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LAXintl
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Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:13 pm

Only few years after permission was granted for growing number of international flights at conveniently located Buenos Aires Aeroparque, the Argentine government has reversed itself.

Commencing April 2018, Argentina will require relocation of international services with exception of Uruguay one back to Ezeiza by 2019.

The argument used by the government is that moving the international flights to Ezeiza will help free up more slots for domestic services at Aeroparque which today has 340 daily movements.

http://mensajeroweb.com.ar/post/57034/a ... otaje.html
https://www.cronista.com/informaciongra ... -0080.html
http://www.aeroflap.com.br/aeroporto-ae ... s-em-2018/

=

As someone that has used both airports, I found the convenience of Aeroparque extraordinary compared to distant Ezeiza.
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dcajet
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Plans for Buenos Aires 4th airport and changes at AEP

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:28 pm

With the expected onslaught of new airlines that are planning to operate in Argentina by year's end (Avianca Argentina, Flybondi, Norwegian, Flyest, etc.) the transportation authorities are about to unveil a program to reshuffle operations at Buenos Aires two main airports (AEP & EZE).

Currently, AEP is maxed out but is the preferred airport for most travelers in and out of the city. It only handles domestic and regional flights to neighboring countries. To make room for the new entrants, over the next two years, all international flights (except of those to Uruguay) will revert back to EZE, 50% in 2018 and the remaining 50% in 2019. This measure will allow the new airlines to operate from AEP too. The measure, which has yet to be made official, is proving not very popular with travelers as the top two international routes in Argentina, AEP-GRU and AEP-SCL will be moved to the less convenient (distance wise from town) EZE.

In parallel to the above development, Flybondi presented its plans to open an exclusive terminal at El Palomar EPA, that will see this once air force base turn into Buenos Aires 4th civilian airport. The airline will invest US$30MM in its own terminal on the airport grounds and expects to have it up and running in late 2018, subject to final approval of the project by the transportation and defense (owner of the airport) ministries. In common with other low cost terminals around the world, it is a simple and functional design; i.e. no jetways.

EPA is the only airport in Buenos Aires to have its own rail station, and the travel time to the city is 30 minutes to Pacifico Station and 42 to the Retiro Terminal.The airline says the terminal will generate 1500 direct jobs and 6000 indirect. It is planned to be for its exclusive use as the airline has no plans to offer ramp or airport services to other airlines.

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mercure1
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Shame.
I flew from Brazil to AEP and enjoyed the experience. Managed to reach hotel amazingly quick avoiding long drive from countryside EZE airport.
 
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yowza
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:37 pm

This is too bad. As has already been mentioned AEP is vastly more convenient than EZE but such is life...
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:51 pm

I also find the return to the old domestic at AEP and international at EZE status far from ideal for folks trying to make cross town connections.

Sure there are some domestic links at EZE, but they are far fewer than at AEP.

Hopefully, as Argentina opens up further, there will be ever growing number of direct services to the regions, reducing need to connect at Buenos Aires entirely.
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Re: Plans for Buenos Aires 4th airport and changes at AEP

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:52 pm

Nice. I didn't realise there were more airports to use.

I also recall some stories about odd government anti-competitive measures in the past, relating to who can operate and where ... don't remember the details, but Argentina probably isn't an easy place to operate in, for all those new airlines. So lets see how things will work out.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:33 pm

yowza wrote:
This is too bad. As has already been mentioned AEP is vastly more convenient than EZE but such is life...


They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...
 
Seat1F
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:03 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
yowza wrote:
This is too bad. As has already been mentioned AEP is vastly more convenient than EZE but such is life...


They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...


I agree with you. Centralizing everything at EZE would greatly improve connections between international and domestic flights thereby strengthening Argentine carriers. They would have to invest in the EZE infrastructure (runways/taxiways/gates/terminals). I also agree that they would also have to install a high speed rail line to central Buenos Aires for it to make sense. Anyway, its all a pipedream. The locals would never agree to it. It's akin to telling the people in Washington DC that DCA is going to be closed and all flights will be centralized at IAD....and to a lesser degree BWI. Never gonna happen.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:38 pm

Is there going to be room at EZE for all these guys? I seem to recall the airport only having limited gates - ie under 20.
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dcajet
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Re: Plans for Buenos Aires 4th airport and changes at AEP

Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Nice. I didn't realise there were more airports to use.

I also recall some stories about odd government anti-competitive measures in the past, relating to who can operate and where ... don't remember the details, but Argentina probably isn't an easy place to operate in, for all those new airlines. So lets see how things will work out.


The story on how flights to neighboring countries came to AEP is really an irony unto itself. In 2008, when Cristina Kirchner was president, her government literally handed AR to a political organization named La Campora, led by her son, Maximo, so they could run it - play with it, closer to the truth. These kids had the idea that AR should be the only airline in the country so they cooked up this plan to leave AEP for the exclusive use of Aerolineas Argentinas. That plan included moving AR flights to Brazil, Chile, Bolivia and Paraguay to AEP as a competitive advantage as well as kicking the then LAN Argentina, now LATAM, out of the airport and move it to EZE, for all flights. domestic and international. The harassment also included not letting LAN use jetways at the terminal and an eviction notice from its maintenance hangar @ AEP.

Of course, LAN sued in court and the nonsense had to stop, although until 2016 when Mrs Kirchner left office, LATAM was not allowed the use of jetways at AEP. The brain trust at La Campora also forgot that if they wanted to fly from AEP to SCL or GIG they would have to let airlines ot those countries fly to AEP too. Which is how events unfolded to how things are today.

So yes, at least during the Kirchners, Argentina was one of the most unfriendly places to do business... unless you were in with K clique. Then it'd be from rags to riches overnight.
Last edited by dcajet on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:50 pm

usxguy wrote:
Is there going to be room at EZE for all these guys? I seem to recall the airport only having limited gates - ie under 20.


Plenty of room. Jetways are another story. But in any case, we are talking about 30-35 flights/day, max. Plus, all the airlines that operate at AEP already operate at EZE too, with the exception of Amaszonas Uruguay and Amaszonas Paraguay.
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atl100million
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:26 pm

The same divided airport situation will play out in BUE as has played out in other cities around the world.

Home airlines work more efficiently by having strong hubs; keeping the top domestic routes at a "local/domestic" airport will hurt connections at the international airport where domestic flights will do worse.

This likely also ensures that low cost domestic carriers cannot get into AEP.
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:41 pm

atl100million wrote:
This likely also ensures that low cost domestic carriers cannot get into AEP.


The idea for this move is to make slots at AEP available for the new entrants. International flights can join the already existent at EZE. There is no way otherwise to let newcomers into AEP and not doing so favors LATAM and AR, and the government wants precisely to avoid such a scenario. Closing AEP is simply not possible given traveling patterns.

Keep in mind that in Argentina, unlike airports such as LHR, airlines do not own the slots, the airport does.
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dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:57 pm

Made official today. Here is the official announcement from Argentina's DOT:

https://www.boletinoficial.gob.ar/#!Det ... 3/20170710

50% of services will have to be moved by 9 April 2018 and the remaining 50% by 1 April 2019. Airlines have 30 days from today to present their AEP international services exit plan to the authorities, stating what flights they will move in '18 and which ones in '19. As of today, no further international flights may be added from AEP.

Uruguay as a destination and origin of flights is exempted from this measure.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:16 am

What a shame. Flew SCL to AEP a couple of years ago on LAN (now LATAM) and really appreciated the quick arrival process. EZE has improved greatly in recent years but it's still a bit of a hike from the city center.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:22 am

usflyer msp wrote:
yowza wrote:
This is too bad. As has already been mentioned AEP is vastly more convenient than EZE but such is life...


They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...


In an ideal world, totally, but with the still rampant corruption in both political and business rings, and the likely lack of funding, this will probably never happen.

Also, AEP is not that convenient for everyone. Unless you live in a 50 or so block radius, or in northern greater BUE, or need to be at downtown BUE, there's a fat chance city traffic will have you arrive late. EZE is only connected by a highway, but it's much smoother even in rush hour.
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:54 am

AtomicGarden wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
yowza wrote:
This is too bad. As has already been mentioned AEP is vastly more convenient than EZE but such is life...


They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...


In an ideal world, totally, but with the still rampant corruption in both political and business rings, and the likely lack of funding, this will probably never happen.

Also, AEP is not that convenient for everyone. Unless you live in a 50 or so block radius, or in northern greater BUE, or need to be at downtown BUE, there's a fat chance city traffic will have you arrive late. EZE is only connected by a highway, but it's much smoother even in rush hour.


Why would a city of the size of Buenos Aires close one airport altogether? Do you recommend the same for Washington DC or NYC with DCA and LGA? How does EZE absorb 12MM paxs overnight? The traveling public votes with their tickets, and AEP wins solidly over EZE when it comes to a choice of airports.

This is not, IMO, about corruption and/or lack of funding. Unfortunately this is the price Argentina has to pay for a lack of a coherent vision regarding air policies for the last 60 years. This should have been nipped in the bud when EZE was being built in the early 50s during the same time that AEP was allowed to become what it is today. Now, it is what it is.
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:06 am

dcajet wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...


In an ideal world, totally, but with the still rampant corruption in both political and business rings, and the likely lack of funding, this will probably never happen.

Also, AEP is not that convenient for everyone. Unless you live in a 50 or so block radius, or in northern greater BUE, or need to be at downtown BUE, there's a fat chance city traffic will have you arrive late. EZE is only connected by a highway, but it's much smoother even in rush hour.


Why would a city of the size of Buenos Aires close one airport altogether? Do you recommend the same for Washington DC or NYC with DCA and LGA? How does EZE absorb 12MM paxs overnight? The traveling public votes with their tickets, and AEP wins solidly over EZE when it comes to a choice of airports.

This is not, IMO, about corruption and/or lack of funding. Unfortunately this is the price Argentina has to pay for a lack of a coherent vision regarding air policies for the last 60 years. This should have been nipped in the bud when EZE was being built in the early 50s during the same time that AEP was allowed to become what it is today. Now, it is what it is.


Who says anything about closing AEP overnight? and I'm not comparing NYC or WAS because they are not my markets, not to mention very different countries. I'm just talking about an ideal world, and maybe, a long term plan, to be devoloped thru 20 years. Let's face it, AEP ain't that nicely located either, and it barely has any public transport available.

EZE has plenty rooom for expansion. It could, if done right, if we had the money, become the only airport in BUE. It needs of course new facilities, runways, and connections. I was just dreaming, chill. We all know it won't happen anytime soon, if ever.
 
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:28 am

dcajet wrote:
AtomicGarden wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

They should actually close AEP and move everything to EZE and build some sort of high-speed, high-frequency public transit out to it...


In an ideal world, totally, but with the still rampant corruption in both political and business rings, and the likely lack of funding, this will probably never happen.

Also, AEP is not that convenient for everyone. Unless you live in a 50 or so block radius, or in northern greater BUE, or need to be at downtown BUE, there's a fat chance city traffic will have you arrive late. EZE is only connected by a highway, but it's much smoother even in rush hour.


Why would a city of the size of Buenos Aires close one airport altogether? Do you recommend the same for Washington DC or NYC with DCA and LGA? How does EZE absorb 12MM paxs overnight? The traveling public votes with their tickets, and AEP wins solidly over EZE when it comes to a choice of airports.

This is not, IMO, about corruption and/or lack of funding. Unfortunately this is the price Argentina has to pay for a lack of a coherent vision regarding air policies for the last 60 years. This should have been nipped in the bud when EZE was being built in the early 50s during the same time that AEP was allowed to become what it is today. Now, it is what it is.

The solution is obviously to expand AEP with more ramp space, a bigger terminal, more hangars and a second, longer runway, parallel to the current one, and the only way to do that is to reclaim some of the Río de la Plata, build a tunnel for the traffic on the Costanera Norte, and deal with the NIMBYs in Vicente Lopez, Olivos and Acassuso. But it's still cheaper than a High Speed Rail to EZE.
 
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Re: Plans for Buenos Aires 4th airport and changes at AEP

Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:12 pm

Dcajet, thanks for your story about the AEP changes.
 
raylee67
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:20 pm

Can Brazilian carriers fly via Montevideo to AEP on one-stop service? Would it still be attractive to passengers so they can avoid the inconvenient EZE? The flight would be longer but it may make up at the end with a shorter commute and faster immigration processing.
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AY LH OU SR BA
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airbazar
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:53 pm

dcajet wrote:
Why would a city of the size of Buenos Aires close one airport altogether? Do you recommend the same for Washington DC or NYC with DCA and LGA? How does EZE absorb 12MM paxs overnight? The traveling public votes with their tickets, and AEP wins solidly over EZE when it comes to a choice of airports.

Apples and oranges. For starters NYC is a market of 60+ million passengers and DC ~35 million, while both BUE airports barely amount to 21 million. I'm probably wrong but I can't think of any other 21 million market with 2 airports. With such few passengers there's really no reason to operate multiple airports.
But your statement about "voting with tickets" is only true in a free market, which this is not. The traveling public can only vote with their ticket if they have a choice between 2 airports. But when the government mandates that ALL international flights must operate from 1 airport, then there is no choice for the traveling public to vote. In fact this is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting. The traveling public has voted that they prefer to fly from AEP and the government is forcing them to use EZE.
The point about consolidation may not be very realistic in this environment but it's a good one nonetheless. If you force all domestic ops to one airport and all intl ops to a different airport, by design you are strangling the business by making it very difficult to operate a hub and putting up obstacles for alliance interlining. It also limits operational synergies and that is very costly for the airlines. Not to mention that there really is no reasonable business case to operate 2 separate airports in such a small market.
 
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:09 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
The solution is obviously to expand AEP with more ramp space, a bigger terminal, more hangars and a second, longer runway, parallel to the current one, and the only way to do that is to reclaim some of the Río de la Plata, build a tunnel for the traffic on the Costanera Norte, and deal with the NIMBYs in Vicente Lopez, Olivos and Acassuso. But it's still cheaper than a High Speed Rail to EZE.


You probably remember that the idea was already proposed during the second presidency of Carlos Menem, in the late 90s. It was called the "aeroisla" and Japanese engineers that had worked on both Nagoya Centrair and Osaka Kansai were involved with the proposal. It went nowhere. It was so costly, had so many environmental repercussions and more importantly how do you justify the expenditure of creating an artificial island in a country that has such a small population and so much land that literally does not know what to do with it?

At some point in time, a mass transit rail line to EZE will have to be dealt with.

Incidentally, it appears that the current EZE and AEP administrator, Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, owned by Eduardo Eurnekian, is on his way out. His company's tenure at the helm of more than 30 airports is spotty at least; dodgy infrastructure in some cases and fees fit for Switzerland, not Latin America. His empire is also involved with running Montevideo MVD and Zvartnots, the airport in Yerevan, Armenia. He is an Armenian-Argentinian; there is a fairly large Armenian community in Argentina.

raylee67 wrote:
Can Brazilian carriers fly via Montevideo to AEP on one-stop service? Would it still be attractive to passengers so they can avoid the inconvenient EZE? The flight would be longer but it may make up at the end with a shorter commute and faster immigration processing.


In essence, that was how PLUNA made its living since the 70s.They sold you a ticket to MVD and then the connecting flight to POA, GRU (CGH back then) and GIG.

It has been said that, besides Uruguay being too small a market to support a hometown airline, PLUNA demise was caused by the opening of AEP to international traffic. They did not stand a chance to the competition from AR/AU/JJ/G3 from AEP.

Back to your question, the answer is no. Brazilian carriers will no longer be able to operate @ AEP.
Last edited by dcajet on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:19 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
The solution is obviously to expand AEP with more ramp space, a bigger terminal, more hangars and a second, longer runway, parallel to the current one, and the only way to do that is to reclaim some of the Río de la Plata, build a tunnel for the traffic on the Costanera Norte, and deal with the NIMBYs in Vicente Lopez, Olivos and Acassuso. But it's still cheaper than a High Speed Rail to EZE.


You probably remember that the idea was already proposed during the second presidency of Carlos Menem, in the late 90s. It was called the "aeroisla" and Japanese engineers that had worked on both Nagoya Centrair and Osaka Kansai were involved with the proposal. It went nowhere. It was so costly, had so many environmental repercussions and more importantly how do you justify the expenditure of creating an artificial island in a country that has such a small population and so much land that literally does not know what to do with it?

At some point in time, a mass transit rail line to EZE will have to be dealt with.

Incidentally, it appears that the current EZE and AEP administrator, Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, owned by Eduardo Eurnekian, is on his way out. His company's tenure at the helm of more than 30 airports is spotty at least; dodgy infrastructure in some cases and fees fit for Switzerland, not Latin America. The) is also involved with running Montevideo MVD and Zvartnots, the airport in Yerevan, Armenia. He is an Armenian-Argentinian; there is a fairly large Armenian community in Argentina.

raylee67 wrote:
Can Brazilian carriers fly via Montevideo to AEP on one-stop service? Would it still be attractive to passengers so they can avoid the inconvenient EZE? The flight would be longer but it may make up at the end with a shorter commute and faster immigration processing.


In essence, that was how PLUNA made its living since the 70s.They sold you a ticket to MVD and then the connecting flight to POA, GRU (CGH back then) and GIG.

It has been said that, besides Uruguay being too small a market to support a hometown airline, PLUNA demise was caused by the opening of AEP to international traffic. They did not stand a chance to the competition from AR/AU/JJ/G3 from AEP.

Back to your question, the answer is no. Brazilian carriers will no longer be able to operate @ AEP.

Oh, sure, the idea is not mine, nor is it new. But having "enjoyed" the rail system in a city where it takes over a decade to even start to build a tunnel for one of the railway lines (the Sarmiento), where many railway crossings in the middle of the city are still same-level with vehicle traffic (leading to many accidents annually) and with 19th century infrastructure on many of its railways, I'm not holding my breath.
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:24 pm

airbazar wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Why would a city of the size of Buenos Aires close one airport altogether? Do you recommend the same for Washington DC or NYC with DCA and LGA? How does EZE absorb 12MM paxs overnight? The traveling public votes with their tickets, and AEP wins solidly over EZE when it comes to a choice of airports.

Apples and oranges. For starters NYC is a market of 60+ million passengers and DC ~35 million, while both BUE airports barely amount to 21 million. I'm probably wrong but I can't think of any other 21 million market with 2 airports. With such few passengers there's really no reason to operate multiple airports.
But your statement about "voting with tickets" is only true in a free market, which this is not. The traveling public can only vote with their ticket if they have a choice between 2 airports. But when the government mandates that ALL international flights must operate from 1 airport, then there is no choice for the traveling public to vote. In fact this is exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting. The traveling public has voted that they prefer to fly from AEP and the government is forcing them to use EZE.
The point about consolidation may not be very realistic in this environment but it's a good one nonetheless. If you force all domestic ops to one airport and all intl ops to a different airport, by design you are strangling the business by making it very difficult to operate a hub and putting up obstacles for alliance interlining. It also limits operational synergies and that is very costly for the airlines. Not to mention that there really is no reasonable business case to operate 2 separate airports in such a small market.


I'd have agreed wholeheartedly with you five years ago. But things have evolved in Argentina, and at quite the speed since the last 18 months.

1. Buenos Aires won't be at 21MM/year forever. In fact, the domestic market is growing at 20% YoY. While I understand the benefits of consolidation, its appeal fades when the market reaches 30MM/year in less than a decade.

2. AEP has no room for expansion. Yes, they can add ~ten more gates, a new control tower (being done as we read this) but there is no more room for new runways or apron space. Something needed to be done and the government can't say to all the new domestic operators that they can't operate there, favoring AR and LATAM only. Moving international back to EZE is the most equitable outcome to an already less than ideal situation that has few options for change.

3. There is choice - since 2 years ago, there is a sizable number of domestic operations from EZE to most major markets. In fact, people who live in the Southern and Western suburbs find this option much more palatable than driving/bus/uber/taxi to AEP. Yet, this amounts to only 10% of what AEP moves. So, there is a choice and oftentimes it is price driven, as flying out of EZE is usually cheaper than from AEP.

4. Yes, the choice is being taken away when it comes to short distance international flights but... see # 2.
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dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:41 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Oh, sure, the idea is not mine, nor is it new. But having "enjoyed" the rail system in a city where it takes over a decade to even start to build a tunnel for one of the railway lines (the Sarmiento), where many railway crossings in the middle of the city are still same-level with vehicle traffic (leading to many accidents annually) and with 19th century infrastructure on many of its railways, I'm not holding my breath.


You can send a nice thank you note to the now candidate for a Senate seat, Cristina Kirchner and to Brazil's Odebrecht for the Sarmiento tunnel fiasco. The whole project turned into a massive monument to graft and corruption and is now being untangled - and it is not pretty. Why do you think she so desperately wants a Senate seat? She needs some of the immunity that comes with it. Girlfriend has so many judicial investigations open that she spends her days from courthouse to courthouse alternating with political meetings for those that follow her sect - which is in essence what the Ks have become. Of course, she is running in the third electoral district of the province of Buenos Aires, where some of the most marginal population in Argentina lives. Those are the only ones who still regard her in a good light and see her as the persecuted widow, the only one that cares about the have nots. If only...
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MalevTU134
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:02 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Oh, sure, the idea is not mine, nor is it new. But having "enjoyed" the rail system in a city where it takes over a decade to even start to build a tunnel for one of the railway lines (the Sarmiento), where many railway crossings in the middle of the city are still same-level with vehicle traffic (leading to many accidents annually) and with 19th century infrastructure on many of its railways, I'm not holding my breath.


You can send a nice thank you note to the now candidate for a Senate seat, Cristina Kirchner and to Brazil's Odebrecht for the Sarmiento tunnel fiasco. The whole project turned into a massive monument to graft and corruption and is now being untangled - and it is not pretty. Why do you think she so desperately wants a Senate seat? She needs some of the immunity that comes with it. Girlfriend has so many judicial investigations open that she spends her days from courthouse to courthouse alternating with political meetings for those that follow her sect - which is in essence what the Ks have become. Of course, she is running in the third electoral district of the province of Buenos Aires, where some of the most marginal population in Argentina lives. Those are the only ones who still regard her in a good light and see her as the persecuted widow, the only one that cares about the have nots. If only...

Absolutely, although there is now a debate on whether that immunity should be valid for corruption charges (for which the statutes of limitation have been recently removed, a move only opposed by Kirchner's FPV party), following the request by a judge to arrest Julio De Vido, a senator and ex minister in both Néstor's and Cristina's governments, on corruption charges. He is said to have been the one who organized the triangulation of funds for them to end up in the Kirchners' pockets. Interesting times....but unfortunately they don't make it any easier to solve the fragmentation of air traffic in Buenos Aires, and the impossibility to run an effective hub with international fligths at one airport and domestic (and Uruguay) flights 30 kms away at another airport. Maybe it's really Flybondi that sits on the trump card, having installed themselves at El Palomar, that with border control services (a minor investment compared to a rail link to EZE) could operate flights to basically all of South America, as well as domestic, of course.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:05 pm

dcajet wrote:
2. AEP has no room for expansion. Yes, they can add ~ten more gates, a new control tower (being done as we read this) but there is no more room for new runways or apron space.


How about the large parking garage being completed South of the terminal building? Will this free up the space occupied by the North parking lot and be turned into aircraft stands? It could easily accomodate 10 to 12 aircraft.
 
kimbra
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:18 pm

Probably Azul Uruguay will be able to fly from AEP via MVD to Brazil with their ATR 600 under CX registry
 
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DABYT
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:15 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
The solution is obviously to expand AEP with more ramp space, a bigger terminal, more hangars and a second, longer runway, parallel to the current one, and the only way to do that is to reclaim some of the Río de la Plata, build a tunnel for the traffic on the Costanera Norte, and deal with the NIMBYs in Vicente Lopez, Olivos and Acassuso. But it's still cheaper than a High Speed Rail to EZE.


You probably remember that the idea was already proposed during the second presidency of Carlos Menem, in the late 90s. It was called the "aeroisla" and Japanese engineers that had worked on both Nagoya Centrair and Osaka Kansai were involved with the proposal. It went nowhere. It was so costly, had so many environmental repercussions and more importantly how do you justify the expenditure of creating an artificial island in a country that has such a small population and so much land that literally does not know what to do with it?

At some point in time, a mass transit rail line to EZE will have to be dealt with.

Incidentally, it appears that the current EZE and AEP administrator, Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, owned by Eduardo Eurnekian, is on his way out. His company's tenure at the helm of more than 30 airports is spotty at least; dodgy infrastructure in some cases and fees fit for Switzerland, not Latin America. The) is also involved with running Montevideo MVD and Zvartnots, the airport in Yerevan, Armenia. He is an Armenian-Argentinian; there is a fairly large Armenian community in Argentina.

raylee67 wrote:
Can Brazilian carriers fly via Montevideo to AEP on one-stop service? Would it still be attractive to passengers so they can avoid the inconvenient EZE? The flight would be longer but it may make up at the end with a shorter commute and faster immigration processing.


In essence, that was how PLUNA made its living since the 70s.They sold you a ticket to MVD and then the connecting flight to POA, GRU (CGH back then) and GIG.

It has been said that, besides Uruguay being too small a market to support a hometown airline, PLUNA demise was caused by the opening of AEP to international traffic. They did not stand a chance to the competition from AR/AU/JJ/G3 from AEP.

Back to your question, the answer is no. Brazilian carriers will no longer be able to operate @ AEP.

Oh, sure, the idea is not mine, nor is it new. But having "enjoyed" the rail system in a city where it takes over a decade to even start to build a tunnel for one of the railway lines (the Sarmiento), where many railway crossings in the middle of the city are still same-level with vehicle traffic (leading to many accidents annually) and with 19th century infrastructure on many of its railways, I'm not holding my breath.


And how long do you think it would take to reclaim land from the Rio de la Plata and build the tunnel for Costanera Norte you are mentioning? There is no space for expansion at AEP, let alone building a second runway.

From a passengers view AEP is very comfortable if you live in the city but from an urban planning perspective it's a desaster. It's blocking the best plots of land in one of the most attractive neighbourhoods of the city so the idea of moving all to EZE from my point of view is a pretty good one. Of course this would require a better and affordable connection from the city to Ezeiza.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:22 pm

DABYT wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

You probably remember that the idea was already proposed during the second presidency of Carlos Menem, in the late 90s. It was called the "aeroisla" and Japanese engineers that had worked on both Nagoya Centrair and Osaka Kansai were involved with the proposal. It went nowhere. It was so costly, had so many environmental repercussions and more importantly how do you justify the expenditure of creating an artificial island in a country that has such a small population and so much land that literally does not know what to do with it?

At some point in time, a mass transit rail line to EZE will have to be dealt with.

Incidentally, it appears that the current EZE and AEP administrator, Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, owned by Eduardo Eurnekian, is on his way out. His company's tenure at the helm of more than 30 airports is spotty at least; dodgy infrastructure in some cases and fees fit for Switzerland, not Latin America. The) is also involved with running Montevideo MVD and Zvartnots, the airport in Yerevan, Armenia. He is an Armenian-Argentinian; there is a fairly large Armenian community in Argentina.



In essence, that was how PLUNA made its living since the 70s.They sold you a ticket to MVD and then the connecting flight to POA, GRU (CGH back then) and GIG.

It has been said that, besides Uruguay being too small a market to support a hometown airline, PLUNA demise was caused by the opening of AEP to international traffic. They did not stand a chance to the competition from AR/AU/JJ/G3 from AEP.

Back to your question, the answer is no. Brazilian carriers will no longer be able to operate @ AEP.

Oh, sure, the idea is not mine, nor is it new. But having "enjoyed" the rail system in a city where it takes over a decade to even start to build a tunnel for one of the railway lines (the Sarmiento), where many railway crossings in the middle of the city are still same-level with vehicle traffic (leading to many accidents annually) and with 19th century infrastructure on many of its railways, I'm not holding my breath.


And how long do you think it would take to reclaim land from the Rio de la Plata and build the tunnel for Costanera Norte you are mentioning? There is no space for expansion at AEP, let alone building a second runway.

From a passengers view AEP is very comfortable if you live in the city but from an urban planning perspective it's a desaster. It's blocking the best plots of land in one of the most attractive neighbourhoods of the city so the idea of moving all to EZE from my point of view is a pretty good one. Of course this would require a better and affordable connection from the city to Ezeiza.

Roughly 8-10 years normally, unless you put Dubai-style construction methods into it and do it in 3 years.... Or you have a Kirchner-style government and it gets announced 5 times and nothing gets built for 15 years.
The no space issue is why you need to reclaim land from the river. And as for valuable land, yes sure, but there are other structures right nearby that have lesser economical impact or value right at that valuable spot compared to AEP, such as some derelict swimming pools, airforce barracks, water cleaning plant, garbage processing plant, etc, that really could be moved to less central locations.
City planning disaster? Well, no more than LCY, BMA, CGH, SDU or any other city airport. The fact is that it is where it is, so we just have to live with it best we can, and if possible improve on it.
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:30 pm

ro1960 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
2. AEP has no room for expansion. Yes, they can add ~ten more gates, a new control tower (being done as we read this) but there is no more room for new runways or apron space.


How about the large parking garage being completed South of the terminal building? Will this free up the space occupied by the North parking lot and be turned into aircraft stands? It could easily accomodate 10 to 12 aircraft.


That new, covered, multi level garage is replacing the old, open air garage right in front of the old control tower and the old Austral terminal. That old building and the old parking garage are being demolished, and will house new gates that will go all the way to the cargo terminal and the catering kitchens for Gate Gourmet, The new control tower right above the AR operations and control center offices should open in the next couple of months.

There is also a plan to house more gates at the current Presidential terminal, but not sure if that is just a rumor or else.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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ro1960
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:56 pm

dcajet wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
2. AEP has no room for expansion. Yes, they can add ~ten more gates, a new control tower (being done as we read this) but there is no more room for new runways or apron space.


How about the large parking garage being completed South of the terminal building? Will this free up the space occupied by the North parking lot and be turned into aircraft stands? It could easily accomodate 10 to 12 aircraft.


That new, covered, multi level garage is replacing the old, open air garage right in front of the old control tower and the old Austral terminal. That old building and the old parking garage are being demolished, and will house new gates that will go all the way to the cargo terminal and the catering kitchens for Gate Gourmet, The new control tower right above the AR operations and control center offices should open in the next couple of months.

There is also a plan to house more gates at the current Presidential terminal, but not sure if that is just a rumor or else.


Thanks for the details.
 
sticknrudder
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:38 am

This is one of the possible expansion plans @ EZE. Although there are no set dates for the posted masterplan, work has aready began on modifications to the terminals. I do not know how up to date is the plan below, which includes a new terminal and 3rd parallel runway.

Image
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:13 pm

And work on the new taxiway to RWY 35 is slated to begin next year. Right now, when RWY 35 is in use, backtracking is called for, adding delays at peak times.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:37 pm

Here's a short clip that features AEP new control tower and covered parking facilities. One can also appreciate how close to the city - and encroached by it - AEP really is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bvS0Bcm8Pg
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
incitatus
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:16 am

airbazar wrote:
Apples and oranges. For starters NYC is a market of 60+ million passengers and DC ~35 million, while both BUE airports barely amount to 21 million. I'm probably wrong but I can't think of any other 21 million market with 2 airports. With such few passengers there's really no reason to operate multiple airports.
(.....)


Are you referring to local traffic only? DCA and IAD have 45 million traffic total per year and Washington bleeds into BWI too. And NY metro area is more like 125 million pax per year. Cities with about 22 million pax traffic are Salt Lake City or Vienna or Bangalore.

Rio de Janeiro has two airports with about 27 million pax and would do better with a single airport as well.

To absorb any sustained and significant growth, Buenos Aires is going to have to do a lot more than musical chairs. A plan for EZE like shown in this thread is the right direction. If that does not happen, high growth will be killed with high fares.
Conservatives against Trump
 
r2rho
Posts: 2862
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Re: Argentina to force transfer International flights from Aeroparque to Ezeiza

Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:59 pm

It is inconvenient, but a necessary move, because AEP has barely any free capacity, and nobody will leave it voluntarily. IMO the BUE metro area can and should support two airports, specially in the long run, with AEP as the short haul p2p airport and EZE as the long haul and hub airport. But I would have done a perimeter rule, say 1000nm, rather than just banning intl flights.

In parallel, EZE will need investment, and better transport connections.

As for that airport project in EPA, I am generally against vertical integration at airports, as it restricts competition and makes for inefficient use of infrastructure. It's an interesting project, but I would only support it if it were owned by an airport authority, not an airline.

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