dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:43 am

Underlying structural issues still exist in Indian aviation sector, AI or not. GoI is just ignoring those issues.

1) Working capital external commercial borrowing restrictions, to protect PSU banks.
2) Lack of strong regulatory regime. ICAO, peer CAAs, Aircraft Manufacturers and suppliers consider DGCA sloppy, ignorant, illiterate bureaucracy. they can get away with anything. Major hurdle if India wants to #3 market. In this age of Lemons spawning out at a high production rate, airlines definitely need some support from DGCA.
3) ATF taxes/surcharges only on Indian registered carriers. Though treaties mandate tax-free for foreign carriers, most countries extend the benefit to local carriers.
4) MRO taxes/duties/surcharges is another headache.

China is able to fight back ME3 because the government offers $1B route subsidies every year six carriers forever. India is not able to average $100M/year.
 
blrsea
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:43 am

Indian carriers do get low taxes on fuel for international operations. Has been that way for a long time to provide a level playing field. But for domestic operations, taxes are way higher. Govts still think air transport is for rich only and have high taxes. ATF should have been brought under GST, so that airlines can claim input credit on taxes paid on them. But due to pressure from states, it has been kept out.

ECBs are allowed up to certain limits across all industries, including airlines. There are some restrictions as it has an impact on external debt, currency reserves, exchange rates etc, so there are some restrictions. Its not unique to airlines though. And airlines are free to tie up with external financiers like any other industry. For e.g., Reliance gets cheap financing from many Chinese banks for their telecom, power projects etc, of course for items produced by Chinese companies.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:56 am

There seems to be some confusion if all international flights get levied lower taxes on ATF(or) only $ purchases. 80% revenue in INR and 80% expenses in USD.

$300M ECB limit (if that number is correct) very restrictive. Small airlines cannot borrow from global financiers and large airlines cannot borrow enough to sustain ops.
 
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AirIndia
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:50 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
AirIndia wrote:
In DXB's case the bilaterals have been exhausted on both sides. Clearly there is a O/D traffic to DXB.
In addition, with Intl pax being siphoned off the O/D market has been captured largely by the Indian LCCs as can be seen with the explosion of DXB routes offered by 6E and SG.


What an argument!!! Indian LCCs are carrying $100 RT traffic to EK/FZ left over slots at DXB. They cannot even get the slots they want. Given an option, Dubai would like them to move to DWC.

No country would complain if ME3 were carrying majority O&D.

The slots issue is recent and is what is holding back enhancement of bilaterals. A proposal that is under discussion: http://aviationnewsbd.com/en/2017/07/15 ... operation/

Also, $100 RT fares between DXB and India are fantasy fares. Even in off peak seasons, the best i have seen are $100 oneway.
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:51 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Who cares about AI. He hurt the private airlines a lot by stupid rules like the 5 year rule, high ATF taxes and expanding the ME3 bilaterals every time demand started to rise (making it very hard for small airlines to compete). Now look at at EK and Fly dubai. That merger is pro EK but is not in any way pro consumer (especially the UAE based flyer). But hey if its good for Ek, its somehow good for everyone.


Looks like you missed my point. I am giving credit to PP for allowing the market to develop, which it has. Please look at the numbers.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Does anyone really think PP did what he did out of his concern for India or the Indian consumer? Or were there other motivations? The current govt resisting the ME3 is truely amazing. Let's see what happens. We might get a private AI owned by the TATAs and 9W in a really JV with antitrust immunity with DL/AF/KL. If these two things happen, Indian aviation will be in a firm footing.


PP (& his benefactor, Sharad Pawar) would hardly be credited of being concerned for anything other than their own interests.

It is OK for the current govt. to resist ME3 'demands'; but not at the cost of developing the Indian aviation market. Obviously, I dont define this as the development of 'Delhi hub/Bombay hub'. But if the policy allows AI to be owned by TATA's and so forth, let it be.
 
unrave
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:04 am

India goes back to 20%+ domestic air traffic growth in June

Domestic air passenger traffic grew 20% in June from a year earlier, continuing the growth trajectory.

Airlines flew 95.8 million passengers in June compared with 79.7 million the year before, data from Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) shows.

Among the major carriers, IndiGo retained the largest market share of 40%, followed by Jet Airways (India) Ltd at 17.5%, SpiceJet Ltd’s 13.3%, Air India’s 13.1%, and GoAir’s 8.4%. AirAsia clocked 3.7% and Vistara 3.6%.


.


http://www.livemint.com/Companies/D4J4v ... -data.html
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4488
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:53 pm

Sad state of Indian Journalism. Apparently AI has 40,000 employees now and 15,000 including contractors will be offered early retirement package.

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... es/768270/
 
CaliguyNYC
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:52 pm

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Who cares about AI. He hurt the private airlines a lot by stupid rules like the 5 year rule, high ATF taxes and expanding the ME3 bilaterals every time demand started to rise (making it very hard for small airlines to compete). Now look at at EK and Fly dubai. That merger is pro EK but is not in any way pro consumer (especially the UAE based flyer). But hey if its good for Ek, its somehow good for everyone.


Looks like you missed my point. I am giving credit to PP for allowing the market to develop, which it has. Please look at the numbers.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Does anyone really think PP did what he did out of his concern for India or the Indian consumer? Or were there other motivations? The current govt resisting the ME3 is truely amazing. Let's see what happens. We might get a private AI owned by the TATAs and 9W in a really JV with antitrust immunity with DL/AF/KL. If these two things happen, Indian aviation will be in a firm footing.


PP (& his benefactor, Sharad Pawar) would hardly be credited of being concerned for anything other than their own interests.

It is OK for the current govt. to resist ME3 'demands'; but not at the cost of developing the Indian aviation market. Obviously, I dont define this as the development of 'Delhi hub/Bombay hub'. But if the policy allows AI to be owned by TATA's and so forth, let it be.


Fair enough. And for the record, I don't care where the first true Indian hub is (personally I think it will be DEL which is not a city I travel to). I just think India should have multiple world class aviation hubs (or at a min ONE global hub). Aviation represents too many jobs and growth of the local and national economy to ignore. From an aviation perspective, I am confused why you even bring up the hub location. Do you feel that if its not the city you want to be a hub then hell with every place else? Or do you feel that India doesn't need a global hub? Or am I missing your point? Just asking...I think India and Brazil (for different reasons) are the two biggest economies without one proper aviation hub.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:25 pm

Philippine Airlines plans India return sometime next year with A321neo.
 
vadodara
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:07 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Fair enough. And for the record, I don't care where the first true Indian hub is (personally I think it will be DEL which is not a city I travel to). I just think India should have multiple world class aviation hubs (or at a min ONE global hub). Aviation represents too many jobs and growth of the local and national economy to ignore. From an aviation perspective, I am confused why you even bring up the hub location. Do you feel that if its not the city you want to be a hub then hell with every place else? Or do you feel that India doesn't need a global hub? Or am I missing your point? Just asking...I think India and Brazil (for different reasons) are the two biggest economies without one proper aviation hub.


Hub to me simply represents an efficient way to pool resources. If AI wants to develop 'DEL', then so be it. But it needs to do so by being efficient, cost effective, and service oriented. How does AI fare on those metrics?

In the meantime, what about the rest of the cities who may not find AI or DEL as the best way to get from point A to point B? That is my simple point.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:07 am

CanadaFair wrote:
Philippine Airlines plans India return sometime next year with A321neo.


DEL or BOM?
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:13 am

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Well if your goal is just to have multiple flights from your city to DOH, then you are right. If the goal is for India to have strong aviation hubs that are connected to major cities in the world, then the ME3 have not helped. Look at what aviation has done for DXB and DOH. They are considered global cities when as recent as the late 80's they were backwaters. Plus if a true hub pops up in DEL or BOM (and then later BLR, HYD, MAA etc), those cities will have better connections to a multitude of Indian cities (so again India wins). Plus aviation is a huge jobs creator. In my mind the goal of Indian aviation should be (1) connect India together, (2) connect India to the world (3) create jobs for Indians and (4) make tourism and business flow INTO India. EK, QR have done a great job of doing this for their own countries. But hey, your town has a double daily to DOH so you're set.


One one hand Indian carriers won't think beyond DEL/BOM for international flights and on the other hand the Indian government will not/ should not allow foreign carriers to operate to smaller cities. What do you propose residents of smaller Indian cities should do? Waste 10 hours connecting in the clusterf**k that is DEL/BOM for a 3 hour flight? Spend a day travelling by road/rail to the nearest metro? Or are you one of those elitists who believe connectivity begins and ends with the five or six metro cities? Developing a true international hub in India is a rosy dream, but (1) we have not done it in 70 years and (2) the country is too huge for a single hub - why should a resident of Kerala trek all the way to DEL to fly to to SYD? so I am not holding out any hope.

ME3 and South East Asian carriers have contributed much more to the cause of air connectivity in India than the national embarrassment ever has. My home airport is one of those small towns that you seem to be so disdainful about; we have one true international connection- 5 weekly to SIN via MI and that is our portal to the world. My own friends and relatives use that for travelling to work across SEA, North Asia, Oceania and the US West Coast. Meanwhile the so called national carrier does not connect it - the 19th busiest airport in the country - to its hub. So pardon me if I don't find substance in your logic that only Indian carriers can provide connectivity to Indians.

The objective of Indian aviation is to develop the infrastructure to facilitate Indians residing all over India to travel both within the country and abroad. The metal on which they fly does not matter one bit. And a country that has actually understood this is Australia.


I'm not a fan of the ME3 and its business practices but it is indisputable IMO that they have made South India more accessible from both the Middle East and the west. This is contributed to the growth of the South Indian economy, particularly Kerala's. At this point while it may be desirable for India to have a global aviation hub of some sort at DEL it would be counter-productive and demeaning quite honestly if those flying from BLR/MAA/HYD/COK/TRV, etc were forced to backtrack via DEL for access to points they can reach more efficiently via the ME3. While national pride and protectionism is not the worst thing in some respects, this particular discussion is patronizing towards South Indians in many ways. I have family in the South and the increased connectivity via the Middle East and Europe has been the determining factor in me traveling more, seeing my family more and spending more money in India. Honestly. IF I had to connect via DEL or BOM I probably wouldn't bother traveling to India. Giving more flexibility in the bilaterals to ME3 carriers is good for India, or at least parts of India.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:22 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
Philippine Airlines plans India return sometime next year with A321neo.


DEL or BOM?

Didn't mention.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:31 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
I'm not a fan of the ME3 and its business practices but it is indisputable IMO that they have made South India more accessible from both the Middle East and the west. This is contributed to the growth of the South Indian economy, particularly Kerala's. At this point while it may be desirable for India to have a global aviation hub of some sort at DEL it would be counter-productive and demeaning quite honestly if those flying from BLR/MAA/HYD/COK/TRV, etc were forced to backtrack via DEL for access to points they can reach more efficiently via the ME3. While national pride and protectionism is not the worst thing in some respects, this particular discussion is patronizing towards South Indians in many ways. I have family in the South and the increased connectivity via the Middle East and Europe has been the determining factor in me traveling more, seeing my family more and spending more money in India. Honestly. IF I had to connect via DEL or BOM I probably wouldn't bother traveling to India. Giving more flexibility in the bilaterals to ME3 carriers is good for India, or at least parts of India.


I believe you are mixing two different issues.

ME3 hubs are no better than DEL/BOM for connections, particularly for Indian PP holders. just ME3 PR presents them as a nightmare. These are no longer dim lit dungeons manned by corrupt officials. These are one of the best airports in the world run by commercial enterprises.

AI connects to 41 Indians cities from DEL - ME3 to 12 Indian cities
AI has nonstops to 5(6 by OCT) US cities. - ME3 to 10 US cities.

AIX hub is in Kerala, they have more nonstops to ME, better than anything offered by ME3.
 
vadodara
Posts: 160
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:31 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
I'm not a fan of the ME3 and its business practices but it is indisputable IMO that they have made South India more accessible from both the Middle East and the west. This is contributed to the growth of the South Indian economy, particularly Kerala's. At this point while it may be desirable for India to have a global aviation hub of some sort at DEL it would be counter-productive and demeaning quite honestly if those flying from BLR/MAA/HYD/COK/TRV, etc were forced to backtrack via DEL for access to points they can reach more efficiently via the ME3. While national pride and protectionism is not the worst thing in some respects, this particular discussion is patronizing towards South Indians in many ways. I have family in the South and the increased connectivity via the Middle East and Europe has been the determining factor in me traveling more, seeing my family more and spending more money in India. Honestly. IF I had to connect via DEL or BOM I probably wouldn't bother traveling to India. Giving more flexibility in the bilaterals to ME3 carriers is good for India, or at least parts of India.


Somehow, that point seems to get lost in the debates here. In fact, that should really be the only point.

Till the ME3 were given unfettered access, India's aviation policy was upside down. Since then, aviation in India has taken off. Well, let the govt. come-up with a rule's based system that is consistent and capable of nurturing new enterprise. In the meantime, let the harried Indian flyer allowed to fly ME3.
 
nrg601
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:36 am

Is there a possibility of a nonstop MAA/BLR/HYD flight to the US, seeing the large amount of H1B workers coming from Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and Telangana? In the US, the Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, Atlanta, Chicago, San Francisco Bay and New Jersey/New York areas have a large community of H1B workers coming from the aformentioned areas of India
 
nmraja
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:24 pm

IX opened booking for IXM-SIN and IXM-DEL

IX684 DEL 1900 - 2215 IXM 2315 - 0615 SIN
IX683 SIN 1040 - 1225 IXM 1325 - 1640 DEL

Many firsts on this. 1st time Non Stop flight between DEL and IXM. 1st time direct flight between SIN and IXM and 1st time IX entering Madurai. :)
Raja.
 
debonair
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AI Crew stays in "haunted" Hotel at ORD

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:25 pm

Sorry if discussed before.

AI Crew members are afraid to sleep alone due to paranormal activities... :ghost:

Any idea about which hotel the crew is complaining? Sounds like Stephen King 's Shining to me...

Quote: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/spoo ... 15616.html
 
michman
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Re: AI Crew stays in "haunted" Hotel at ORD

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:41 pm

Well, a Google search says that the Congress Plaza is Chicago's "most haunted hotel". So maybe that's it --

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/dark-h ... laza-hotel
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annakopsky/i-s ... jm1bY10g9v
Last edited by michman on Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 152
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Re: AI Crew stays in "haunted" Hotel at ORD

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:49 pm

A google search also says Elvis is alive and well, 9/11 was a George Bush Jnr master plan, the earth is flat and Lizards rule the world.
 
michman
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Re: AI Crew stays in "haunted" Hotel at ORD

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:57 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
A google search also says Elvis is alive and well, 9/11 was a George Bush Jnr master plan, the earth is flat and Lizards rule the world.


You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it proves the hotel is actually haunted, but it's pretty clear that there are a number of stories floating around about it. It's not like you get a one-off hit on this. All it takes is for a few AI staff to start reading these stories and then suddenly start hearing ghosts in the night.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 798
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Re: AI Crew stays in "haunted" Hotel at ORD

Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:06 pm

"Holy Shiva!
I'm so afraid of sleeping alone! Get me a stewardess in here immediately!"
That kind of fear?...
 
VTORD
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:35 pm

More news out of Indigo regarding regional ops
https://twitter.com/ari_maj/status/894415345179516929
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
audian
Posts: 159
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:15 pm

There is a news out there saying that EK has initiated talks on opening a new destination in India. Looks like they are planning to start a new service to VGA bi weekly from Dubai.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... awada.html

Does anyone know if VGA can handle wide bodies at this point?
 
VTORD
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:13 pm

audian wrote:
There is a news out there saying that EK has initiated talks on opening a new destination in India. Looks like they are planning to start a new service to VGA bi weekly from Dubai.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... awada.html

Does anyone know if VGA can handle wide bodies at this point?

Isn't the ASA with Dubai maxed out from their side? So a revision in seats would be required for this service?
Also the article seems to have confused Dubai with Abu Dhabi....
"For example, India and Abu Dhabi are each allowed to fly 50,000 seats worth of people and cargo to and from each other’s territory per week.
Abu Dhabi has access to nine Indian cities as of now. According to the officer, the number of cities may be increased at a later stage."
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:38 pm

There is a lot of confusion about VGA international ops. Code E runway construction started, but unclear when it will be ready. Rumors range from few months to two years. There are also reports of AUH being displayed on terminals, may be some testing going on. My 2 cents is on 9W B737 to AUH as it needs to change to BASA. EY is restricted to 9 stations and EY to VGA needs an amendment.
 
audian
Posts: 159
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is a lot of confusion about VGA international ops. Code E runway construction started, but unclear when it will be ready. Rumors range from few months to two years. There are also reports of AUH being displayed on terminals, may be some testing going on. My 2 cents is on 9W B737 to AUH as it needs to change to BASA. EY is restricted to 9 stations and EY to VGA needs an amendment.


As you quoted, EY or 9W can use their narrow bodies to VGA. That make sense. If AI can add couple of more US destinations then it can capture most of the US bound traffic with its one stop connections through DEL.
 
VTORD
Posts: 236
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
My 2 cents is on 9W B737 to AUH as it needs to change to BASA. EY is restricted to 9 stations and EY to VGA needs an amendment.

Makes sense. The journo probably typed in Emirates in place of Etihad at the beginning of that piece....
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
vadodara
Posts: 160
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:35 am

It is very surprising that EY hasnt leveraged the Jet deal even more especially with lack of narrow-bodies for EK. If I recall, they also have additional route allocations available.
 
 
zubin
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:29 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:28 am

Economic Survey calls for liberalising flying abroad rules for airlines:

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... 471870.ece
 
blrsea
Posts: 1608
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:52 am

Jet is planning on removing First class from its 777s. Appears that they have very little occupancy on flights other than London. Should have done this earlier itself. Also, if it cannot get good load factors on F from hubs in DEL and BOM, shows the poor appeal of F in India. Better to go for only C/Y. Not sure whether Y+ will also work in India.

Jet Airways may stop first class in Boeing 777

Jet Airways may remove the eight first-class seats and instead add economy and business class seats in its wide-body Boeing planes.
.
Also, the first class is not a money spinner for the airline. In fact, barring the London route, loads in the section are poor.
.
 
sand26391
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 am

Malindo to start KUL-BLR sector by Oct End or November.
 
VTORD
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:01 pm

blrsea wrote:
Jet is planning on removing First class from its 777s. Appears that they have very little occupancy on flights other than London. Should have done this earlier itself. Also, if it cannot get good load factors on F from hubs in DEL and BOM, shows the poor appeal of F in India. Better to go for only C/Y. Not sure whether Y+ will also work in India.

So should AI....can't see them filling F up either.
Does removing F and replacing with Y significantly help an aircraft's capability to fly longer distance?
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
vadodara
Posts: 160
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:27 pm

blrsea wrote:
Jet is planning on removing First class from its 777s. Appears that they have very little occupancy on flights other than London. Should have done this earlier itself. Also, if it cannot get good load factors on F from hubs in DEL and BOM, shows the poor appeal of F in India. Better to go for only C/Y. Not sure whether Y+ will also work in India.

Jet Airways may stop first class in Boeing 777

Jet Airways may remove the eight first-class seats and instead add economy and business class seats in its wide-body Boeing planes.
.
Also, the first class is not a money spinner for the airline. In fact, barring the London route, loads in the section are poor.
.


How many years of Indigo's success did this dawn upon the management? Seems like India is a great market if the product is offered at the right prices. Doesnt seem like Indians give 2 hoots about flying out of Delhi/Bombay hub.

In addition, the growth seems to be comming from AMS connection; might learn the lesson and fund where the growth is.
 
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Slash787
Posts: 29
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Re: India Aviation Thread - 2017

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 am

Any idea when is Jet planning to take the deliveries of the B787-9

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