chumley
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AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:43 pm

According to a statement from American Airlines, the American Eagle regional flights use the Bombardier CRJ aircraft, which has a maximum operating temperature of 118 degrees. Tuesday's forecast for Phoenix includes a high of 120 degrees, and the flights that are affected were to take off between 3 and 6 p.m.


It's currently 116F/47C at PHX and the next two days are supposed to push 120F.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/a ... 409634001/
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:56 pm

I've been on some CRJ-200 flights lately where the crew has asked 2-4 people to move to seats in the rear of the airplane for W&B issues. I've flown a lot of segments in CR2s and this is the first time I recall crews doing this. Don't think it was temp related and not AA in PHX either. Not my favorite airplane.
 
katwspotter
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:23 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
I've been on some CRJ-200 flights lately where the crew has asked 2-4 people to move to seats in the rear of the airplane for W&B issues. I've flown a lot of segments in CR2s and this is the first time I recall crews doing this. Don't think it was temp related and not AA in PHX either. Not my favorite airplane.


This is nothing new. When I use to work ramp/gate, this was a daily occurrence if you do not have enough ballast (sand bags) to put in the rear cargo bin to offset the weight differential since the CRJ is naturally nose heavy.
A/C I have worked in ATW - SF340 E145 CRJ2/7/9 DC93/4/5 A319/20 MD83 B738 B752/3 B763/4 A333
 
Caspian27
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:25 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
I've been on some CRJ-200 flights lately where the crew has asked 2-4 people to move to seats in the rear of the airplane for W&B issues. I've flown a lot of segments in CR2s and this is the first time I recall crews doing this. Don't think it was temp related and not AA in PHX either. Not my favorite airplane.


The airplane is very nose-heavy. Back before the UA/CO merger, the united res system would always fill up the front and leave the last few rows empty. So moving people happened nearly every flight back then.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
airzona11
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:33 pm

It is a scorcher. Happens a few times a year. I have a flight on a CR7 Thursday night so in theory am good to go.

Much respect of the ground crews out there right now.
 
spudsmac
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:39 pm

This is not a W & B issue. It's a performance chart limitation. The performance charts only go up to a certain temperature. I assume you can pay more to have them go to a higher temp but why bother when it only happens once every 2-3 years? The ERJ-175 is the same issue. Limited to ISA+35C.
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:08 am

Why is the CRJ-200 an issue but no other aircraft?
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
MD82/MD83/MD88/MD90 Q100/Q400
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:29 am

spudsmac wrote:
This is not a W & B issue. It's a performance chart limitation. The performance charts only go up to a certain temperature. I assume you can pay more to have them go to a higher temp but why bother when it only happens once every 2-3 years? The ERJ-175 is the same issue. Limited to ISA+35C.


Not sure why this is limited to the CRJ; charts only went to 120F back in 1990, but following the first-ever 122F day, resulting in diversions, the charts were updated by all manufacturers.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Wingtips56
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:53 am

There was a hot day back in 1990 that caused America West/HP to ground all of their 737-200 flights. Not sure if that included -300s as well. It's a matter of lift on a hot day with little bitty wings.
It may be that the CRJ is the most likely to be affected at this temperature of the aircraft types sheduled at PHX today. But if it is 122F, then it probably would have grounded the 732 as well, if any were still in use.
I was watching a WN 733 this afternoon with a creeping delay. It is airborne now, almost an hour late, but I have no idea if that was temperature related or not.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired)
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:58 am

When I landed in PHX at around 2:30p today there were CRJ's landing behind us and I believe I saw one departing a little after 3pm while I was picking my car up. But today is "cooler". lol
-Dave
 
hz747300
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:48 am

People don't believe me when I say that the temperature pushes 50C. I remember that day in the early 90s with the planes being diverted to Tuscon mostly I believe and it was not so much the planes couldn't do it, it was a documentation issue. On that day, I remember soft asphalt under the feet too.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:09 am

There are a lot of misconceptions about extreme heat like this in Phoenix. The majority of aircraft are not affected even by 120°F temps, particularly mainline fleets. Their performance charts go high enough, and the engines are more than capable of getting the aircraft off the ground. The issue is with CRJ200s in particular, but previously with MD80s and DC9s as well. The CRJ2s are underpowered enough as it is, and begin to struggle even on "average" hot days in Phoenix (110°F+). They're usually the first and often only fleet type to be grounded, but I think some of the other regional jets can face some weight restrictions.

Another misconception is that at those temperatures that runways and asphalt start to get "soft". Asphalt used in Phoenix is rated to temperatures in excess of 200°F, so an ambient temperature of 122°F simply wouldn't be hot enough to begin to soften the asphalt. Newly laid asphalt can, however, leak oil. That can give it the appearance of being soft, but the asphalt itself is not structurally affected. Aircraft were grounded on the 122° day in the early 90s because many aircraft performance charts didn't meet those temperatures, not because the runways or taxiways were at risk of being damaged.
 
alasizon
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:09 am

FlyUSAir wrote:
Why is the CRJ-200 an issue but no other aircraft?


This is not just the 200 (and in fact, PHX has no 200 flights except for two SGU round trips that will operate tomorrow), its the 700 and 900. The performance charts only go to ISA+35 which when you adjust for altitude is 117.6F or so in PHX.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
FlyUSAir
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:13 am

alasizon wrote:
FlyUSAir wrote:
Why is the CRJ-200 an issue but no other aircraft?


This is not just the 200 (and in fact, PHX has no 200 flights except for two SGU round trips that will operate tomorrow), its the 700 and 900. The performance charts only go to ISA+35 which when you adjust for altitude is 117.6F or so in PHX.


Got it, thanks for the info.
A319/A320/A321/A333 712/732/733/734/735/737/738/752/753/762/763 C172 CR2/CR7/CR9 E145/E170/E175/E190
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atimp
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:15 am

I live in Phoenix and on the local news tonight they said that manufacturers set what the maximum ambient temperatures are that aircraft can take off. The temperature here tomorrow and Wednesday is forecast at 120 F. CRJ's are rated for 118 F, Boeing 127 F and Airbus 128 F. That is according to NBC local affiliate 12 News.
 
alasizon
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:25 am

atcsundevil wrote:
The CRJ2s are underpowered enough as it is, and begin to struggle even on "average" hot days in Phoenix (110°F+). They're usually the first and often only fleet type to be grounded, but I think some of the other regional jets can face some weight restrictions.


Hence why we no longer operate the aircraft out of PHX except for the OO pro-rate flying.

There were 23 departures and 21 arrivals cancelled thus far for tomorrow which basically took out 90% of the flying from 1400-1800. All of the WX cancels today have been due to TUS WX.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:58 am

alasizon wrote:
Hence why we no longer operate the aircraft out of PHX except for the OO pro-rate flying.

There were 23 departures and 21 arrivals cancelled thus far for tomorrow which basically took out 90% of the flying from 1400-1800. All of the WX cancels today have been due to TUS WX.

Good. They really should have pulled the CRJ2s a long time ago. They could have replaced them with E145s or even CRJ7s with the minor capacity bump, because neither of those are anything nearly as underpowered. They've been a headache for ATC for a long time, especially back when ASH was at its peak in PHX with about a 50/50 split of CRJ2s and CRJ9s. It's kind of like driving on US60 with traffic moving at 80mph, but grandma is in lane two going 35. Trying to get aircraft around them with better climb rates can be a challenge on days like today. There are other airplanes that climb like crap too, but the -200s don't do anyone any favors.
 
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zeke
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:50 am

alasizon wrote:
This is not just the 200 (and in fact, PHX has no 200 flights except for two SGU round trips that will operate tomorrow), its the 700 and 900. The performance charts only go to ISA+35 which when you adjust for altitude is 117.6F or so in PHX.


That sounds like fundamental lack of knowledge. Temp/Dew point 117/34, QNH 29.67", elevation 1135 ft is the same as ISA at 5400 ft, performance is based upon the density height the aircraft is operating in. I would be surprised if the CRJ had an environmental limit so low.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ericm2031
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:56 am

Caspian27 wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:
I've been on some CRJ-200 flights lately where the crew has asked 2-4 people to move to seats in the rear of the airplane for W&B issues. I've flown a lot of segments in CR2s and this is the first time I recall crews doing this. Don't think it was temp related and not AA in PHX either. Not my favorite airplane.


The airplane is very nose-heavy. Back before the UA/CO merger, the united res system would always fill up the front and leave the last few rows empty. So moving people happened nearly every flight back then.


Still happens, but it may be more the fact that people tend to pick seats towards the front of the plane to get off quickly.

Moving people is much faster and accomplishes more than having to add ballast.
 
Tan Flyr
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:40 pm

I remember back in the 70's (& maybe early 80's) on very hot days (115-120?) both TWA and AA 707 services to the East coast were either significantly weight restricted, or just delayed until the temps cooled off in the evening. Back then metro Phoenix was probably a third to 40% of its' current size and the heat retention into the evening was not as bad as it is now with so much more concrete and asphalt.
Tt was even worse after the flooding on the Salt River in the winter 78 or79 when , as I recall, around the last 800-900 ft of runway was washed away. Took a bit of time to move the river and rebuild the runway. ( I-10 bridge was also damaged)
 
Tan Flyr
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:49 pm

I remember back in the 70's (& maybe early 80's) on very hot days (115-120?) both TWA and AA 707 services to the East coast were either significantly weight restricted, or just delayed until the temps cooled off in the evening. Back then metro Phoenix was probably a third to 40% of its' current size and the heat retention into the evening was not as bad as it is now with so much more concrete and asphalt.
Tt was even worse after the flooding on the Salt River in the winter 78 or79 when , as I recall, around the last 800-900 ft of runway was washed away. Took a bit of time to move the river and rebuild the runway. ( I-10 bridge was also damaged)
 
UALdave
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Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:11 pm

So with the heatwave in Phoenix, the news a couple of days ago was that regional airliners won't be able to fly into Phoenix. I know that this extraordinary heat also affects larger aircraft, but why the emphasis first on regional aircraft? Are they more susceptible, so to speak, to the heat then larger aircraft?
 
Natflyer
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Re: Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:20 pm

Well,AFAIK mainly certified to a lower maximum operating temperature. But having endured the crap air conditioning in some of these things, I for one do not want to come anywhere near 100F or higher temps.
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:22 pm

It's not as much a regional aircraft thing as it is a manufacturer thing. Bombardier only publishes performance stats up to 116 degrees farenheit, and obviously you can't fly a plane if the manufacturer doesn't give you any performance data. It's 117 in Phoenix right now.
 
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HighBypass
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Re: Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:22 pm

Some of the smaller regional aircraft are thrust limited at higher operating temperatures, and in particular, the Bombardier CRJ's are known to have a relatively low limit on high temps.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:30 pm

The CRJ has a maximum operating temperature limit of ISA +35. ISA is standard temperature at that pressure altitude. Phoenix Sky Harbor is about 1150 feet. Standard temperature at sea level is 15C. At 1150 maximum temp would be 13 + 35 = 48 = 118F.
 
polywad6963
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Re: Regional airliners and heat...

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:12 pm

Would the smaller wing profile also effect lift characteristics? I thought the older 737s had the same issue, or was that also a manufacturing "limit" due to temps? I know a C-172 wouldn't be able to lift off today on the 11k ft runway!
 
UALdave
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:04 pm

Could the tires of a regional aircraft, or any other aircraft for that matter, be damaged at all by the heat? I read years ago that the tires are filled with dry nitrogen, instead of oxygen which is more flammable.
 
MO11
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:56 pm

UALdave wrote:
Could the tires of a regional aircraft, or any other aircraft for that matter, be damaged at all by the heat? I read years ago that the tires are filled with dry nitrogen, instead of oxygen which is more flammable.



Regional aircraft? Look at all of the tire shreds littering the highways here. Nitrogen in tires is less susceptible to pressure variations as temperature changes. The other choice is air, which is still 79% nitrogen, but your compressed air source may introduce moisture.
 
UALdave
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Re: AA cancels CRJ flights from PHX due to extreme heat

Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:10 pm

[url][/url]
MO11 wrote:
UALdave wrote:
Could the tires of a regional aircraft, or any other aircraft for that matter, be damaged at all by the heat? I read years ago that the tires are filled with dry nitrogen, instead of oxygen which is more flammable.



Regional aircraft? Look at all of the tire shreds littering the highways here. Nitrogen in tires is less susceptible to pressure variations as temperature changes. The other choice is air, which is still 79% nitrogen, but your compressed air source may introduce moisture.


Gotcha. I've seen passenger videos on YouTube of the new CSeries aircraft taking off, and they have really great climb performance.

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