seem to be strong despite the first flight being almost 8 months away.


You make a GREAT point about the incentives. Where did you find information about the strong sales?

Perhaps we could get another announcement sooner than expected.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:01 pm

T100 data for July and April is out

G4 IND-AUS 90%
G4 VPS-IND 89.96%
AS SEA-IND 92.11%
WN DCA-IND 80.40%
WN BOS-IND 86.69%
F9 LAS-IND 87.06%
DL SLC-IND 88.88%
WN SAN-IND 89.51%
WN MSY-IND 94.83%
WN EWR-IND 76.56%
UA SFO-IND 77.48%
DL RDU-IND 78.99%
DL MCO-IND 88.68%
DL RSW-IND 88.95%
WN MDW-IND 64.39%
WN BWI-IND 72.26%

April
PUJ-IND 72.6%
YYZ-IND 75.97%
CUN-IND 81.23%
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:42 pm

DL has extended mainline service on SLC-IND until Sep 10th (furthest out their schedule goes) with an A320. Also, mainline service will begin March 5th instead of late May like last year.

IND-CDG will remain daily through Sep 10th

IND-MIA/RSW will run Sat only through Sep 8th we will see if it continues to run after that Saturday

Here are the frequencies DL will be at on Sep 10th
ATL 10x
BOS 3x
DTW 7x
LAX 1x
MSP 5x
CDG 1x
SLC 1x
JFK 2x
LGA 5x
MCO 1x
RDU 2x
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Do any of y'all thing BMG could eventually get air service? RJ flying to DTW and ATL via DL and UA to ORD and EWR? Maybe even AA to CLT to start?
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:15 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Do any of y'all thing BMG could eventually get air service? RJ flying to DTW and ATL via DL and UA to ORD and EWR? Maybe even AA to CLT to start?


I don't see it happening, it is really close to IND and once I-69 is finished the drive will be even shorter. I haven't heard any rumblings about it either, so I guess most people are fine with driving up to IND.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
DL has extended mainline service on SLC-IND until Sep 10th (furthest out their schedule goes) with an A320. Also, mainline service will begin March 5th instead of late May like last year.

IND-CDG will remain daily through Sep 10th

IND-MIA/RSW will run Sat only through Sep 8th we will see if it continues to run after that Saturday

Here are the frequencies DL will be at on Sep 10th
ATL 10x
BOS 3x
DTW 7x
LAX 1x
MSP 5x
CDG 1x
SLC 1x
JFK 2x
LGA 5x
MCO 1x
RDU 2x


It surprises me that IND doesn’t have more west coast service, both on DL and in general. The gap between IND and peer markets like BNA and STL is pretty wide even considering WN connections at BNA and STL. Being (just) out of E75 range probably doesn’t help.
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Continental767
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:19 pm

Should we be worried about the inaugural flight bookings? I count only 33 seats booked on the first flight as of 10/14.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:23 am

Cubsrule wrote:
It surprises me that IND doesn’t have more west coast service, both on DL and in general. The gap between IND and peer markets like BNA and STL is pretty wide even considering WN connections at BNA and STL. Being (just) out of E75 range probably doesn’t help.


Taking out what WN offers IND/BNA are basically on an equal playing field, I think STL is a little bit ahead of both due to the fact it is in RJ range
Take Monday for example
SEA
2x BNA
1x IND

SFO (bay area)
3x BNA (+1)
3x IND

PHX
2x IND (+1)
0x BNA (+2)

SLC
1x BNA
1x IND

DEN
2x BNA (+5)
3x IND (+4)

LAS
1x BNA (+3)
1x IND (+3)

SAN
0x BNA (+1)
0x IND

LAX
4x BNA (+3)
2x IND (+1)
Compare IND's west coast service to that of CLE/PIT/CMH and other peer markets outside of RJ range and IND has pretty good west coast service imo
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:37 am

Continental767 wrote:
Should we be worried about the inaugural flight bookings? I count only 33 seats booked on the first flight as of 10/14.


I think it is too early to tell, we won't know what bookings are looking like until at least 1-2 weeks in advance
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:55 am

Continental767 wrote:
Should we be worried about the inaugural flight bookings? I count only 33 seats booked on the first flight as of 10/14.


You can't go by the seat map. There are actually quite a few more seats sold. Take a look at CVG-CDG for the same day. Look at the front of the plane. Note that A5 and A6 are blocked off on all of the 767 flights to CDG from IND and CVG. So we have to assume those haven't been booked yet. It looks like IND-CDG has sold twice as many seats up front as CVG-CDG. The route is going to be fine. It is still 221 days until departure. I am confident the May 24th flight will be sold out or nearly sold out weeks before the flight.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:54 am

I did a rough estimate of Q2 PDEW based on the DB1BMarket data
I included some of the key markets for IND, I also removed all the one-way fares under $50(unless G4/F9 operated the route, if so adjusted accordingly) so I tried to avoid keeping non-rev pax in the numbers. Obviously numbers won't be exact considering it is a random sample...
**Indicates n/s service started on a route during Q2, hence the spike in PDEW


**IND-SAN--187 PDEW (If WN won't go year-round someone else should)
**IND-SEA--182 PDEW
IND-MCI--130 PDEW
**IND-AUS--125 PDEW (Not a surprise WN decided to hop on this route)
IND-RDU--121 PDEW
IND-PDX--94 PDEW
IND-MSY--93 PDEW
IND-JAX--91 PDEW
IND-SLC--89 PDEW
IND-SAT--82 PDEW
IND-SNA--73 PDEW
IND-SMF-68 PDEW
IND-BDL--59 PDEW
IND-SJC--59 PDEW
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:41 am

Midwestindy wrote:
I did a rough estimate of Q2 PDEW based on the DB1BMarket data
I included some of the key markets for IND, I also removed all the one-way fares under $50(unless G4/F9 operated the route, if so adjusted accordingly) so I tried to avoid keeping non-rev pax in the numbers. Obviously numbers won't be exact considering it is a random sample...
**Indicates n/s service started on a route during Q2, hence the spike in PDEW


**IND-SAN--187 PDEW (If WN won't go year-round someone else should)
**IND-SEA--182 PDEW
IND-MCI--130 PDEW
**IND-AUS--125 PDEW (Not a surprise WN decided to hop on this route)
IND-RDU--121 PDEW
IND-PDX--94 PDEW
IND-MSY--93 PDEW
IND-JAX--91 PDEW
IND-SLC--89 PDEW
IND-SAT--82 PDEW
IND-SNA--73 PDEW
IND-SMF-68 PDEW
IND-BDL--59 PDEW
IND-SJC--59 PDEW


Very interesting and positive stuff. Any PDEW data for IND-BNA?
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:20 pm

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/alle ... ost2448676

Don't know if everything on here is accurate, but if I am not mistaken IND-AZA came around 12 PM. I'm sure we'll hear something sooner than later either this month or early next month from G4.

Thanks to MidwestIndy for sending the link in PM.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:00 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I did a rough estimate of Q2 PDEW based on the DB1BMarket data
I included some of the key markets for IND, I also removed all the one-way fares under $50(unless G4/F9 operated the route, if so adjusted accordingly) so I tried to avoid keeping non-rev pax in the numbers. Obviously numbers won't be exact considering it is a random sample...
**Indicates n/s service started on a route during Q2, hence the spike in PDEW


**IND-SAN--187 PDEW (If WN won't go year-round someone else should)
**IND-SEA--182 PDEW
IND-MCI--130 PDEW
**IND-AUS--125 PDEW (Not a surprise WN decided to hop on this route)
IND-RDU--121 PDEW
IND-PDX--94 PDEW
IND-MSY--93 PDEW
IND-JAX--91 PDEW
IND-SLC--89 PDEW
IND-SAT--82 PDEW
IND-SNA--73 PDEW
IND-SMF-68 PDEW
IND-BDL--59 PDEW
IND-SJC--59 PDEW


Very interesting and positive stuff. Any PDEW data for IND-BNA?


7 PDEW, Average fare $301, DL controls 67% of the market. PDEW is understandably low considering there is no place you can connect, unless you backtract.
Other markets I left out
IND-BOS--318 PDEW, IND-PVD--30 PDEW, IND-MHT--22 PDEW
IND-DCA--412 PDEW, IND-BWI--174 PDEW, IND-IAD--86 PDEW
IND-PHX--280 PDEW
IND-CLT--148 PDEW
IND-DTW--63 PDEW
IND-SFB/MCO--750 PDEW (if this is true I would think there is enough room for DL to upguage or go 2x daily)
IND-CHS--37 PDEW
IND-ABQ--31 PDEW
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:50 pm

Thanks for taking the time to look up all these pdew's. interesting that Wn is dropping DCA. As of this Thursday AA is 6x with E175's 76-80 seats ea. So that's is 456-480 seats daily. Do you think we will see anybody else try and compete against AA? DL, AS?
Still waiting for AS to start SAN, and PDX tough it may be to long and thin for now.
There was some talk about SY joining the market. Would be welcomed and interesting, but I wouldn't hold my breath, not sure what kind of incentive they have to want IND
Looks like JAX, SAT, SNA, SMF, BDL, SJC are next logical additions in the continental U.S. Surprising how many are west coast cities given to relative proximity we are to the east coast.
To throw out an idea; What do you the the most likely non o&d markets would be if someone wanted to start using IND as a hub ?
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:11 pm

I know I have brought this up before but it appears that while Southwest drops 2 flights a day to National, it picks up a 3rd daily to Chicago Midway. I still haven't seen if there is another flight added to the schedule somewhere in there, such as an uptick to Kansas City, or Atlanta, but haven't seen anything noticeable. One thing I HAVE noticed though is the schedule to Newark keeps changing. Fares between the two (IND/EWR) are pretty damn good, I must say. Definitely miss them to LaGuardia, as you can tell a noticeable difference on the fares charged by American and Delta between the two. I could see an eventual add to San Antonio on Southwest.

Sun Country appears to be positioning themselves to start cherry picking routes as they seek expansion outside of their Minneapolis focus. I would not be surprised at all to see them come to Indianapolis, and I would not be surprised to see it be one of their first origin cities outside of Minneapolis, but you won't find anything unique. My four guesses would be Orlando, Tampa, Las Vegas, Ft. Myers, and you would see an immediate 737 response on any route on Delta.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:55 pm

IndEagle wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to look up all these pdew's. interesting that Wn is dropping DCA. As of this Thursday AA is 6x with E175's 76-80 seats ea. So that's is 456-480 seats daily. Do you think we will see anybody else try and compete against AA? DL, AS?
Still waiting for AS to start SAN, and PDX tough it may be to long and thin for now.
There was some talk about SY joining the market. Would be welcomed and interesting, but I wouldn't hold my breath, not sure what kind of incentive they have to want IND
Looks like JAX, SAT, SNA, SMF, BDL, SJC are next logical additions in the continental U.S. Surprising how many are west coast cities given to relative proximity we are to the east coast.
To throw out an idea; What do you the the most likely non o&d markets would be if someone wanted to start using IND as a hub ?


Well JAX is served by G4, so that is already checked off.
So, next I'd like to see SAT-WN, the other ones are pretty unlikely unless DL has a go at IND-BDL.
WN lost some slots at SNA, so they have to reduce flying there.
I would think OAK would be more likely than SMF for WN, but I may be wrong. And, SJC would most likely be served by AS/VX but now they served SFO-IND so I can't see that happening.

AA runs a decent amount of connections through DCA, so I would assume their 6x daily doesn't capture all of the O&D pax. DL ran it in the past, so I wouldn't count it out, although AS has shown no interest in running a route like that. I think part of the problem for WN is that their planes are too large.

I think there is enough room for AS to hop in the SAN-IND market (I think the e175 has the range to run SAN-IND but I may be wrong)

What do you mean by "non o&d markets" though?

stlgph wrote:
I could see an eventual add to San Antonio on Southwest.

Sun Country appears to be positioning themselves to start cherry picking routes as they seek expansion outside of their Minneapolis focus. My four guesses would be Orlando, Tampa, Las Vegas, Ft. Myers, and you would see an immediate 737 response on any route on Delta.


I can definately see WN or G4 trying SAT-IND in the next year....

Hopefully SY gives PBI-IND a shot, although I don't think DL would respond to any move by SY.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:00 pm

Delta would absolutely uptick service in alignment with anything Sun Country announces.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:09 pm

stlgph wrote:
Delta would absolutely uptick service in alignment with anything Sun Country announces.


Maybe to MSP, but you wouldn't see a "737 response on any route on Delta" especially on a DL route like IND-RSW
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:32 pm

Absolutely they would. Let's not kid ourselves.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:25 pm

stlgph wrote:
Absolutely they would. Let's not kid ourselves.


I doubt if SY started IND-RSW, that DL would go 737 daily when they only currently operate that route CRJ sat only.
MCO that might go 737 summer seasonal, but they would probably put a 717 before a 737 on that route.
Obviously, MSP would be upguaged but they already operate 737s on that route

Why would DL fight to defend p2p routes like IND-MCO/RSW?
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Absolutely they would. Let's not kid ourselves.


I doubt if SY started IND-RSW, that DL would go 737 daily when they only currently operate that route CRJ sat only.
MCO that might go 737 summer seasonal, but they would probably put a 717 before a 737 on that route.
Obviously, MSP would be upguaged but they already operate 737s on that route

Why would DL fight to defend p2p routes like IND-MCO/RSW?


Correct. Delta wouldn't upgage it. There wouldn't be the suitable demand. People fly WN, F9, SY, and G4 for the lower prices. DL can't compete under those circumstances due to them being a legacy airline brand. Simple airline economics.
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:48 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Why would DL fight to defend p2p routes like IND-MCO/RSW?
No point to defend them since IND isn't a hub. Though, looking at current data and doing a forecast, the next thing for DL is to extend MCO to 2x daily on the CR7 operated by Skywest or GoJet, therefore the -700 can be rotated at IND from MSP, DTW, LGA or BOS.

The first flight would remain the same, morning IND departure, night IND arrival. The later flight could be a CRJ-700 from DTW, the current flight arrives in IND at 5:04pm, that flight could than depart to MCO at 6PM, and RON in MCO, while the flight will turn around and come back in the morning and get into DTW in the morning after it's arrival at IND. An 8:10AM departure from MCO will get you into IND at roughly 11AM, than the plane would spend 45 minutes at IND before going back to DTW. The same could be done with MSP though too, I just used DTW as an example because Skywest and GoJet CRJ-700's live at DTW basically.
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stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:21 pm

Absolutely hilarious if you think Delta wouldn't respond to Florida service on Sun Country. Seriously.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:31 pm

stlgph wrote:
Absolutely hilarious if you think Delta wouldn't respond to Florida service on Sun Country. Seriously.

I am so confused, why would DL respond on Florida routes from IND? DL has barely changed its CVG-Florida, despite F9 adding service to MCO/RSW/MIA/FLL/TPA/FLL and G4 adding service to SFB/PGD/PIE/FLL/JAX/VPS. The only upgauge was a seasonal third daily on MCO and a 737 on FLL, they actually pulled back capacity on TPA/RSW. DL has much less influence and pricing power at IND compared to CVG, if they are not going to defend Florida routes from CVG, they certainly are not going to defend routes from PTP cities. Besides, in addition to G4 and F9 at IND, there is also WN. Seasonal upgauges would make sense, but I don't see daily mainline as a possibility (they don't even run year round mainline from RDU to Florida!).
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zackary747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:07 am

cvgComair wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Absolutely hilarious if you think Delta wouldn't respond to Florida service on Sun Country. Seriously.

I am so confused, why would DL respond on Florida routes from IND? DL has barely changed its CVG-Florida, despite F9 adding service to MCO/RSW/MIA/FLL/TPA/FLL and G4 adding service to SFB/PGD/PIE/FLL/JAX/VPS. The only upgauge was a seasonal third daily on MCO and a 737 on FLL, they actually pulled back capacity on TPA/RSW. DL has much less influence and pricing power at IND compared to CVG, if they are not going to defend Florida routes from CVG, they certainly are not going to defend routes from PTP cities. Besides, in addition to G4 and F9 at IND, there is also WN. Seasonal upgauges would make sense, but I don't see daily mainline as a possibility (they don't even run year round mainline from RDU to Florida!).


Exactly! Like I said, basic airline economics and history states that a legacy product can't compete with a ULCC by the means of upgrading to mainline. Especially in these Midwest markets.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:14 am

Midwestindy wrote:

I would think OAK would be more likely than SMF for WN, but I may be wrong.


Agree with you on this seeing OAK is more of a WN "hub".

Midwestindy wrote:
I think there is enough room for AS to hop in the SAN-IND market (I think the e175 has the range to run SAN-IND but I may be wrong)


I don't think it has the range, otherwise they would already be running it, imo.

STL is about as far east as they go. Maybe MKE gets a few (from seattle or portland) and is a tad more east than STL, but shorter distance.

STL-SFO, the longest of the STL e175 routes is 1,736.
IND-SAN is 1,783.

Not a huge difference but I know some of flights STL-SFO (one in the last week) that they were asking people to take a later flight. They were concerned about having too much weight and that they wouldn't have enough fuel to make it. So even 50 more miles is probably too far to schedule it.
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:57 am

Midwestindy wrote:
IndEagle wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to look up all these pdew's. interesting that Wn is dropping DCA. As of this Thursday AA is 6x with E175's 76-80 seats ea. So that's is 456-480 seats daily. Do you think we will see anybody else try and compete against AA? DL, AS?
Still waiting for AS to start SAN, and PDX tough it may be to long and thin for now.
There was some talk about SY joining the market. Would be welcomed and interesting, but I wouldn't hold my breath, not sure what kind of incentive they have to want IND
Looks like JAX, SAT, SNA, SMF, BDL, SJC are next logical additions in the continental U.S. Surprising how many are west coast cities given to relative proximity we are to the east coast.
To throw out an idea; What do you the the most likely non o&d markets would be if someone wanted to start using IND as a hub ?


Well JAX is served by G4, so that is already checked off.
So, next I'd like to see SAT-WN, the other ones are pretty unlikely unless DL has a go at IND-BDL.
WN lost some slots at SNA, so they have to reduce flying there.
I would think OAK would be more likely than SMF for WN, but I may be wrong. And, SJC would most likely be served by AS/VX but now they served SFO-IND so I can't see that happening.

AA runs a decent amount of connections through DCA, so I would assume their 6x daily doesn't capture all of the O&D pax. DL ran it in the past, so I wouldn't count it out, although AS has shown no interest in running a route like that. I think part of the problem for WN is that their planes are too large.

I think there is enough room for AS to hop in the SAN-IND market (I think the e175 has the range to run SAN-IND but I may be wrong)

What do you mean by "non o&d markets" though?

stlgph wrote:
I could see an eventual add to San Antonio on Southwest.

Sun Country appears to be positioning themselves to start cherry picking routes as they seek expansion outside of their Minneapolis focus. My four guesses would be Orlando, Tampa, Las Vegas, Ft. Myers, and you would see an immediate 737 response on any route on Delta.


I can definately see WN or G4 trying SAT-IND in the next year....

Hopefully SY gives PBI-IND a shot, although I don't think DL would respond to any move by SY.


In regard to adding JAX, I was thinking a new non LCC
and to what I meant by "non o&d market", those markets that don't have enough demand to warrant a route on their own, yet can be financially viable relying on connecting pax. My assumption is that this is the next logical step for growth at IND
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:25 am

Updating Revenue/per flight data from the past year ending Mar-2017
This time I will only Include key routes, this time I will divide by nmiles as well
Data is based on Median Price, not average price

AAY
FLL-IND--$35,942.04--$35.24 per mile
JAX-IND--$29,133.22--$42.41 per mile
LAS-IND--$38,772.67--$24.49 per mile
SFB-IND--$30,508.11--$37.80 per mile
PGD-IND--$33,228.72--$36.28 per mile
PIE-IND--$33,832.63--$40.27 per mile
MYR-IND--$25,019.61--$42.92 per mile
MSY-IND--$24,429.63--$34.55 per mile
SAV-IND--$21,738.62--$36.47 per mile

AA
CLT-IND--$199,278.66--$466.69 per mile
DFW-IND--$290,293.54--$381.46 per mile
LAX-IND--$165,753.32--$91.37 per mile
PHX-IND--$179,314.85--$120.5 per mile
ORD-IND--$145,197.68--$820.32 per mile
MIA-IND--$196,951.58--$193.01 per mile
JFK-IND--$126,476.25--$180.42 per mile
PHL-IND--$131,343.44--$223.37 per mile
DCA-IND--$135,164.71--$261.95 per mile

DL
ATL-IND--$211,407.45--$489.37 per mile
DTW-IND--$242,674.37--$1,050.54 per mile
LAX-IND--$263,273.38--$145.13 per mile
MSP-IND--$268,744.53--$382.28 per mile
SLC-IND--$201,777.32--$148.91 per mile
BOS-IND--$130,871.02--$159.99 per mile
LGA-IND--$183,878.51--$262.31 per mile
MCO-IND--$113,589.91--$137.02 per mile
RDU-IND--$44,659.19--$91.33 per mile
RSW-IND--$108,396.70--$114.71 per mile
MIA-IND--$124,681.41--$122.24 per mile

F9
DEN-IND--$50,782.48--$51.98 per mile
MCO-IND--$49,734.00--$59.99 per mile
RSW-IND--$64,872.10--$68.65 per mile

WN
ATL-IND--$64,872.10--$150.17 per mile
BWI-IND--$61,445.89--$119.08 per mile
BOS-IND--$61,538.25--$75.23 per mile
MDW-IND--$40,272.77--$227.53 per mile
DAL-IND--$96,937.54--$127.38 per mile
DEN-IND--$84,294.29--$86.28 per mile
FLL-IND--$87,028.56--$85.32 per mile
RSW-IND--$82,918.36--$87.74 per mile
HOU-IND--$94,300.23--$109.52 per mile
MCI-IND--$59,540.22--$132.02 per mile
LAS-IND--$125,030.67--$78.64 per mile
LAX-IND--$104,334.92--$57.52 per mile
LGA-IND--$49,120.04--$70.07 per mile
MCO-IND--$78,335.20--$94.49 per mile
PHX-IND--$123,948.62--$83.30 per mile
TPA-IND--$79,657.00--$94.83 per mile
DCA-IND--$48,441.21--$93.88 per mile
MSY-IND--$99,850.36--$141.23 per mile

UA
ORD-IND--$121,668.28--$687.39 per mile
DEN-IND--$220,389.77--$225.58 per mile
SFO-IND--$147,482.56--$75.90 per mile
IAH-IND--$200,117.13--$232.42 per mile
EWR-IND--$154,234.37--$220.02 per mile
IAD-IND--$121,064.83--$234.62 per mile

JFK numbers weren't working for some reason
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:47 am

Jshank83 wrote:

I don't think it has the range, otherwise they would already be running it, imo.



Yeah you are probably right on that one...

IndEagle wrote:
In regard to adding JAX, I was thinking a new non LCC
and to what I meant by "non o&d market", those markets that don't have enough demand to warrant a route on their own, yet can be financially viable relying on connecting pax. My assumption is that this is the next logical step for growth at IND


Thanks for clarifying

Good question too!
I can't really think of a lot of markets that fit into the category for IND, a IND-PDX flight would have to at least somewhat rely on connections in PDX.

Good thing is as WN adds more routes out of IND, there will be more and more incidental connections, so we could maybe see more routes as a result of that. You can already see this happening routes out of and into MDW, LGA(eliminated), MCI, BOS, and RSW where WN is/was connecting some pax in IND.
The follow up question I have is, who would be most likely to start sending connections through IND? (outside of WN of course)
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:09 am

cvgComair wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Absolutely hilarious if you think Delta wouldn't respond to Florida service on Sun Country. Seriously.

I am so confused, why would DL respond on Florida routes from IND? DL has barely changed its CVG-Florida, despite F9 adding service to MCO/RSW/MIA/FLL/TPA/FLL and G4 adding service to SFB/PGD/PIE/FLL/JAX/VPS. The only upgauge was a seasonal third daily on MCO and a 737 on FLL, they actually pulled back capacity on TPA/RSW. DL has much less influence and pricing power at IND compared to CVG, if they are not going to defend Florida routes from CVG, they certainly are not going to defend routes from PTP cities. Besides, in addition to G4 and F9 at IND, there is also WN. Seasonal upgauges would make sense, but I don't see daily mainline as a possibility (they don't even run year round mainline from RDU to Florida!).


Why wouldn't they?

Have you not looked into ANYTHING Delta and its management has done in the past regarding its dominance in heartland markets?

I'm going to go with .... no.

I swear, this entire thread is a shining example why this website has gone down in value.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:19 am

stlgph wrote:
Why wouldn't they?

Have you not looked into ANYTHING Delta and its management has done in the past regarding its dominance in heartland markets?

I'm going to go with .... no.

I swear, this entire thread is a shining example why this website has gone down in value.

Yeah I have looked at it a lot, they have gutted their PTP flying in the midwest. MEM is gone, CVG is effectively gone, the IND focus city is gone, the STL focus city attempt is gone, Song is gone, CMH has lost multiple DL PTP routes, and cities like TOL have been completely eliminated, the list goes on and on. DL used to be a dominant PTP carrier in the midwest, but that has since faded. Largely, LCC's and WN have taken over the PTP flying in the midwest, DL may be ahead of UA/AA in terms of PTP, but it is nothing like it used to be.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:05 am

cvgComair wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Why wouldn't they?

Have you not looked into ANYTHING Delta and its management has done in the past regarding its dominance in heartland markets?

I'm going to go with .... no.

I swear, this entire thread is a shining example why this website has gone down in value.

Yeah I have looked at it a lot, they have gutted their PTP flying in the midwest. MEM is gone, CVG is effectively gone, the IND focus city is gone, the STL focus city attempt is gone, Song is gone, CMH has lost multiple DL PTP routes, and cities like TOL have been completely eliminated, the list goes on and on. DL used to be a dominant PTP carrier in the midwest, but that has since faded. Largely, LCC's and WN have taken over the PTP flying in the midwest, DL may be ahead of UA/AA in terms of PTP, but it is nothing like it used to be.


Agreed, the DL of now is much different than the NW/DL of old.
Look at the list of p2p flying that DL has cut out of IND in recent years
NAS-ended 2015
TPA-ended 2015
CLE-ended 2014
MBJ-ended 2014
DCA-ended 2012
LAS-ended 2010

Look at what DL has cut out of CVG, I am not even going to take the time to list it all

If DL wanted to they could have had the midwest (specifically IND) market to themselves around 3-5 or so years ago, WN/AA/UA did not have the presences they have today in IND. But instead of expanding DL choped up tons of flying, especially the p2p flying, regardless of whether the routes were profitable. Other than the IND-CDG flight DL, has shown very little interest in defending the "heartland," much to the benefit of WN....
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
Indy
Posts: 4373
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
If DL wanted to they could have had the midwest (specifically IND) market to themselves around 3-5 or so years ago, WN/AA/UA did not have the presences they have today in IND. But instead of expanding DL choped up tons of flying, especially the p2p flying, regardless of whether the routes were profitable. Other than the IND-CDG flight DL, has shown very little interest in defending the "heartland," much to the benefit of WN....


Unfortunately it shows DL's lack of concern for what customers want and their priority of making ATL the biggest instead of being the best. I don't understand their obsession with making ATL the biggest.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
stl07
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Why wouldn't they?

Have you not looked into ANYTHING Delta and its management has done in the past regarding its dominance in heartland markets?

I'm going to go with .... no.

I swear, this entire thread is a shining example why this website has gone down in value.

Yeah I have looked at it a lot, they have gutted their PTP flying in the midwest. MEM is gone, CVG is effectively gone, the IND focus city is gone, the STL focus city attempt is gone, Song is gone, CMH has lost multiple DL PTP routes, and cities like TOL have been completely eliminated, the list goes on and on. DL used to be a dominant PTP carrier in the midwest, but that has since faded. Largely, LCC's and WN have taken over the PTP flying in the midwest, DL may be ahead of UA/AA in terms of PTP, but it is nothing like it used to be.


Agreed, the DL of now is much different than the NW/DL of old.
Look at the list of p2p flying that DL has cut out of IND in recent years
NAS-ended 2015
TPA-ended 2015
CLE-ended 2014
MBJ-ended 2014
DCA-ended 2012
LAS-ended 2010

Look at what DL has cut out of CVG, I am not even going to take the time to list it all

If DL wanted to they could have had the midwest (specifically IND) market to themselves around 3-5 or so years ago, WN/AA/UA did not have the presences they have today in IND. But instead of expanding DL choped up tons of flying, especially the p2p flying, regardless of whether the routes were profitable. Other than the IND-CDG flight DL, has shown very little interest in defending the "heartland," much to the benefit of WN....

Oddly, they did just add STL-MCO
I will fly WN when they have the ability to give me a seat: something even NK can do.

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