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DexSwart
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:52 am

Immediate airlines that came to my mind included ET and TK, possibly some Indian and other Asian airlines. Maybe Lion Air and Vietjet?

Either way, what fantastic news!

The more types of aircraft, the better for spotters :D
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OA940
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:01 am

juliuswong wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I think that this plane can really succeed. It already has 240 orders!!! Btw so far orders/MoU's/Anything else for the MAX 10:

TUI Group: 18x 737 MAX 10
CDB Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10
GECAS: 20x 737 MAX 10
BOC Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10

A total of 58 known orders. All sourced from http://www.luchtzak.be

You missed out Tibet Financial Leasing for unknown amount and Spicejet 20 MAX10, conversion from MAX8 order.


My bad. I didn't see that on the site. That's the problem with PAS and Farnborough. The orders just keep on coming throughout the day. Probably should wait until Day 1 is over.
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crimsonchin
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:04 am

Nice to see they're already fudging numbers to try to put the plane on par with the 321NEO.

800nm with aux tanks, right.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:10 am

Well it's a marketing slide, of course it is designed to make Boeing look as good as possible. The only issue is that they didn't have an aux tank in the 737 for the comparison. Plenty of A321s are flying <800nm routes with ACTs (they may be easily removeable, but airlines generally don't regularly add/remove them between flights).

Boeing would probably counter that with one ACT the A321 has around the same fuel capacity as the 737 so that's why they added it.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:11 am

juliuswong wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I think that this plane can really succeed. It already has 240 orders!!! Btw so far orders/MoU's/Anything else for the MAX 10:

TUI Group: 18x 737 MAX 10
CDB Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10
GECAS: 20x 737 MAX 10
BOC Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10

A total of 58 known orders. All sourced from http://www.luchtzak.be

You missed out Tibet Financial Leasing for unknown amount and Spicejet 20 MAX10, conversion from MAX8 order.

So, I guess 4 more customers for around 140 new aircraft to be announced. I guess the 'Lion's' share of those will be announced tomorrow, for the biggest effect.
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Strato2
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:39 am

[twoid][/twoid]
Polot wrote:
I suspect the real world seating configuration between the 737-10 and A321 will generally be about the same. Not everyone is going to be stuffing 240 seats into the A321.


Huh. Because you say so? I suspect the real world difference will be bigger. Not everyone will be stuffing 230 seats into the MAX10.
 
Aieron
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:40 am

"quote EPA001 wrote:
Well, they might have been forced into launching the MAX-program but the number of sales proves them right. If they would not have launched the MAX-program the A320-neo-series would have "eaten them alive" (though Airbus could never deliver that many aircraft to that potential number of customers).

So the MAX might not be the best offering in the market, and might be a result of adapting to the strategy Airbus has unfolded, but economically it has made sense enough for Boeing and it's customers. unquote".


Anyways what i meant was boeing should have offered the max 10 in the first place as the ng 900er never really competed well with the A321 , sales figures speaks forthemselves. the 900 was a flop model so was the 900er .
 
SeJoWa
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:41 am

VSMUT wrote:
On the rotation issue: Looking at all the images and videos, it seems as if the stretch primarily goes into the forward fuselage. Landing-gear looks almost like the old one, any extension or trailing-arm must be relatively small.


Precisely. It looks really front-heavy to me, more so with the engines thrust out.
 
Strato2
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:42 am

So the economics are promised to be the same as with the A321Neo but are they compared with the LEAP version or the GTF version which supposedly will get huge efficiency jumps in the near future?
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:44 am

Amiga500 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Quietly tucked in the bottom of that chart is a legend that says "800Nm trip".


Even better is that the Airbus' are carrying 1 ACT to make that trip.


Why mention the AUX I wonder, it would maybe add 500KG to the weight so why bother?

Unless.. you are running this 800Nm trip with full tanks in which case you now get to put another 15,000l (approx 12tonnes) of fuel in the A321, that would make a difference to the trip cost.

But Boeing would never do that to fudge the numbers now would they...
BV
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:46 am

Strato2 wrote:
So the economics are promised to be the same as with the A321Neo but are they compared with the LEAP version or the GTF version which supposedly will get huge efficiency jumps in the near future?


That's an interesting part of the story.

P&W will further improve GTF fuel burn by 3% by 2019. By the time the MAX 10 enters service in 2020, the A321neo may be ahead in terms of fuel economics.
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juliuswong
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:00 pm

frigatebird wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I think that this plane can really succeed. It already has 240 orders!!! Btw so far orders/MoU's/Anything else for the MAX 10:

TUI Group: 18x 737 MAX 10
CDB Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10
GECAS: 20x 737 MAX 10
BOC Aviation: 10x 737 MAX 10

A total of 58 known orders. All sourced from http://www.luchtzak.be

You missed out Tibet Financial Leasing for unknown amount and Spicejet 20 MAX10, conversion from MAX8 order.

So, I guess 4 more customers for around 140 new aircraft to be announced. I guess the 'Lion's' share of those will be announced tomorrow, for the biggest effect.

Yea, around there, more than half of 240 orders have thus far been announced. I guess Lion Air will take the last hooray. I do supposed their agreement with Boeing allows them to change into any variant they desire??
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:02 pm

lot of the order seems to be conversions, even more than new orders. My guess it will be the 737-9 that bleeds.

The most interesting thing I have not seen yet. Does Boeing do a new MLG and if, how does it look or work.

regarding performance: Let us assume over the whole range of distances the A321neo and the 737-10 are about even. How are is the field performance of the 737-10? The technical data advertised are a bit thin.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:07 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Yea, around there, more than half of 240 orders have thus far been announced. I guess Lion Air will take the last hooray. I do supposed their agreement with Boeing allows them to change into any variant they desire??

Jet Airways is in queue as well.
 
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OA940
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:26 pm

juliuswong wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
You missed out Tibet Financial Leasing for unknown amount and Spicejet 20 MAX10, conversion from MAX8 order.

So, I guess 4 more customers for around 140 new aircraft to be announced. I guess the 'Lion's' share of those will be announced tomorrow, for the biggest effect.

Yea, around there, more than half of 240 orders have thus far been announced. I guess Lion Air will take the last hooray. I do supposed their agreement with Boeing allows them to change into any variant they desire??


Considering their MAX 9 orders I guess they may even order more to get past the 240 current orders (maybe why they are saved for later).
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Alexdk
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Why couldn't they just name this aircraft MAX 9 and drop the previous 9? Who needs current MAX 9 now?
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
They probably thought:
- Our current mix of configurations (-700, -800, -900ER) is competitive against their peer
- If we add a next generation engine, we will stay competitive.

Boeing probably was listening to their customers back in 2011. Most of the demand for bigger models has come in the last 2-3 years long after the MAX product was launched. The real test is what does management do when their previous decision was wrong? Here Boeing is getting it right: they are adapting.

Does it cannibalize the MAX9? Irrelevant. The MAX9 is sunk cost. If the MAX10 wins orders the MAX9 would have lost to the A321, then it is an investment well made.


I think Boeing wanted a quick and cheap solution when they got with their pence down: airlines clearly preferred a faster (-MAX series) solution to a better one (new design). This solution was to re-engine the current series, except the -600.


And to be fair, that's exactly what Airbus did with the A320neo, too.

Dutchy wrote:
At that moment, it was perfectly logical not to make the -900 bigger into the -Max10, because of the extra cost and extra time needed. But the market has discided: A321Neo much better than the B737-9, so a better product was needed and they indeed adapted by creating the -MAX10.


I really don't think it would have added significant development scope had the eventual MAX7 and MAX10 changes been incorporated from the start. They are pretty minimal changes in the grand scheme of things. I simply think Boeing assessed there was no need for a bigger mode.

Dutchy wrote:
You are absolutely right, the MAX9 are sunk cost, so it doesn't matter anymore, they need to gain ground on the A321. They might as well keep the MAX9 around for the odd ball order.


I was sort of hoping they would discontinue the MAX9 and convert the remaining backlog to MAX10s so that we could have a variant that's even less common than the 737-100. :stirthepot:

Astuteman nailed it on the head, this is the airplane Boeing should have offered a along. But, that's hindsight.
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:31 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
Unless.. you are running this 800Nm trip with full tanks in which case you now get to put another 15,000l (approx 12tonnes) of fuel in the A321, that would make a difference to the trip cost.

1) An ACT doesn't add anywhere close to 15,000 l of fuel. An ACT adds ~3000 l of fuel.
2) Boeing would argue it included the ACT because a) many operators have them on the A321 and don't remove them for shorter flights, and b), with 1 ACT the A321 has closest equivalent fuel capacity as the 737 (26,692 l vs 25,817 l for the 737. A321 with no ACTs is 23,700 l).
3) Comparisons are always skewed in marketing slides, but I doubt Boeing is comparing fully fueled A321 to a 737 that has just the required fuel for the trip.
4) Any extra weight (even if it ~500kg) against the 737 helps Boeing.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 pm

SeJoWa wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
On the rotation issue: Looking at all the images and videos, it seems as if the stretch primarily goes into the forward fuselage. Landing-gear looks almost like the old one, any extension or trailing-arm must be relatively small.


Precisely. It looks really front-heavy to me, more so with the engines thrust out.


I can't help but wonder how they are going to counteract this. If they place more weight in the front, then they have to increase the weight in the aft as well, in order to keep the CG within limits. How much ballast are they planning to place in the rear to counteract this? This really can't be beneficial when it comes to holding weight down.
 
Someone83
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 pm

Is there actually any new orders from Boeing or just conversions?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:38 pm

Aieron wrote:
What was boeing management thinking when they launched the max series , it seems they werent listning to their customers , now you have the max 10 which will canabalise the max 9 and what about mom , i dont think boeing was ever serious in a 757 replacement.

They did listen to their customers. The customers wanted the gains of the new generation engines as soon as possible.

StTim wrote:
You could say that but if I was a Boeing shareholder I would think the cost of development of the MAX9 (and the initial plans for the MAX7) were wasted money. This is a much better placed frame than the 900/9 ever was. Now they need to deliver it for little additional spend/reduction in commonality.

You being a Boeing stockholder? LOL!

In any case, it was not wasted money. They already had the -900 and -900ER on the market with many important customers such as UA and DL lined up to buy them, and they knew whatever they would do beyond the MAX9 would take more time and money to figure out.

KarelXWB wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
So the economics are promised to be the same as with the A321Neo but are they compared with the LEAP version or the GTF version which supposedly will get huge efficiency jumps in the near future?


That's an interesting part of the story.

P&W will further improve GTF fuel burn by 3% by 2019. By the time the MAX 10 enters service in 2020, the A321neo may be ahead in terms of fuel economics.

It's PW we're talking about, let's wait to see what actually happens.
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It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:40 pm

Strato2 wrote:
So the economics are promised to be the same as with the A321Neo but are they compared with the LEAP version or the GTF version which supposedly will get huge efficiency jumps in the near future?


It's fair to ask if Boeing is comparing a 2021-spec Max10 to a 2017 A321Neo.

Not 'promised to be the same.' 5% better - see the original post. 5% improvement in fuel burn vs. a competitor is a big deal in this business.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Alexdk wrote:
Why couldn't they just name this aircraft MAX 9 and drop the previous 9? Who needs current MAX 9 now?


What do you propose Boeing do with this:

ImageBoeing 737 MAX 9 N7379E LN6250 by Huy Do, on Flickr

And this?

ImageBoeing 737 MAX 9 Lion Air N739EX LN6308 by Huy Do, on Flickr

They're kind of big for lawn ornaments, and I doubt their future operators are going to want to wait a few years for the -10.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
SeJoWa wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
On the rotation issue: Looking at all the images and videos, it seems as if the stretch primarily goes into the forward fuselage. Landing-gear looks almost like the old one, any extension or trailing-arm must be relatively small.


Precisely. It looks really front-heavy to me, more so with the engines thrust out.


I can't help but wonder how they are going to counteract this. If they place more weight in the front, then they have to increase the weight in the aft as well, in order to keep the CG within limits. How much ballast are they planning to place in the rear to counteract this? This really can't be beneficial when it comes to holding weight down.


The Bloomberg article posted earlier ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... bigger-737 ) says:

The stretched version of the 737 will be achieved by adding a 40-inch (102-centimeter) segment in front of the plane’s wings, and a 26-inch plug behind them, with the wings themselves slightly modified to reduce drag at lower speeds. In order to carry the extra payload, the Max 10 will be equipped with larger, higher-thrust engines. The engines’ position on the wings will be moved to affect the aircraft’s center of gravity.

The plane will also get taller landing gear to help resolve balance and tail-skid issues that cropped up with the 737-900ER, Keith Leverkuhn, general manager of the Max program, said in an interview at the show site at Le Bourget Airport on Sunday. The longest earlier-generation model is prone to tipping up if baggage isn’t balanced carefully in the hold.


So hopefully those complaints about the -9 sitting on its :butthead: will be going away.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Not 'promised to be the same.' 5% better - see the original post. 5% improvement in fuel burn vs. a competitor is a big deal in this business.

It's called marketing. You compare your product under the best possible circumstances to the competitor's product in its worst. Like it or not, it's the way of the world.
Last edited by Revelation on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
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VC10er
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:54 pm

What are the top airlines that everyone thinks will take her?

United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?
AA has 100 MAX 8's (wiki)

I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?

Last, I assume the interior is the current "sky ceiling"...or have Boeing designed something even newer?
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VSMUT
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:58 pm

VC10er wrote:
What are the top airlines that everyone thinks will take her?

United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?
AA has 100 MAX 8's (wiki)

I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?


I don't see AA doing it, they have the A321, and need a 737-800 sized plane as well.

I would guess that the 3 biggest customers will be:
Ryanair
United
Lion Air
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:03 pm

So new engine version + new pylon?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
So hopefully those complaints about the -9 sitting on its will be going away.

I wonder if we will see a 737-9ER with some of the -10 improvements ported over to the -9 to increase its usability for longer flights.

VC10er wrote:
United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?

UA also has ~61 MAXs from the previous 73G commitment. I suspect if UA gets the -10 it would be from that order and not the -9s, a good portion of which will probably be delivered before the -10 is ready.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:13 pm

VC10er wrote:
What are the top airlines that everyone thinks will take her?

United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?
AA has 100 MAX 8's (wiki)

I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?

Last, I assume the interior is the current "sky ceiling"...or have Boeing designed something even newer?


Max10 offers very few improvements over Max9, but anyone with Max9 on order would lose their precious slots if they go with Max10.
Max200 is very much made for Ryanair. I don't think they will move away from it.

My final guess is:
1. Jet Airways (All fresh orders)
2. Lion Air (Mostly conversion from Max8)
3. SpiceJet - already announced.
 
A350
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:21 pm

That looks like a great midrange workhorse. While it might lack hot-and-high and field performance, its range is a perfect fit for millions of routes. It can do virtually everything within the the US' lower 48, EU mainland, China domestic etc.. Where are myriads of not-hot, not-high airports with 3-4 km runways around the world and as many busy 500-2000 nm routes between them. I can see it as the low CASM people mover in the fleets of legacies, LCCs, and leisure carriers. If you so desperately need all that performance, take a Max8 instead.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:23 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
lot of the order seems to be conversions, even more than new orders. My guess it will be the 737-9 that bleeds.


Someone83 wrote:
Is there actually any new orders from Boeing or just conversions?

Let's look at what has been announced so far to see to what extent what you say holds up:

BOC Aviation
10x new MAX 10s (MoU)

GECAS
20x conversions to MAX 10 from unspecified MAX variant. (Order)

CDB Aviation Lease Finance
6x conversions to MAX 10 from MAX 8, 4x new MAX 10s (MoU)

TUI Group
18x conversions to MAX 10 from unspecified MAX variant (Order)

Tibet Financial Leasing
20x new MAX 8s and 10s (MoU, breakdown not specified)

SpiceJet
20x conversions to MAX 10 from MAX 8, 20x new MAX 10s (MoU)

So on the basis of the 6 orders that have been announced, it is 34 (plus an unspecified number between 1 and 19 from Tibet Financial Leasing) new MAX 10s, and 64 conversions (of which 26 are from MAX 8 and 38 are from an unspecified variant). The 38 conversions from an unspecified variant are firm, the rest are MoUs.

V/F
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:27 pm

VC10er wrote:
What are the top airlines that everyone thinks will take her?

United has 100 MAX 9's, on order (wiki) I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?
AA has 100 MAX 8's (wiki)

I wonder if they will convert or add incremental units?

Last, I assume the interior is the current "sky ceiling"...or have Boeing designed something even newer?

Karel's first post mentions "sky interior" but nothing about current vs new.

https://leehamnews.com/ has some numbers:

Initial Orders:
BOC Aviation MOU for 10
GECAS: 20–converted from previous MAX deal
TUI, 18–converted from previous MAX deal.
CDB Leasing, 10, including 8 converted from previous MAX deal.
Tibet Financial Leasing, MOU 20
Spice Jet: 20 new orders, 20 conversions from MAX 8

And:

The number 240 announced by the two CEOs were not firm orders. As Boeing began to roll out the announcements within the hour, it became clear that many of those announced today were “commitments,” under Memorandums of Understanding (MOUs).

While MOUs of a new airplane program almost always covert to a firm order, MOUs nevertheless don’t get booked to Boeing’s backlog until they are.

Of the 118 commitments announced today, 66 of them were conversions from existing MAX orders, mostly MAX 8.

This might suggest the -10 is a good enough aircraft to shift orders away from the -8.

And a pretty picture:

Image

I like its proportions better than the -9. It'll be interesting to see what if any impact the landing gear changes have.
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It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:47 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Some technical specifications have been released, quoting a range of 3,215 nm:

Image
https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/876722210941136896

Interesting to note that the MAX 10 is only half a metre shorter than the original 707-120 (which was 44.22m or 145ft 1in in length)

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

Celebrating the Bicentenary of the Birth of Bahá'u'lláh, 21-22 October 2017
 
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ssteve
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
And a pretty picture:

Image

I like its proportions better than the -9. It'll be interesting to see what if any impact the landing gear changes have.


I like how there are as many rows as the 737-100 by the time you reach the overwing doors. The -100 and the MAX 10 side by side at the museum in Seattle will be a neat exhibit on evolution.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:58 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Interesting to note that the MAX 10 is only half a metre shorter than the original 707-120 (which was 44.22m or 145ft 1in in length)

Indeed, but the 707's huge wings allowed it to tank a lot more fuel, and the landing gear allowed it to carry that fuel.

Here you see P-8 (737 family) tanking from KC-135 (707 family).

Image

There's a good reason why the USAF and others still operate KC-135s even though they are 50+ years old -- they are very capable!
Last edited by Revelation on Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It is a deadly cancer on American society
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
Indeed, but the 707's huge wings allowed it to tank a lot more fuel, and the landing gear allowed it to carry that fuel.

It is has been in front of us the entire time and all of us here on A.net were too blind to see it. Obviously Boeing's MoM is going to be a 707MAX with 4 PW GTFs (the C Series ones should be fine). None of this super sized narrowbody or small twin aisle stuff.
 
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:05 pm

Polot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Indeed, but the 707's huge wings allowed it to tank a lot more fuel, and the landing gear allowed it to carry that fuel.

It is has been in front of us the entire time and all of us here on A.net were too blind to see it. Obviously Boeing's MoM is going to be a 707MAX with 4 PW GTFs (the C Series ones should be fine). None of this super sized narrowbody or small twin aisle stuff.

Sign me up! We've already had 707NG (i.e. KC-135R with CFM-56 power), it's time for 707MAX!
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
Alexdk wrote:
Why couldn't they just name this aircraft MAX 9 and drop the previous 9? Who needs current MAX 9 now?


What do you propose Boeing do with this:

ImageBoeing 737 MAX 9 N7379E LN6250 by Huy Do, on Flickr

And this?

ImageBoeing 737 MAX 9 Lion Air N739EX LN6308 by Huy Do, on Flickr

They're kind of big for lawn ornaments, and I doubt their future operators are going to want to wait a few years for the -10.

Perhaps Boeing can try to deliver them by rail, and hope for the best :lol:

Seriously, the MAX-9 has been built, is in test flight, no gain in scrapping it (the program, not the aircraft). Indeed the point is that the MAX-9 has production slots allocated the next couple of years, so airlines in need of a 737 bigger than the MAX-8 before 2021 have to take the -9 - and hope for the best as far as resale is concerned...

But I seriously doubt there will be any new orders for the MAX-9 from now on.
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FlyUSAir
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:13 pm

I literally vomited, the guys in Chicago have absolutely no idea how to compete with the A321. Boeing needs a 757/767 replacement, not stretching the 737 to the point one day we will have the 737-1000.
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:20 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
I literally vomited

Literally? You may want to see a doctor about that.

V/F
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goboeing
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:24 pm

The overall lack of progress since the dawn of the jet age is sad.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:28 pm

goboeing wrote:
The overall lack of progress since the dawn of the jet age is sad.


Couldn't agree more. I love Boeing and I love the 737 but there's only so much you can stretch it before you need a new aircraft/design.
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:30 pm

If the MAX 10 truly has 5% lower trip costs over the A321-neo that is a big advantage and should cut significantly into Airbus sales.
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:33 pm

Congrats Boeing! I think this was a smart move. Although yet another 737 isn't hugely exciting, it's a handsome looking aircraft. Like others have mentioned, Boeing now has a lineup of 4 737s with just about 8,2m difference in length throughout the family. The Airbus A320neo and A321neo are 7m apart, and the 737-8/9/10 all fit between them. I'm pretty sure this will cannibalize -9 sales, maybe quite a few -8s as well. We're already seeing orders being converted from the -8 to the -10.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:38 pm

FlyUSAir wrote:
I literally vomited, the guys in Chicago have absolutely no idea how to compete with the A321. Boeing needs a 757/767 replacement, not stretching the 737 to the point one day we will have the 737-1000.


This is clearly a stop gap for the low end of the market and to compete with the A321. There is every indication Boeing is forging ahead with a MOM/NMA/797. Boeing needed to stop the bleeding against the A321 and this can launch YEARS ahead of a wholly new aircraft.
 
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EPA001
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:43 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
If the MAX 10 truly has 5% lower trip costs over the A321-neo that is a big advantage and should cut significantly into Airbus sales.


Well, the slides presenting advantages over a competing Aircraft are always to be taken with a big grain of salt, no matter which manufacturer presents them. On certain (shorter) routes it may have that advantage, and on other (longer) routes it might be at a disadvantage. In an analysis taking more elements into account posted here earlier today the aircraft offerings seem to be quite competitive to each other.

Time will tell how good the B737-MAX10 really will be.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:44 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
If the MAX 10 truly has 5% lower trip costs over the A321-neo that is a big advantage and should cut significantly into Airbus sales.


Only in certain circumstances. The presence of the MAX10 just makes the Airbus sales guys actually put forth a little cheaper A321 proposals this point forward.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:48 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
If the MAX 10 truly has 5% lower trip costs over the A321-neo that is a big advantage and should cut significantly into Airbus sales.


A 2021 737-10 with 5% lower trip costs than a 2017 A321neo. And about 5% lower capacity, and significantly shorter range. It's quite clear the 737-10 will cut into A321neo sales in the future, it's the direct competitor after all. But the numbers aren't as great as Boeing marketing slides want them to be. There's always more to the story.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:49 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I'm pretty sure this will cannibalize -9 sales, maybe quite a few -8s as well. We're already seeing orders being converted from the -8 to the -10.

Not too much a worry for Boeing though, since they can get more money out of the -10. Development costs for the -9 are low enough that it is not a problem if it ends up getting no new sales.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Boeing officially launches 737 MAX 10

Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:52 pm

goboeing wrote:
The overall lack of progress since the dawn of the jet age is sad.

You mean other than the substantial improvement in fuel burn per passenger kilometre:
Image

And other than the significant increase in engine reliability:
Image

And other than the significant advances in safety:
Image

And other than the significant increase in payload-range capability of aircraft. (Sorry couldn't find a handy graph for that)

Yes, other than those minor and irrelevant details, nothing at all has changed since the 1940s. I don't know why Boeing bothers with the 737 MAX when clearly they'd be much better off restarting production of the De Havilland Comet.

Seriously, I think what is sad is the lack of appreciation of the very real progress that has been made since the beginning of the jet age.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

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