Just flew into and out of MSP for the first time in a long time and it got me wondering what the future lies for this airport, which has remained a key element in the Delta Air Lines network since the DL/NW merger. Believe MSP is Delta's third largest hub with around 420-440 daily departures (with ATL and DTW being #1 and #2).

Curious whether future international expansion is possible or likely (DL and other airlines) and what the biggest projects on the horizon are for the airport.

MSP offers some great connectivity for both Europe and Asia. You can see that just glancing at a time table. MSP also seems to have a good role as a connecting airport into Western Canada. I live in Chicago, and I am often routed to Europe via MSP.



Also, I believe, part of the reason to keep MSP is the 'agreement' to keep jobs in MSP. That certainly doesn't hurt the airport.

I've always seen MSP as part of DL's counter against UA's DEN and AA's DFW. Not good enough on its own, but together with SLC they get the job done.

davescj wrote:

Also, I believe, part of the reason to keep MSP is the 'agreement' to keep jobs in MSP. That certainly doesn't hurt the airport.

I'm not sure what agreement you may be alluding to. A circa-1992 financing agreement between the state and Northwest came to be modified with the acquisition by Delta.

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/ ... deal_N.htm

Then, in 2011, Delta prepaid the lease obligations, which ended the flight count and job count mandates, anyway.

On October 26, 2011, Delta prepaid all of the lease payments due under the General Obligation
Revenue Bond (Series 15) Series 15 lease agreements by depositing $175,049,336 with the
Commission. On October 26, 2011, the Commission irrevocably deposited the $175,049,336
received from Delta, along with $52,500,000 on deposit in the Series 15 Bond Account of the
Commission’s debt service fund, to the Series 15 Escrow Fund. The amounts deposited to the
Series 15 Escrow Fund will be used on January 1, 2012 to: (a) pay the principal of the Series 15
bonds maturing on January 1, 2012, (b) redeem all of the outstanding Series 15 bonds maturing
after January 1, 2012 at a redemption price of 103% of principal thereof, and (c) pay the interest
due on such date on all outstanding Series 15 bonds.

https://metroairports.org/Metroairports ... 1_cafr.pdf

DTW and MSP have been very close at #2 and #3 for a while - close enough that it depends on whether one looks at departures, seats, ASMs, RPMs, time of year and day of week.

Don't forget how upgauging - 160-seat MD-90s replacing ~65 DC-9s transferred at time of merger, CR9s replacing CR2s, more seats on 757s - has changed departure counts since Oct. 2008.

While I think MSP will remain significant hub for DL, I can easily see it losing its few remaining long haul/Int'l routes.

With the new focus on SEA as the Asian gateway (shifted from NRT), its hard to see why DL wouldn't just decide to shift all NRT bound traffic thru SEA. DTW already has the China routes, so unless something dramatic were to happen there, I imagine it would maintain and grow that role; hard to see MSP ever getting any new transpacific routes; I think it already lost its seasonal HNL flight.

The 3 remaining European routes (AMS/CDG/LHR) probably stay for now, but they are flown by aging A330's which (I perceive) are slated for replacement, and its unclear if the the replacements are configured with MSP service in mind? Its pretty clear that this traffic could be serviced from DTW/ATL if a change in capacity, frequency or timings were desirable.

If MSP were to lose these 4 routes, its hard to imagine there wouldn't be an accompanying shrinkage in domestic routes without need to feed these long-hauls.

On a positive note, DL does maintain a significant maintenance facility and depot in MSP, so there remains some incentive to keep the large footprint.

Longshot - the KE JV brings a KE flight to MSP? (seems unlikely, but still, one can hope). Maybe MSP - ICN is a better dream.

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

drgreendds wrote:

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

You're kidding right?
MN's business environment (and economy) has always been strong and is stronger than ever. there's a reason why cost of living (in the Metro) is high, and that is due to high employment and income, not taxation. Just in case you want another perspective, here's a couple.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/12/americas ... nking.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-u ... #8-idaho-8

MN as never been a "destination" in the world of Aviation - not in the glory days of Northwest, and not now. It had a large hometown airline, a hub, a well developed Pacific presence, which it leveraged into a "transfer point". Consolidation and changing global aviation conspire to eliminate it as a high profile one, that's it. Taxes or business are virtually unrelated.

drgreendds wrote:

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

Almost none of what you've just stated is true, where are you getting these "facts" from? In spite of what you've said above MSP remains one of the largest hubs in the US and has a very healthy mix of O&D and connecting travelers. Minnesota also continues to have one of the highest percentages of Fortune 500 and 1000 headquarters per capita. Clearly businesses don't agree with your assertion.

Jeremy

FlyHappy wrote:

While I think MSP will remain significant hub for DL, I can easily see it losing its few remaining long haul/Int'l routes.

With the new focus on SEA as the Asian gateway (shifted from NRT), its hard to see why DL wouldn't just decide to shift all NRT bound traffic thru SEA. DTW already has the China routes, so unless something dramatic were to happen there, I imagine it would maintain and grow that role; hard to see MSP ever getting any new transpacific routes; I think it already lost its seasonal HNL flight.

The 3 remaining European routes (AMS/CDG/LHR) probably stay for now, but they are flown by aging A330's which (I perceive) are slated for replacement, and its unclear if the the replacements are configured with MSP service in mind? Its pretty clear that this traffic could be serviced from DTW/ATL if a change in capacity, frequency or timings were desirable.

If MSP were to lose these 4 routes, its hard to imagine there wouldn't be an accompanying shrinkage in domestic routes without need to feed these long-hauls.

On a positive note, DL does maintain a significant maintenance facility and depot in MSP, so there remains some incentive to keep the large footprint.

Longshot - the KE JV brings a KE flight to MSP? (seems unlikely, but still, one can hope). Maybe MSP - ICN is a better dream.

I'm pretty sure Delta aren't thinking of replacing the A330s as the oldest is only 14.4 years old.They are currently focusing on replacing some older 763s with newer aircraft and mainly the 744s are to be replaced first before any A330s are to.

MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam

TheGeordielad wrote:

I'm pretty sure Delta aren't thinking of replacing the A330s as the oldest is only 14.4 years old.They are currently focusing on replacing some older 763s with newer aircraft and mainly the 744s are to be replaced first before any A330s are to.

I wasn't aware of the specific age of the A330, thanks. Still, those 7 744's are nearly gone, slated for year end retirement, and with DL deferring acceptance of new widebodies, might that not mean that MSP based A330's could be shifted to other hubs (elminating MSP based long haul routes) to partially fill in for retiring 744 / 763 ? That's something that occurs to me.

FlyHappy wrote:

TheGeordielad wrote:

I'm pretty sure Delta aren't thinking of replacing the A330s as the oldest is only 14.4 years old.They are currently focusing on replacing some older 763s with newer aircraft and mainly the 744s are to be replaced first before any A330s are to.

I wasn't aware of the specific age of the A330, thanks. Still, those 7 744's are nearly gone, slated for year end retirement, and with DL deferring acceptance of new widebodies, might that not mean that MSP based A330's could be shifted to other hubs (elminating MSP based long haul routes) to partially fill in for retiring 744 / 763 ? That's something that occurs to me.

Why would they eliminate those long haul routes? The European ones are all to JV partner hubs. The relationship between KLM and Northwest dates back a long way, and there's a ton of traffic between MSP and AMS for that reason. This seems like a completely absurd speculation.

davescj wrote:

MSP offers some great connectivity for both Europe and Asia. You can see that just glancing at a time table. MSP also seems to have a good role as a connecting airport into Western Canada. I live in Chicago, and I am often routed to Europe via MSP.



Also, I believe, part of the reason to keep MSP is the 'agreement' to keep jobs in MSP. That certainly doesn't hurt the airport.

If you are in ORD the first choice for a DL flight should be KLM tp AMS or AF to CDG second
then third would be a connection VIA DTW not MSP- MSP would be what they call backtracking and not in the max miles allowed for a ORD-Europe flight Only time that a backtrack is allowed if for east coast to DTW not MSP then to Europe unless you have a F I M allowance rule in the fare rules the fares I chose on NWA always offered me a big time backtrack to MSP so I can get the MSP-JFK DC-9 flight with a full meal in First class . I would say that its odd that they would route you to MSP .
Surprised that they did not offer dirt cheap connections in ATL to boost ATL #'s.

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

My vague understanding is that Delta does very well as an airline, and seems to be keeping fairly heavy gauge at MSP, which IIRC is their second largest hub airport by seat count this summer.

The fact DL makes money at a company level and keeps capacity higher in MSP suggests that MSP has a greater profit margin than Delta does as a whole. This makes MSP a ravishing jewel of an airport. Or maybe I am wrong about that.

In terms of regional economy, I don't see MSP as very dynamic, it is just a typical midwestern city now. Des Moines on a larger scale (which ain't bad). It's maintaining.

My only beef--and it's a perception not backed up by me looking at a station map--is that there's an inordinate amount of walking involved in changing flights at MSP. Even with the tramway. I like SLC better in that regard.

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.

As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

NYCVIE wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.

As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

He's a troll, to put it mildly. An anti-Delta bring back Northworst troll.

drgreendds wrote:

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

Quite the opposite. Minneapolis-St Paul has the highest per capita fortune 500 headquarters in the US outside of NYC. MSP is usually around top 5 in the US for household income. It's a very wealthy metro area with a strong business community. That to me is why MSP remains valuable. The O&D from MSP is extremely profitable for Delta. There has been growth in the CDG and AMS routes for years now. DL isn't just doing that for fun. It's a reflection of the continued growth in the area.

Flighty wrote:

by Flighty » 13 May 2017 16:16
My vague understanding is that Delta does very well as an airline, and seems to be keeping fairly heavy gauge at MSP, which IIRC is their second largest hub airport by seat count this summer.

The fact DL makes money at a company level and keeps capacity higher in MSP suggests that MSP has a greater profit margin than Delta does as a whole. This makes MSP a ravishing jewel of an airport. Or maybe I am wrong about that.

In terms of regional economy, I don't see MSP as very dynamic, it is just a typical midwestern city now. Des Moines on a larger scale (which ain't bad). It's maintaining.

MSP's economy is incredibly dynamic. Look at the company's headquartered there. There's strong retail (Target, Best Buy), strong agricultural/food headquarters, manufacturing, financial services (third largest after NYC and SFO), and is the largest concentration of medical device manufacturers in the world (as well as UnitedHealthGroup). MSP's economy is one of the strongest in the US (as is Minnesota's). I realize everyone likes to lump the midwest together but MSP is a huge exception in terms of growth and economic strength. This is why the airport has retained its position. The economy is just that strong.

Just to temper my own DL pessimism, I believe that if DL were to eliminate most or all of the remaining 4 long haul flights, one or more European LCC's might consider services to MSP, directly or using narrowbodies via Iceland....

Keep in mind, the MSP metro is a bit bigger than people realize, fully double the size of SLC, 25% larger than DEN, bigger than Charlotte.....all of which are hubs for major airlines....We also fly an inordinate amount due to weather escape travel and the sheer distance to our nearest MSA. The nearest large city in Chicago and its 400 miles away, Kansas City is 350, flying thus takes on a greater important. DEN is very similar.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.
As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

He's a troll, to put it mildly. An anti-Delta bring back Northworst troll.

Joined two weeks ago... I am wondering if that might be klm617's alterego..."Anthony? Is that you?"

NYCVIE wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.

As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

I saw somewhere where DL moved CDG from DTW to MSP
well After looking at DL .com I see you are right wonder why DL said that in the first place huh?
Well According to Richard Anderson MEM was not going to close and Douglass Steenland said the same too want the Youtube video for proof?
By the way the 340 from AF operates about 20 minutes faster than the DL 330 LOL

ILUVDC10S wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.

As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

I saw somewhere where DL moved CDG from DTW to MSP
well After looking at DL .com I see you are right wonder why DL said that in the first place huh?
Well According to Richard Anderson MEM was not going to close and Douglass Steenland said the same too want the Youtube video for proof?
By the way the 340 from AF operates about 20 minutes faster than the DL 330 LOL

1. Where did you read that? I never didn't find any DL press releases on it, and having flown DL 99 for a good 4 years, have never heard any news of the frequency shifting to MSP.
2. MEM closed based on its proximity to ATL and rising fuel prices back then. Northwest managed to make money on Memphis because it was one of their only connections to the Southern US, but 6 years later Delta found themselves unable to because there was too much route overlap between MEM and ATL, the same reason why the merger with AWE fell through. DTW and MSP only really had competition with CVG as their nearest hub, and with CVG's downsizing means they will most likely stay as the Midwest link in DL's network.


MSP is, as its location suggests, much more suited for the Midwest US, as well as Central and Western Canada. As an East Coaster, I have an equal connection opportunity between ATL, MSP, and DTW when a nonstop isn't available. Out near airports like MCI and STL, it seems MSP and ATL are the more favourable options. With a stronger emphasis on the central US (and with DTW and ATL having less connections to the centre of the US), it seems most likely that MSP would go the direction of SEA on a smaller scale, with 1-2 key Asian routes to Tier 1 cities, and with connections to major European hubs. MSP already serves its key market well, and it seems that it will take the direction of other non-ATL hubs with an emphasis on regional connections, followed by key international routes. The only things I predict from MSP now are a possible route from MSP-ICN to serve deep Asia, a possible opening of MSP-FCO or the like seasonally like Delta has done with DTW-FCO, and the opening of a 5th Caribou because 4 is not enough.

blockski wrote:

Why would they eliminate those long haul routes? The European ones are all to JV partner hubs. The relationship between KLM and Northwest dates back a long way, and there's a ton of traffic between MSP and AMS for that reason. This seems like a completely absurd speculation.

You understand that I really mean shifting of those routes and capacity to other gateway airports, not any capacity reduction overall to those JV hubs. I'm just observing the slow erosion of long haul from MSP and putting together the changing face of long haul travel, along with new efficiencies with fleet renewal, etc.

The elimination of NRT as an Asian hub does pose the question of the continued value of MSP - NRT if SEA is to be built up, and how KE JV will alter things. I am less familiar with the 3 European routes (though I've flown one or two), but similarly wonder if DL might see better use of fewer widebody aircraft to those destinations from DTW/ATL, etc.

N644US wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

NYCVIE wrote:

LOL what are you even talking about? DTW has flights to CDG on both DL AND AF.

As has been mentioned before, MSP and DTW are some of the largest hubs in the DL system so there's really no reason (or indication they will) to get rid of these hubs. MEM was a low O&D base that was extremely redundant due to ATL and thats why it was closed, not to get rid of NW's footprint. Anyways, why should there be things that the customer sees with an NW logo on it? NW is long gone and this happens in every merger.

I saw somewhere where DL moved CDG from DTW to MSP
well After looking at DL .com I see you are right wonder why DL said that in the first place huh?
Well According to Richard Anderson MEM was not going to close and Douglass Steenland said the same too want the Youtube video for proof?
By the way the 340 from AF operates about 20 minutes faster than the DL 330 LOL

1. Where did you read that? I never didn't find any DL press releases on it, and having flown DL 99 for a good 4 years, have never heard any news of the frequency shifting to MSP.
2. MEM closed based on its proximity to ATL and rising fuel prices back then. Northwest managed to make money on Memphis because it was one of their only connections to the Southern US, but 6 years later Delta found themselves unable to because there was too much route overlap between MEM and ATL, the same reason why the merger with AWE fell through. DTW and MSP only really had competition with CVG as their nearest hub, and with CVG's downsizing means they will most likely stay as the Midwest link in DL's network.


MSP is, as its location suggests, much more suited for the Midwest US, as well as Central and Western Canada. As an East Coaster, I have an equal connection opportunity between ATL, MSP, and DTW when a nonstop isn't available. Out near airports like MCI and STL, it seems MSP and ATL are the more favourable options. With a stronger emphasis on the central US (and with DTW and ATL having less connections to the centre of the US), it seems most likely that MSP would go the direction of SEA on a smaller scale, with 1-2 key Asian routes to Tier 1 cities, and with connections to major European hubs. MSP already serves its key market well, and it seems that it will take the direction of other non-ATL hubs with an emphasis on regional connections, followed by key international routes. The only things I predict from MSP now are a possible route from MSP-ICN to serve deep Asia, a possible opening of MSP-FCO or the like seasonally like Delta has done with DTW-FCO, and the opening of a 5th Caribou because 4 is not enough.

Yet Anderson & Steenland said MEM would NOT close again want the video ?

And I know if you look at the airfares DL is going to lower the fare for ATL to boost its numbers in ATL . And have MSP & DTW fares be higher oh and the ATL connections are usually shown BEFORE DTW & MSP connections too.

FlyHappy wrote:

You understand that I really mean shifting of those routes and capacity to other gateway airports, not any capacity reduction overall to those JV hubs. I'm just observing the slow erosion of long haul from MSP and putting together the changing face of long haul travel, along with new efficiencies with fleet renewal, etc.

The elimination of NRT as an Asian hub does pose the question of the continued value of MSP - NRT if SEA is to be built up, and how KE JV will alter things. I am less familiar with the 3 European routes (though I've flown one or two), but similarly wonder if DL might see better use of fewer widebody aircraft to those destinations from DTW/ATL, etc.

What erosion of long haul from MSP? I have only heard of things being added. If you want to go back far enough, sure I think NW operated MSP-OSL for awhile but what long haul flights are you referring to?

And I am pretty sure that the MSP flight to Asia goes to HND for O&D, which would make a 789 flight on KE to ICN a natural progression to capture the connecting traffic to Asia.

I have flown out of MSP for a long time and I feel it might be one of the most consistent airports in the US. Even in the NW days, it has been very steady. Sure the NW747 to NRT went to a DL777 after the merger, but prior to the merger, NW didn't really have anything that could do that flight other than the 747. A few of the flights to Europe went to 763s but again, NW didn't really have anything smaller. The important flights to LHR, AMS, and CDG have been pretty consistent for decades practically. I think even NW operated MSP-CDG. DL has added KEF and seasonal service to FCO. Pretty respectable offering in my opinion.

FlyHappy wrote:

blockski wrote:

Why would they eliminate those long haul routes? The European ones are all to JV partner hubs. The relationship between KLM and Northwest dates back a long way, and there's a ton of traffic between MSP and AMS for that reason. This seems like a completely absurd speculation.

You understand that I really mean shifting of those routes and capacity to other gateway airports, not any capacity reduction overall to those JV hubs. I'm just observing the slow erosion of long haul from MSP and putting together the changing face of long haul travel, along with new efficiencies with fleet renewal, etc.

The elimination of NRT as an Asian hub does pose the question of the continued value of MSP - NRT if SEA is to be built up, and how KE JV will alter things. I am less familiar with the 3 European routes (though I've flown one or two), but similarly wonder if DL might see better use of fewer widebody aircraft to those destinations from DTW/ATL, etc.

Yes, I understood your point. Still doesn't add up to me. AMS is the number one international destination at ATL, DTW, and MSP. Some 450,000 people fly AMS-MSP annually. That's a ton of traffic to shift to another hub for no good reason.

FlyHappy wrote:

blockski wrote:

Why would they eliminate those long haul routes? The European ones are all to JV partner hubs. The relationship between KLM and Northwest dates back a long way, and there's a ton of traffic between MSP and AMS for that reason. This seems like a completely absurd speculation.

You understand that I really mean shifting of those routes and capacity to other gateway airports, not any capacity reduction overall to those JV hubs. I'm just observing the slow erosion of long haul from MSP and putting together the changing face of long haul travel, along with new efficiencies with fleet renewal, etc.

The elimination of NRT as an Asian hub does pose the question of the continued value of MSP - NRT if SEA is to be built up, and how KE JV will alter things. I am less familiar with the 3 European routes (though I've flown one or two), but similarly wonder if DL might see better use of fewer widebody aircraft to those destinations from DTW/ATL, etc.

I'm not sure why there's all this pessimism about MSP's continued viability as a long-haul hub. MSP is a large, strong O&D market and is the best-located transoceanic hub for a large swath of the country that includes a number of big not not huge cities like MCI and OMA. Moreover, some of those feed markets are far enough away from Europe that LFC encroachment from the likes of WW is unlikely.

Putting aside the HND slot squatting issue, I could foresee a reduction of MSP-TYO to sub-daily and/or 332 as the KE partnership develops, but MSP is too strong a hub and Tokyo still too important a market for no service.

ILUVDC10S wrote:

By the way the 340 from AF operates about 20 minutes faster than the DL 330 LOL

Not really. Both aircraft have the same typical cruise speed (M 0.82) and the same maximum speed (M 0.86). The difference is because Delta pads their flight times to make their on-time statistics look better.

mpdpilot wrote:

What erosion of long haul from MSP? I have only heard of things being added. If you want to go back far enough, sure I think NW operated MSP-OSL for awhile but what long haul flights are you referring to?

And I am pretty sure that the MSP flight to Asia goes to HND for O&D, which would make a 789 flight on KE to ICN a natural progression to capture the connecting traffic to Asia.

I have flown out of MSP for a long time and I feel it might be one of the most consistent airports in the US. Even in the NW days, it has been very steady. Sure the NW747 to NRT went to a DL777 after the merger, but prior to the merger, NW didn't really have anything that could do that flight other than the 747. A few of the flights to Europe went to 763s but again, NW didn't really have anything smaller. The important flights to LHR, AMS, and CDG have been pretty consistent for decades practically. I think even NW operated MSP-CDG. DL has added KEF and seasonal service to FCO. Pretty respectable offering in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT.
The HNL route was eliminated, and OSL as you had mentioned; I don't think FCO is ever serviced from MSP, not even seasonally. KEF is serviced, though its rather expensive when Iceland Air isn't running the route and providing competition. I'm expressing the fear that NRT will be eliminated and shifted to SEA, because with the elimination of the ex-NRT flights (BKK, MNL, SIN, PVG, TPE, HGK, etc) , the value of MSP - NRT has to be reduced.... it just has to, no?

I wrote "erosion of long haul" , and that was just a more compact, but admittedly inaccurate way of saying that the many and convenient one-stop connections from MSP to east and SE asians destinations are now gone. Yes, today one can still book these flights thru DL, but they are far less timely and more expensive. It is the price of no Japanese partner, and the KE tie-up remains to be seen how it impacts MSP.

I agree - MSP is steady, solid and frankly - more than respectable. I just hope it remains that way (internationally speaking).

klakzky123 wrote:

drgreendds wrote:

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

Quite the opposite. Minneapolis-St Paul has the highest per capita fortune 500 headquarters in the US outside of NYC. MSP is usually around top 5 in the US for household income. It's a very wealthy metro area with a strong business community. That to me is why MSP remains valuable. The O&D from MSP is extremely profitable for Delta. There has been growth in the CDG and AMS routes for years now. DL isn't just doing that for fun. It's a reflection of the continued growth in the area.

Flighty wrote:

by Flighty » 13 May 2017 16:16
My vague understanding is that Delta does very well as an airline, and seems to be keeping fairly heavy gauge at MSP, which IIRC is their second largest hub airport by seat count this summer.

The fact DL makes money at a company level and keeps capacity higher in MSP suggests that MSP has a greater profit margin than Delta does as a whole. This makes MSP a ravishing jewel of an airport. Or maybe I am wrong about that.

In terms of regional economy, I don't see MSP as very dynamic, it is just a typical midwestern city now. Des Moines on a larger scale (which ain't bad). It's maintaining.

MSP's economy is incredibly dynamic. Look at the company's headquartered there. There's strong retail (Target, Best Buy), strong agricultural/food headquarters, manufacturing, financial services (third largest after NYC and SFO), and is the largest concentration of medical device manufacturers in the world (as well as UnitedHealthGroup). MSP's economy is one of the strongest in the US (as is Minnesota's). I realize everyone likes to lump the midwest together but MSP is a huge exception in terms of growth and economic strength. This is why the airport has retained its position. The economy is just that strong.

Minneapolis is lovely but it isn't the third largest financial services market in the U.S. C'mon...

FlyHappy wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT

You might speak to Delta about that. 120 and 121 are definitely operating today.

FlyHappy wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT.
The HNL route was eliminated, and OSL as you had mentioned; I don't think FCO is ever serviced from MSP, not even seasonally. KEF is serviced, though its rather expensive when Iceland Air isn't running the route and providing competition. I'm expressing the fear that NRT will be eliminated and shifted to SEA, because with the elimination of the ex-NRT flights (BKK, MNL, SIN, PVG, TPE, HGK, etc) , the value of MSP - NRT has to be reduced.... it just has to, no?

I wrote "erosion of long haul" , and that was just a more compact, but admittedly inaccurate way of saying that the many and convenient one-stop connections from MSP to east and SE asians destinations are now gone. Yes, today one can still book these flights thru DL, but they are far less timely and more expensive. It is the price of no Japanese partner, and the KE tie-up remains to be seen how it impacts MSP.

I agree - MSP is steady, solid and frankly - more than respectable. I just hope it remains that way (internationally speaking).

While I agree I think on the second part, you should look at delta.com because all of those routes are on their website today. And as I said, I would be really surprised if DL doesn't add ICN either on KE or DL metal, which would provide much better connections than they DL have ever had with their NRT operation.

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT

You might speak to Delta about that. 120 and 121 are definitely operating today.

thank you. I am pleased to be corrected.
However, any intended travels beyond Japan (ie, the major cities previously serviced by DL metal) originating in MSP is routed via DTW/SEA, or the obviously soon to be eliminated PDX (commonly 2 hop). So basically, this is the basis for my feeling that MSP-NRT has lost significance and appeal.

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT

You might speak to Delta about that. 120 and 121 are definitely operating today.

Flights are to HND, not NRT. Please check delta.com.

mpdpilot wrote:

While I agree I think on the second part, you should look at delta.com because all of those routes are on their website today. And as I said, I would be really surprised if DL doesn't add ICN either on KE or DL metal, which would provide much better connections than they DL have ever had with their NRT operation.

actually, no. BKK and HKG are gone. Most of the others will be eliminated sooner than later (except HNL, I think) in favor of KE operated flights from ICN , or directly from SEA. Am I wrong about this part?

FlyHappy wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

FlyHappy wrote:

I'm pretty sure there's no MSP to HND, just NRT

You might speak to Delta about that. 120 and 121 are definitely operating today.

thank you. I am pleased to be corrected.
However, any intended travels beyond Japan (ie, the major cities previously serviced by DL metal) originating in MSP is routed via DTW/SEA, or the obviously soon to be eliminated PDX (commonly 2 hop). So basically, this is the basis for my feeling that MSP-NRT has lost significance and appeal.

US-NRT has lost significance. That does not mean it has no significance. TYO was a much larger portion of US-Asia O&D (probably close to or more than 50 percent in some markets) 30 years ago. That has changed. But Japan is still a large and important economy with many ties to the States, not to mention bidirectional tourism and VFR. That has not changed.

Is MSP losing its significance, with the build up of SEA

I miss A.net being a paid membership...the quality of the posts and posters was much higher. What happened to research and sentence structure?

IPFreely wrote:

ILUVDC10S wrote:

By the way the 340 from AF operates about 20 minutes faster than the DL 330 LOL

Not really. Both aircraft have the same typical cruise speed (M 0.82) and the same maximum speed (M 0.86). The difference is because Delta pads their flight times to make their on-time statistics look better.

Wait .. What? Would that be a violation of US Weights and measures laws since time is a measurement and its to be reported honestly or its fraud and deception right?
I was going on what DL. COM posts so I take them at their word to publish accurate flight times and statistics on flights honestly .

drgreendds wrote:

One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.

Really? Cite your facts as to why the cost of living in Minnesota is very high! I lived in Minnesota for 14 years and what you are stating is a complete falsehood. The business tax environment is one of the most relaxed I've seen. Delta is helping pay for a multi billion dollar expansion of the main terminal so they can add flights both domestic and international.

EarlyLateORD wrote:

I miss A.net being a paid membership...the quality of the posts and posters was much higher. What happened to research and sentence structure?

Thank you. People talking about MSP-NRT being in trouble even though with a quick search you'll see no longer operates and has switched to HND, one suggestion of MSP-FCO which was operated last summer and didn't work out, all TATL flights going away despite the fact that this service has been stable with seasonal increases in the summer, etc.

I think for now MSP has sufficient TATL service. Maybe DL will retry MSP-MEX and DL or KE will start MSP-ICN in the near future. There was also talk one or two years ago of MSP-China in the next few years, but I think with the DL/KE joint venture that won't happen.

drgreendds wrote:

It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there.

Not to be an ass but can people without jobs afford to live anywhere? That is not much of an criticism of MSP. Compared to the coasts and Chicago; MSP's cost of living, despite its increases, is still quite reasonable in the big scheme of things.

Back on topic, i think MSP's location in the center of NA is going to be its main source of DL growth in the future. DL can fly anywhere in the continental US from MSP with a CR9 or 717 and that opens up alot opportunities to overfly SLC and DTW to smaller airports like ONT, OAK, COS, FAT, GSO, CHS, MDT, SRQ, MHT, PWM, HPN, etc...

af773atmsp wrote:

EarlyLateORD wrote:

I miss A.net being a paid membership...the quality of the posts and posters was much higher. What happened to research and sentence structure?

Thank you. People talking about MSP-NRT being in trouble even though with a quick search you'll see no longer operates and has switched to HND, one suggestion of MSP-FCO which was operated last summer and didn't work out, all TATL flights going away despite the fact that this service has been stable with seasonal increases in the summer, etc.

I think for now MSP has sufficient TATL service. Maybe DL will retry MSP-MEX and DL or KE will start MSP-ICN in the near future. There was also talk one or two years ago of MSP-China in the next few years, but I think with the DL/KE joint venture that won't happen.

I last flew MSP-NRT in 2015, possibly 2014. My history with it goes back regularly to the 80's and possibly 70's, but my memories gets fuzzy. That was the era of Anchorage fuel stops and even Hawaii stops, for me..

The post isn't about Haneda vs Narita, its about International service broadly from MSP. Fine, so I now see that DL has switch from NRT to HND for its MSP route completely (sometime since my last flight on it) - which, for anyone wishing to travel to Asia beyond Tokyo from MSP is far, far worse. This precisely explains why the options (from this market) suck right now. Hopefully, the KE JV impact will improve the situation.

MSP - China is unrelated to KE JV, as China is not apart of the JV. To date, DL has consistently tapped DTW for those services, and MSP does not seem to be seriously considered for any new (one would think inevitable) routes into China.

Cointrin330 wrote:

Just flew into and out of MSP for the first time in a long time and it got me wondering what the future lies for this airport, which has remained a key element in the Delta Air Lines network since the DL/NW merger. Believe MSP is Delta's third largest hub with around 420-440 daily departures (with ATL and DTW being #1 and #2).

Curious whether future international expansion is possible or likely (DL and other airlines) and what the biggest projects on the horizon are for the airport.

In terms of Delta I don't expect anything. The make plenty of money in MSP, so it's not going anywhere, but Delta has also come to the realization that expansion only hurts yields.

I think eventually MSP-HND will end. It really depends upon how long it is until HND opens more. MSP-HND is not sustainable when a bunch of hubs have HND. I suspect it will eventually move to ICN.

TerminalD wrote:

MSP-HND is not sustainable when a bunch of hubs have HND.

Why not? Tokyo is still one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, even if DL is not flowing connecting traffic through NRT, MSP/HND local traffic and domestic connections on the MSP end should be able to support a Tokyo flight.

drmlnr1 wrote:

Really? Cite your facts as to why the cost of living in Minnesota is very high! I lived in Minnesota for 14 years and what you are stating is a complete falsehood. The business tax environment is one of the most relaxed I've seen. Delta is helping pay for a multi billion dollar expansion of the main terminal so they can add flights both domestic and international.

Please. Minnesota has a lot going for it apart from weather but it's residents are among the highest taxed in the country.

Highest state individual taxes -- Minnesota #5 out of 50:
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-h ... den/20494/

Highest state business taxes -- Minnesota #5 out of 50:
https://taxfoundation.org/2017-state-bu ... sed-today/

ILUVDC10S wrote:

MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

Atlanta has a finite amount of space and operations. How do you propose them handling service if they shutter MSP and DTW which you seem to be implying. MEM was a foregone conclusion to be closed, and I am not sure why they don't just officially say CVG is no longer a hub. MSP and DTW aren't going anywhere.

As for airlines lying about keeping hubs and ops before a merger. They all have done that to some extent or another. To say otherwise would probably have stopped a merger. Did anyone really think AA would keep STL? That UA would keep CLE? There are quite a few cities that used to be hubs that were disbanded once the paperwork was complete. Slowly perhaps, but it's the way the business operates.

usflyer msp wrote:

TerminalD wrote:

MSP-HND is not sustainable when a bunch of hubs have HND.

Why not? Tokyo is still one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, even if DL is not flowing connecting traffic through NRT, MSP/HND local traffic and domestic connections on the MSP end should be able to support a Tokyo flight.

At least for now, there's likely also some interior Japan traffic interlining at HND because ICN, while a great China hub, is not a great Japan hub. I pay most attention to NGO, and on days DTW-NGO does not operate or if it's sold out, there is not a great Skyteam option.