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enilria
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What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:17 pm

I recently flew on a flight with 30" seat pitch. I'm not that tall and I was unable to achieve the example of crash position on the safety card because the seat is close that I could not bend over and clear my head to achieve crash position.

Is this not a safety issue? This also seems like a way to stop seat pitch from getting cut any more.

When an airline does a seat reconfigure, does FAA even check this?
 
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TheLion
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:59 pm

An interesting viewpoint. Hopefully some on here in the know could advise?
 
jetskipper
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:00 pm

The safest seat position is actually rearward facing, however airlines choose not to configure their aircraft this way due to passenger preference.
 
ninspeed
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:06 pm

If we loaded from the right rear door, and all the seats where reversed.... I would guess 90% of people would not even notice other than a long walk down an over wing bridge....
 
nitepilot79
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:34 pm

ninspeed wrote:
If we loaded from the right rear door, and all the seats where reversed.... I would guess 90% of people would not even notice other than a long walk down an over wing bridge....


Kind of off-topic here... the 10% of us who enjoy looking out the window would still be expected to keep the shades shut by request of many FAs across many airlines, so I guess '80s Aeroflot rubbed-off, in a way.
Last edited by nitepilot79 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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adamblang
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:41 pm

It's my understanding that the purpose of the brace position is put your body in its maximum forward position to minimize whiplash. Your face against the back of the seat in front of you does the same thing.
146 319 320 321 332 333 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
rlwynn
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:50 pm

Proper Crash Position just means you will looking at the floor when you die. Has anybody ever survived just because they were in proper Crash Position?
I can drive faster than you
 
nitepilot79
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:03 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Proper Crash Position just means you will looking at the floor when you die. Has anybody ever survived just because they were in proper Crash Position?


I've always thought that I'd rather see the crash coming, if possible.
 
YIMBY
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:06 pm

rlwynn wrote:
Proper Crash Position just means you will looking at the floor when you die. Has anybody ever survived just because they were in proper Crash Position?


The survivor of the Colombia crash claimed so. Luck may have been other contributing element.

Another purpose of the brace position is that you do not hit your head abruptly against the seat in front of you, if the plane decelerates very rapidly when crashing survivably.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:15 pm

I also have questions about the crash safety of really tight pitches on planes. I'm 6'1", so I am tall but not extremely tall. I have a friend who who is about 6'3" and has a son who is about 6'6" to 6'7". I've seen him complain on Facebook about how his knees hit the back of the seat in front when sitting normally. How is that not a safety issue. In a crash, isn't it likely his legs would get broken? Wouldn't that be an issue for evacuating himself and others on his row from the plane?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:27 pm

jetskipper wrote:
The safest seat position is actually rearward facing, however airlines choose not to configure their aircraft this way due to passenger preference.


Southwest used to have lounge seating on its classic 737's before they upgraded their fleet to 16G seats. I used to love flying in the backwards facing seats, plus those rows had 12 seats with extra legroom.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:52 pm

ninspeed wrote:
If we loaded from the right rear door, and all the seats where reversed.... I would guess 90% of people would not even notice other than a long walk down an over wing bridge....

Not if the planes reached the gate on arrival and were pushed in backwards with a tug, then on departure they can just pull out on their own power. That could probably cut down on taxi times and ramp congestion.

Is'nt the best brace position the one in F where you bend and grab your ankles? That would keep your head from anything except for maybe your knees.
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TW870
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:58 pm

adamblang wrote:
It's my understanding that the purpose of the brace position is put your body in its maximum forward position to minimize whiplash. Your face against the back of the seat in front of you does the same thing.


Yes, the point of the brace position is to avoid whiplash, avoid a high impact collision between the head and either the seat in front or the bulkhead, and to keep the head below seatback level to prevent being hit by flying objects above seat level during the deceleration. In our flight attendant training at United they said that both the leaning forward with the head placed on crossed hands on the seat in front or the grad ankles method are equally secure. But of course in some high g-force decelerations - such as UA232 - it would be difficult or impossible to maintain the brace position due to the force of the impact and subsequent bounces.
 
dochawk2
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:00 pm

Myth Busters did an episode on this. I don't have a link for you. It is pretty well researched that by bending forward, or backwards for that matter, GREATLY reduces stress on your organs, bones and connective tissues from an axial load.
 
dochawk2
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:04 pm

Here is a quote from Discovery Channel's website:

MythBusters Kari Byron, Tory Belleci and Grant Imahara put their dummy Buster through a series of simulated plane crashes to see if that myth would survive. They bought airline seats and built a mini plane cabin to suspend from a crane. Then they dropped the cabin 15 feet (4.6 meters) to see how Buster fared sitting upright versus in the brace position. From that height, Buster hit the ground with about 21 g-force units of impact.

Although the ShockWatch stickers on Buster's body showed that he would've made it out alive in either position, his body absorbed more of the impact while sitting upright than in the brace position. Sitting in the brace position channels the crash force from your body to the chair in front of you. That explains why the Federal Aviation Agency claims it's statistically three times safer to brace for an airplane wreck than to remain upright.
 
ubeema
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:22 pm

Do F or J passengers have better chance than Y using accident stats? If not airlines or FAA won't probably look into diminishing pitch
 
Chaostheory
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:36 pm

The optimal seat pitch for the brace position is 32 inches.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I also have questions about the crash safety of really tight pitches on planes. I'm 6'1", so I am tall but not extremely tall. I have a friend who who is about 6'3" and has a son who is about 6'6" to 6'7". I've seen him complain on Facebook about how his knees hit the back of the seat in front when sitting normally. How is that not a safety issue. In a crash, isn't it likely his legs would get broken? Wouldn't that be an issue for evacuating himself and others on his row from the plane?


Following the 737 crash at Kegworth, 28 inch seat pitch was banned as the Weber seats were found to have restricted egress during evacuation. Those restrictions were later lifted and until 2014, the UK CAA specified a minimum seat pitch of 28 inches. I could be wrong but I believe there is no longer a minimum pitch required in the UK anymore, though, I don't know of any airline with less than 28 inch pitch.

You're right to point out limited seat pitch is a safety concern. It takes a strong stomach to read the injury reports following the Kegworth crash involving horrible femur, tibia and lumbar fractures. These sorts of injuries often result in a degree of disability for the rest of life.
 
OB1504
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:27 am

Chaostheory wrote:
Following the 737 crash at Kegworth, 28 inch seat pitch was banned as the Weber seats were found to have restricted egress during evacuation. Those restrictions were later lifted and until 2014, the UK CAA specified a minimum seat pitch of 28 inches. I could be wrong but I believe there is no longer a minimum pitch required in the UK anymore, though, I don't know of any airline with less than 28 inch pitch.


Another thing to consider, though, is that seats are slimmer nowadays, so the same seat pitch could have greater usable space than it did 30 years ago.
 
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seahawk
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:35 am

As long as your body is in contact with the seat in front, it is okay, as the force will be transmitted to the seat, regardless if you are in brace position or just leaning on the back of the other seat.

Position 2 is actually better:

Image
 
BrianDromey
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:28 am

The OP seems to suggest that in the event of a crash there would be one, sudden stop. Given the speeds and forces involved this is hardly likely. Seats are certified to 16G IIRC. Good luck maintaining any position against that...
Regulators would be better to concentrate on cabin furnishings and three point seatbelt/harnesses.
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YIMBY
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
As long as your body is in contact with the seat in front, it is okay, as the force will be transmitted to the seat, regardless if you are in brace position or just leaning on the back of the other seat.

Position 2 is actually better:

Image


For a normal man in a typical aircraft, neither position is possible, but the head always remains highest and when reclining forward the teeth hit the uppermost corner of the seat in front. Maybe breaking teeth prevent a fatal brain injury?
 
FlyHappy
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Tue May 30, 2017 1:59 am

OB1504 wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
Following the 737 crash at Kegworth, 28 inch seat pitch was banned as the Weber seats were found to have restricted egress during evacuation. Those restrictions were later lifted and until 2014, the UK CAA specified a minimum seat pitch of 28 inches. I could be wrong but I believe there is no longer a minimum pitch required in the UK anymore, though, I don't know of any airline with less than 28 inch pitch.


Another thing to consider, though, is that seats are slimmer nowadays, so the same seat pitch could have greater usable space than it did 30 years ago.


slimming the seats has allowed the Airlines to increase the number of rows - that's where the extra space went. 28" pitch 30 years ago is still 28" pitch today, regardless of slimness of seat, there is no additional usable space, all other things being equal.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Tue May 30, 2017 7:55 am

Chaostheory wrote:
The optimal seat pitch for the brace position is 32 inches.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I also have questions about the crash safety of really tight pitches on planes. I'm 6'1", so I am tall but not extremely tall. I have a friend who who is about 6'3" and has a son who is about 6'6" to 6'7". I've seen him complain on Facebook about how his knees hit the back of the seat in front when sitting normally. How is that not a safety issue. In a crash, isn't it likely his legs would get broken? Wouldn't that be an issue for evacuating himself and others on his row from the plane?


Following the 737 crash at Kegworth, 28 inch seat pitch was banned as the Weber seats were found to have restricted egress during evacuation. Those restrictions were later lifted and until 2014, the UK CAA specified a minimum seat pitch of 28 inches. I could be wrong but I believe there is no longer a minimum pitch required in the UK anymore, though, I don't know of any airline with less than 28 inch pitch.

You're right to point out limited seat pitch is a safety concern. It takes a strong stomach to read the injury reports following the Kegworth crash involving horrible femur, tibia and lumbar fractures. These sorts of injuries often result in a degree of disability for the rest of life.


My understanding was that 28 was the legal minimum (at least for the CAA), but I highly doubt BD's configuration was that tight for the 734..?
 
rbavfan
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Re: What Seat Pitch Prevents Proper Crash Position?

Tue May 30, 2017 8:34 am

TWA772LR wrote:
ninspeed wrote:
If we loaded from the right rear door, and all the seats where reversed.... I would guess 90% of people would not even notice other than a long walk down an over wing bridge....

Not if the planes reached the gate on arrival and were pushed in backwards with a tug, then on departure they can just pull out on their own power. That could probably cut down on taxi times and ramp congestion.

Is'nt the best brace position the one in F where you bend and grab your ankles? That would keep your head from anything except for maybe your knees.


Yes and all those people staring out the windows would get cut to pieces as the jet blast shatters the windows.

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