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BOMRPR
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:53 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:12 pm

On one hand GOI wants to disinvest AI and on the other PM makes DEL-BOM-TLV flight a part of his speech in Israel, there seems to be a disconnect between what the GOI is preaching and practicing.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:46 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
None of the ME3 have shown any desire in growing Indian aviation.

Besides operating multiple flights out of airports that the Indian Govt allows them to, how else do you think they can grow Indian aviation? If the govt relaxes its idiotic protectionism they will be ready to fly many more cities and provide connectivity to the cities long ignored by the national carrier. Just look at what liberal flying rights has done to TRZ.


Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.
 
unrave
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:34 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.


One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.

ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.

The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:12 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.


One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.

ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.

The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.


You need 6E's long hauls desperately! I agree with everything that you and CaliguyNYC say. India must have multiple hubs.
India must have its own metal flying in skies. Foreign airlines are an import. Indian airlines are an export. Australia is a tiny nation, with less population than Delhi and Mumbai combined. India and Australia are not comparable.


Dubai's economy is surviving on EK only. Imagine how important strong intl network is for India's tourism sector.
I got some real work to do now. Bye!
 
Antarius
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:43 pm

anshabhi wrote:
unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Dubai's economy is surviving on EK only. Imagine how important strong intl network is for India's tourism sector.


In todays sweeping generalizations....

Blind nationalism shouldn't trump facts. (And yes, pun intended)
2017 :SIN |HKG |LAX |DFW |HOU |IAH |MAF |LBB |DCA |IAD |ORD |BOS |DEN |LHR |MAD |HNL |ITO |OGG |PHX |DOH |JHB |KUL |DEL |BLR |CDG |ORY |NRT |CGK |BTH |ICN |INV |ABZ |LCY |LTN |SFO |PHL |SJC |SLC |MIA |TPA |PBI |CLT |FLL |CUN
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:04 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.


One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.

ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.

The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.


Where did I say any opinion on smaller cities. And I do think smaller cities should be connected to the gulf, SE Asia etc. What you continue to miss is that the ME3 have a strategy to dump seats into India to stop Indian aviation from growing. The fact that AI doesn't connect DEL to your city is a shame in my book (we should all want the various parts of the country to be linked with each other). That was my original point that domestic frequencies would go up if there was a true hub in India. I am fairly sure that AI isn't avoiding your city out of some North Indian grudge or what ever.

AI has its flaws which is why people root for AI to be privatized or 9W to get its act together or Vistara to succeed. I want there to be an option to connect in DXB or DEL, BOM where ever. Up until recently, Indian airlines really had the deck stacked against them (GOI, taxes, infrastructure, ME3). And BOM/DEL are actually decent airports to connect in. This irrational hatred of those two cities is just plain weird on Anet. The South is actually well served by a BOM hub. The real losers are those in the East. Kerela is super well connected to the markets where its people primarily travel - the ME. So I don't know why anyone from Kerela should complain. Given all the ME3 frequencies, it is unlikely that any indian or foreign airline will fly from Kerela to the EU or the US.
 
vadodara
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 am

unrave wrote:
One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.

ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.

The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.


+1
Too much BOM/DEL hub nonsense spewed around. Atleast for Kerala, finally the GOI (and Maharashtra govt) threw in the towel and allowed likes of AI Express/Gulf airlines. Otherwise, the Mallus would still be harassed at Sahar!
 
blrsea
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:37 am

AI looking at more US non-stops.

Air India to add LA, Houston in its list of US destinations

"We are looking at connecting two more cities -- Los Angeles and either Houston or Dallas," Air India Chairman and MD Ashwani Lohani said at an event to celebrate the launch of the direct non-stop flight yesterday between the capitals of the two largest democracies of the world.

The direct flight to Los Angeles is expected to be launched by October, while the date for the flight to Houston or Dallas in Texas has not been determined yet, Lohani said.
..
The three times a week flight frequency from the US capital could soon be expanded to daily based on the passenger response, he said.
...

 
adi00654
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:47 am

blrsea wrote:
AI looking at more US non-stops.

Air India to add LA, Houston in its list of US destinations

"We are looking at connecting two more cities -- Los Angeles and either Houston or Dallas," Air India Chairman and MD Ashwani Lohani said at an event to celebrate the launch of the direct non-stop flight yesterday between the capitals of the two largest democracies of the world.

The direct flight to Los Angeles is expected to be launched by October, while the date for the flight to Houston or Dallas in Texas has not been determined yet, Lohani said.
..
The three times a week flight frequency from the US capital could soon be expanded to daily based on the passenger response, he said.
...



Yea LAXvis already on the cards to launch in October .Good move a weekly thrice flight and increase it on the basis of pax response. AI is making good moves and the 77L are being fully utilised up to core.
Now the 3 remaining 77L will work non stop ultra long haul daily after LAX launch

I think so SFO might be upgraded to 77W but I think it usually needs some payload off..
Or IAD can be 77W In order to free up the plane and do Houston .
 
anshabhi
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:03 am

Is any info available on profitability of these US flights, or are we the tax payers sponsoring them (like always)?
 
vadodara
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:48 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Is any info available on profitability of these US flights, or are we the tax payers sponsoring them (like always)?


DCA may be worth for the govt. to subsidize for the obvious reasons plus the presence of diaspora. Plus it is a bit underserved with traffic split between BWI as well as NY area airports/PHL etc.

However, LAX and IAH may be a stretch. Not only the flights are longer by 3-4 hrs, but both cities have fairly competitive services. For instance, LAX has likes of ME3, BA/LH etc over Atlantic and SQ/JAL/the numerous Air China's over the Pacific.

AI may really need to play its top game to even be heard. Not sure if the SFO type loads would be easy to reproduce.
 
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QuawerAir
Posts: 252
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:24 pm

A few months or two years ago, AI announced it will lease 7 Boeing 787-9 aircraft. I read that Air India would introduce flights to Atlanta and Helsinki. Is this true?
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC
AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO
A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 787
 
voxkel
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:04 pm

adi00654 wrote:

Yea LAX is already on the cards to launch in October .Good move a weekly thrice flight and increase it on the basis of pax response. AI is making good moves and the 77L are being fully utilised up to core.
Now the 3 remaining 77L will work non stop ultra long haul daily after LAX launch

I think so SFO might be upgraded to 77W but I think it usually needs some payload off..
Or IAD can be 77W In order to free up the plane and do Houston .


I think if AI wants to launch LAX then IAD will have to go 77W. DEL-IAD/ORD both push 77W to its limits, but the restrictions a 77W would have to take on DEL-IAD shouldn't be that bad that AI lose opportunity opening up new routes. In other words, the 77L at IAD is probably not going to last very long.

If AI wants to launch both LAX and a Texas route, they will have to wait until they get their B789s. Let's say LAX starts in October. This would mean 3 77Ls operating DEL-SFO/LAX, with IAD upgagued to 77W. The 77Ls would be working full time for the California routes, and AI won't have an aircraft that can make DEL-Texas nonstop. Above 12000-12100km, the economics of a 77W become very difficult, especially for westbound routes. Flying a 77W DEL-SFO is theoretically possible, but this probably won't have any cargo or meaningful passenger load.
 
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AI126
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:03 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:16 pm

voxkel wrote:
adi00654 wrote:

Yea LAX is already on the cards to launch in October .Good move a weekly thrice flight and increase it on the basis of pax response. AI is making good moves and the 77L are being fully utilised up to core.
Now the 3 remaining 77L will work non stop ultra long haul daily after LAX launch

I think so SFO might be upgraded to 77W but I think it usually needs some payload off..
Or IAD can be 77W In order to free up the plane and do Houston .


I think if AI wants to launch LAX then IAD will have to go 77W. DEL-IAD/ORD both push 77W to its limits, but the restrictions a 77W would have to take on DEL-IAD shouldn't be that bad that AI lose opportunity opening up new routes. In other words, the 77L at IAD is probably not going to last very long.

If AI wants to launch both LAX and a Texas route, they will have to wait until they get their B789s. Let's say LAX starts in October. This would mean 3 77Ls operating DEL-SFO/LAX, with IAD upgagued to 77W. The 77Ls would be working full time for the California routes, and AI won't have an aircraft that can make DEL-Texas nonstop. Above 12000-12100km, the economics of a 77W become very difficult, especially for westbound routes. Flying a 77W DEL-SFO is theoretically possible, but this probably won't have any cargo or meaningful passenger load.


Where is the source for AI ordering/leasing 789s? Last I recall on this topic, they didn't get approval from the board of directors to change the existing 788 order to get 789s. Is AI going on a shopping spree that none of us have heard of? Also, even if they're leasing them, are there that many 789s available for lease? I thought almost all the Dreamliners in the world are taken up already.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:04 pm

AI126 wrote:
Where is the source for AI ordering/leasing 789s? Last I recall on this topic, they didn't get approval from the board of directors to change the existing 788 order to get 789s. Is AI going on a shopping spree that none of us have heard of? Also, even if they're leasing them, are there that many 789s available for lease? I thought almost all the Dreamliners in the world are taken up already.


The 789 would have been a better fit for AI but it wasnt an option when they ordered it. And Boeing wanted a hefty markup when AI tried to switch some of the later deliveries to the -9 model. AI basically wanted the upgrade to be free as compensation for the delays and the grounding snafus but Boeing wouldn't bite.

AI does need around 15 widebody aircraft but will need the Govt to clear the substantial dues it owes AI and b. to underwrite the capital loans for the new acquisitions. The model they are forced by the Govt to adopt right now, taking expensive working loans from PSU banks for aircraft purchases, puts them at a competitive disadvantage. But that is not going to happen. Established lobbies wont allow AI to be set free.

Perhaps Airbus has a chance - AI does have a better working relationship with them overall. 10 x A339 in regional config along with the very urgent need for 20xA320/321 makes for a nice order. The A339 can be used to replace the regional (Gulf & ASEAN) flying - would free up atleast 6 788's for Long Haul, and allow for expansion into Africa plus provide a better product-route mix. The 788 with its lie-flat seat is a waste on many of the regional routes it now flies on. The A320's are very much needed for AI to sustain itself in the domestic/regional market. Right now they are going for expensive leases from Chinese companies for the NEO's to replace the original 14 A320's of 1989 vintage. But they will need more as they seek to replace the A319 fleet in the next 3 years. Someone at Airbus needs to call AI with a deal.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
yycdel
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:14 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:52 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
AI126 wrote:
Where is the source for AI ordering/leasing 789s? Last I recall on this topic, they didn't get approval from the board of directors to change the existing 788 order to get 789s. Is AI going on a shopping spree that none of us have heard of? Also, even if they're leasing them, are there that many 789s available for lease? I thought almost all the Dreamliners in the world are taken up already.


The 789 would have been a better fit for AI but it wasnt an option when they ordered it. And Boeing wanted a hefty markup when AI tried to switch some of the later deliveries to the -9 model. AI basically wanted the upgrade to be free as compensation for the delays and the grounding snafus but Boeing wouldn't bite.

AI does need around 15 widebody aircraft but will need the Govt to clear the substantial dues it owes AI and b. to underwrite the capital loans for the new acquisitions. The model they are forced by the Govt to adopt right now, taking expensive working loans from PSU banks for aircraft purchases, puts them at a competitive disadvantage. But that is not going to happen. Established lobbies wont allow AI to be set free.

Perhaps Airbus has a chance - AI does have a better working relationship with them overall. 10 x A339 in regional config along with the very urgent need for 20xA320/321 makes for a nice order. The A339 can be used to replace the regional (Gulf & ASEAN) flying - would free up atleast 6 788's for Long Haul, and allow for expansion into Africa plus provide a better product-route mix. The 788 with its lie-flat seat is a waste on many of the regional routes it now flies on. The A320's are very much needed for AI to sustain itself in the domestic/regional market. Right now they are going for expensive leases from Chinese companies for the NEO's to replace the original 14 A320's of 1989 vintage. But they will need more as they seek to replace the A319 fleet in the next 3 years. Someone at Airbus needs to call AI with a deal.



Why introduce another fleet type (A330)? Why not just get more B787s
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:55 pm

yycdel wrote:
Why introduce another fleet type (A330)? Why not just get more B787s


If they are available, and for cheap - sure! 787's will be the way to go.

But I think they will have better luck finding A330's on the market at the price they are looking for. Crew Commonality with their large A320 fleet is also a plus. And they have operated the A330's before.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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AI126
Posts: 69
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:46 am

BawliBooch wrote:
yycdel wrote:
Why introduce another fleet type (A330)? Why not just get more B787s


If they are available, and for cheap - sure! 787's will be the way to go.

But I think they will have better luck finding A330's on the market at the price they are looking for. Crew Commonality with their large A320 fleet is also a plus. And they have operated the A330's before.


Even if they get the A330s, though, it wouldn't really open up any longhaul options for them. Can the A338neo even operate DEL-JFK profitably?

AI really needs the B77L, A35LR, or B789 to go through with all their longhaul dreams. The A338 isn't going to cut it.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:59 am

AI126 wrote:
Even if they get the A330s, though, it wouldn't really open up any longhaul options for them. Can the A338neo even operate DEL-JFK profitably?

AI really needs the B77L, A35LR, or B789 to go through with all their longhaul dreams. The A338 isn't going to cut it.


Regional configured A330-300's could replace the 787-8's on Gulf/ASEAN routes (<6 hours) thus freeing up between 6-10 787's which could in turn be used for more Long Hauls to USA & Australia.

Regional A330-300's (24 angle-flat Business + 270 Economy) will be more suited for these shorter routes than a 787 with 18 lie-flat seats.

The A330-300's will be available sooner & much cheaper than any other alternative.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:03 am

Anyone knows the seatmap of AI A320Neo?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 am

BawliBooch wrote:
AI126 wrote:
Even if they get the A330s, though, it wouldn't really open up any longhaul options for them. Can the A338neo even operate DEL-JFK profitably?

AI really needs the B77L, A35LR, or B789 to go through with all their longhaul dreams. The A338 isn't going to cut it.


Regional configured A330-300's could replace the 787-8's on Gulf/ASEAN routes (<6 hours) thus freeing up between 6-10 787's which could in turn be used for more Long Hauls to USA & Australia.

Regional A330-300's (24 angle-flat Business + 270 Economy) will be more suited for these shorter routes than a 787 with 18 lie-flat seats.

The A330-300's will be available sooner & much cheaper than any other alternative.


Of all the Asian/ME carriers with so much brain power, only Saudi saw the virtue of A333R, rest are dumbfounded and now giving some excuses. With a high-density Y and J and operating cost close to a narrow body, lot of carriers should have ordered A333R.
 
VTORD
Posts: 240
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:40 pm

I think AI staff are fed up and sticking it to the government. Recent flight without AC on and now veg only.

Why veg. meals. Sevikas cannot touch meat products?

They should go limited choice Double MRP BoB to give a preview of what is coming.

Every seat and lavs should have coin slots/card readers. Turn on AC only if you put coins and open lav door only after payment.

Dear Leader has a lot of options. EK/QR A319 Exec, EY Apartment, and EK F to name a few. Heard, food and service are much better.than AI1.
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:36 pm

VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/


That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.
 
devmapper
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:55 pm

vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/


That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.


Wasn't the equipment on that route already a narrowbody?
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:23 am

devmapper wrote:
vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/


That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.


Wasn't the equipment on that route already a narrowbody?

It changed between B788, A321 and A320.
 
VTORD
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:46 am

vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/


That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.


Did not think about that but if they are not getting enough O&D to support a 2 x weekly, I have my doubts of their ability to fill a DME - IAH. SQ had a 5 x weekly SIN-DME-IAH which got moved to MAN so probably the market is just not there.
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:07 pm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 543456.cms

Leslie Thng, ex CEO of SilkAir will takeover as UK CEO, and Phee Teik would return.

I find this quite interesting!
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:38 am

VTORD wrote:
vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned earlier: AI ending DME this month.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... july-2017/


That was a surprise; would have made sense to extend the service to IAH.


Did not think about that but if they are not getting enough O&D to support a 2 x weekly, I have my doubts of their ability to fill a DME - IAH. SQ had a 5 x weekly SIN-DME-IAH which got moved to MAN so probably the market is just not there.


Oh that is what I meant; thought there would have been enough DEL-DME traffic. Evidently not!
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:19 am

AI received its 24th B788 last night.
 
killswitch13
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 pm

anshabhi wrote:
AI received its 24th B788 last night.


They are supposed to receive 2 more 787's next month and I guess one in September. Any idea where they would be deployed? News is NBO and FRA from BOM acc to Twitter. Plus one aircraft gets free on 15th of this month with services to DME ending.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:57 am

killswitch13 wrote:
Plus one aircraft gets free on 15th of this month with services to DME ending.


DME cancellation will release an A320SL or NEO.
 
killswitch13
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:38 am

[/quote]
DME cancellation will release an A320SL or NEO.[/quote]

It‘s a Dreamliner that operates currently

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... ir%20india
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:44 am

GoAir's latest aircraft VT-GOT is 10 year old, ex-SU A320 which was stored in March this year. Even its seating configuration was 20J 120 Y.

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a320-3063.htm

Imagine how much pain GoAir is taking because of delayed NEOs..
 
anshabhi
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:56 am

AI Express is doing something not-so-AI!

This is the first time AIE is operating direct flight services to Doha from Kochi.

In the first stage, the airline will launch three direct flight services to Doha from Kochi from August 15 and one more will be launched by September 15. The airline is operating additional flights between Doha, Kochi and Thiruvananthapuram from June 24 to cater to the increased demand on these sectors in the light of the Qatar crisis. 


Can you believe it..? AI Express is jumping in before everyone else- 6E, SG or even QR.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 29305.html
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:15 pm

anshabhi wrote:
AI Express is doing something not-so-AI!

Hain? Whats "not so AI" about AIX operating DOH-COK? AIX has taken over many routes formerly operated by IC and AI, especially the Kerala routes. That was the mandate for setting up AIX. Dramatic rampup of ME3/SEA routes from places other than Kerala - THAT would be not so AIX.

anshabhi wrote:
This is the first time AIE is operating direct flight services to Doha from Kochi.

No it isnt! AIX is/was operating DOH to Kerala (COK, TRV & CCJ) in addition to BOM & IXE.

anshabhi wrote:
Can you believe it..? AI Express is jumping in before everyone else- 6E, SG or even QR.

6E & 9W already operate COK-DOH. 6E and AIX already operate on CCJ-DOH.

Unless the bilaterals have been revised upwards, these 4 additional flights may be coming at the expense of a player on the Indian side - 6E or 9W pulling out.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
 
atal17
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:43 am

BawliBooch wrote:

anshabhi wrote:
This is the first time AIE is operating direct flight services to Doha from Kochi.

No it isnt! AIX is/was operating DOH to Kerala (COK, TRV & CCJ) in addition to BOM & IXE.


I believe he means nonstop when he says direct.

Reminder - for atleast 4 years, IX never operated a nonstop flight between Doha and Kochi or Doha and Thiruvananthapuram. Nor did IC ever operate a nonstop flight between the two cities.

For the record, IX used to operate IX473/474 as Kochi-Kozhikode-Doha-Bahrain-Kozhikode-Kochi. The Kozhikode-Kochi-Kozhikode legs would often get swapped by different aircraft from time to time, so it never was a same plane service.

Then about a year ago, IX delinked the triangle routing and commence a nonstop terminator service between Doha and Kozhikode as IX373/374. Passengers wishing to continue onward to Kochi would have to transfer onto IX473/474 (which is now operated as Bahrain-Kozhikode-Kochi). About six months ago, IX sort of extended the Doha-Kozhikode flight onward to Thiruvananthapuram, to allow Thiruvananthapuram-based pax to transfer onto IX flights from Kozhikode to Kuwait, Bahrain, Riyadh, Ras Al Khaimah and Al Ain.

So yeah - he's technically right.

6E & 9W already operate COK-DOH. 6E and AIX already operate on CCJ-DOH.

Unless the bilaterals have been revised upwards, these 4 additional flights may be coming at the expense of a player on the Indian side - 6E or 9W pulling out.


Demonstrably false.

6E does not operate Kochi-Doha, and it will only commence Kozhikode-Doha on the 20th.

9W flies nonstops to all 3 Kerala cities (daily to Kochi/Kozhikode and thrice a week to Thiruvananthapuram).

There are plenty of bilaterals to go around without any need for withdrawals. Indian carriers are far behind on their share of bilateral deployment.

If we count the seats deployed in the W17 schedule

IX - 7 weekly to Kozhikode, 4 weekly to Kochi, and 3 weekly to Mumbai and Mangalore each = 3,162 seats per week
9W - 14 weekly to Mumbai and Delhi each, 7 weekly to Kozhikode and Kochi each and 3 weekly to Thiruvananthapuram = 7,580 seats per week
6E - 7 weekly to Mumbai, Delhi, Kozhikode and Chennai each = 5,040 seats per week

A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:26 am

atal17 wrote:
I believe he means nonstop when he says direct.

So yeah - he's technically right.

Oh accha! Nuance!

atal17 wrote:
6E does not operate Kochi-Doha, and it will only commence Kozhikode-Doha on the 20th.

9W flies nonstops to all 3 Kerala cities (daily to Kochi/Kozhikode and thrice a week to Thiruvananthapuram).

Yes! Its hardly like AIX is the first on this route.

atal17 wrote:
There are plenty of bilaterals to go around without any need for withdrawals. Indian carriers are far behind on their share of bilateral deployment.

If we count the seats deployed in the W17 schedule

IX - 7 weekly to Kozhikode, 4 weekly to Kochi, and 3 weekly to Mumbai and Mangalore each = 3,162 seats per week
9W - 14 weekly to Mumbai and Delhi each, 7 weekly to Kozhikode and Kochi each and 3 weekly to Thiruvananthapuram = 7,580 seats per week
6E - 7 weekly to Mumbai, Delhi, Kozhikode and Chennai each = 5,040 seats per week

A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want.

Are the bilaterals frequency capped?

PS: I do remember there being an A310 and later A320 service to Doha from COK in the early 2000's. I think the A320 service went on to some 3rd station in the ME.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:54 pm

from atal17's post - "A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want"

Seems like the India / Qatar bilateral is pretty fair. I wonder what percentage of QR's 24.8k seats is used for O&D or do Indian carriers take the O&D crowd and QR takes connecting pax, Qatar based travelers and premium O&D?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:21 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
from atal17's post - "A total of 15,782 seats per week being utilised against an allotment of 24,800. It's fair to say that 6E/9W/IX are free to add as many as flights they want"

Seems like the India / Qatar bilateral is pretty fair. I wonder what percentage of QR's 24.8k seats is used for O&D or do Indian carriers take the O&D crowd and QR takes connecting pax, Qatar based travelers and premium O&D?


Connecting traffic.
Qatar-72%
Abu Dhabi-71%
Dubai-69%
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Connecting traffic.
Qatar-72%
Abu Dhabi-71%
Dubai-69%


Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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AirIndia
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:04 am

BawliBooch wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Connecting traffic.
Qatar-72%
Abu Dhabi-71%
Dubai-69%


Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.

In DXB's case the bilaterals have been exhausted on both sides. Clearly there is a O/D traffic to DXB.
In addition, with Intl pax being siphoned off the O/D market has been captured largely by the Indian LCCs as can be seen with the explosion of DXB routes offered by 6E and SG.
 
audian
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:53 am

Does anyone know if AI's new route to DFW or IAH is still on cards? If so would it be flying to IAH or DFW?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:50 am

AirIndia wrote:
In DXB's case the bilaterals have been exhausted on both sides. Clearly there is a O/D traffic to DXB.
In addition, with Intl pax being siphoned off the O/D market has been captured largely by the Indian LCCs as can be seen with the explosion of DXB routes offered by 6E and SG.


What an argument!!! Indian LCCs are carrying $100 RT traffic to EK/FZ left over slots at DXB. They cannot even get the slots they want. Given an option, Dubai would like them to move to DWC.

No country would complain if ME3 were carrying majority O&D.
 
unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:12 am

BawliBooch wrote:

Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.


Not this argument again. No single carrier 'owns' Indian passengers. ME3 provide cheap fares, convenient timings, and the opportunity to avoid connecting at DEL/BOM. No wonder they have captured the market. Praful Patel is a godsend for Indian VFR travellers.

If Indians can overwhelmingly buy Chinese mobiles, Korean electronics, American software and Japanese cars, why should we insist that they fly on Indian carriers?
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:54 pm

unrave wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.


Not this argument again. No single carrier 'owns' Indian passengers. ME3 provide cheap fares, convenient timings, and the opportunity to avoid connecting at DEL/BOM. No wonder they have captured the market. Praful Patel is a godsend for Indian VFR travellers.

If Indians can overwhelmingly buy Chinese mobiles, Korean electronics, American software and Japanese cars, why should we insist that they fly on Indian carriers?


Those figures just show that the ME3 have been given well in excess of the demand between the two countries. Just means India has been generous and that's it. While no airline owns Indian pax, it is also not everyone's right to fly to India and just dump seats (which seems to be what you argue - let anyone fly to India that wants to). Anyway, at least now the ME3 are frozen in seat grants. So Indian carriers are finally expanding, and pax like you have options to fly all the ME3 you want as well. That said, I can't understand what is wrong in connecting in BOM and DEL. They are relatively small airports with multiple flights to many Indian cities (so less likely to get stuck there on amiss connect). Plus for many pax it's more comfortable to connect in their own country rather than France or Qatar. But to each their own. Good news is which ever side of the coin you fall on, you have the choice. Before the choice was basically only foreign carriers and now its both (and only getting better).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:44 pm

unrave wrote:
...
If Indians can overwhelmingly buy Chinese mobiles, Korean electronics, American software and Japanese cars, why should we insist that they fly on Indian carriers?


In all those cases there are anti-dumping laws and WTO protection. Air services has such protection. AFAIK, Foxconn is manufacturing phones in India, so does Automobile manufacturers and software companies.

With wide body turn around flights, ME3 can load fuel, food and every thing else from their base for RT, no crew layover. All left is garbage and lav waste. Even if they buy food and fuel in India, foreign carriers are exempt from taxes/fees in India. So it is not just a thumb on the scale, it is the whole foot.
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:20 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Praful Patel liberated the harried Indian air traveller from the clutches of Air India. The growth of air travel in general, and from secondary cities in particular, is a testament to the success of Praful Patel's policies.

The only damage he did was to load Air India with a fleet it could not afford and forcing MRO operations to Nagpur. In time, both may yet prove to be positive.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:18 pm

vadodara wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Clear from these figures (if verified), that the bilaterals on the ME routes are far far in excess of actual O&D. And then some. Clearly, Praful Patel screwed Indian aviation in more ways than one.

The ME3 airlines are siphoning off the international traffic leaving the O&D passengers to Indian carriers.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Praful Patel liberated the harried Indian air traveller from the clutches of Air India. The growth of air travel in general, and from secondary cities in particular, is a testament to the success of Praful Patel's policies.

The only damage he did was to load Air India with a fleet it could not afford and forcing MRO operations to Nagpur. In time, both may yet prove to be positive.


Who cares about AI. He hurt the private airlines a lot by stupid rules like the 5 year rule, high ATF taxes and expanding the ME3 bilaterals every time demand started to rise (making it very hard for small airlines to compete). Now look at at EK and Fly dubai. That merger is pro EK but is not in any way pro consumer (especially the UAE based flyer). But hey if its good for Ek, its somehow good for everyone. Does anyone really think PP did what he did out of his concern for India or the Indian consumer? Or were there other motivations? The current govt resisting the ME3 is truely amazing. Let's see what happens. We might get a private AI owned by the TATAs and 9W in a really JV with antitrust immunity with DL/AF/KL. If these two things happen, Indian aviation will be in a firm footing.
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