Hoffa
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EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:47 pm

By GUY CHAZAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


MOSCOW -- Russian officials are scrambling to soften the impact of a European ban on noisy airplanes that threatens to hammer the country's package-holiday industry.

Starting April 1, the aging Russian airliners that ferry most flights chartered by package-holiday operators won't be allowed to land at airports in Western Europe. A European Union ban on noisy planes could affect more than half the estimated 300,000 Russian tourists expected in Spain alone this year, according to Spanish tourist officials. The Russian Association of Tourist Agencies says total passenger traffic will fall by 8%, and it claims Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece could lose a total of $1 billion (1.15 billion euros) a year in revenue from Russian tourists.

Aeroflot, the national carrier, says it won't be affected because it uses Boeing and Airbus planes and modernized Tupolev 154s on most of its European routes. But the EU measure will ban planes such as the Ilyushin 86 and the Tupolev 134 that are used by smaller charter companies.

Russia's older aircraft weigh in at 100 decibels, compared with about 94 for the current generation of Boeings. European environmentalists have long called for a ban on the thunderous Russian models.

Safety fears have also grown: There were twice as many crashes involving Russian-built airliners in 2001 as in 2000, according to the European Commission.

Following last Tuesday's crash of an Iran Air Tours' Tu-154 in western Iran with the loss of all 119 people on board, Iran's transport minister said Tehran will be removing all Russian-manufactured planes from its fleet. (See related article.)

Russia has launched a diplomatic offensive against the EU's directive, sending delegations to Brussels and other European capitals to seek exemptions for certain planes. Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

The EU expresses hope that a compromise can be reached. Constantinos Vardakis, a European Commission spokesman, said Russia could negotiate temporary exemptions with individual EU member states that would allow certain planes to fly to certain airports. In return, Russia would have to provide a timetable for phasing out planes to comply with the new rules. A full repeal of the legislation is "out of the question," he said.

European officials stress that the Russians were given plenty of warning. The directive, based on a 1990 resolution of the International Civil Aviation Organization, was adopted by the EU in 1992; airlines were given 10 years to comply. Some, such as Aeroflot, already do. But smaller airlines without the funds to buy new aircraft say they will be badly hit.

Write to Guy Chazan at guy.chazan@wsj.com

Updated February 18, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST

Copyright © 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved

 
NewSwissair
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:26 am

That`s terrible for the Russian airlines. I would love to see them for a long time in the future. Switzerland isn`t in the EU and a Bulgarian Airline will fly to Zurich this summer with Tu-134. Great aircraft! Russian aircraft are as safe as western aircraft!!! Don`t forget, please.
 
GOT
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:48 am

As much as I like to see russian planes come to western airports, I want them not to. I think most of us (if not all) want a nice envoirment, and old, noise, dirty planes, both western and russian, don't fit in.
If we puch the date when they will all be gone further and further, more people will start to complain and the whole industry may suffer.
As hard as it is, the old and noisy planes must go now, otherwise newer planes like 737 classic and so on may also suffer.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
LGW
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:12 am

To be honest im not to worried about the enviroment. Id rather see an An124 than have a clean enviroment. We wont be affected for years

LGW
 
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mighluss
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:24 am

I will miss them in BCN! yes, is better for the environment and all this but there are very few russian planes. I see no reason to complain.
Miquel.
 
EGGD
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:29 am

Damn that Is crap, why would they do this? And how come '4db' is such a big deal? My stereo is measured in decibles, and the difference between say -40db and -36db is not much at all, so banning russian airliners would stop a tiny bit of noise, but lose the tourist industry hundreds of millions of euro's. Go figure.
 
TWAL1011
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:33 am

Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:39 am

4 dB(A) is a hell of a lot of difference: the noise level is doubled every 2 dB(A), so an increase by 4 means eighfold.

Daniel Smile
 
yak42
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:08 am

I do see benefits for Russia and eastern Europe in this. The banning of these outdated types such as the IL86, Tu134 and the Tu154B will create much demand for the newer Russian aircraft such as the Yak42, Tu154M, Tu204, Tu334 and the Il96 putting new life into their industry.
The Russian government may raise taxes on imported/EU aircraft forcing Aeroflot to buy home products.
Also the loss of some Russian tourists to EU countries may be to the gain of Black Sea resorts which are not doing as well as there Western European neighbours.
You see, every cloud has a silver lining.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
magyar
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:23 am

>>
Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.
<<

Why to be so emotional? They creating new market. They force
the Russians to buy new planes and those could be easily
Boeings. So, you should be happy.

Janos
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:31 am

>>If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.

Ha ha. These flyovers flush lots of money into some Russian coffers.

Daniel Smile
 
yak42
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RE: Magyar

Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:54 am

Magyar, I fail to see why the Russians buying more Boengs would be a positive development.
 
ScottB
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:04 am

Interesting that the EU hasn't banned flights of one of the noisiest aircraft still flying...the Concorde. I can't imagine why that might be.
 
patroni
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:06 am

Well well well.. again an article about the EU starting a conspiracy against Russian aircraft? As far as I had understood so far, this ban includes ALL chapter 2 aircraft, like DC-8, Boeing 707, 737-200 and 727, BAC 1-11 etc? But I have also heard that they are working on an exemption for the IL-76 of some carriers, which shall undergo some modifications?

Rather than seeing this as an attack on the Russian economy, I rather would see this as a bold step towards more environmental and neighbourhood friendly air transport...

Tom
 
ebos
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:18 am

Tom,

Is there any link on the net with more info about a possible exemption for the IL76?

Thanks
Sven
An-225 stalker: 1 x LUX, 1 x EIN, 1 x DXB, 2 x SHJ, 3 x CGN
 
vafi88
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:31 am

Why don't people like noisy planes? They keep whining about planes flying over their houses " causing noise" and disrupting their buisness. I have planes flying over my house a couple times a week to land on Runway 35 at DEN and I can't even hear them when I sleep. Russians never complain about this problem even with their noisiness and everybody else is whining.

I don't get it.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
travelin man
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:39 am

Scottb brings up a good point: What about the Concorde? Surely that plane MUST pollute and make more noise than any Russian aircraft out there?
 
gerardo
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:46 am

Sure, but we are talking about 10 Concordes, flying mostly over the atlantic, compared with hundreds of Russian- and BTW other - older aircraft, which fly over populated areas.

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:48 am

And how many Concorde flights are there? Nil, statistically speaking (i.e. too few to be the smallest dot on any chart).
Daniel Smile
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:50 am

looks like Gerardo beat me in expressing this point - it´s just common sense, after all...
 
travelin man
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:11 am

The number of Concordes doesn't mean anything IF this law is intended to save the environment and protect people from noise, correct?

After all, a polluting plane IS a polluting plane. A noise-making plane IS a noise-making plane. You can't say "The Concorde doesn't count." Maybe it doesn't count because it is European?
 
patroni
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:39 am

@EBOS :

Sven, I don't know of a website concerning the IL-76, but when I saw the magazine "Air Cargo News" not too long ago, it had a feature story "Save the IL-76".

Have to ask in our office whether they still have these issue(s).

Best regards,

Tom

 
airsicknessbag
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:49 am

Concorde is not more polluting than a 747.
And if you´re talking about noise - sure you can say "Concorde doesn´t count"; and because it makes no difference whatsover with roughly 2000 Concorde take offs per annum WORLDWIDE (the Russians combined probably do that in 3 hours) nobody´s going to care.
Daniel Smile
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:58 am

It's a fact that a lot of people don't like noise, street noise, train noise, neighbor noise - lawnmovers etc. And aircrafts.

It's a fact that such noises are regulated by law, especially in densely populated areas.

It's a fact that many airports have a contract making them able to operate only within acknowled EU rules. Otherwise they have to be closed down.

It's a fact that since April 1992 nobody have been in doubt what rules would be in effect from 1st April 2002. And that those rules included a waiver for the present Concorde fleet.

It's a fact that many airports have had to impose more strict rules, or post April 2002 rules, many years ahead of 2002 in order to be able to continue operation.

It's a fact that non stage 3 compliant equipment have been picked up by some low cost charter carriers for very small amounts, because everybody knew that they could find very limited use after April 2002.

It's a fact that those carriers from day to day can pick up leased Stage 3 compliant equipment. But not for almost free like the noisy equipment. Some carriers may have a business plan which is only valid when they have the planes almost for free. They will close down when the "party is over".

Every time a deadline is approaching, then there will be a flock shouting "wulff is coming". But we will see next April, when the EU goes from 99% to practically 100% Stage 3 compliant, then it will not be the end of the world.

The worst effect in Europe will be that strawberries in February will increase 5% in price since those African B707 cargo planes will be retired from service to Europe.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
NewSwissair
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:22 am

Everybody wants to fly, but nobody wants the noise. I`m happy that Switzerland isn`t in the EU. So this year we will have some flights with older russian aircrafts.

 
wodo
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:54 am

European carriers also have to follow the rules. Iberia has phased out its last 727. Why should foreigners be allowed?
 
magyar
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:02 am

>>
After all, a polluting plane IS a polluting plane. A noise-making plane IS a noise-making plane. You can't say "The Concorde doesn't count." Maybe it doesn't count because it is European?
<<

A little hypocrisy never hurt. When the EU or the US deal with
anybody else they usually put quite a show up there.

Janos
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:08 am

Dear NewSwissair, I hate to worry you. But Switzerland has always been the country which imposed stricter environmental rules than the EU, or imposed EU rules earlier than the EU.

I would guess that the noisy (Russian) aircrafts have been banned at for instance ZRH and GVA many years ago. Or prohibitively high extra landing fees have been demanded due to resticted noise class.

Go to any Swiss small airfield and take a walk through the hangars. You will find that many Swiss privately owned light aircrafts are registered in EU countries or the USA. Why? Because they are too noisy to carry a HB- registration and a flag on the tail.

I have heard that even a Cessna 172 cannot be registered in Switzerland unless it has a special (Swiss) low noise prop up front.

When 5-10 years ago Crossair exploded in size, then they bought only new ARJ and SAAB 2000 planes. Why? They needed to expand their operations in Switzerland drmatically. They would have been facing enormous public resistance if they couldn't prove that they bought the absolutely most quiet planes which could be bought. So that's what they did.

Next time you photograph a Tu-134 or Il-86 in Switzerland, or even a B727, show it here. I'm afraid that you will have to wait very long time to box such a shot. You will have a far better chance going to any EU country, but do it before April.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Alessandro
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:26 am

This is a way to get rid of all the old passenger and
cargo planes over crowded EU, guess this old ones
will live on in remote areas of Russia, Asia and Africa.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
ScottB
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:32 am

Whether or not there are "just" a dozen or so Concordes with a half-dozen takeoffs and landings daily, they're still noisy, and they still pollute. Moreover, those Concordes operate to and from airports in relatively heavily populated areas (London and Paris) And the amount of ground-audible noise from an airliner at cruise altitude is virtually zero (unless it's generating sonic booms).

How many daily flights into Western Europe by Russian aircraft does this affect? Ten? Twenty? Certainly not a dramatically larger number of flights than the number operated by the Concorde. I doubt there are hundreds of noisy old Russian planes screaming across the European skies each day, frightening small children and farm animals.

Yeesh. The only reason the Concorde has an exemption is because the EU negotiated an exemption for one of its status symbols. Yes, it is hypocrisy. I do believe part of the motivation for the requirements was to stimulate sales of Stage III-compliant aircraft -- and one of the biggest manufacturers of those aircraft is Airbus.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:47 am

Yep ScottB, you are absolutely right, the Concorde noise waiver is a political waiver. Once or twice every day LHR and CDG (and JFK!) are filled with thunder for 60 or 70 seconds.

Why this is accepted after April 2002 - well, we can all guess. My guess is that this thunder has some special flavour of national pride connected to it. Other guesses may be equally valid.

You name it hypocrisy. That's okay. That's your definition. The politicians who accepted the Concorde waiver most likely have another word. It's their right to name it differently. The only difference is that they are in power of EU rules and waivers, not you and I.

I am pretty sure that it is no more complicated than that.

Regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
cba
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:15 am

This ban has two main advantages for the EU:

1. Noise and pollution will be reduced

2. Airlines operating older planes will be pressured to order newer aircraft such as Boeings and Airbuses, although the EU would get much more out of the latter, and this is a main reason why they are considering the ban. It would boost Airbus (and Boeing) sales.
 
CPH-R
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:39 am

Preben, have you heard of the Air Botnia Yak-42 at CPH? According to I was told on a spotters tour there, every time they start their engines, they're fined for violating noise restrictions!
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:49 am

Actually the noise level doubles every 10 decibles. 3 decibles is the threshold of audible distinction for most people (ie you can't tell the difference between 90 and 91 decibles).

 
donder10
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:01 am

SO many EU reg flights to Asia go over Russia so things COULD get nasty.But appears that Russia has about 10 years notice!
 
NewSwissair
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:28 am

Hi Prebennorholm,

You are right, with the rules in Switzerland. And I agree with you, that Russian airliners and other older aircraft are more often seen in the EU countries. But we have a lot of Russian Airliners in Geneva during the winter time. Like this winter! Aeroflot came with Tu-134 and Il-96, Sibir and Pulkovo with Il-86, and other carriers with Tu-154B-2 and M`s. Also we will have charter flights to Bulgaria this year. From May to Septembre every Friday with Tu-154M ( Stage III ) and in July also every Friday with Tu-134 ( ! ) to Bourgas. This is not possible in the EU after the 1st of April. Jat flies sometimes also with the 722 to ZRH and MAT with DC-9-32. The Air Koryo is also up to 10 times a year in ZRH and a lot of Il-76.
I hope the EU and Switzerland will allow some flights with older russian and western aircraft in the near future. Would love to see B 727 and DC-8 ( not with CFM engines ) again.

Best regards
 
rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:00 pm


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pyh
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:18 pm

"Preben, have you heard of the Air Botnia Yak-42 at CPH? "

For sure he hasn't, because Air Botnia has never owned any Yak-42.
 
trintocan
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:57 pm

Yes indeed, that EU ban will hit Russia the hardest. After all, while there were 10 years to update the fleets (and Aeroflot indeed did so) those were the 10 years of considerable turmoil in the Russian aerospace industry. Less than 30 airliners were built in those years and the many start-up carriers in Russia merely took up older planes which were available cheaply. Those airlines will find it hard to replace those planes unless viable alternatives are available at reasonable prices.

As far as Concorde is concerned, there is no way it can ever comply with Stage 3 (afterburners and all that) - any attempt to muzzle it would penalize its performance and perhaps even make it unable to fly supersonic. It is very loud - when flying from LHR 2 weeks ago I heard and glimpsed one on take-off roll and even through the thick glass of terminal 3 one could hear the racket it made. Ultimately though its waiver may well have been political.

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:57 am

Have 154s long since been banned also?

Seems like someone does not know what he is talking about.


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NewSwissair
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:11 am

Tu-154M are Stage III suitable. All other versions of the Tu-154 are only stage II.
 
rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:36 am

727s at ZRH within the past year.


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rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:50 am

A loud, smokey small hole DC-8 at ZRH within the last two years.


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rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:52 am

Loud Russian Planes at ZRH

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rlwynn
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RE: EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners

Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:56 am

Of all the planes I watched take off Monday at ZRH, this was the loudest.


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