globalcabotage
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:42 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sat May 13, 2017 11:36 pm

MSP has a large Fortune 500 base that pays for the O&D portion of the hub.

Regarding"going from ORD-MSP-Europe," it must be a DL contract. ORD offers a plethora of nonstops that MSP will probably not see in the next 20 years. As much as it hurts me to say this, DTW is a better Europe transfer hub compared to MSP. But DL has JFK and the holy grail of ATL that limit DTW and MSP Europe hub priority.

Look at AA at ORD? Bigger market (than MSP and DTW) more traffic, but international service plays 4th string to DFW, MIA, JFK, and soon LAX.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sat May 13, 2017 11:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
MSP-HND is not sustainable when a bunch of hubs have HND.


Why not? Tokyo is still one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, even if DL is not flowing connecting traffic through NRT, MSP/HND local traffic and domestic connections on the MSP end should be able to support a Tokyo flight.


At least for now, there's likely also some interior Japan traffic interlining at HND because ICN, while a great China hub, is not a great Japan hub. I pay most attention to NGO, and on days DTW-NGO does not operate or if it's sold out, there is not a great Skyteam option.


Why is ICN a bad Japan hub? It is not a horrible backtrack and offers unparalleled service to secondary Japanese cities (ICN has flights to 23 cities in Japan)...
 
Cubsrule
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sat May 13, 2017 11:59 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

Why not? Tokyo is still one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, even if DL is not flowing connecting traffic through NRT, MSP/HND local traffic and domestic connections on the MSP end should be able to support a Tokyo flight.


At least for now, there's likely also some interior Japan traffic interlining at HND because ICN, while a great China hub, is not a great Japan hub. I pay most attention to NGO, and on days DTW-NGO does not operate or if it's sold out, there is not a great Skyteam option.


Why is ICN a bad Japan hub? It is not a horrible backtrack and offers unparalleled service to secondary Japanese cities (ICN has flights to 23 cities in Japan)...


Connection times from the eastern half of the US are often very long; frequently you can only catch the terminator which leads to a 3-4 hour connection and late arrival in Japan. Believe it or not, connecting in China is often faster.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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cvgComair
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 12:02 am

SFOATLFlyer wrote:
I am not sure why they don't just officially say CVG is no longer a hub.


Because it still is a hub :-). Unlike MEM, where DL was 0% committed, they have kept their promise that CVG would not close. They said it would be right-sized, which they have done and continue to do to this day, except now the right-sizing means growing their operation instead of shrinking! They still operate a sizable operation and have shown intentions to grow seats at CVG. Since the most recent cuts in 2014, Delta has grown seat capacity 13.1%! Delta just added CVG back to its 'Key Hubs and Markets' list and has been working on publicity, advertising with local sports team, doing volunteer work, ect. In addition to passenger services, we have a 737, MD-88/90, and Endeavor Crew and Pilot base, Endeavor Maintenance Facility, Delta Tech-Ops Facility, Call Center in Downtown Cincinnati, and the Delta Private Jets Headquarters. We even have Delta Porsche transfers like the big hubs at ATL/JFK. This is far cry from prior-hubs like CLE/MEM/PIT/etc. Straight from Delta this past week at a community service event in Cincinnati, “Cincinnati has always been a very important market for Delta,” said CVG Station Manager Christy Blackburn at the event. “And not only that, but our employees live here, work here, serve here – and it’s very important for us to also give back to the community that supports us.” A hub does not need 1000 daily departures like ATL to be important, all of Delta's hubs serve their own flows and purpose.

All these rumors DL will cut hubs is nonsense, presently their domestic hubs: ATL/BOS/CVG/DTW/JFK/LAX/LGA/MSP/SEA/SLC are doing well. This argument I presented applies for DTW/MSP as well, while DL is not adding flights left and right at these stations, it does not mean they don't work. Why change what already works? Cities like BOS/SEA are the "experiments", DTW/MSP are finalized products.
Next: CVG-IAH, Delta Connection CRJ-900
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2753
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 12:41 am

EarlyLateORD wrote:
MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam

Curious why Spirit belongs in Humphrey?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 12:42 am

ILUVDC10S wrote:
MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

Can you share what you are on so I can take some?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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787fan8
Posts: 320
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 12:58 am

ILUVDC10S wrote:
MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

And this kids, is why drugs are bad for you
Atlanta is an incredibly cool city - Andrew Lincoln
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:37 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:02 am

FlyHappy wrote:
drgreendds wrote:
One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.


You're kidding right?
MN's business environment (and economy) has always been strong and is stronger than ever. there's a reason why cost of living (in the Metro) is high, and that is due to high employment and income, not taxation. Just in case you want another perspective, here's a couple.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/12/americas ... nking.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-u ... #8-idaho-8

MN as never been a "destination" in the world of Aviation - not in the glory days of Northwest, and not now. It had a large hometown airline, a hub, a well developed Pacific presence, which it leveraged into a "transfer point". Consolidation and changing global aviation conspire to eliminate it as a high profile one, that's it. Taxes or business are virtually unrelated.



Wow, what an uninformed and inaccurate posting! The Minnesota state economy is very healthy indeed. Our state's unemployment rate is at 3.9%. Many national and international companies have their headquarters based in the state. Minnesota is very much a destination for people to come and either visit or reside. Yes, our state income taxes are on the high end, we currently rank out at #32, but what Minnesota residents get back is immeasurable and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. Please do some research before spouting a bunch of nonsense, backed up by nothing!
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:37 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:10 am

EarlyLateORD wrote:
MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam


Sun Country has inept management? Care to enlighten us on here with what evidence you have to support your assertion? Adding 5 new routes in less than a year hardly appears to be something that inept management would undertake. The airline is both stable and healthy. Granted, they did have a serious situation, back in 2015 during contract talks with the pilots and ultimately, cooler heads prevailed. Pilots got a 5 year deal that was ratified by 87%. I know more than a few employees of the airline and none of them trash the company, they are very glad SY is around, in business and has a fiercely loyal customer base, which includes me.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:15 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
MSP just gutted DTW's Europe flights with the removal of CDG which leaves DTW with no CDG flight , Second MSP I do foree will suffer the fate like MEM and DTW will too if ATL has its way. DL-ATL wants to with more furor to get rid of the last holdouts of the NWA operation face it folks . There is not a thing that the customer sees that has a NWA contribution on it NOTHING !
DL has lied to MSP like they did to DTW .

Can you share what you are on so I can take some?

I was using a bit of out of date info and few posts later did cede that DTW does have CDG flights even remarked that the NW/DL 330 is slower by 20 minutes than the AF 340.
 
TerminalD
Posts: 219
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:29 am

usflyer msp wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
MSP-HND is not sustainable when a bunch of hubs have HND.


Why not? Tokyo is still one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the world, even if DL is not flowing connecting traffic through NRT, MSP/HND local traffic and domestic connections on the MSP end should be able to support a Tokyo flight.

Because the market from MSP to Tokyo is small to have nonstop service. It's less than half the size of the DTW-Tokyo market. Before it worked because of the connects beyond Tokyo and now it works for the time being because there are few East coast routings to HND. When there are more options to HND it won't be sustainable. As I said, I think MSP will get ICN instead.
Cubsrule wrote:
At least for now, there's likely also some interior Japan traffic interlining at HND because ICN, while a great China hub, is not a great Japan hub. I pay most attention to NGO, and on days DTW-NGO does not operate or if it's sold out, there is not a great Skyteam option.

China is or will soon be a larger O&D from everywhere than Japan. Interior Japan is pennies compared to being able to connect to all of SE Asia and China. Plus, Japan via ICN is minimally circuitous.
 
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NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1065
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

5. Richard & Douglass why did you both file DL&NW bankruptcy case at the same time in the same city and court and ask for the same judge huh ?

Responding to ILUvdc10s
Both Northwest and Delta Air Lines filed for bankruptcy on the same day because if they had waited one more day the bankruptcy laws were changing and it made it more difficult for these airlines or anyone else to finale bankruptcy due to the changes in the bankruptcy laws.
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3557
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:41 am

I think MSP role in the system, is well, what it is doing now. Majority domestic connections in a spot in the middle of the continent. I cant see them expanding too much to Asia or Europe. They have most US destination handled or have been attempted.

I really don't see this hub shrinking, it performs really well i think, and cant see it expanding too much either. I think MSP is gonna be just that status quo unless something elese changes within delta that shifts things around ie a hub closes, new hub added etc etc which seems really unlikely.
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 2:05 am

I've lurked on this board for years, never feeling the need to respond. But this thread has left me shaking my head. It's entirely lacking in facts. So, here are the facts:

In the summer, Delta and its joint venture partners operate

MSP-AMS
3x daily DL
3x weekly KL

MSP-CDG
1x daily DL
1x daily AF

MSP-LHR
1x daily

MSP-KEF
1x daily

MSP-HND
1x daily

In addition, it's not international, but contrary to what was said,
MSP-HNL runs 5-7x weekly 9ish months out of the year. It has a very brief seasonal suspension in the late summer/early fall, but otherwise runs year-round.

MSP-KEF is new, the second MSP-CDG is new, the new less-than-daily MSP-AMS is new. MSP-HND replacing MSP-NRT is new. Admittedly, Delta applied for HND because it was its best bet to get another frequency, and it may not last. But reports are its holding its own.

Delta's total daily departures went down with the shift away from 50-seaters, but they moved up all of last year and have been flat this year. Delta isn't dismantling MSP and has shown no signs of anything other than low-level growth. No, it doesn't have a China flight, but there aren't any more US-China I frequencies left, and ATL doesn't have any China flights either. MSP-PVG will come eventually, but not any time soon. MSP-ICN seemed entirely implausible, but the pending DL-KE JV certainly puts in on the table in the medium term.

As for this dreadful Minnesota economy, let's talk about it. I moved him five years ago. In that time, my salary has doubled. It's a six-figure salary, too. I bought my current house three years ago — it's increase in value 25 percent. Metro-area unemployment is 3.2 percent. State-wide, it's 3.9 percent. And no jobs, please. Here's a list of some of the companies headquartered here. Stop me when I come to one you've heard of.

General Mills
3M
Target
United HealthCare
Best Buy
CHS
US Bank
SuperValue
C.H. Robinson
Thrivent Financial
Ecolab
Land O’Lakes
Ameriprise
Xcel Energy
Hormel
Mosaic

Those are just the Fortune 500s headquartered here. There are others with massive operations here (Wells Fargo, just to name one).

It's true our weather sucks four months of the year, and it's true it's one of the toughest states to recruit from. But it's also one of the toughest to recruit from.

Lots of things can go wrong and airlines can go under, hubs can close. So I'd never say never, never say forever. But the reality is the MSP hub for DL is growing and the MSP community is strong.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 2:34 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Why is ICN a bad Japan hub? It is not a horrible backtrack and offers unparalleled service to secondary Japanese cities (ICN has flights to 23 cities in Japan)...


It's bad compared to the competition:

United can take passengers to Tokyo where they connect to ANA for 1-stop service to over 40 cities in Japan.

American can take passengers to Tokyo where they connect to JAL for 1-stop service to over 40 cities in Japan.

Delta will take passengers to ICN where they connect to Korean for 1-stop service to 23 cities in Japan. That's half the available 1-stop destinations that the competition has, and all with longer travel duration due to overflying Japan and backtracking.
Last edited by IPFreely on Sun May 14, 2017 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 2:39 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
5. Richard & Douglass why did you both file DL&NW bankruptcy case at the same time in the same city and court and ask for the same judge huh ?

Responding to ILUvdc10s
Both Northwest and Delta Air Lines filed for bankruptcy on the same day because if they had waited one more day the bankruptcy laws were changing and it made it more difficult for these airlines or anyone else to finale bankruptcy due to the changes in the bankruptcy laws.

Do not you find that very odd that 2 airlines the same day file in same court ? And being histories between Steenland & Anderson I smell something fishy!.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110s ... g42877.htm
Here is the statement from Steenland to Congress:
The other choice is to merge with Delta to create a single,
stronger airline better able to face these challenges. By
combining the complementary end-to-end networks of two great
airlines, we will achieve substantial benefits and build a more
comprehensive and global network.
Most importantly, the merged airline will be more
financially resilient and stable, better positioned to meet
customers' needs, better able to meet competition at home and
abroad, and better able to provide secure jobs and benefits.
In this merger, importantly, no hubs will be closed. We
would like to focus on that for a second. In the U.S.,
Northwest operates hubs in Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis.
In recognition of the service we provide and the essential
nature we are to the community and the commitment we have made,
we received strong civic support in Michigan, in Memphis, and
in Minneapolis--in St.Paul we received the support of the
Minnesota Chamber, the St. Paul Chamber, and the Metro
Coalition of Chambers.
With this merger we have achieved our goal of crafting a
transaction that creates significant value for all of our
shareholders. The combined company will be more stable, better
positioned to meet the challenges of the future both at home
and abroad.
Here is Richard Anderson :
The same thing internationally. There's really no
competition issue here whatsoever internationally, which is
over 40 percent of the combined flying of the two airlines. The
merger provides stability for our employees. This industry has
lost 150,000 jobs and $30 billion in financial losses since
2001, and we have built this combination with our employees,
communities and shareholders in mind.
First, we have made a commitment to provide substantial
ownership to the employees in the combined company. Second, we
are committed to fair and equitable seniority integration.
Third, we have a covenant in the merger agreement and the way
this has been set up will protect the pensions of the
employees. Last, we have made a commitment to the front-line
employees that there would be no furloughs as a result of the
transaction.
Small communities and large communities benefit because
there are no hub closures, and we become the largest airline
serving small communities, with over 140 in the U.S. We create
new service to 3,000 domestic market city pairs, and over 6,000
new international city pairs.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 2:58 am

Further from :https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110shrg42877/html/CHRG-110shrg42877.htm
Senator Klobuchar. You know, there are nearly 12,000
employees in Minnesota, but there are about 1,300 employees in
the Eagan headquarters. How do you think these employees' jobs
will fare?
Mr. Anderson. The efficiency savings comes from both
headquarters, so when you look at putting two companies
together, the efficiencies--those efficiencies will come from
both headquarters.
Senator Klobuchar. And so do you still stand by your words,
I think it was in the merger announcement, where you said that
Delta and Northwest were committed to retaining significant
jobs, operations, and facilities in the State of Minnesota?
Mr. Anderson. Absolutely.
Senator Klobuchar. All right.
Mr. Steenland, do you want to comment on that?
Mr. Steenland. I would concur. That was a joint press
release and we fashioned those words together. When you look at
the--clearly, if you start with preservation of the hub, which
we have signed onto, obviously all of the front-line employees
at the airports, the pilot base, the flight attendant base, the
ancillary services necessary to operate a hub, our res. offices
in Chisholm and in Minneapolis, our information technology
center, our pilot training center are all activities that will
need to be part of the combined entity going forward.
And just the fact that one particular activity or a
particular service was not named on that list does not mean
that they will not be included, it just means that's about as
far as the process has gone so far and that there will be a
joint transition planning effort under way where we will then
start getting into some more detail, into some more granular
efforts where we'll identify some of the additional services .
Mr. Anderson. Well, so for just a little bit of history, I
was actually involved at Northwest with Mr. Steenland 16 years
ago when we negotiated that covenant with the State of
Minnesota, so I have a particular closeness to that commitment,
No. 1.
No. 2, Minneapolis is a very important part of this
combined network. It has a significant number of Fortune 200
companies. I'm on the board of two of them, Cargill and
Medtronic, in Minneapolis. And it's very important to the
vibrancy of that hub and to our commitment to Minnesota that
you make that same corporate commitment to the community. As
you know how that community works, that's a very important part
of the Minneapolis fabric. I understand that fabric, and we're
going to do our very best to live up to that statement in our
press release.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. And you understand, with
what's happened with some of these other airline mergers that
have been referenced and some promises made with TWA and
others, I'm just concerned about the staying power of these
commitments. In other words, what will prevent the combined
airline from laying off workers a year or two from now, you
know, claiming market forces drove them there?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:06 am

IPFreely wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Why is ICN a bad Japan hub? It is not a horrible backtrack and offers unparalleled service to secondary Japanese cities (ICN has flights to 23 cities in Japan)...


It's bad compared to the competition:

United can take passengers to Tokyo where they connect to ANA for 1-stop service to over 40 cities in Japan.

American can take passengers to Tokyo where they connect to JAL for 1-stop service to over 40 cities in Japan.

Delta will take passengers to ICN where they connect to Korean for 1-stop service to 23 cities in Japan. That's half the available 1-stop destinations that the competition has, and all with longer travel duration due to overflying Japan and backtracking.


Obviously, Japanese Airline partner-less DL is not going to be a particularly strong option in secondary Japanese cities however connecting in ICN is perfectly viable option for those people that choose to fly DL. Those people can also take JR Rail to HND/NRT if they so wish. DL can't be everything to everybody...
 
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bluefltspecial
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:27 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:08 am

Honestly, MSP is one of my fav airports just because if I have a long layover, I know I can find some time to entertain myself with shopping and food.

With a huge Nordic/Scandinavian population, it's no doubt that Norwegian has them on their radar, and will likely announce service there for next summer. I think that's not a question of if but when.

I think the other one is Jetblue, that's a huge hole in their network. Huge midwest population that is known for brand loyalty of customer service, B6 has only won the JD power for 12 years non stop, I think they finally lost it to WN this year.... Jetblue to West coast, Florida, NYC and BOS all places people in MSP wanna go... Would not surprise me, should have announced it years ago, wouldn't surprise meme if they announced it tomorrow.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:36 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
Honestly, MSP is one of my fav airports just because if I have a long layover, I know I can find some time to entertain myself with shopping and food.

With a huge Nordic/Scandinavian population, it's no doubt that Norwegian has them on their radar, and will likely announce service there for next summer. I think that's not a question of if but when.

I think the other one is Jetblue, that's a huge hole in their network. Huge midwest population that is known for brand loyalty of customer service, B6 has only won the JD power for 12 years non stop, I think they finally lost it to WN this year.... Jetblue to West coast, Florida, NYC and BOS all places people in MSP wanna go... Would not surprise me, should have announced it years ago, wouldn't surprise meme if they announced it tomorrow.


I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:51 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam

Curious why Spirit belongs in Humphrey?

Metropolitan Airports Commission wants to make Terminal 1 a Skyteam Terminal. Terminal 2 will be everything else.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 am

lavalampluva wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam

Curious why Spirit belongs in Humphrey?

Metropolitan Airports Commission wants to make Terminal 1 a Skyteam Terminal. Terminal 2 will be everything else.


That plan has been quashed for several years now. They only expansion at T2-Humphrey will be from the carriers that are already there or new entrants. No one is switching terminals in the foreseeable future.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 102
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 4:09 am

jrkmsp wrote:
In addition, it's not international, but contrary to what was said,
MSP-HNL runs 5-7x weekly 9ish months out of the year. It has a very brief seasonal suspension in the late summer/early fall, but otherwise runs year-round.


Since I'm the one who said it, its incumbent on me to respond ;)
Delta announced last year that they would end MSP - HNL. In the fall, they said they would continue service thru labor day, 2017, replacing FCO for the summer with HNL. Having said that, if you look right now, MSP - HNL flt 1492 operates only 1x per week on Saturday. That's not a lot of service. Yes, you have said the frequency will increase, though after labor day ? Having said that, anecdotally (which I realize ain't worth a hill of beans), every time I've gotten the itch to visit HI in the last several years, that flight has not been available to me. Maybe my itches always come at the wrong time.

A few months back, I saw a Hawaiian A330 roar down the runway at MSP and got very, very excited. Then I sadly realized it was obviously there just for TechOps MRO service.

Jus' sayin' .
 
User avatar
KGRB
Posts: 684
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 5:33 am

FlyHappy wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
In addition, it's not international, but contrary to what was said,
MSP-HNL runs 5-7x weekly 9ish months out of the year. It has a very brief seasonal suspension in the late summer/early fall, but otherwise runs year-round.


Since I'm the one who said it, its incumbent on me to respond ;)
Delta announced last year that they would end MSP - HNL. In the fall, they said they would continue service thru labor day, 2017, replacing FCO for the summer with HNL. Having said that, if you look right now, MSP - HNL flt 1492 operates only 1x per week on Saturday. That's not a lot of service.

Negative, ghost rider. DAL1492 MSP-HNL-MSP is a near-daily service.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1492

Also, I'm not sure where you heard that MSP-HNL is ending. I'm not aware of any such announcement. You are correct, though, that MSP-FCO won't be coming back this summer.
Flown on: Air Wisconsin, America West, American, Compass, Delta, Endeavor Air, Envoy, ExpressJet, Mesa, Mesaba, Midwest Express, Northwest, Piedmont, Pinnacle, PSA, Skyway, SkyWest, United, US Airways
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1450
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:28 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Having said that, anecdotally (which I realize ain't worth a hill of beans), every time I've gotten the itch to visit HI in the last several years, that flight has not been available to me.


Why wouldn't a flight be available to you? Are you on the no-fly list???
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:18 pm

KGRB wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
In addition, it's not international, but contrary to what was said,
MSP-HNL runs 5-7x weekly 9ish months out of the year. It has a very brief seasonal suspension in the late summer/early fall, but otherwise runs year-round.


Since I'm the one who said it, its incumbent on me to respond ;)
Delta announced last year that they would end MSP - HNL. In the fall, they said they would continue service thru labor day, 2017, replacing FCO for the summer with HNL. Having said that, if you look right now, MSP - HNL flt 1492 operates only 1x per week on Saturday. That's not a lot of service.

Negative, ghost rider. DAL1492 MSP-HNL-MSP is a near-daily service.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL1492

Also, I'm not sure where you heard that MSP-HNL is ending. I'm not aware of any such announcement. You are correct, though, that MSP-FCO won't be coming back this summer.


It's runs 5x weekly right now, then goes daily for the peak of summer, then 4x weekly in August. It is suspended September and most of October, then returns 5x weekly in November. I'm sorry it hasn't fit your personal flight patterns, but it's not going away. And it's already loaded for next winter, 4-5x weekly, and daily over the holidays.
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
Posts: 63
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:29 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
Honestly, MSP is one of my fav airports just because if I have a long layover, I know I can find some time to entertain myself with shopping and food.

With a huge Nordic/Scandinavian population, it's no doubt that Norwegian has them on their radar, and will likely announce service there for next summer. I think that's not a question of if but when.

I think the other one is Jetblue, that's a huge hole in their network. Huge midwest population that is known for brand loyalty of customer service, B6 has only won the JD power for 12 years non stop, I think they finally lost it to WN this year.... Jetblue to West coast, Florida, NYC and BOS all places people in MSP wanna go... Would not surprise me, should have announced it years ago, wouldn't surprise meme if they announced it tomorrow.


I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.



Over the last couple years, I've sent more than a few emails to JetBlue, practically pleading for them to enter the MSP market. I had never thought about the idea of a code sharing arrangement with SY, but damn, if that isn't a great idea! JetBlue has such a strong presence in the Caribbean and it would be great to have a link between SY and B6 to get the wintertime vacationers from MSP to those Caribbean destinations not served by SY.
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 1:40 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
Honestly, MSP is one of my fav airports just because if I have a long layover, I know I can find some time to entertain myself with shopping and food.

With a huge Nordic/Scandinavian population, it's no doubt that Norwegian has them on their radar, and will likely announce service there for next summer. I think that's not a question of if but when.

I think the other one is Jetblue, that's a huge hole in their network. Huge midwest population that is known for brand loyalty of customer service, B6 has only won the JD power for 12 years non stop, I think they finally lost it to WN this year.... Jetblue to West coast, Florida, NYC and BOS all places people in MSP wanna go... Would not surprise me, should have announced it years ago, wouldn't surprise meme if they announced it tomorrow.


I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.



Over the last couple years, I've sent more than a few emails to JetBlue, practically pleading for them to enter the MSP market. I had never thought about the idea of a code sharing arrangement with SY, but damn, if that isn't a great idea! JetBlue has such a strong presence in the Caribbean and it would be great to have a link between SY and B6 to get the wintertime vacationers from MSP to those Caribbean destinations not served by SY.

that would affect cannabilize Jet Blue ORD Operations right ? be like the MEM vs ATL thing . as people say overlap of services LOL. due to close proximity
 
SFOATLFlyer
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:26 pm

cvgComair wrote:
SFOATLFlyer wrote:
I am not sure why they don't just officially say CVG is no longer a hub.


Because it still is a hub :-). Unlike MEM, where DL was 0% committed, they have kept their promise that CVG would not close. They said it would be right-sized, which they have done and continue to do to this day, except now the right-sizing means growing their operation instead of shrinking! They still operate a sizable operation and have shown intentions to grow seats at CVG. Since the most recent cuts in 2014, Delta has grown seat capacity 13.1%! Delta just added CVG back to its 'Key Hubs and Markets' list and has been working on publicity, advertising with local sports team, doing volunteer work, ect. In addition to passenger services, we have a 737, MD-88/90, and Endeavor Crew and Pilot base, Endeavor Maintenance Facility, Delta Tech-Ops Facility, Call Center in Downtown Cincinnati, and the Delta Private Jets Headquarters. We even have Delta Porsche transfers like the big hubs at ATL/JFK. This is far cry from prior-hubs like CLE/MEM/PIT/etc. Straight from Delta this past week at a community service event in Cincinnati, “Cincinnati has always been a very important market for Delta,” said CVG Station Manager Christy Blackburn at the event. “And not only that, but our employees live here, work here, serve here – and it’s very important for us to also give back to the community that supports us.” A hub does not need 1000 daily departures like ATL to be important, all of Delta's hubs serve their own flows and purpose.

All these rumors DL will cut hubs is nonsense, presently their domestic hubs: ATL/BOS/CVG/DTW/JFK/LAX/LGA/MSP/SEA/SLC are doing well. This argument I presented applies for DTW/MSP as well, while DL is not adding flights left and right at these stations, it does not mean they don't work. Why change what already works? Cities like BOS/SEA are the "experiments", DTW/MSP are finalized products.


I get what you are saying, but it just doesn't feel like a hub anymore based on destinations served. Connection options don't give pax as many choices. I'd love to see i bounce back, it would make some of my flying less of a hassle.
 
klm617
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:41 pm

I think MSP has a pretty solid place in the future of the Delta network. It is the number 2 hub and Delta is always doing interesting and new things in the MSP market. So no real worries unlike the Detroit meekest that is always getting hit with destination and capacity reductions so I would say Detroit right now is the most exposed hub as far as reductions and shifting capacity away over other hubs. I can't even think of the last time there has been a significant capacity addition every time they throw Detroit a bone they take double away while MSP continues to follow an upward trend as far additions.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 3:46 pm

I've been monitoring LFs on MSP/HND. I haven't seen a full plane yet, plenty of seats forward and aft cabins, days, weeks, or months in advance. SEA/HND would be full. DL's single flight ex-MSP a day to Asia. I predict DL will do everything it can to move the HND slot to ex-SEA and invite KE to "try" ICN/MSP.

Moreover, the fares are some of the highest in the DL network... e.g., $10K for J with 13 of 47 J seats unsold.
 
klm617
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 4:02 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I've been monitoring LFs on MSP/HND. I haven't seen a full plane yet, plenty of seats forward and aft cabins, days, weeks, or months in advance. SEA/HND would be full. DL's single flight ex-MSP a day to Asia. I predict DL will do everything it can to move the HND slot to ex-SEA and invite KE to "try" ICN/MSP.

Moreover, the fares are some of the highest in the DL network... e.g., $10K for J with 13 of 47 J seats unsold.



You guys are lucky if that flight would be DTW-HND with those kinds of loads it would have been dumped ages ago.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
CVGDTWfan
Posts: 15
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Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 5:06 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.



Over the last couple years, I've sent more than a few emails to JetBlue, practically pleading for them to enter the MSP market. I had never thought about the idea of a code sharing arrangement with SY, but damn, if that isn't a great idea! JetBlue has such a strong presence in the Caribbean and it would be great to have a link between SY and B6 to get the wintertime vacationers from MSP to those Caribbean destinations not served by SY.

that would affect cannabilize Jet Blue ORD Operations right ? be like the MEM vs ATL thing . as people say overlap of services LOL. due to close proximity



Not at all. That's an apples to oranges comparison. There is clearly a market for JetBlue to operate a few routes from MSP, as well as ORD. MEM was a hub that had destinations that the local market couldn't necessarily support and the connections through MEM would be better served by just using ATL instead, hence why MEM was closed.
 
jagraham
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Don't forget that MSP is a fortress hub. In addition to being the 15th largest metro area in the US. It's the type of city both Delta and Northwest was built on
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:09 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.



Over the last couple years, I've sent more than a few emails to JetBlue, practically pleading for them to enter the MSP market. I had never thought about the idea of a code sharing arrangement with SY, but damn, if that isn't a great idea! JetBlue has such a strong presence in the Caribbean and it would be great to have a link between SY and B6 to get the wintertime vacationers from MSP to those Caribbean destinations not served by SY.

that would affect cannabilize Jet Blue ORD Operations right ? be like the MEM vs ATL thing . as people say overlap of services LOL. due to close proximity


No, it wouldn't. ORD is just a spoke for B6 just like MSP would be so there's room for B6 to serve both with just O&D alone.

Examples of overlap in networks are STL & ORD in the post-TW merger AA, CLE & ORD in the post-CO merger UA, or yes, MEM & ATL in the DL network. The reason hubs like STL, CLE, and MEM don't survive is not only due to overlap but due to low O & D bases.

MEM thrived under NW because it was all they had in the South but it was heavily reliant on connections, so in the new DL you have the superhub in the high O&D base ATL and the low yielding MEM serving the same traffic patterns. No reason to keep both. The fact that no one has stepped in to build a substantial operation even 1/4 the size of NW's since DL's drawback should tell you all you need to know about MEM's viability.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:35 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
.

The 3 remaining European routes (AMS/CDG/LHR) probably stay for now, but they are flown by aging A330's which (I perceive) are slated for replacement, and its unclear if the the replacements are configured with MSP service in mind? Its pretty clear that this traffic could be serviced from DTW/ATL if a change in capacity, frequency or timings were desirable.

If MSP were to lose these 4 routes, its hard to imagine there wouldn't be an accompanying shrinkage in domestic routes without need to feed these long-hauls.



You will be very happy to note that DL's newest A330-300 tailnr. N831NW - delivered 29 April 2017 - started operations out of MSP this week.

2017-05-15 DL161 AMS - MSP
2017-05-14 DL72 ATL - AMS
2017-05-13 DL836 HNL - ATL
2017-05-13 DL1469 MSP - HNL
2017-05-12 DL1492 HNL - MSP
2017-05-12 DL837 ATL - HNL
2017-05-11 DL836 HNL - ATL
2017-05-11 DL1469 MSP - HNL

In addition DL/KL just increased MSP-AMS to 4x daily on certain days of the week.
So this route is unlikely to move to DTW or ATL as both DTW-AMS and ATL-AMS are already at 4x DL daily.

MSP warrants its own DL hub.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:50 pm

:old:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
5. Richard & Douglass why did you both file DL&NW bankruptcy case at the same time in the same city and court and ask for the same judge huh ?

Responding to ILUvdc10s
Both Northwest and Delta Air Lines filed for bankruptcy on the same day because if they had waited one more day the bankruptcy laws were changing and it made it more difficult for these airlines or anyone else to finale bankruptcy due to the changes in the bankruptcy laws.


Do not you find that very odd that 2 airlines the same day file in same court ? And being histories between Steenland & Anderson I smell something fishy!.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110s ... g42877.htm
Here is the statement from Steenland to Congress:
The other choice is to merge with Delta to create a single,
stronger airline better able to face these challenges. By
combining the complementary end-to-end networks of two great
airlines, we will achieve substantial benefits and build a more
comprehensive and global network.
Most importantly, the merged airline will be more
financially resilient and stable, better positioned to meet
customers' needs, better able to meet competition at home and
abroad, and better able to provide secure jobs and benefits.
In this merger, importantly, no hubs will be closed. We
would like to focus on that for a second. In the U.S.,
Northwest operates hubs in Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis.
In recognition of the service we provide and the essential
nature we are to the community and the commitment we have made,
we received strong civic support in Michigan, in Memphis, and
in Minneapolis--in St.Paul we received the support of the
Minnesota Chamber, the St. Paul Chamber, and the Metro
Coalition of Chambers.
With this merger we have achieved our goal of crafting a
transaction that creates significant value for all of our
shareholders. The combined company will be more stable, better
positioned to meet the challenges of the future both at home
and abroad.
Here is Richard Anderson :
The same thing internationally. There's really no
competition issue here whatsoever internationally, which is
over 40 percent of the combined flying of the two airlines. The
merger provides stability for our employees. This industry has
lost 150,000 jobs and $30 billion in financial losses since
2001, and we have built this combination with our employees,
communities and shareholders in mind.
First, we have made a commitment to provide substantial
ownership to the employees in the combined company. Second, we
are committed to fair and equitable seniority integration.
Third, we have a covenant in the merger agreement and the way
this has been set up will protect the pensions of the
employees. Last, we have made a commitment to the front-line
employees that there would be no furloughs as a result of the
transaction.
Small communities and large communities benefit because
there are no hub closures, and we become the largest airline
serving small communities, with over 140 in the U.S. We create
new service to 3,000 domestic market city pairs, and over 6,000
new international city pairs.


Having worked 37 years at Northwest I was fully aware of some of the shenanigans that was going on there. Richard being CEO of Northwest, resigns and goes to United Health whereby Doug Steenland takes charge of Northwest Airlines so as Richard will not get his name dirtied and run into the mud. Northwest forces a strike, actually a lock out with the mechanics represented by the useless association AMFA. Gets rid of the excess mechanics that Richard publicly stated he should never had hired along with many other employees as the purpose of the "strike" was to downsize Northwest for an already planned merger with Delta. Both Northwest and Delta file for bankruptcy on the same day as I previously gave the reasons for above. Both airlines shed debt and unwanted leases and aircraft that were not going to be needed. Northwest in particular, needed to shed obligations and debt that were put on due the acquisition of Northwest Airlines by Alfred E. Chechi, Fred Maleck and Gary Wilson. Delta Air Lines had been a take over target by U S Airways and possibly others. Delta and Northwest has planned there merger well before any bankruptcies. When Delta Air Lines exits bankruptcy Richard suddenly joins Delta's Board of Directors and shortly after resigns from United Health to become CEO of Delta Air Lines. The merger is announced and Richard appears before the Senate stating that the NEW Delta has NO intention of exiting Memphis. The merger is approved and Delta lives on. Memphis is downsized to the point of almost extinction. Almost looks like it could be made into a movie in Hollywood. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
FlyUSAir
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:26 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:53 pm

drgreendds wrote:
One of the main problems with MSP is Minnesota itself. MN has become one of the worst states to do business in because of the tax laws and general environment. It's a great place to live, but without a job people cannot afford to live there. And the cost of living up there has become very high as well. The combination of these two elements make MN a transfer point rather than a destination. Delta knows that, so unfortunately most MN residents do not have access to direct global destinations because there just isn't the market demand for those flights. Business travel to and from MN drives that demand and the business just isn't strong enough to justify those flight routes.


I think you're thinking of Connecticut. I'm surprised in this mess BDL is actually growing, maybe because people from Massachusetts are flocking to it to avoid BOS.
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 6:57 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
:old:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
5. Richard & Douglass why did you both file DL&NW bankruptcy case at the same time in the same city and court and ask for the same judge huh ?

Responding to ILUvdc10s
Both Northwest and Delta Air Lines filed for bankruptcy on the same day because if they had waited one more day the bankruptcy laws were changing and it made it more difficult for these airlines or anyone else to finale bankruptcy due to the changes in the bankruptcy laws.


Do not you find that very odd that 2 airlines the same day file in same court ? And being histories between Steenland & Anderson I smell something fishy!.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110s ... g42877.htm
Here is the statement from Steenland to Congress:
The other choice is to merge with Delta to create a single,
stronger airline better able to face these challenges. By
combining the complementary end-to-end networks of two great
airlines, we will achieve substantial benefits and build a more
comprehensive and global network.
Most importantly, the merged airline will be more
financially resilient and stable, better positioned to meet
customers' needs, better able to meet competition at home and
abroad, and better able to provide secure jobs and benefits.
In this merger, importantly, no hubs will be closed. We
would like to focus on that for a second. In the U.S.,
Northwest operates hubs in Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis.
In recognition of the service we provide and the essential
nature we are to the community and the commitment we have made,
we received strong civic support in Michigan, in Memphis, and
in Minneapolis--in St.Paul we received the support of the
Minnesota Chamber, the St. Paul Chamber, and the Metro
Coalition of Chambers.
With this merger we have achieved our goal of crafting a
transaction that creates significant value for all of our
shareholders. The combined company will be more stable, better
positioned to meet the challenges of the future both at home
and abroad.
Here is Richard Anderson :
The same thing internationally. There's really no
competition issue here whatsoever internationally, which is
over 40 percent of the combined flying of the two airlines. The
merger provides stability for our employees. This industry has
lost 150,000 jobs and $30 billion in financial losses since
2001, and we have built this combination with our employees,
communities and shareholders in mind.
First, we have made a commitment to provide substantial
ownership to the employees in the combined company. Second, we
are committed to fair and equitable seniority integration.
Third, we have a covenant in the merger agreement and the way
this has been set up will protect the pensions of the
employees. Last, we have made a commitment to the front-line
employees that there would be no furloughs as a result of the
transaction.
Small communities and large communities benefit because
there are no hub closures, and we become the largest airline
serving small communities, with over 140 in the U.S. We create
new service to 3,000 domestic market city pairs, and over 6,000
new international city pairs.


Having worked 37 years at Northwest I was fully aware of some of the shenanigans that was going on there. Richard being CEO of Northwest, resigns and goes to United Health whereby Doug Steenland takes charge of Northwest Airlines so as Richard will not get his name dirtied and run into the mud. Northwest forces a strike, actually a lock out with the mechanics represented by the useless association AMFA. Gets rid of the excess mechanics that Richard publicly stated he should never had hired along with many other employees as the purpose of the "strike" was to downsize Northwest for an already planned merger with Delta. Both Northwest and Delta file for bankruptcy on the same day as I previously gave the reasons for above. Both airlines shed debt and unwanted leases and aircraft that were not going to be needed. Northwest in particular, needed to shed obligations and debt that were put on due the acquisition of Northwest Airlines by Alfred E. Chechi, Fred Maleck and Gary Wilson. Delta Air Lines had been a take over target by U S Airways and possibly others. Delta and Northwest has planned there merger well before any bankruptcies. When Delta Air Lines exits bankruptcy Richard suddenly joins Delta's Board of Directors and shortly after resigns from United Health to become CEO of Delta Air Lines. The merger is announced and Richard appears before the Senate stating that the NEW Delta has NO intention of exiting Memphis. The merger is approved and Delta lives on. Memphis is downsized to the point of almost extinction. Almost looks like it could be made into a movie in Hollywood. :old:


Well Thank you for confirming I was right after all ! And that I DO know alot about the airline business after all ! I owe ya one! think Crow s being served for Dinner in ATL & on Airliners.net right about now LOLOLOL. thank you for making my day !!!
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 7:52 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
:old:
ILUVDC10S wrote:

Do not you find that very odd that 2 airlines the same day file in same court ? And being histories between Steenland & Anderson I smell something fishy!.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110s ... g42877.htm
Here is the statement from Steenland to Congress:
The other choice is to merge with Delta to create a single,
stronger airline better able to face these challenges. By
combining the complementary end-to-end networks of two great
airlines, we will achieve substantial benefits and build a more
comprehensive and global network.
Most importantly, the merged airline will be more
financially resilient and stable, better positioned to meet
customers' needs, better able to meet competition at home and
abroad, and better able to provide secure jobs and benefits.
In this merger, importantly, no hubs will be closed. We
would like to focus on that for a second. In the U.S.,
Northwest operates hubs in Detroit, Memphis, and Minneapolis.
In recognition of the service we provide and the essential
nature we are to the community and the commitment we have made,
we received strong civic support in Michigan, in Memphis, and
in Minneapolis--in St.Paul we received the support of the
Minnesota Chamber, the St. Paul Chamber, and the Metro
Coalition of Chambers.
With this merger we have achieved our goal of crafting a
transaction that creates significant value for all of our
shareholders. The combined company will be more stable, better
positioned to meet the challenges of the future both at home
and abroad.
Here is Richard Anderson :
The same thing internationally. There's really no
competition issue here whatsoever internationally, which is
over 40 percent of the combined flying of the two airlines. The
merger provides stability for our employees. This industry has
lost 150,000 jobs and $30 billion in financial losses since
2001, and we have built this combination with our employees,
communities and shareholders in mind.
First, we have made a commitment to provide substantial
ownership to the employees in the combined company. Second, we
are committed to fair and equitable seniority integration.
Third, we have a covenant in the merger agreement and the way
this has been set up will protect the pensions of the
employees. Last, we have made a commitment to the front-line
employees that there would be no furloughs as a result of the
transaction.
Small communities and large communities benefit because
there are no hub closures, and we become the largest airline
serving small communities, with over 140 in the U.S. We create
new service to 3,000 domestic market city pairs, and over 6,000
new international city pairs.


Having worked 37 years at Northwest I was fully aware of some of the shenanigans that was going on there. Richard being CEO of Northwest, resigns and goes to United Health whereby Doug Steenland takes charge of Northwest Airlines so as Richard will not get his name dirtied and run into the mud. Northwest forces a strike, actually a lock out with the mechanics represented by the useless association AMFA. Gets rid of the excess mechanics that Richard publicly stated he should never had hired along with many other employees as the purpose of the "strike" was to downsize Northwest for an already planned merger with Delta. Both Northwest and Delta file for bankruptcy on the same day as I previously gave the reasons for above. Both airlines shed debt and unwanted leases and aircraft that were not going to be needed. Northwest in particular, needed to shed obligations and debt that were put on due the acquisition of Northwest Airlines by Alfred E. Chechi, Fred Maleck and Gary Wilson. Delta Air Lines had been a take over target by U S Airways and possibly others. Delta and Northwest has planned there merger well before any bankruptcies. When Delta Air Lines exits bankruptcy Richard suddenly joins Delta's Board of Directors and shortly after resigns from United Health to become CEO of Delta Air Lines. The merger is announced and Richard appears before the Senate stating that the NEW Delta has NO intention of exiting Memphis. The merger is approved and Delta lives on. Memphis is downsized to the point of almost extinction. Almost looks like it could be made into a movie in Hollywood. :old:


Well Thank you for confirming I was right after all ! And that I DO know alot about the airline business after all ! I owe ya one! think Crow s being served for Dinner in ATL & on Airliners.net right about now LOLOLOL. thank you for making my day !!!


That is basically the "urban legend" version. In reality, fuel prices were soaring in 2005 and part of bankruptcy law changes (under the BAPCPA of 2005) was that after companies filed for bankruptcy the essentially had to pre-pay utility (i.e. fuel) bills and that would have sucked up the majority of DL/NW's remaining cash and required them to get much more financing for their bankruptcy reorganization. The new law went into effect on 10/15/05 but the federal courts starting winding down cases under the old law on 9/15 so both carriers filed C11 on the very last possible day - 9/14/05. It wasn't some sort of conspiracy; it was so both carriers could save cash and more easily finance their inevitable trip through bankruptcy court...
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 7:56 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
:old:

Having worked 37 years at Northwest I was fully aware of some of the shenanigans that was going on there. Richard being CEO of Northwest, resigns and goes to United Health whereby Doug Steenland takes charge of Northwest Airlines so as Richard will not get his name dirtied and run into the mud. Northwest forces a strike, actually a lock out with the mechanics represented by the useless association AMFA. Gets rid of the excess mechanics that Richard publicly stated he should never had hired along with many other employees as the purpose of the "strike" was to downsize Northwest for an already planned merger with Delta. Both Northwest and Delta file for bankruptcy on the same day as I previously gave the reasons for above. Both airlines shed debt and unwanted leases and aircraft that were not going to be needed. Northwest in particular, needed to shed obligations and debt that were put on due the acquisition of Northwest Airlines by Alfred E. Chechi, Fred Maleck and Gary Wilson. Delta Air Lines had been a take over target by U S Airways and possibly others. Delta and Northwest has planned there merger well before any bankruptcies. When Delta Air Lines exits bankruptcy Richard suddenly joins Delta's Board of Directors and shortly after resigns from United Health to become CEO of Delta Air Lines. The merger is announced and Richard appears before the Senate stating that the NEW Delta has NO intention of exiting Memphis. The merger is approved and Delta lives on. Memphis is downsized to the point of almost extinction. Almost looks like it could be made into a movie in Hollywood. :old:


Well Thank you for confirming I was right after all ! And that I DO know alot about the airline business after all ! I owe ya one! think Crow s being served for Dinner in ATL & on Airliners.net right about now LOLOLOL. thank you for making my day !!!


That is basically the "urban legend" version. In reality, fuel prices were soaring in 2005 and part of bankruptcy law changes (under the BAPCPA of 2005) was that after companies filed for bankruptcy the essentially had to pre-pay utility (i.e. fuel) bills and that would have sucked up the majority of DL/NW's remaining cash and required them to get much more financing for their bankruptcy reorganization. The new law went into effect on 10/15/05 but the federal courts starting winding down cases under the old law on 9/15 so both carriers filed C11 on the very last possible day - 9/14/05. It wasn't some sort of conspiracy; it was so both carriers could save cash and more easily finance their inevitable trip through bankruptcy court...


Respectfully, Have a issue with the facts? Not only have I shown it on here others have too . Sorry sometimes its tough to eat a truth hurts doughnut huh?
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 7:59 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
MSP has enjoyed some recent expansions. KLM was added on a thrice-weekly basis. The seasonal Air France flight is doing well, it will likely shift from an A340 to a 789 or 777 in the future. BA and LH have looked at us, but declined to serve. LH sort of hits MSP via Condor to Frankfurt. Icelander is doing very well, we are one of the few stations that see the 767 in the summer.

Domestically, we survived United's attempt to make MSP a nearly 100% RJ station. They have now shifted much of the flying back to mainline, outside of EWR. UA is upgrading the SFO flights to a 737.

My only domestic airline criticism is Spirit's move to the main terminal from Humphrey, where they really belong.

I have status on AA and generally only fly AA out of here. AA has been able to consistently fill A321's to CLT and PHX. They operate the frames in an interesting pattern. Caribbean/Florida to CLT-MSP-PHX-LAX.

Sun Country, despite their inept management, continues to grow. Adding Aruba and Tucson.

The main terminal is undergoing a large improvement project that has caused some congestion. We recently saw our security points changed, mostly for the better, but at times for the worse. They are adding a new parking deck as well as out first airport hotel, an Intercontinental, with direct TSA access.

As far as future growth. I think there may be a chance for a KE flight as well as Avianca or Copa. DL will continue to reduce flights and increase plane size. This has occurred since the DC9's and Saabs left.

MSP is generally speaking the 2nd largest economy in the Midwest, we have the second highest housing cost. Taxes are slightly high, but thats when compared to states with no service like South Dakota. At least in MN you get something for your tax dollars and every vote is counted (unlike my former home, Illinois). I have heard many HR professionals say that Minneapolis is the hardest place to get people to move to, and to move from.

Adam

Curious why Spirit belongs in Humphrey?


The Humphrey Terminal, now formally known as Terminal 2, was expanded with low cost new entrants to MSP in mind. It seems logical to have both Spirit and Frontier in Terminal 2 with Southwest, Sun Country, Icelandair, and Condor but there are not enough gates. Yet. Right now, the Legacy 3 don't need all the gates on concourse E (and occasionally on concourse D maybe-does Spirit use a D gates sometimes) that Spirit and Frontier use but that could changed in the future.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12337
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 8:12 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
MEM thrived under NW because it was all they had in the South but it was heavily reliant on connections, so in the new DL you have the superhub in the high O&D base ATL and the low yielding MEM serving the same traffic patterns. No reason to keep both. The fact that no one has stepped in to build a substantial operation even 1/4 the size of NW's since DL's drawback should tell you all you need to know about MEM's viability.


I'd love to see some evidence that MEM was or
is "low yielding," but something tells me that I shouldn't hold my breath.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 8:19 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
MEM thrived under NW because it was all they had in the South but it was heavily reliant on connections, so in the new DL you have the superhub in the high O&D base ATL and the low yielding MEM serving the same traffic patterns. No reason to keep both. The fact that no one has stepped in to build a substantial operation even 1/4 the size of NW's since DL's drawback should tell you all you need to know about MEM's viability.


I'd love to see some evidence that MEM was or
is "low yielding," but something tells me that I shouldn't hold my breath.

Every MEM flight I was on and that was MANY of them were filled to the gills always at brink of or at oversold conditions. Dang I miss Corky's & Interstate BBQ in MEM..
Even the MSP-MEM D10 flights were filled to the max .
Loved the guppy flights from MEM-BNA on that ARJ.
 
TheGeordielad
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:08 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm

Could we see delta add Frankfurt to MSP list of destinations as well as PEK?
 
ILUVDC10S
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:56 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 8:48 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
Could we see delta add Frankfurt to MSP list of destinations as well as PEK?

If they did add the FRA flight how much would that take away from the DTW flight? plus the hub to hub traffic from MSP-DTW to catch the DTW-FRA flight?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 8:53 pm

ILUVDC10S wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
ILUVDC10S wrote:

Well Thank you for confirming I was right after all ! And that I DO know alot about the airline business after all ! I owe ya one! think Crow s being served for Dinner in ATL & on Airliners.net right about now LOLOLOL. thank you for making my day !!!


That is basically the "urban legend" version. In reality, fuel prices were soaring in 2005 and part of bankruptcy law changes (under the BAPCPA of 2005) was that after companies filed for bankruptcy the essentially had to pre-pay utility (i.e. fuel) bills and that would have sucked up the majority of DL/NW's remaining cash and required them to get much more financing for their bankruptcy reorganization. The new law went into effect on 10/15/05 but the federal courts starting winding down cases under the old law on 9/15 so both carriers filed C11 on the very last possible day - 9/14/05. It wasn't some sort of conspiracy; it was so both carriers could save cash and more easily finance their inevitable trip through bankruptcy court...


Respectfully, Have a issue with the facts? Not only have I shown it on here others have too . Sorry sometimes its tough to eat a truth hurts doughnut huh?


I respect facts however I don't see any in that statement. It is all conjecture and hearsay.
 
User avatar
SteveXC500
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 9:46 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
Honestly, MSP is one of my fav airports just because if I have a long layover, I know I can find some time to entertain myself with shopping and food.

With a huge Nordic/Scandinavian population, it's no doubt that Norwegian has them on their radar, and will likely announce service there for next summer. I think that's not a question of if but when.

I think the other one is Jetblue, that's a huge hole in their network. Huge midwest population that is known for brand loyalty of customer service, B6 has only won the JD power for 12 years non stop, I think they finally lost it to WN this year.... Jetblue to West coast, Florida, NYC and BOS all places people in MSP wanna go... Would not surprise me, should have announced it years ago, wouldn't surprise meme if they announced it tomorrow.


I know MSP's Air Service development director and he is hoping B6 will be here in 2018. MSP is now their largest unserved market and MSP has been making strong pitches to lure them.

I would like to see an SY/B6 partnership. Maybe B6 can codeshare on SY's MSP-JFK flights and operate BOS and FLL with their own metal.



Over the last couple years, I've sent more than a few emails to JetBlue, practically pleading for them to enter the MSP market. I had never thought about the idea of a code sharing arrangement with SY, but damn, if that isn't a great idea! JetBlue has such a strong presence in the Caribbean and it would be great to have a link between SY and B6 to get the wintertime vacationers from MSP to those Caribbean destinations not served by SY.


Curious what would SY need B6 for? They do well enough on their own to most of the country and the Carribean.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 9:52 pm

[quote="WPvsMW" I predict DL will do everything it can to move the HND slot to ex-SEA and invite KE to "try" ICN/MSP.[/quote]

That cannot happen. If DL drops MSP-HND the slot automatically goes to AA for DFW-HND. That was made very clear when the MSP-HND route was awarded.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12337
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: MSP - Role In DL Network and Expansion Potential

Sun May 14, 2017 10:01 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
I predict DL will do everything it can to move the HND slot to ex-SEA and invite KE to "try" ICN/MSP.


That cannot happen. If DL drops MSP-HND the slot automatically goes to AA for DFW-HND. That was made very clear when the MSP-HND route was awarded.


I tend to think that DL would not have applied for and accepted the slot in that circumstance if it did not have at least some interest in MSP-TYO long term.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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