Stitch wrote:

Spin it all you want, Airbus Aficionados. Boeing now has an offering in the 230-seat market and there is real demand for it amongst their operator base and you're going to see more than 43 of them delivered.

Based on what I am reading here, and by who, it honestly doesn't surprise me. At the end of the day, 5 days in the middle of a calendar year does not really matter. It never has. So who 'wins' a particular Air Show is meaningless.

But what this week has done is build quite a bit of momentum for the 737 MAX 10. Certainly more than I thought we'd see. In fact, it did better than even Boeing thought at the beginning of the show. And I am sure, more than anything, that's what has our more diehard Airbus Aficionados upset. It is not what it's done this week, it is that the MAX 10 is clearly more well-received than anticipated. It also makes the entire MAX family that much more appealing. Which makes coming RFP's in the future for years to come that much more competitive.

What I don't understand is the 'why.' It's not like the MAX's success takes anything away from what the NEO has done. :shrug:

Regards,

Hamlet69

mjoelnir wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

No, but I know what a firm order is, and that it is not the same as a MOU or LOI.

Let me be clear: no one is arguing they are the same. Furthermore, I am attorney - I know they are different. I don't understand why you are making personal attacks on posters. As I posted above, Airbus in their own PR from other airshows included in their "new" orders: (1) firm orders and (2) commitments. Boeing is do the same here. If you want to call it spin, fine, but both companies are consistent. As such, it is fair for a poster to say X orders and commitments. Because you have an issue with it, don't take that out on posters on this forum.

Please keep this civil.

One poster tells me I know nothing about accounting because I make a difference between a firm order, a MOU and a LOI.

The other poster asked if I am a native speaker of English.

IF EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, WHY ATTACK ME FOR MAKING A DIFFERENCE?????

I asked to better understand where we were having differences based on our languages - not as an attack.

mjoelnir wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also according to Boeing some of those conversions were because airlines wanted the plane earlier than when Boeing had open slots for. Which means the only choice you have is to either wait or convert.

That is about the strangest point. How does the coming of the 737-10 opens up new slots? It will be build on the same lines as the other 737MAX. One slot opened up for the 737-10 would push one slot for a 737-7/8/9 backwards. When customers converting to 737-10 were pulled forward, who was pushed to the back? Was it converting to get you frames or either you have to wait longer?

Stop typing for a moment, and re-read the excellent and informative Leeham article linked above by Revelation: Propelled by MAX 10, Boeing thumps Airbus at Paris Air Show.

It may help to un-confuse you.

BTW, let me know if you have problems translating/understanding the word 'thumps'. -ir

mjoelnir wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also according to Boeing some of those conversions were because airlines wanted the plane earlier than when Boeing had open slots for. Which means the only choice you have is to either wait or convert.

That is about the strangest point. How does the coming of the 737-10 opens up new slots? It will be build on the same lines as the other 737MAX. One slot opened up for the 737-10 would push one slot for a 737-7/8/9 backwards. When customers converting to 737-10 were pulled forward, who was pushed to the back? Was it converting to get you frames or either you have to wait longer?

I am sorry, I know a lot of people on this forum do not actually work in the industry. But just being around this forum, you should be able to pick up on how this works (unless you are purposely choosing not to?).

Let's use CDB Leasing's order as an example: they converted 6 MAX 8 orders into MAX 10's, then ordered 42 MAX 8's and an additional 4 MAX 10's. Why convert the 6, only to add more?

Because what they did from a production standpoint is convert 6 2020-2022 MAX 8 slots into MAX 10's so they could get them as soon as possible. Then they ordered more for when new slots were actually available (2022+).

Conversions do not open new slots. What they do in this case is allow earlier delivery than if they just waited and placed a new order, which would put them at the back of the queue.

Regards,

Hamlet69

IslandRob wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also according to Boeing some of those conversions were because airlines wanted the plane earlier than when Boeing had open slots for. Which means the only choice you have is to either wait or convert.

That is about the strangest point. How does the coming of the 737-10 opens up new slots? It will be build on the same lines as the other 737MAX. One slot opened up for the 737-10 would push one slot for a 737-7/8/9 backwards. When customers converting to 737-10 were pulled forward, who was pushed to the back? Was it converting to get you frames or either you have to wait longer?

Stop typing for a moment, and re-read the excellent and informative Leeham article linked above by Revelation: Propelled by MAX 10, Boeing thumps Airbus at Paris Air Show.

It may help to un-confuse you.

BTW, let me know if you have problems translating/understanding the word 'thumps'. -ir

Although I'm not a fan of Leeham (yes, I think he is biased AT TIMES), I appreciate some of the reporting in this one. The slots is interesting, and I liked the following: "Mounir said he expects more 777 Classic and 777X orders this year." Fingers crossed.

Good Gawd.. Everyone just hush and get back to talking about Boeing Orders.

mjoelnir wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

No, but I know what a firm order is, and that it is not the same as a MOU or LOI.

Let me be clear: no one is arguing they are the same. Furthermore, I am attorney - I know they are different. I don't understand why you are making personal attacks on posters. As I posted above, Airbus in their own PR from other airshows included in their "new" orders: (1) firm orders and (2) commitments. Boeing is do the same here. If you want to call it spin, fine, but both companies are consistent. As such, it is fair for a poster to say X orders and commitments. Because you have an issue with it, don't take that out on posters on this forum.

Please keep this civil.

One poster tells me I know nothing about accounting because I make a difference between a firm order, a MOU and a LOI.

The other poster asked if I am a native speaker of English.

IF EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, WHY ATTACK ME FOR MAKING A DIFFERENCE?????

It's like going to an engagement party and telling the future bride and groom (or two brides, or two grooms) that there's no need for a party till after the wedding.

Hey, you two might get in a fight and call it all off, after all...

Can't you just be happy?

caoimhin wrote:

More sour grapes from the drearily predictable gentleman (Airbus fan) from Iceland. All we need is Wlederling in here and it will really be a party.

It was a good show for both manufacturers. Silly to try to denigrate Boeing for better-than-expected performance with the MAX10. It was an impressive outcome I think few expected.

It's embarrassing to go through some of the current Boeing/MAX/MoM threads right now and see certain posters doing everything they can to disparage or others cast shade on them. The FOE button does work well, but I've only used it twice and I hate to do it anymore because you lose context in the thread. However, at some point you just feel insulted to be put through the nonsense.

rheinwaldner wrote:

Polot wrote:

I don't recall these complaints when A320 customers switch their orders to A321s.

Because switching between existing versions (A320 -> A321) is not the same that happened in Paris. Boeing introduced a completely new version just to attract mostly some business they anyway already had.
In other words: a new design mostly just grabbed sales from other Boeing MAX products and not from the competition. You can build 737 versions for any possible number of seat rows, but if your existing customers just shift the demand between those subversions, you have won nothing (with MAX7/8/9/10 you already get 737s with pretty finely graduated lengths)....

So before we had the MAX 10, Boeing was bad because they were losing sales to the A321neo. Airlines converting their A320s to A321s was a sign of strength in the marketplace, of meeting their customer's needs. Now that we have the MAX 10, Boeing is bad because their customers want it. Airlines converting their MAX 8s to MAX 10s is a sign of weakness in the marketplace, of not meeting their customer's needs. Got it. Rheinwaldner = Boeing is Bad.

mjoelnir wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also according to Boeing some of those conversions were because airlines wanted the plane earlier than when Boeing had open slots for. Which means the only choice you have is to either wait or convert.

That is about the strangest point. How does the coming of the 737-10 opens up new slots? It will be build on the same lines as the other 737MAX. One slot opened up for the 737-10 would push one slot for a 737-7/8/9 backwards. When customers converting to 737-10 were pulled forward, who was pushed to the back? Was it converting to get you frames or either you have to wait longer?

If there are not many slots for a MAX in 2020 (for example), you won't be able to get this MAX 10 yet. However, if you have slots already for a MAX 8/9 in 2020, you can swap those for the more desirable/long awaited/A321-like MAX 10 and get it as soon as possible. To me, the conversions are as much as anything a sign that Airbus had the right product at the right time with the A321neo, and now Boeing is finally able to offer a similar option to their customers, who are apparently thrilled to have it.

But, as above, got it. MJOELNIR = Boeing is Bad.

At the end of the day... The only thing that matters here is that Boeing started the month with 3,697 Max's on order. (2 deliveries from 3699 backlog)

After the PAS, that backlog will reach more than 4,250 Max's in the backlog when all orders/commitments are finalized. NOT counting options or swaps.

And more than 340 max's in that backlog will be 737-10's...

Frankly, I don't understand why people put so much importance on airshow orders, LOIs. MoUs, etc.

The real important numbers are actually deliveries because these mean that the transaction is finalised, invoiced and paid up, thereby allowing the respective companies to report their profits officially. So lets see how many deliveries Airbus and Boeing will make this year. That is more important than order numbers at fancy airshows.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

caoimhin wrote:

More sour grapes from the drearily predictable gentleman (Airbus fan) from Iceland. All we need is Wlederling in here and it will really be a party.

It was a good show for both manufacturers. Silly to try to denigrate Boeing for better-than-expected performance with the MAX10. It was an impressive outcome I think few expected.

It's embarrassing to go through some of the current Boeing/MAX/MoM threads right now and see certain posters doing everything they can to disparage or others cast shade on them. The FOE button does work well, but I've only used it twice and I hate to do it anymore because you lose context in the thread. However, at some point you just feel insulted to be put through the nonsense.

rheinwaldner wrote:

Polot wrote:

I don't recall these complaints when A320 customers switch their orders to A321s.

Because switching between existing versions (A320 -> A321) is not the same that happened in Paris. Boeing introduced a completely new version just to attract mostly some business they anyway already had.
In other words: a new design mostly just grabbed sales from other Boeing MAX products and not from the competition. You can build 737 versions for any possible number of seat rows, but if your existing customers just shift the demand between those subversions, you have won nothing (with MAX7/8/9/10 you already get 737s with pretty finely graduated lengths)....

So before we had the MAX 10, Boeing was bad because they were losing sales to the A321neo. Airlines converting their A320s to A321s was a sign of strength in the marketplace, of meeting their customer's needs. Now that we have the MAX 10, Boeing is bad because their customers want it. Airlines converting their MAX 8s to MAX 10s is a sign of weakness in the marketplace, of not meeting their customer's needs. Got it. Rheinwaldner = Boeing is Bad.

mjoelnir wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also according to Boeing some of those conversions were because airlines wanted the plane earlier than when Boeing had open slots for. Which means the only choice you have is to either wait or convert.

That is about the strangest point. How does the coming of the 737-10 opens up new slots? It will be build on the same lines as the other 737MAX. One slot opened up for the 737-10 would push one slot for a 737-7/8/9 backwards. When customers converting to 737-10 were pulled forward, who was pushed to the back? Was it converting to get you frames or either you have to wait longer?

If there are not many slots for a MAX in 2020 (for example), you won't be able to get this MAX 10 yet. However, if you have slots already for a MAX 8/9 in 2020, you can swap those for the more desirable/long awaited/A321-like MAX 10 and get it as soon as possible. To me, the conversions are as much as anything a sign that Airbus had the right product at the right time with the A321neo, and now Boeing is finally able to offer a similar option to their customers, who are apparently thrilled to have it.

But, as above, got it. MJOELNIR = Boeing is Bad.

Have I said that Boeing is bad? The only thing I am pointing out what is firm orders, what is MOU and a LOI and that the bulk is conversions. All facts nothing else.

When Airbus had the first MOU with Iran Airs , it was pointed out that that were not orders , but had to be confirmed. Completely right. I can show endless examples. Here on on A.net a MOU has never been accepted as an order, a conversion never as a new order.
But now suddenly all distinctions are of and there are 361 new orders for 737-10. I understand I spoil the party.

Seriously guys. ENOUGH with the arguments over LOIs, MOUs, IOUs. ENOUGH! Take your arguments to another thread if you must continue this pathetic war on proving your manliness on what the absolute definitions are of stuff that 99.9999999% of the world does not give a flying F about. Mods : the show is over, this thread is done so I think now would be the perfect time to lock it. Thank you.