Aeroplane123
Topic Author
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:49 am

Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:23 pm

How come many of the major airlines in Europe don't take advantage of flying in another country? Allow me to explain, low cost airlines (Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizz, etc) will fly domestic routes in a country they aren't registered in. I realize they are allowed to do this under the EU airspace thing but why doesn't an airline like SAS for example fly domestic in Italy? It seems only the low cost airlines take advantage of this. Anyways just curious to see why major airlines avoid setting their route map the same way low cost airlines do.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2829
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:39 pm

Don't know, might be more cost effective to take over an airline than to build up a route network, Lufthansa Italia failed. And most network carriers need to fly to a hub and relay on connecting to long haul to generate revenue, don't know if it is still true, but most legacy carriers in Europe lost money on their European network.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LGAviation
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:46 pm

Also, European regional identities are still much much stronger than they are in the US and people are also far more accustomed to their previous flag carriers. For LH Group, Austrian and Swiss are much more popular within Austria and Switzerland than Lufty could ever be. Also, if you have to set up a different operation for language and labour reasons anyways, you might as well set up a local brand
2017: ACE AMS BRE CDG CPH DCA DUB FRA HAM ICN JFK KEF LCY LGW LHR NBO OSL ROR STN VFA
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:59 pm

Indeed it's because Europeans still got a strong association between airlines and countries. This goes specially for flag carriers. LCCs aren't flag carriers and that's the reason they can do this and flag carriers can't. Like already said before, Lufthansa Italia failed because Lufthansa is a brand name associated with Germany and not with Italy.

But even non flag carriers struggle in countries that are not their own. Transavia for example is very well known in the Netherlands and making the most of their profit there. They've tried to set up operations in Denmark in the past, but failed. Their French operations aren't as succesful as their Dutch operations. They're also closing their Munich base because they just aren't succesful enough there.

Europe is very different from America. America is one country and no matter where in the country you are, it's all just as American as another place. That's not the case in Europe. Europe consists of many countries, each with their own national habits and national airlines.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:10 pm

They have done, though often through a local brand, like SAS did in Spain. Also BA messed in Germany. Both happened quite some time ago and flopped hardly. More recently LH Italia was neither a big success story, without talking about their adventures in Britain.
Rather than domestic that face a hard competition also from trains, I would expect international routes between other countries, particularly routes dominated by a strong airline or alliance. Such routes could be flown even without a base as triangle routes, maybe feeding a TATL partner on a non-alliance destination.

After the inevitable falls of Alitalia and Air Berlin - or even before that - we may expect some activity from major carriers, even though they are likely to occur via low-cost arms (Vueling, Eurowings, Transavia) rather than any mainline airline directly. Other than that, I would not hold my breath.

Indeed SAS has set some bases in other countries, but may not be in the position to make massive expansion from there, but who knows. Smaller legacy carriers have even smaller resources unless they have some crazy investors. (Only imaginable exception might be AY to set a base in Germany or around, but I do not consider it very likely).
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:20 pm

SAS is indeed currently trying, they now hold an Irish AOC and it's expected that they will use that for some flights out of other parts of Europe. However, I don't think it'll work for them. There's a reason SAS stands for Scandinavian Airline System. That Scandinavian really means something. I think SAS Ireland will be the next airline to fail.

LOT Polish Airlines is smart enough not to step outside their own country. They understand the meaning of the word Polish in their airline title. Poland is their country, their home market. That's where they are strong. Outside Poland people may know them, but only associate them with Poland. If you want to go to Poland or transfer in Poland, you consider LOT. If you don't, you don't even think about them.
 
Andy33
Posts: 1725
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:07 am

On the long-haul front, Air France put a toe in the water with LHR-LAX, and got it bitten off by BA, VS, and the US carriers. Didn't last long.
BA has a Paris based subsidiary, OpenSkies, with 3 elderly 757s and a 763, flying to JFK and EWR. That seems to have settled in, but it has its own French AOC.

It would certainly be possible for an airline with an AOC in any Common Aviation Area country to fly any route wholly within the Common Aviation Area, and that's a vast population to serve. A lot of the movements are always going to be made by surface transport as the added time penalties caused by getting to the airport, checking in, going through security, boarding, and getting from the airport to final destination are too much to outweigh the speed advantage of planes - especially with high speed rail in the equation.
 
Someone83
Posts: 3457
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:15 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
SAS is indeed currently trying, they now hold an Irish AOC and it's expected that they will use that for some flights out of other parts of Europe. However, I don't think it'll work for them. There's a reason SAS stands for Scandinavian Airline System. That Scandinavian really means something. I think SAS Ireland will be the next airline to fail.


You have misunderstood. It is really not for flying between other parts of Europe, but to be used on flights such as UK-Scandinavia and Spain-Scandinavia to reduce costs
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:31 am

So far no legacy carrier has intended to establish a truly European, non-national, or global brand, despite all consolidation. The only example of an international brand is SAS that anchored itself in Scandinavia. All others purposefully keep their national associations, even some LCC's, but people do not care so much of the brand of the LCC.

As a brand, Lufthansa is not nominally German, though most people who have read their history associate Hansa to Germany. Hence they did not dare to expand the brand to Austria and Switzerland.

Most people, however, do not even care of the brand of the legacy carrier either, as they (or their employers) just select the cheapest or the most convenient flight from point A to point B. Hence there is always a chance for a cost effective airline selling connecting flights to expand wherever allowed. The ultimate reason for the failure of some legacy carriers abroad may be that their cost structures are just not competitive.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:36 am

I don't think it's the brand issue many of you see here. An airline name doesn't get more national affiliation than Norwegian, yet they fly literally everywhere in Europe.
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:17 am

aviationaware wrote:
I don't think it's the brand issue many of you see here. An airline name doesn't get more national affiliation than Norwegian, yet they fly literally everywhere in Europe.


Ryanair flies plenty of "internal" routes in most of the EU countries and they are officially an Irish airline.
 
Dafydd
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 9:41 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:40 am

What about the Norwegian brand doing Spanish domestic hops? I think it's more of a brand name now as opposed to being associated with Norway.
 
greg85
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:45 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:03 am

I think the real answer to your question is, Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz etc ARE europes major airlines. They are now far larger than airlines like KLM or BA. Part of the reason they are now so big is because they were willing to do things like, have foreign bases and routes that start and end outside of the country of registration. Funny you mentioned SAS, I think they are about to start trying to compete and open new bases.
 
User avatar
ro1960
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:19 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:21 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
But even non flag carriers struggle in countries that are not their own. Transavia for example is very well known in the Netherlands and making the most of their profit there. They've tried to set up operations in Denmark in the past, but failed. Their French operations aren't as succesful as their Dutch operations.


Regarding Transavia France they're not struggling because they're not a French brand. They're just limited on expansion due to agreements with pilots that limit the number of aircraft operated.
 
EIDL
Posts: 852
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:44 pm

Legacies are more reliant on FF bases and local brand recognition than LCCs are. Many of them have tried and basically all have failed - EI had a LGW hub for a while for instance.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:56 pm

aviationaware wrote:
I don't think it's the brand issue many of you see here. An airline name doesn't get more national affiliation than Norwegian, yet they fly literally everywhere in Europe.


But still the most of their operations are in Norway. There's hardly an airport to be found anywhere in Norway that isn't served by Norwegian.

What also matters is that Norwegian, like all European LCCs, is a relatively young airline. They don't have the history of being a national airline before European airspace opened. History plays a more important role than some people think here. Besides, Norwegian was never the official flag carrier of Norway. That has always been SAS. Norwegian still does have a strong background in Norway, there's hardly an airport to be found anywhere in Norway that isn't served by Norwegian. Their presence there is huge, far bigger than in any other country. Still because they're not a flag carrier they were able to expand elsewhere in Europe.

I've already mentioned history, the days before European airspace opened. Back then KLM only had the right to fly in and out of the Netherlands and Lufthansa only had the right to fly in and out of Germany (west Germany back then, although the name Lufthansa dates back much further). Even after the European airspace opened the national association of the airlines remained. That is, for the airlines that were around back then. This is what makes Europe different from America because America has always been one airspace. In Europe that's not the case.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:02 pm

EIDL wrote:
Legacies are more reliant on FF bases and local brand recognition than LCCs are. Many of them have tried and basically all have failed - EI had a LGW hub for a while for instance.


That's because Aer Lingus is a flag carrier, they were "the Irish airline" before European airspace opened up. They belong in Ireland, they're associated with Ireland.

Ryanair is also Irish, but their growth took place after European airspace opened up. That's what makes them different from Aer Lingus, which is a much older airline. Ryanair doesn't have the history that Aer Lingus has, and that's actually a benefit for Ryanair and a handicap for Aer Lingus.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:08 pm

AY in the late 90s tried a base at ARN, but it failed. They had OSL, BGO, CPH, MAN, MIL, BER, MAD, LGW, BRU and other destinations, but it only lasted a few years. And still they weren't far from home...
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:21 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
AY in the late 90s tried a base at ARN, but it failed. They had OSL, BGO, CPH, MAN, MIL, BER, MAD, LGW, BRU and other destinations, but it only lasted a few years. And still they weren't far from home...


Not far from home, but still in a place that people don't associate with that airline. That makes it just doesn't make sense.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1405
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:48 pm

SAS had Blue1 (SASFinland) in HEL, the brand was carefully tailored for the Finnish customers but it all faded away. I still miss it.

Now Norwegian operate many of the former Blue1 routes, domestic and Euro routes
 
User avatar
BobPatterson
Posts: 2414
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:38 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
I don't think it's the brand issue many of you see here. An airline name doesn't get more national affiliation than Norwegian, yet they fly literally everywhere in Europe.


But still the most of their operations are in Norway. There's hardly an airport to be found anywhere in Norway that isn't served by Norwegian.

According to their 2015 annual report, in counting passengers by country of original, Norway now accounts for a minor portion of Norwegian's business. Also, the annual growth of passengers in Norway is minuscule compared to everywhere else.

Finally, domestic revenues were credited for about 1/3 of Norwegian's total volume.

This reminds me very much of the operations of Alaska Airlines, growing by leaps and bounds beyond the home area.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1001
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:06 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Transavia for example is very well known in the Netherlands and making the most of their profit there. They've tried to set up operations in Denmark in the past, but failed.


Although that was more to do with their horrible customer service, on the verge of the criminally negligent, rather than the brand. They had no problems filling their planes with paying passengers, but they ruined it for themselves by not living up to the EU passenger compensation rules amongst other things.
 
oslmgm
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:17 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
(...) There's hardly an airport to be found anywhere in Norway that isn't served by Norwegian. (...)

There are lots of airports in Norway not served by Norwegian, but those are smaller airports, of course. I got curious, so I compared the destinations (in Norway) served by Norwegian and SAS:

    - Norwegian: 16 airports
    - SAS: 15 airports

However, on the SAS website you can book flights to 47 destinations in Norway, because they interline with Wiederøe.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Airlines in Europe

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 pm

Ryanair is Europes largest airline and flys everywhere in Europe so the question isn't really valid

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos