dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:26 am

RCS is a failure and will remain a failure like all other "successful" programs launched by dear leader.

Two possible reasons why 6E jumped into TP segment.
1) A320 is too big for some routes.
2) Ward off Qatar's entry into India.

MX is not a problem for 6E because it doesn't do MX. Lessors/vendors get paid only for completed segments, they will jump over all the hoops to make it work. PW will swap as many engines as needed within six hours.
 
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sq421
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:05 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
sq421 wrote:
Also, not to forget that some of the regional ATR routes will be subsided.


Not all routes are "subsided". Specific routes alloted using a bidding system are entitled to a subsidy. Our team is working on uncovering a scam in the allotment of these RCS routes. Coming soon! :)

unrave wrote:
India's most profitable airline over the last decade surely has to be doing something different than an airline that did not have a single profitable quarter?


Indigo has only released its financial reports since 2014 or so. Everything before that was media spin. Repeated queries for audited results used to get us the "We are not a listed company and dont have to furnish those results" line. Many of us who saw Indigo rise found it hard to make sense of their success: the numbers just didnt add up. Something was amiss. It all seemed like KF all over again.

For the first few years, KF was called profitable too by the same media-pundits. The PR team, core operations and even the bunch of fawning journos writing paeans are the same. Hence KF part-deux. As we call it in India, its Deja-Chu! :P

Part of what has come to mean the LCC rulebook is single-type fleet, no loyalty program and so on. Indigo has broken both these rules the past month. Moving to a 320-ATR mixed fleet and introducing a loyalty program. Let's see how long they last.



That's what I said mate... "some" routes. I'd be gladly waiting to see if you can uncover some scams in the "dear leader's" scheme.
 
IranianMan123
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:01 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
I guess it means the deal will be signed at the Paris air show later this week.

ATRs doing well at the moment. 90 aircraft orders from IndiGo and Iran Air. Excellent news for the manufacturer
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:38 pm

sq421 wrote:
That's what I said mate... "some" routes. I'd be gladly waiting to see if you can uncover some scams in the "dear leader's" scheme.


Its not "Dear Leaders" scheme. Its just another 2012 era UPA project given a once over and a new name UDAN. One change has been the complete transformation in the program mandate. The original 2012 idea was to subsidise only marginal routes which have no commercial air service and operated with <30 seater aircraft. Air India would perforce have to do much of the heavy lifting but private players like Capt Gopinath (of Air Deccan) and others aimed to get into the game as well. That has now changed. Many of the routes where subsidy is being handed out are routes that have already been operational! And from the original idea of subsidy being restricted to a max of 50% of capacity subject to a maximum of 17 seats has been completely done away with. And lastly, multiple flights/day will also be entitled to subsidy! Beats the point.

I find some things very suspicious. Indigo announces acquisition of ATR's just as 9W announces an end to its ATR ops? What is it that we are missing?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:41 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Part of what has come to mean the LCC rulebook is single-type fleet, no loyalty program and so on. Indigo has broken both these rules the past month. Moving to a 320-ATR mixed fleet and introducing a loyalty program. Let's see how long they last.


What loyalty program?
Vahroone
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:45 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
What loyalty program?


Word is they are looking to launch a quasi-loyalty programme. Some kind of e-Voucher thing at first. Details awaited.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:58 pm

Once 6E enters a market every other airline is just a training center.
 
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sq421
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:15 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
sq421 wrote:
That's what I said mate... "some" routes. I'd be gladly waiting to see if you can uncover some scams in the "dear leader's" scheme.


Its not "Dear Leaders" scheme. Its just another 2012 era UPA project given a once over and a new name UDAN. One change has been the complete transformation in the program mandate. The original 2012 idea was to subsidise only marginal routes which have no commercial air service and operated with <30 seater aircraft. Air India would perforce have to do much of the heavy lifting but private players like Capt Gopinath (of Air Deccan) and others aimed to get into the game as well. That has now changed. Many of the routes where subsidy is being handed out are routes that have already been operational! And from the original idea of subsidy being restricted to a max of 50% of capacity subject to a maximum of 17 seats has been completely done away with. And lastly, multiple flights/day will also be entitled to subsidy! Beats the point.

I find some things very suspicious. Indigo announces acquisition of ATR's just as 9W announces an end to its ATR ops? What is it that we are missing?


Oh wow!!! Didn't know that it's a rehash of a UPA scheme. Though not surprised. And come to think of it. definitely smells funny with the way it's been restructured to possibly favour some airlines.
I was also wondering how much of the surcharges collected on normal routes will actually subsidise the UDAN routes and how much will line the pockets and/or go to the treasury.

The 50 aircraft order from 6E definitely smells funny.
 
vadodara
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:08 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Indigo has only released its financial reports since 2014 or so. Everything before that was media spin. Repeated queries for audited results used to get us the "We are not a listed company and dont have to furnish those results" line. Many of us who saw Indigo rise found it hard to make sense of their success: the numbers just didnt add up. Something was amiss. It all seemed like KF all over again.


Why? As they said, they are not a listed company and dont have to furnish any details. If you are serious, perhaps poke their sources of funding. And the likes of Jet Airways as well. There will be many people interested here.

BawliBooch wrote:
Part of what has come to mean the LCC rulebook is single-type fleet, no loyalty program and so on. Indigo has broken both these rules the past month. Moving to a 320-ATR mixed fleet and introducing a loyalty program. Let's see how long they last.


Alaska air has been in existence for a very long time. They have a 737X, E170 and a Q400 fleet mix. They are also extremely profitable.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:23 am

c933103 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
The article mentions that Indigo wants to start ATR72 ops while Jet is dropping theirs due to difficulties with staffing the planes and high maintenance costs. Indigo might face the same challenges with a fleet three times larger than Jet's.


Perhaps. But the ATR72 outsells the Q400 by a huge margin, so it seems most airlines find the lower operating costs more important than the maintenance costs.

huge margin? less than 100%...


I didn't claim 100%. ATR dominates the turboprop sales, I call that a huge margin.

Image
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
c933103
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:37 am

KarelXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:

Perhaps. But the ATR72 outsells the Q400 by a huge margin, so it seems most airlines find the lower operating costs more important than the maintenance costs.

huge margin? less than 100%...


I didn't claim 100%. ATR dominates the turboprop sales, I call that a huge margin.

Image

It is 2010-2015.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:38 am

c933103 wrote:
It is 2010-2015.


The story was not different in 2016, and 2017 hasn't ended yet.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
c933103
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:45 am

KarelXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It is 2010-2015.


The story was not different in 2016, and 2017 hasn't ended yet.

I am not too familiar with order history of both aircrafts, but abritarily choosing 2010 as start year and 2015 as end year seems to be a convenient way to manipulate numbers toward ATR
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:48 am

c933103 wrote:
I am not too familiar with order history of both aircrafts, but abritarily choosing 2010 as start year and 2015 as end year seems to be a convenient way to manipulate numbers toward ATR


It shows a trend. ATR outsells Bombardier by a large margin, year after year. It happened in 2016 as well. That means something will have to happen at Bombardier because the Q400 backlog becomes very thin.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
c933103
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:12 am

btw, do we have any count on is there any or how many ATR/Q400 being stored?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:16 am

It boils down to per trip cost vs per seat cost. Bigger is always not better and passengers would never pay additional dollars for comfort. ATR by far is a cheaper aircraft to operate. Being regional frames, both may have gaps in their world wide mx network, making one better over other in a particular region of the world.

There was a blog claiming ATR76 trip can breakeven with just 25 revenue passengers. This may be a factor Indian carriers still trying to make ATR76 work in place of a B1900D or Do228.

Indian startups failed because they took aged ATR frames with major issues on dry lease.

It is a shame HAL cannot get their act together to get Do228 certified and mass produced. At least Air Deccan picked the right size aircraft for RCS, PZL M28 Skytruck, but not sure how economical or reliable it is.
 
c933103
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:45 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
It boils down to per trip cost vs per seat cost. Bigger is always not better and passengers would never pay additional dollars for comfort. ATR by far is a cheaper aircraft to operate. Being regional frames, both may have gaps in their world wide mx network, making one better over other in a particular region of the world.

There was a blog claiming ATR76 trip can breakeven with just 25 revenue passengers. This may be a factor Indian carriers still trying to make ATR76 work in place of a B1900D or Do228.

Indian startups failed because they took aged ATR frames with major issues on dry lease.

It is a shame HAL cannot get their act together to get Do228 certified and mass produced. At least Air Deccan picked the right size aircraft for RCS, PZL M28 Skytruck, but not sure how economical or reliable it is.

Not sure about blogs, but according to this ATR promotional material http://www.atraircraft.com/datas/downlo ... 007_30.pdf ,ATR72 operational cost in European environment would be 1500USD compare to 1800 for Q400 which is a 22% delta. Note that this is an ATR material with assumption most likely skewed favoring toward ATR, for instance a fuel price much higher than current market environment and only little discount and a high interest rate than real life which are all less favorable toQ400 than ATR, but if you consider ATR72 to be able to breakeven with 25 passenger, then that would mean US$60 average ticket price for the scenario ATR used to calculate, and using this ATR figure the Q400 would still be able to breakeven with only 30 passenger, and remember that is ATR data and scenario, which mean in real life situation the Q400 is most probably going to be more economical than that

As for B1900D and Do228, I don't think they would be affected by 70-seater props. Afterall they are 19-seater aircraft, and are thus suitable on routes that have a demand less than that. So even if those larger aircraft can breakeven at 25 passengers, it would still too large and too expensive for routes that Do228 would be suitable
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:17 pm

c933103 wrote:
...So even if those larger aircraft can breakeven at 25 passengers, it would still too large and too expensive for routes that Do228 would be suitable


True if it is a pure commercial decision, but when government is subsidizing up to 38 seats, airline may consider to push an ATR76 in place of a Do228.

Interestingly, none of the Indian private carriers are paying RCS surcharge, but ready to milk the RCS fund.
 
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Polot
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:38 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I am not too familiar with order history of both aircrafts, but abritarily choosing 2010 as start year and 2015 as end year seems to be a convenient way to manipulate numbers toward ATR


It shows a trend. ATR outsells Bombardier by a large margin, year after year. It happened in 2016 as well. That means something will have to happen at Bombardier because the Q400 backlog becomes very thin.

Its good for the turboprop trend, however I wouldn't read too much into the 50-90 regional aircraft trend as the timeline conveniently excludes a lot of regional jets ordered last decade.
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:10 am

In a recent press release, ATR counts IndiGo orders as firm orders.

http://www.atraircraft.com/newsroom/pre ... 53-en.html

Let's get this rolling!

What do you think would be IndiGo's first ATR route??
 
unrave
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:43 am

BLR-CJB (hopefully)
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:15 am

I want something out of Mangalore. Hyderabad or Goa to Mangalore would be very helpful, along with Delhi flights from the new Adampur (Jalandhar) airport.
 
Aieron
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:03 am

anshabhi wrote:
I want something out of Mangalore. Hyderabad or Goa to Mangalore would be very helpful, along with Delhi flights from the new Adampur (Jalandhar) airport.


Are you from Mangalore ? well spicejet isnt having much success on ixe hyd route , i remember kingfisher used to operate a flight from mangalore to goa .
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:34 am

Aieron wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I want something out of Mangalore. Hyderabad or Goa to Mangalore would be very helpful, along with Delhi flights from the new Adampur (Jalandhar) airport.


Are you from Mangalore ? well spicejet isnt having much success on ixe hyd route , i remember kingfisher used to operate a flight from mangalore to goa .


I am from India! Am relocating to Manipal (near IXE) for a few years.. If you see, IXE-HYD fares, on any day are more than IXE-BOM...
The best thing that I would like is more IXE-DEL nonstops...
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:17 pm

The team has expressed interest in launching services in the Tiruchi – Chennai and Tiruchi – Bengaluru sectors, Airport Director, Tiruchi K. Gunasekaran told The Hindu after the meeting.
First news report on 6E's possible ATR route.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 208167.ece
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:24 pm

Update:

Now a brief update on our planned turboprop operations. During our last call, we announced our order of up to 50 ATR 72-600 aircraft. Documentation work with the aircraft and engine manufacturers continues towards finalization of the purchase agreements and currently our plan is to launch commercial operations by the end of this calendar year.


https://www.goindigo.in/content/dam/goi ... 1-FY18.pdf
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
anshabhi
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:39 pm

IndiGo initially plans to operate 170 flights a day, from 13 smaller cities: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 52171.html
 
vadodara
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Re: IndiGo to purchase 50 ATR72-600s, eyes regional market

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:38 am

Lot of these cities are ripe for picking for a low-cost provider. This should do wonders for tourism.

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