Sabena 690
Topic Author
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DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:23 pm

Hey,

DAT starts flying to Africa in coöperation with British Midland Airlines.

They just announced the news.

When I have more information, I will post it as soon as I can.

Best regards,
Frederic
 
aussie_
Posts: 1600
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:00 pm

most interesting - feed from the UK on BD...

I suppose it's WAAAY to early to start talking about Star membership, let alone competition problems with flights to UK, germany, Scandinavia etc etc
 
flying lsd
Posts: 284
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:35 pm

Is it simple wet-lease of a332
or dry-lease
or code-sharing with flight originated from UK ( LHR or Manchester to Africa with a stop at Bru?
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:47 pm

I think that it is simple a wet-leass.
And the pilots here in Belgium are agree the it's cheeper and quicker.
Regards
Patrice
 
Sabena 690
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:54 pm

BMI gives the plane and pilots to DAT.

They both will sell tickets I guess.

That is the most safest for DAT.

I thougt I heard that the f/a will be from Belgium here.

Plane will be the A330-200 (I can be wrong, but isn't that the only long-haul plane they have, the A332?)

Best regards,
Frederic
 
Ndebele
Posts: 2847
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:04 pm

They lease a bmi aircraft, operated by bmi crews. Two stupid questions:
1) Where are the ex-Sabena 332s now - why not taking these?
2) What about experienced ex-Sabena pilots and cabin crews - I'm sure they would love to fly for DAT, for even less salary than bmi staff?
 
lumumba
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:13 pm

If the pilot's say that they understand there desision they must by a raison?
I think BMI is ready or ,to take a part of the risks or lease under there cost to loose less money after 11 SEP.
Regards.
Patrice

 
Sabena 690
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:19 pm

Hey Ndebele,

Very good question: why not Sabena Airbus A332 a/c and why not SN-staff.

Well:
I must say that I also find that stupid: so many pilots and f/a without a job, and now they are acquiring BMI staff!! That makes also me angry, but I can understand that. When there are troubles on those new Africa routes, DAT will lose lots of money, and now that BMI flyes for DAT, DAT has less responsability, and when it doesn't luck, DAT won't lose money on it. You understand? Sorry for the difficult explanation, but my English is not good enought to make clear wath I want to say.

By the way: someone said me that all the A330's of Sabena left Brussels, and they are now in Bordeaux. (Ask Cricri on a.net chat).

Best regards,
Frederic
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:26 pm

Salut Frederic.
That is also what i think .
But i also think the British pilots will suffer in Africa?
You need experince there what they haven't.
But let's wish there good luck to all and to DAT.
Regards
Patrice
 
Sabena 690
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:44 pm

Hey Lumumba,

That is also what I think. Sabena had an enormous reputation for it's pilots and the exploration of new (African) routes, I hope that they will fly to Africa too, all was it just on half-time (to don't loose their licences).

Best regards,
Frederic
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:07 pm

Hi guys

To avoid mistakes and false rumours:

x DAT has until now not officially anounced that they will wetlease a 330 from BMi. They are stil negotiating this. A pressconference is scheduled for friday or monday next week.

x The only thing that happened today was a pressconference organised by the Belgian Cockpit Association (BeCA). The BeCA asks DAT to fly to Africa with Belgian crews only. More than 200 ex Sabena pilots are qualified to fly A 330 at this moment. So there is heavy protest from BeCA against the 'possible' BMi operation.

x At this very moment there is a demonstration going on from the BeCa at the DAT building in Melsbroek. All qualified pilots give the DAT management staff their cv

x DAT says that organising a Longhaul Africa operation on their own is too expensive (AOC costs, hire personell...). Therefore they only want to do it with wetlease. Their new boss, Mr Kuypers (ex CEO from DHL's airline EAT) has positive experience with wetleases.

x If BMi is awarded the contract, they will never sell tickets on these flights. It's miles away from their core business.

x This operation has nothing to do with Star Alliance


Regards

Pressclub (who was present at the pressconference from BeCA)
 
Sabena 690
Topic Author
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:11 pm

Thanks for Info pressclub!!

Very interesting!!!

I thought it was true because they made that announcement on VRT radio.

Thanks!!

Best regards,
Frederic
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:13 pm

They also said that (the pilots)they understaind the desision not the use Belgium pilots for the moment.
But ask to do so as soon as possible?
Regards;
Patrice
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:15 pm

Frederic,

You have to listen carefully to the radio. They said that the pilots say that it may be a BMi operation.Not that the airline said it.

Until now, DAT nor BMi have announced the news.

Pressclub
 
Sabena 690
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:16 pm

Thanks for clearing this up!!

Frederic
 
SN-A330
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlin

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:20 pm

Thanks for the information Pressclub.

It's sad but I doubt we will see ex-Sabena pilots on these flights in the near future.

regards, SN-A330
I would rather be flying...
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:30 pm

Dear SN-A330

The only possibility is that BMi - if they get the contract - hires some Belgians via a pilot interim company like Capital Aviation or IAC or so.

Maybe they will consider this. Some DAT management people are thinking on this option.

About 800 Belgian pilots are unemployed now (figures from BeCA this morning).

Who found a job?

x Less than 50 were hired by the charter start-up Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium.

x A dozen are flying in Italy for Air One (Boeing 737).

x And there are some individual solutions (two were hired by SQ, one went to Air Mauritius, etc).

x About 50 hope they will be hired by the VG Airlines project. But until now nobody of them could sign a contract

Greetz

Pressclub

I keep you all informed but i also have to write for my newspaper  Smile
 
flying lsd
Posts: 284
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:40 pm

OK but what will DAT do with 1 A332 only ?
That's not enough for 3 destinations
Maybe we will wait more information about a second wet lease.
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:47 pm

Dear Flying Isd,

The planning is: starting with one aircraft and adding a second after some weeks or months depending on the commercial results and financial situation.

You can starting with one aircraft to this destinations as long as you don't offer daily frequencies. So I think they will combine Kinshasa with Entebbe or Kigali with Entebbe. Combining Kinshasa with Kigali is impossible due to the political situation.

Sabena combined also in the past African flights ('double touch'), DAT wil do the same I think.

Regards

Pressclub
 
SN-A330
Posts: 1052
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlin

Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:33 am

Does anyone know if this Africa operation is possible with only one a/c ?

Any info or reactions ?

Regards, SN-A330
I would rather be flying...
 
Sabena 690
Topic Author
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:39 am

Hey SN-A330:

Check out this (the reply of pressclub):

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/736808/

Best regards,
Frederic
 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:06 am


While it is sad no Belgian pilots are going to be involved in the new African operations, I can understand why DAT wants to go with BMI. DAT has no money to hire more people and lease A330's. By using BMI the financial risks are covered by BMI. DAT would only "Charter" planes & staff from BMI, if DAT cant sell enough tickets they will stop using BMI; financial impact will be smaller compared to laying off staff and breaking A/C leases in case of own African ops.
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:35 pm

If the pilots are not happy they can maybe go on STRIKE.
That's the way they kild SABENA!
Regards
patrice
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:49 am

AirDD - what financial risks are with bmi?? They will be wet leasing the aircraft to DAT at a rate of between US$5 and 6,000 per hour and DAT will be paying all other operating expenses direct.

As these aircraft are on the UK register, anyone flying them would have to hold UK licences. Also, as Lumumba pointed out, BeCA members have proven through their work-shy attitudes that they are a serious liability. A headache bmi could do without, in other words!!  Big grin
 
Avronaut
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 3:59 am

I think DAT doesn't want (belgian) pilots who go on strike 4 times a year...
 
airDD
Posts: 367
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 4:03 am

Ceilidh :

Risks for BMI are DAT deciding to stop flying to Africa & not paying BMI

The cash position of DAT is already very weak and it includes a government loan that might be considered illegal by the EC

 
LJ
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 4:23 am

AikrDD, haven't you learned anything over the past months? It doesn't matter if SN Brussels received the money illegaly, as long as the Belgian government want to be faced with a failure, they'll survive. As for the cash psoition, they probably find a solution at the very last hour (as usual).

BTW the reason you give for the wet lease are correct. Moreover, given the current status of the A330 at various airlines (Novair, BMI) any work for the aircraft is wellcome (and thus they won't ask much for it).

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 5:17 am

AirDD - all ACMI leases are payable in advance usually with up to three months worth of rent as security deposit.

The problem is that the African routes are purely political - all of the destinations being in former Belgian colonies. FIH cannot be combined with either KGL or EBB due to the support of Rwanda and Uganda for rebels in the DRC. SN used to operate those services as a triangular route going onto NBO before returning to BRU. My previous company company provided feed from BJM to both KGL and EBB.

However, the markets are not especially great with the ongoing wars in the Great Lakes region causing economic mayhem; and the local currencies are both unstable and hard to change into dollars or other convertible currency for repatriation.
 
bmi330
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 5:49 am

will bmi get there 4th a330 to do these routes i hope so. the a330 looks so good in the bmi colours
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:02 am

They would use the third one - returned off lease early by SAS.
 
lhb
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:24 pm

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:07 am

Following my last informations, there are still 3 possibilities for those BRU-Africa flights commercialised by SN Brussels Airlines (new DAT + name) :
-wet-lease from BMI (A332)
-wet-lease from VG Airlines, which will also begin his own flight operations from BRU to USA end March with A332 ex-SN
-ex A333 SN operated drectly by SN Brussels airlines

I think that the 3rd solution would be the best for ex-SN pilots but it's not the best financial solution for SN Brussels airlines...
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:11 am

Will it wear SN Brussels colors or sticker?
 
Sabena 690
Topic Author
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:13 am

Hey Lhb,

I also hope the 3th possibility: A330 operated by SN Brussels Airlines. But like you say, the financial site of the plan...

Best regards,
Frederic
 
lhb
Posts: 40
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:19 am

Hi Frédéric (Sabena 690),

Do you have more info about the second solution (with VG), do you also have more news about own VG operations (to USA)?

Laurent.
 
Sabena 690
Topic Author
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:43 am

Hey Laurens,

VG has already a schedule!! (check their website).
So I think that they are going to start operations (and I hope!!). Freddy Van Gaever is a man who knows what he is doing, and I hope that his new project of VG-Air will be a succes. I believe that flights to Boston and New York depart here around the noon (I am not sure). So if he has already a slot, I think that his plans will luck. A big problem here in Belgium is 'Het Bestuur Der Luchtvaart'. I don't know if you saw the interview with Freddy V.G. on Kanaal Z about 3 weeks ago. They are working against him, unbelieveble. For the rest, I can't tell you a lot. As you see in my profil, I am still 17 (almost 18 by the way), and I also have to read and hear everything. I don't have connections neither by Sabena (or ex-Sabena) neither by VG-air. I know some people by e-mail, and that is all. We will see what it is going to be next weeks...

Best regards,
Frederic

By the way, I see in your profil that you are an engineer. I am in doubt what I have to study next year. If you are an engineer in avionics, can you send me a mail please? Thank you!!
 
LJ
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:13 am

Sabena 690,

You mean Laurent, not Laurens.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:19 am

Sorry Lj

Will try to deny that name!!

Regards,
Frederic
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:51 am

Hi Guys,

SN Brussels Airlines wants to start flying to Africa before eastern,says chairman R Kuypers.

It looks like VG Airlines will not get it AOC before mid april or so. The administration is not working against Mr Van Gaever. They are only following their procedures and everybody has to respect these procedures. Getting an AOC is not getting a piece of cake.

For his flights to the US VG AIR also needs green light from the Department of Transport, i think. I am not sure they have this already.

Pressclub
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 8:01 am

You can't get the approval of DOT before you have an AOC. Moreover, you can't start selling tickets before you have an AOC (unless you know you get one).

BTW is the schedule of SN Brussels which is currently in Amadeus the intended schedule which they're going to fly or is this just still the schedule of "the old Sabena"?

Regards
Laurens
 
SN-A330
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlin

Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:20 pm

LJ,

I have the impression that it still is the old schedule !

Regards, SN-A330
I would rather be flying...
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:12 pm

You can't do an ACMI lease unless you have your own AOC either - so Lhb's option 2 is also out. That leaves just one practical option - the wet lease from bmi or similar.

As I have said many times, there are two pieces of paper that van Gaever needs from the Belgian CAA: the AOC which means that his operational infrastructure is satisfactory and an Operating Licence (OL) which means that their financial infrastructure is approved. As Lj says, only once those are both in place can they apply for a DOT402 which will allow then to operate to the US.

The chances of VG being in operation before summer are very slim indeed - and bear in mind as well that many of their pilots will be losing their A330 currency soon as well if they have not done so already.

Finally, ILFC have made it clear to van Gaever that he has to start paying for the aircraft from next month - regardless of whether or not he gets an AOC (and which is why he was demanding his certification be in place before March 1st).

The mid April timescale as postulated by Pressclub is also wildly optimistic!

Reading through the VG Airlines website, it's clear that his team have little long haul (and certainly no transatlantic) airline expertise. For example, he is trying to limit his pax to just 50kgs of baggage rather than using the piece system - which gives around 66kgs per pax; and is also saying that child fares are restricted to one child per adult. Both of these are illegal; and if he tries them he will get blocked from flying to the US.

 
LJ
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 7:39 pm

According to the VG website the first A330 is scheduled to arrive on Feb 23 and the next two will arrive 2 and 4 weeks later. VG also claims that the crews will be fully trained as of Feb 20.

Maybe SN Brussels can wetlease a A330 from them as long as VG doesn't have an AOC and route authorisation.

BTW on Feb 18 the expect to receive slots at BRU.
 
Guest

RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Sun Feb 17, 2002 8:05 pm

VG cannot wetlease without having an AOC and OL in place; in other words only properly approved airlines can do wet leases. The best they could do would be to dry lease the aircraft.
 
pressclub
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RE: DAT Goes To Africa With British Midland Airlines

Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:26 am

I know that VG Airlines is still in the race.

But it will be difficult. They will not have their AOC soon and SN Brussels Airlines wants to start longhaul flights before Eastern, this means at the start of the summer time schedule. Every day they are not flying they loose market share to Air France...

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