TheGeordielad
Topic Author
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Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:26 am

When will this be completed?
From what I understand is that from 33 A319/320 eurowings are receiving off air Berlin for 6 year lease are going to replace the Germanwings A320s
But that's all I heard recently.
Anyone got any updates?
 
aviationaware
Posts: 1649
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:48 am

There is no corporate merger. All that's happening is the Germanwings planes will be repainted as Eurowings and fly under wet lease for the latter, just like the Air Berlin planes. Germanwings GmbH will continue to be a separate corporate entity.
 
bmibaby737
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:07 am

Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:42 am

None of the Germanwings aircraft have been painted into Eurowings... is there a timeframe for when it will occur?

Are the A320s going back to Lufthansa?
 
aviationaware
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:56 am

bmibaby737 wrote:
Are the A320s going back to Lufthansa?


The A320s currently flying under Germanwings livery are among the oldest anywhere, some of them are being retired and the rest will follow rather sooner than later. They won't go back to LH.
 
r2rho
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 11:58 am

From a branding point of view, it has already happened. The average customer doesn't see Germanwings anywhere, though there may still be a handful or so of 4U-painted aircraft left. 4U flight numbers also still exist, in codeshare with EW.
As for the corporate level, AFAIK a merger is not planned. Rather, 4U is being let to gradually die (there are no new hirings, no trainings being offered to staff, "incentives" to move to EW, etc). The aircraft will go to EW or wherever LH group sees fit at the time.
 
mozart
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 12:17 pm

Can someone give me some clarity on the overall situation? Some of the posts here are very helpful, thanks a lot! But I still remain confused:

1. For passengers, it's all one airline marketing the flights, it's Eurowings. There is no Germanwings website, only Eurowings, selling flights of both companies - correct?
2. There are two airlines, Germanwings and Eurowings. Each has its own AOC. Each has its own management, operations, etc. Each operates flights under its own code. - correct?
3. There is no clear pattern as to which of 4U or EW flies where (CGN for instance has more 4U flights, DUS has more EW flights) - correct?
4. Flights with 4U code are operated by planes painted in 4U colours, flights with EW code are operated by planes painted in EW colours - correct?
5. 4U will be slowly phased out - no merger into EW, just when the last 4U planes stops operating will the company, the AOC and the code "die"

---

6. Air Berlin has wetleased planes to Eurowings. Pilots, crews and planes are all from Air Berlin, but planes are painted in EW colours - correct?
7. The wetleased planes also have EW corporate identity in the cabin, not just outside paint - correct?
8. Air Berlin wetlease planes are operated only by AB crew - correct?
9. These wetlease planes operate any route in the EW network, EW has not taken over AB routes - correct?
10. To passengers, there is no difference between an EW-original plane and an AB wetlease plane, they look the same inside and outside, crews have same informs, etc. - correct?
 
LTH
Posts: 127
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 1:29 pm

mozart wrote:
Can someone give me some clarity on the overall situation? Some of the posts here are very helpful, thanks a lot! But I still remain confused:

1. For passengers, it's all one airline marketing the flights, it's Eurowings. There is no Germanwings website, only Eurowings, selling flights of both companies - correct?
2. There are two airlines, Germanwings and Eurowings. Each has its own AOC. Each has its own management, operations, etc. Each operates flights under its own code. - correct?
3. There is no clear pattern as to which of 4U or EW flies where (CGN for instance has more 4U flights, DUS has more EW flights) - correct?
4. Flights with 4U code are operated by planes painted in 4U colours, flights with EW code are operated by planes painted in EW colours - correct?
5. 4U will be slowly phased out - no merger into EW, just when the last 4U planes stops operating will the company, the AOC and the code "die"

---

6. Air Berlin has wetleased planes to Eurowings. Pilots, crews and planes are all from Air Berlin, but planes are painted in EW colours - correct?
7. The wetleased planes also have EW corporate identity in the cabin, not just outside paint - correct?
8. Air Berlin wetlease planes are operated only by AB crew - correct?
9. These wetlease planes operate any route in the EW network, EW has not taken over AB routes - correct?
10. To passengers, there is no difference between an EW-original plane and an AB wetlease plane, they look the same inside and outside, crews have same informs, etc. - correct?


I'll try to answer as best as I can. ;)

1. Yes, for marketing purposes there only is Eurowings.
2. Correct. To different companies. They can't share crews, aircraft etc. For management there are shared departments and some separate departments though they move to one centralized management.
3. Correct as well. On some days flights are operated by EW on some days by 4U. And nowadays there are a bunch of flights operated by AB for EW. ;) Tricky thing though the EW website tells u upon booking already who's going to operate the fight. Substitutes do happen though for operational reasons. On board product is the same on all flights whether AB for EW, EW itself or 4U.
4. Correct.
5. Another correct assumption.

6. Planes are painted in EW colors, cabin staff gets EW cabin training to get to know their service procedures.
7. The wet leased planes have EW interiors, correct. But they do keep the AB Recaro seats and just get different headrest covers.
8. As they are wet leased these planes are operated by AB crew, yes.
9. Tricky question: AB is pulling off some routes so these routes aren't taken over by EW directly but more like "indirectly" since EW "starts to operate" these routes since the beginning of the wet lease agreement. AB planes operate on all routes though. Existing EW/4U routes and "new ones". For example: EW operations in Munich have started with an all AB fleet. I guess you can call it an indirect take over.
10. Uniforms are different for now. At least 4U wears different uniforms than EW. Starting in 2018 all cabin crew will get the EW uniform. So to the untrained eye its all the same, for the geeks you can spot the differences between the three airlines every now and then for the next few months.

LTH
 
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sergegva
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 3:26 pm

r2rho wrote:
From a branding point of view, it has already happened. The average customer doesn't see Germanwings anywhere, though there may still be a handful or so of 4U-painted aircraft left. 4U flight numbers also still exist, in codeshare with EW.


How many of Germanwings' 57 aircraft have already been repainted? If all or most of them are still with a Germanwings livery, we can hardly say that, for the average customer, the merger already happened ! For the general public, the livery is, by far, the number 1 criterion.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:03 pm

LTH wrote:
7. The wet leased planes have EW interiors, correct. But they do keep the AB Recaro seats and just get different headrest covers.

9. Tricky question: AB is pulling off some routes so these routes aren't taken over by EW directly but more like "indirectly" since EW "starts to operate" these routes since the beginning of the wet lease agreement. AB planes operate on all routes though. Existing EW/4U routes and "new ones". For example: EW operations in Munich have started with an all AB fleet. I guess you can call it an indirect take over.

LTH


Regarding the seats: they'll remove one row to increase pitch in the front half of the plane.

Regarding the routes: Most of the planes will replace 4U flights. Some of it are new, i.e. Munich, and some are 'taken over'
 
Ig2
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:05 pm

sergegva wrote:
r2rho wrote:
From a branding point of view, it has already happened. The average customer doesn't see Germanwings anywhere, though there may still be a handful or so of 4U-painted aircraft left. 4U flight numbers also still exist, in codeshare with EW.


How many of Germanwings' 57 aircraft have already been repainted? If all or most of them are still with a Germanwings livery, we can hardly say that, for the average customer, the merger already happened ! For the general public, the livery is, by far, the number 1 criterion.


None have and none will. Gwi will continue to operate for EW though. According to the reached labour agreement.
The first A320 is gone to LH according to skyliners.
 
TC957
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:10 pm

Glad I'm not the only one totally confused now by the LH/AB/4U/EW fleet changeovers !
 
FSDan
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm

This is all very complicated. Are there plans for AB to become part of LH, or just to do wet leasing?

Do we know what the planned end state looks like for AB, LH, and EW? It would be interesting to see something like this:
o LH handling most short and long haul from FRA and MUC
o EW handling most short haul from DUS, CGN, and BER
o AB handling long haul from CGN/DUS and TXL and codesharing with EW
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm

There will be no merger, both Germanwings and Eurowings are 100 % owned by LH group. The difference between the airlines are the unions the crew is organized in. Germanwings has the same union as LH. Germanwings will slowly disappear.
 
Ig2
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 4:14 pm

TC957 wrote:
Glad I'm not the only one totally confused now by the LH/AB/4U/EW fleet changeovers !


Add eurowings Europe a separate AOC in Vienna to the list
 
skipness1E
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 5:10 pm

This is becoming an utter FUBAR now. The whole Germanwings fleet carries 4U colours and callsigns but is sold on the Eurowings platform as Germanwings. The original plan was to merge the two I think?
 
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ua900
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 02, 2017 6:31 pm

skipness1E wrote:
This is becoming an utter FUBAR now. The whole Germanwings fleet carries 4U colours and callsigns but is sold on the Eurowings platform as Germanwings. The original plan was to merge the two I think?


As always, LH has to contend with unions who don't want the race to the bottom to continue. LH tried to do 4U and that didn't quite scale, plus the unions never gave up their resistance. Many *A FFs like myself now fly through FRA or MUC now to avoid EW/4U, it's one of the few times I sided with employees in labor strikes. I guess EW is good for U2/FR crowd, but does nothing for people towards the top end of the revenue scale. LH Group is trying to be all things to all people, reminds me of AB a couple years ago.

As it stands, here's how it's structured:

1. "Leisure" division through EW/4U a la U2/FR/WW (including expanded EW long haul)
2. "Discount" long-distance with *LH service standards* through Jump and OS
3. "Premium" division through LH and LX long haul
4. Stuff LH Group mgmt would have liked to see under EW but unions didn't buy into (all the LH, LX, OS short haul hub traffic)

The legal vehicle under which these are structured seems highly dependent on individual agreements made at the time (LH CityLine, Sun Express JV, Jump, Austrian registered EW planes, etc) and it's that garden variety that creates the confusion. Let's remember that SN also hangs in the balance, although it seems more likely to go the EW way.

AB is a huge chapter by itself:

1. LH wants to take over AB, EY wants to get rid of it as it's fully busy with AZ and JU.
Enter a game of musical chairs:
2. 10% of LH equity and money in return for AB going to LH
3. LH doesn't want AB without EY first paying down AB's billion dollar debt
4. LH doesn't want TuiFly components
5. Niki is split from AB again, coupled with the undesirable TuiFly and effectively stays with EY through Austrian straw man
6. AB long haul 330s can go into EW long haul but what about the flat beds
7. Overstaffed AB operations relative to reduced fleet size
8. BER not getting completed so it can't serve as EW long haul hub

It would have been easier for the customer to differentiate had LH been able to convince the unions once and for all to make the LH short haul flying go to EW in return for not introducing EW long haul. Clear split, similar lousy service short haul including dismal Euro business, but maintaining excellence long haul. Same with AB, 330s into regular LH long haul, Jump / OS / LX, all the short haul AB stuff you want to keep into EW. Make EW a *A member or at least an informal agreement to extend all customary LH Group courtesies and accruals to EW. Done :lol:
2017: ARN | CVG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | HAM | HKG | LAX | MCO | ORD | SAT | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
r2rho
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Thu May 04, 2017 2:23 pm

A good trick is to check the a/c registration, regardless of livery:

D-AKNx are leased 4U or ex-4U transferred to EW, some even ex-LH Italia :)
D-AGWx are original 4U or ex-4U transferred to EW
D-ABxx are AB
D-AIxx are ex-LH, transferred to 4U or EW
D-AEWx are EW Germany
OE-xxx are EW Europe

End of 2016, LH announced that it would transfer an additional 18 aircraft to EW ownership (and not just branding).

Glad I'm not the only one totally confused now by the LH/AB/4U/EW fleet changeovers !

Yes, it is extremely complicated, and each year LH group adds another layer of complication on top. Basically, you can consider EW as purely a marketing brand, below which several airlines operate, including EW itself.

How many of Germanwings' 57 aircraft have already been repainted? If all or most of them are still with a Germanwings livery, we can hardly say that, for the average customer, the merger already happened ! For the general public, the livery is, by far, the number 1 criterion.

None have and none will.
Sorry, but this is incorrect. Quite a few 4U airplanes have been repainted by now. At places like CGN, you will still catch 4U liveries. At smaller bases like HAM, you will almost only see EW liveries. And over time, all will end up in EW livery (and ownership).

Are there plans for AB to become part of LH, or just to do wet leasing?
Nothing has been said officially, but my personal interpetation is that LH is gradually taking over (the good parts of) AB through the back door, in order to not raise competition concerns.
 
Ig2
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Thu May 04, 2017 5:15 pm

r2rho wrote:

How many of Germanwings' 57 aircraft have already been repainted? If all or most of them are still with a Germanwings livery, we can hardly say that, for the average customer, the merger already happened ! For the general public, the livery is, by far, the number 1 criterion.

None have and none will.
Sorry, but this is incorrect. Quite a few 4U airplanes have been repainted by now. At places like CGN, you will still catch 4U liveries. At smaller bases like HAM, you will almost only see EW liveries. And over time, all will end up in EW livery


No they have not sorry. At DUS and HAM you will catch the Eurowings Germany registered planes as these are their two bases. (D-AIZx and D-AEWx registered planes.) All the ex GWI planes (D-AKNx D-AIQx D-AIPx and D-AGWx) are still stationed at their respective GWI bases which are HAM TXL DUS HAJ DTM CGN and STR. None of those 4U planes have been repainted and none will into the EW colors. The air Berlin planes operate from all of these bases so maybe that are the ones you saw.

Greetings
 
TheGeordielad
Topic Author
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 30, 2017 9:54 am

Well it looks like Germanwings
A319 G-AGWP has been ferried
Cologne to Norwich for painting into Eurowings.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 30, 2017 10:57 am

What a shambolic, pathetic, PR-disaster. This is so confusing, even for us a.nutters. I am wondering what the average (business) flyer thinks of the LH group?! So much for German efficiency, consistency and quality!
 
debonair
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 30, 2017 11:53 am

Ig2 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Glad I'm not the only one totally confused now by the LH/AB/4U/EW fleet changeovers !


Add eurowings Europe a separate AOC in Vienna to the list


But you have also to add SunExpress to Eurowings - as they do the longhaul flights from CGN with the A330's as well as some limited intra-European flights with their B737-800 and A330 on behalf of Eurowings.
 
masi1157
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 30, 2017 12:35 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
What a shambolic, pathetic, PR-disaster. This is so confusing, even for us a.nutters. I am wondering what the average (business) flyer thinks of the LH group?! So much for German efficiency, consistency and quality!


When I fly out of HAM to other places than FRA or MUC and beyond, I often book through Eurowings.com (or our business travel agent does through other channels) and I don't care at all if in the end the flight is operated by Germanwings, Eurowings or Air Berlin for Eurowings. Nothing confusing, annoying or disturbing about it and by far not a disaster.

Gruß, masi1157
481 different segments on 95 airlines to 200 airports in 54 countries
 
TheGeordielad
Topic Author
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Tue May 30, 2017 1:36 pm

Ig2 wrote:

None of those 4U planes have been repainted and none will into the EW colors. The air Berlin planes operate from all of these bases so maybe that are the ones you saw.

Greetings

Where did you here that?
I know it was 3-4 weeks ago your post but still.1 A319 has just went for painting.
 
jurgenvonstr
Posts: 1
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:07 pm

So, can someone tell me (I mean a date), when Germanwings won't fly anymore? Here I mean, that planes aren't painted in Germanwings colors, and crew doesn't wear Germanwings uniforms.
 
TheGeordielad
Topic Author
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:28 am

jurgenvonstr wrote:
So, can someone tell me (I mean a date), when Germanwings won't fly anymore? Here I mean, that planes aren't painted in Germanwings colors, and crew doesn't wear Germanwings uniforms.

There was something mention by Lufthansa saying it would be completed by March 2019
 
Ig2
Posts: 4
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:53 am

TheGeordielad wrote:
Ig2 wrote:

None of those 4U planes have been repainted and none will into the EW colors. The air Berlin planes operate from all of these bases so maybe that are the ones you saw.

Greetings

Where did you here that?
I know it was 3-4 weeks ago your post but still.1 A319 has just went for painting.


Ok sorry on my part I should have been more clear.

what I am saying is, no Germanwings Aircraft will be painted into EW Colors while operating for germanwings. D-AGWG has been painted and D-AGWQ has been too. Other A320 are moved to LH or storage. They are transferred to Eurowings Europe according to skyliner aviation. They will be OE-LYY and OE-LYZ respectively.
Germanwings will continue to operate with its own brand though.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:38 am

4 A319 will move to E2 (Eurowings Europe). D-AGWP to D-AGWS. D-AGWP is already repainted, Q is in the paintshop. All A320s are leaving this year (Some to LH others are being parked, they are all 20years +).

Regarding the other A319s nothing is decided yet, as there is no new contract signed with the pilots. The LH (and 4U) contract will specify a number of aircraft to be operated and it will be up to the management, under which AOC they'll operate.
 
stylo777
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:25 pm

Does EW has a flight number structure?
 
TheGeordielad
Topic Author
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Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:35 pm

stylo777 wrote:
Does EW has a flight number structure?

EW 3 digit long haul
EW 4 digit short haul
I don't know on exact numbers but that's roughly what it is.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Eurowings/Germanwings merger

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:49 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
stylo777 wrote:
Does EW has a flight number structure?

EW 3 digit long haul
EW 4 digit short haul
I don't know on exact numbers but that's roughly what it is.


No, the Flightnumbers are based on the basis the flight is operated from. CGN (the oldest) has the range up to 0999, that's why long-haul flights are in the three digit numbers. However, other flights from CGN have 2 (as far as I know only intra-germany) or 3 digits as well.

DUS, the biggest base, has flight numbers in the 9XXX range and Hamburg 7XXX. Other bases are TXL, STR, HAJ, DTM, VIE, MUC, PMI, SZG.

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