Mirabilis
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:54 am

KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:04 am

This past Monday, February 11th, at approximately 8:30 PM (EST), I was on KLM 641 from Amsterdam to JFK. We were inbound for RWY 31L, and, at an altitude of 100-200', the pilot declared a missed approach and went around for a second (successful) landing.

The head stewardess made an announcement that the reason for the go-around was that there was another aircraft on the active runway.

Does anyone have any further details or information on any of the above?

Also, the fact that there was (apparently) another aircraft on our active runway strikes me as a likely mistake, either on behalf of the pilot or ATC.

Anyone have any insight?
 
jetset
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:24 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:18 am

happens all the time.my guess the aircraft in front of you did not exit the runway quick enough on landing or a plane was taking off from the same runway did not take-off in time.also i would say that your pilot had the other plane in sight and there was no risk.

jetset
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:32 am

Jetset is right!It's the usual reason for missed approaches
 
Mirabilis
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:54 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:35 am

Thanks, guys, for the clarification. It was a little unsettling at the time, and it was the first time that I can recall being involved in a missed approach.

 
fly_emirates
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:22 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:41 am

it could happen. one time i was spotting at DCA when i was in the united states, and a US airways aborted landing, after it almost touched down, so another continental 737 entered the threshold, mean while a spirit airline MD-80 was approaching and it climbed because of the continental 737.

i hope that makes sense
 
bkkair
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:10 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:51 am

Missed approaches are a daily ( or more than daily ) at most busy airports. Sit and watch the approaches for a couple of hours and you are bound to see one.
 
AY-MD11
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:31 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:53 am

It happens all the time in here at Helsinki airport.Last time i saw AYs dc-9 and LH 737 doing go-around.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:55 am

Whew, Mirabilis, we are SO glad you are alright. We all feel horrible about your terrifying, near death experience. Hopefully, you'll be able to recover soon. Perhaps you should take some time off work... You are right in blaming ATC and the pilots; obviously, both were rank amateurs. If I were you, I'd lobby to have both incompetent parties removed.
buhh bye
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:55 am

Not at Schiphol they are not. Schiphol tower will not clear an aircraft to land until after the runway is clear. If needed one may be sent back into the hold before turning final but that's it.
Missed approaches here are rare, and mostly due to pilots misjudging the altitude (-11 feet, some pilots read +11) and ending up too high, or the occasional forgotten landing gear.
I wish I were flying
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:13 am

Jwenting,

"The occasional forgotten landing gear"

In a modern jet-liner that is simply impossible,
same with the 20ft (-11 + 11 ft) that makes no difference at all ( except in low visibility operations )

Regards
 
Lufthansa404
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:21 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:26 am

In Kennedy tower normaly operates like this:

Situation:
---------

- 3 inbound planes for 31L
1x AAL 767, 1x BAW 747, 1 JBL A320

The 767 just touched down and is exiting the runway

ATC would do the following AAL101 turn right into juilet, hold short of bravo - contact ground 121,75.

Then ATC would not talk to Speedbird501, cause he cleared him land even before AAL101 touched down.


NOW ATC willt talk to JBL4:

"You are following a heavy Boeing 747 on a 3,5mile final. Report traffic in sight?"
- Traffic in sight
"JBL4 runway 31L cleared to land"
- Rwy31L cleared to land JBL4

At this moment Speedbird501 touches down. But as most of the time, the british pilots are a bit slow. (This has been confirmed by JFK Tower stuff). And not moves off the runway.

Now either the tower will tell JBL4 to go around, or JBL4 will do it on his own.

Its a bit tricky with those landing clearances in advances, but its effective. You can concentrate on the next task rather than clearing them to land "manualy". I know there is a word for those clearances, but I cant remember.

I just love those guys over at http://www.jfktower.com

Check out their forum, its a nice place.

Cheers

Jan
 
Turtle
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:54 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:05 am

Hey Lymanm,
What was the point of that very rude and condescending reply?? Mirabilis experienced his first missed approach and just wanted to clarify why this can happen.
Geez....
 
chepos
Posts: 5938
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:22 am

When I was coming back to school this past January on board an AA A300 from SJU to MCO the pilot did a go around. This was my first go around so I was puzzled when we were almost over the threshold of the runway and the pilot all of a sudden applied ful power and off to the sky we went . The pilot on that occasion just said it was because he was cleared to land on the wrong runway . This explanation was a bit weird but what the hell he is the one flying the plane. Anyway Mirabilis a go around is a pretty norma occurence.
Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
portcolumbus
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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:10 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 8:34 am

Lymanm, Jesus christ, give the guy a break, don't lower the quality of these forums.
 
Cap'n Dan
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 5:49 am

Lymanm

Thu Feb 14, 2002 8:38 am

Boy, lymanm, between your "Delta Totally Sucks" post last week, and now this, I don't know what's gotten a hold of you, man. You really need to get a grip. I don't know if you have some corrupting friends or anything, but, boy, chill out.  Big grin
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 8:45 am

years ago (early 1980s) I was on a TWA L1011 from San Francisco to St. Louis, on my way back to Boston. We were 'over the numbers' coming into STL, and we did the same thing...the engines spooled up and we flew a VERY tight circuit around the airport and tried again. As we did so, I looked out the window to see if I could locate the proverbial 'other aircraft on the runway.' I saw nothing. But as we were ready to touch down, I noticed that one side of the plane was decidedly lower than the other. Had we touched down, the right undercarriage would have slammed hard onto the surface.

My guess? The plane wasn't positioned quite right (due to winds, poor approach, whatever), yet the explanation was predictable: another aircraft on the runway.

Chris in New Hampshire
 
Skyway1
Posts: 977
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 12:15 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 8:46 am

There are quite a few go-arounds in MKE, I especially loved it when Midwest Express would be training new DC-9 pilots. They would do go around after go around after go around. Pretty exciting stuff seeing the 9 roar over evrey twenty minutes or so. I'm not sure if they still do that now or not.

Chris
KNUK, KNUK, KNUK woowoowoo
 
ntcrawler
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:27 am

RE: 30 Min Rule: Guy Arrested Into SLC...

Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:34 am

I experienced a go around while riding Southwest Airlines, coming into Phoenix Skyharbor from LAX, back in 1994. Same pattern: we were right over the runway, just above decision height, when the crew applied full thrust, and did their circuit around the airport for another attempt. I first thought that it was a missed approach because we were too high to stop on the runway in time. The explanation was of course "there was another plane, taking his time getting off our runway"

Needless to say my parents freaked out and still talk about it to this day, comparing my explanation for the official one, haha

-NtCrawler
 
Mirabilis
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 2:54 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 9:50 am

Lymann --

I believe my posting posed a legitimate question which was appropriately addressed to the experience of those members of this list who might have some insight into the frequency with which missed approaches occur, and the circumstances under which they occur. Nothing in my posting remotely suggests an indictment of the ATC system or of the pilots.

With the obvious exception of your post, the responses by other members of the list were very helpful, and I, of course, appreciate them.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Good On You Mirabilis!

Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:06 am

I was happy to read your reply to Lymanm's disgusting post. It is nice to know people will actually reply firmly to posters like that, I know all good members here respect that your reply.

Too often even a troll like Lymanm comes out looking good because the person he flames gets personal or something, and it turns into a jumble of blah blah blah. It is heartening to read your calculated and direct post, while still being respectful, even when you don't need to in light of his remarks.

Cheers m8, fine post, fine carry through,
BlatantEcho
They're not handing trophies out today
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

SuckmyfatoneBlatantecho

Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:58 pm

_
buhh bye
 
smolt
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 12:11 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 2:37 pm

Although never experienced go-around with myself
on board, I got several impressive go arounds as a witness;
CAAC B747SP (at that time) was holding short of the runway at NRT, and UA 747 were short on final and were cleared to land....but the 747SP suddenly taxied into the runway and began take off roll. The tower controller cried "STOP! STOP! STOP!" and the CAAC aborted take off and stopped in the middle of the runway. At once UA did go around. Just in my guess, CAAC mistaken landing clearance to UA for take off clearance for him, because CAAC had English translator in the cockpit for pilots who do not understand English.
Additional interesting point, the CAAC seemed to extend the flap to 30 degrees, and after UA go around, he took off without resuming flaps with the usual degree (maybe 5). I still wonder that the rest of the runway was long enough for take off and that the extended flaps should affect the VR and V2 speed.
 
9Y-ISA
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 4:17 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:16 pm

When me and another friend was spotting at Pearson Int'l in Toronto, there was a British Airways B777-200 was coming in for a landing and as soon as the main landing gears touched the ground he powered up and did a go-around. My friend had his scanner and we heard the pilot said to the control tower that we had a "wind shear warning". While he was contacting the tower you could hear all the alarms and warning chimes going of in the cockpit. I thought that was pretty cool!
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:05 pm

I was on a MD83 approaching CPH when the pilot made a go-around.
Reason: There was a car on the rwy!!! An A/C, ok, but a car!!
It happens now and then, but this was a little stupid reason I must admit. But also a little funny.  Smile

Lymann...

you have maybe missed the point of this forum/site.
It is for people that want's to learn and share what they know about aviation. It's actually true.
Well, maybe when you get older and your hormones have settled down, you will understand this.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
'Longreach'
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 11:36 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:11 pm

I have heard that pilots in twin engine prop planes are meant to make a firm decision weather to go around or not by 300ft. Does any rule as such like this apply to widebodies?

These go- arounds cost the airlines huge dollars, but if the pilots deem neccasary or the air traffic control has not issued clearance then they must be done for safety sake.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Portcolumbus

Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:31 pm

How do you manage to catagorize Lymanm's behavior with Jesus Christ? I'll agree that his reply was inappropriate and distasteful. But for you to react in the way that you did shows that you have more strikes against you than he does. I know that one morning you will wake up and wish that you had never said that.
 Smile
.......
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:56 pm

A320, so I would like to believe.
Yet I have seen an aircraft come withing 20 feet of crashing into the runway with no gear down before it flew a missed approach. 15 minutes or so later it was back with gear down. This was a KLM 737 btw.
I've also seen aircraft make violent last second corrections to correct for an approach that ended too high. Seems to happen more often with older aircraft.

I wish I were flying
 
lmml 14/32
Posts: 2358
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:27 am

RE: KLM Missed Approach Feb. 11 At JFK

Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:19 pm

A go-around is not as uncommon as people think, like it has rightly been said here already. I have experienced quite a few as an FA. I most enjoyed the ones which I witnessed first hand from the jumpseat in the cockpit. The most recent one an A320 that aborted in fog. The plane could have landed automatically, but the pilots were not both certified for Cat 3 landing, and we aborted at some 200 ft.