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brianK73
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:59 pm

lugie wrote:
brianK73 wrote:
How can it be cheaper than a conventional high-speed rail when there is:
1) a need to build air-tight tubes lined with powerful electromagnets
2) a need to maintain vacuum in the tube at all times
3) a need to devise a way to rescue a stopped train in the tube
4) a need to devise a way to cool the train's propulsion system in a vacuum since no air-cooling is possible

?


Easy - you don't need to acquire all the land you would have to for a conventional rail line since it's supposed to be running in etubes that are most likely to be on elevated structures, so instead of a several dozen feet wide corridor for a double-tracked regular gauge rail line over the entire distance of the route "all" you need are pillars carrying the tubes, maybe 4 or 5 per mile.
And those tube segments can be prefabricated, possibly including equipment for emergency access


You are underestimating the safety buffer zone requirement for protecting the air-tight, 1000Km-long vacuum tubes.
Since any sudden re-pressurization of the tube due to a breach of air-tight-seal is bound to cause catastrophic system-wide failure,
that is 15 psi "shock wave" travelling at speed of sound hitting the trains causing instant death in passengers in that tube,
you have to protect these tubes from errant construction equipment or a Timothy McVeigh wanna-be in a crane with a wrecking ball.

I don't see how fabricating, constructing, and maintaining such large-scale infrastructure can be cost effective against conventional air travel.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:11 pm

The hyperloop does not make sense for short trips as some have suggested, the need to go very fast goes along with going some distance.

Musk is going to change how we move much more than the hyperloop though, with autonomous cars. It will hurt all other modes of transport including air travel.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bhill
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:24 pm

None...I suspect you can build a small regional airport for FAR less than the cost of this infrastructure. Kinda like all of those "Olympic Cities/Villages" that have cropped up, and fell down over the decades...
Carpe Pices
 
blockski
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:51 pm

lugie wrote:
brianK73 wrote:
How can it be cheaper than a conventional high-speed rail when there is:
1) a need to build air-tight tubes lined with powerful electromagnets
2) a need to maintain vacuum in the tube at all times
3) a need to devise a way to rescue a stopped train in the tube
4) a need to devise a way to cool the train's propulsion system in a vacuum since no air-cooling is possible

?


Easy - you don't need to acquire all the land you would have to for a conventional rail line since it's supposed to be running in etubes that are most likely to be on elevated structures, so instead of a several dozen feet wide corridor for a double-tracked regular gauge rail line over the entire distance of the route "all" you need are pillars carrying the tubes, maybe 4 or 5 per mile.
And those tube segments can be prefabricated, possibly including equipment for emergency access


4 or 5 pillars per mile? So, 1000-1200 foot spans? You're basically talking about building the Millau Viaduct over and over again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct

And that says nothing about controlling for the allowable turning radius for speeds of 700 mph. You can forget following interstate highway rights of way designed for 70 mph curve radii.
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:57 pm

brianK73 wrote:

You are underestimating the safety buffer zone requirement for protecting the air-tight, 1000Km-long vacuum tubes.
Since any sudden re-pressurization of the tube due to a breach of air-tight-seal is bound to cause catastrophic system-wide failure,
that is 15 psi "shock wave" travelling at speed of sound hitting the trains causing instant death in passengers in that tube,
you have to protect these tubes from errant construction equipment or a Timothy McVeigh wanna-be in a crane with a wrecking ball.


It's much simpler than you are describing.
1. There will be 1000km long vacuum tube, there are low air pressure tube.
2. Tubes will be separated at certain interval, (Let's say 10KM) by some sort of valves, so a re-pressurization can be prevented from spreading into the whole system.
3. In case of a failure/re-pressurization, the tubes will just be filled with Normal air from outside and pods will make an emergency stop.
4. The low cost is based on assumption of
-Free/low cost land (Existing highway/rural areas)
-Free unlimited energy to power the system by installing solar pannels on top of the Tubes.
So a system between Dubai-Abu Dhabi or within Texas would be much more feasible/cheaper than lets' say North East corridor, where available land is very scarce.

Elon Musk has, so far, burned 14 Billion US§ of Investors Money. There seems to be no Limit as Long as fools Keep on pumpimg Money in.

Space shuttle cost close to $200 billion, and to develop new car from scratch, it cost upwards of $6 billion, and that does not include any re-fueling in-fracture or Dealer/Service network

So $14 Billion to
Develop & commercialize re-usable rockets
and
Develop & commercialize pollution free(or low Pollution) car Tech along with multiple Platforms, sales/service network as well as re-fueling infrastructure is a bargain.



Dutchy wrote:
Quite interesting technical achievement. Not there yet, but we'll have to see if it is going to mature in say 20 years. http://delfthyperloop.nl/#intro

Stop thinking in Aerospace R&D cycle and start thinking in Software Development cycles. Hyberloop went from theoretical concept to full scale Pod testing in less than four years, without little/No government support.
here is the picture of the actual pod being tested. IT IS FULL SCALE.
Jet Engine took over a decade to go from concept to full scale testing with massive Govt support with war time funding from multiple governments.

Image


Hyperloop is a point-to-point system, not a network. Consider a potential Hyperloop connecting hub. You would need dozens of connecting tubes descending on a central transfer point. Located above or below ground that becomes a lot of infrastructure to maintain. Instead my guess is that Hyperloop will probably be limited to some larger P2P markets.

Add in a few Self driving Cars on both ends, then we have a much great Point to Point system for distance upwards of 1000 KM.
It will be much cheaper/convenient than Air travel.

All of the proposals have a limited capacity. Tube and pod size, safety cushion spacing between passenger pods, number of tubes between cities, etc. will all limit the number of passengers. I have seen estimates of a maximum capacity between 500 to 1,000 passengers per hour each direction (assuming it is built as a two tube route). But again that is also just point-to-point.

If developed, Hyperloop systems will siphon off some passengers in some larger city pairs from other transportation modes. Those passengers will save time. But I don't see it eliminating the need for other short and mid distance transportation modes to handle additional passenger demand or smaller routes


Do not forget the productivity of the system. If a 10 Person (weighting less than your minivan) can travel at an average speed of 500mk/h, and assuming total distance is 750KM.
In a 24 Hour cycle, a single pod should be able to complete 7 return trip (assuming loading/unloading takes about 5 minutes) That's 70 person per day, each way.
50 Seat RJ Productivity: 2 Hour gate to gate time plus 30 minute loading/unloading time at the and 12.5 Hour daily maximum utilization= 2.5 round trip per day=50*2.5= 125 per day each way.

That's close to 60% of the productivity compared to 50 sear RJ with only 1/5 of the capacity,

Keep in mind this would be an autonomous system requiring no recurring fuel (solar powered) or labor while in motion.
Fuel and labor are the two largest cost element of airline operation by far. Without these costs, Operating cost of Hyperloop would be much cheaper compared to airlines.

Intra California routes, NE Corridor etc have more chance of disruption from flying cars than they do "hyperloop."

first of all, a flying car would be a design compromise and neither be a good car nor a good airplane. Given that limitation, How do you suppose FAA would mange over 20 million (rough estimate of cars in NE corridor) Flying cars within the Airspace of NE corridor?

How can it be cheaper than a conventional high-speed rail when there is:
1) a need to build air-tight tubes lined with powerful electromagnets
2) a need to maintain vacuum in the tube at all times
3) a need to devise a way to rescue a stopped train in the tube
4) a need to devise a way to cool the train's propulsion system in a vacuum since no air-cooling is possible



1) powerful electromagnets will have free electricity from Solar panels installed over the tubes=cheap to operate.
2) Not vacuum, but low air pressure.
3) that is still a problem as far as i know.
4) again Low air pressure, not Vacuum.

Odd thing.Elon has succeeded to date by using existing technology and making it more efficient.This is a 'blue sky' type project into the technical unknown.Nearly always turns out far harder than expected.

Isn't the Re-usable rocket that can return to it's landing pad for re-launch is the definition of 'blue sky' project.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:54 am

AirbusCanada wrote:
It's much simpler than you are describing.
1. There will be 1000km long vacuum tube, there are low air pressure tube.
2. Tubes will be separated at certain interval, (Let's say 10KM) by some sort of valves, so a re-pressurization can be prevented from spreading into the whole system.
3. In case of a failure/re-pressurization, the tubes will just be filled with Normal air from outside and pods will make an emergency stop.
4. The low cost is based on assumption of
-Free/low cost land (Existing highway/rural areas)
-Free unlimited energy to power the system by installing solar pannels on top of the Tubes.
So a system between Dubai-Abu Dhabi or within Texas would be much more feasible/cheaper than lets' say North East corridor, where available land is very scarce.

When there is a break in the tube there will be re-pressurization shock wave of up to 15psi travelling at the speed of sound travelling through the tube.


a) Can any vessel travelling at 700mph withstand such a shockwave head-on?
b) Can the said "some sort of valve" close in time to prevent the shock wave from propagating at a sonic speed?
c) Can any of the valves close safely while there are multiple vessels travelling at 700mph?
d) How complex and heavy duty and expensive these "some sort of valve" system be considering that it has to withstand a 15psi shock wave travelling at sonic speed?

According to an engineering estimate, the hollow tubing with internal diameter of 3m that can withstand the pressure differential of 1 atm has to be made of high tensile steel skin with at least 2" thickness. Otherwise the tubing would buckle under pressure differential.
You can make the skin thinner if you create internal bracing that is similar to aircraft monocoque fuselage, but good luck trying to fabricate a 1000-mile long aircraft fuselage equivalent with necessary expansion joints and make it more cost effective than the conventional high-speed rail right-of-way.

The sheer cost and vast amount of steel needed for such a tubing, by itself, make this whole concept impractical.
 
Whalejet
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:00 am

With the hyperloop, what exactly prevents some nutjob with a gun to shoot at the Hyperloop track, piercing the tube and causing an explosive decompression that kills everyone?

Too many risks for hyperloop right now.
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:33 am

Whalejet wrote:
With the hyperloop, what exactly prevents some nutjob with a gun to shoot at the Hyperloop track, piercing the tube and causing an explosive decompression that kills everyone.

No transportation system is safe from the lonely gunman/subotager schenatio.

High speed rail tracks can be damaged with rudemantery tools.
You can cause a multicar accident on a busy highway just by throwing a rock from an overpass.

Please contribute something to this debate instead of fearmongoring.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:36 am

AirbusCanada wrote:
1) powerful electromagnets will have free electricity from Solar panels installed over the tubes=cheap to operate.
2) Not vacuum, but low air pressure.
3) that is still a problem as far as i know.
4) again Low air pressure, not Vacuum.

1) Where does this "free electricity" come from before sunrise/after sunset?
For comparison, Japan's Superconducting Linear Motor Express spans the distance of 286Km and consumes 270K Watts
of electricity assuming five 10-car train sets going each way per hour. Each train set can carry around 600 passengers.
If the hyperloop train set is a single car unit carrying 60 passengers, 5 trains per hour in each direction, in a 600Km distance
we could estimate that the system as a whole would use 54KW of electricity.
It would cost at least $400 million to construct a solar-cell generation plant of this magnitude (cf. Sarnia Photovoltaic Power Plant),
and it would cost even more if the solar cells are placed in a non-optimal topology on the tubes.
The fact that none of the solar cell electricity generating plant is cost competitive with legacy power plant dispels the notion that
solar cells can supply "free electricity."

2) Not vacuum but low air pressure?
The Elon Musk's original concept has contradicting requirements. Low air pressure in the tube for low air resistance, yet, it requires
enough air pressure to keep the vessel "floating on air" of at least a fraction of an inch thick.

Near vacuum for low air resistance?, or enough air pressure for forming air cushion?, you cannot have both at the same time.
The same contradiction applies to Musk's concept in using ducted-fan propulsion in near vacuum.

In addition, these air-pressure requirements are not only self-contradicting, but also, they require the tubes to be laid-out with precision of
a few millimeters over a distance of 600K meters. How are they going to maintain such precision over that distance during construction,
and more importantly, how expensive it to make sure that precision is there once construction is complete?
 
Jomar777
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:05 am

To tell you the truth, I am not even sure that electric cars will really catch up to the extent to replace the current petrol/diesel ones 100%. This is because, once the rate of electric cars increase substantially, so it will the demand for electricity which needs to be produced somehow. The current batteries on electric cars are really dirty too so who knows what will come after.
Why this is relevant here? Because the Hyperloop is way way early on development than electric cars. I see the odd one being implemented but, at present, given the costs to implement and the likely fares to be accrued (even if those are not really charged but heavily subsidised) may potentially turn the whole thing into a tourist attraction/experience to be had rather than mass transportation.
I would say that MAGLEV technology would/could come first since it is already there but even this is not really moving forward.
Suffice to say that all those would impact firstly on car ownership and provide either competition or add on options for high speed trains but would ot significantly impact on aviation as it goes.
Note that the Hyperloop proposed, for example, between Dubai and Abu Dhabi will actually impact on the high speed bus line ran by Emirates between those cities not on anything else around.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:17 am

Whalejet wrote:
With the hyperloop, what exactly prevents some nutjob with a gun to shoot at the Hyperloop track, piercing the tube and causing an explosive decompression that kills everyone?

Too many risks for hyperloop right now.


The track is depressurized so you can't have an explosive decompression. A gun should not cause much damage really. Well, it would probably disrupt the traffic.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aquila3
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:02 pm

brianK73 wrote:

According to an engineering estimate, the hollow tubing with internal diameter of 3m that can withstand the pressure differential of 1 atm has to be made of high tensile steel skin with at least 2" thickness. Otherwise the tubing would buckle under pressure differential.
You can make the skin thinner if you create internal bracing that is similar to aircraft monocoque fuselage, but good luck trying to fabricate a 1000-mile long aircraft fuselage equivalent with necessary expansion joints and make it more cost effective than the conventional high-speed rail right-of-way.

The sheer cost and vast amount of steel needed for such a tubing, by itself, make this whole concept impractical.


Can you share some of this "engineering estimate"? I think you are on the thick side, by one order of magnitude at least. With your metrics u-boots should be several feet thick. I reckon that for manufacturing purposes, a 3 m pipe with walls thinner than some half inch could be impractical, but hey, two inches of high tensile steel? In compression stress?
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
r2rho
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:59 pm

-Free/low cost land (Existing highway/rural areas)

How are the land use requirements for hyperloop any different to those for HSR? They are pretty much the same... so no advantage tehre for hyperloop.
Furthermore, highways do not have the turning radii for the speeds that hyperloop would require, so they cannot be used.
--Free unlimited energy to power the system by installing solar pannels on top of the Tubes.

Energy is -never- free and -never- unlimited, that is yet another fallacy being happily spread by the techies. The amount of solar panels (and associated energy storage) to power the electromagnets of hyperloop would far exceed - by several orders of magnitude - the land use requirements of hyperloop.
-2) Not vacuum, but low air pressure.

Of course, an ideal vacuum is not possible to achieve. But the air pressure is low enough to have all the inconviences of having to maintain a near-vacuum.
-Isn't the Re-usable rocket that can return to it's landing pad for re-launch is the definition of 'blue sky' project.

The control systems to enable the rocket to return are indeed highly innovative. But the Falcon 9 rocket hardware itself is warmed-over existing technology.
Stop thinking in Aerospace R&D cycle and start thinking in Software Development cycles
If we were to develop an airplane that is as unsafe and unrealiable as a smartphone, those aerospace development cycles would be much much shorter, and costs would be much much lower. But I would not ride it. And, fortunately, the FAA would never allow it in the first place.
 
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brianK73
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:07 pm

Aquila3 wrote:
brianK73 wrote:

According to an engineering estimate, the hollow tubing with internal diameter of 3m that can withstand the pressure differential of 1 atm has to be made of high tensile steel skin with at least 2" thickness. Otherwise the tubing would buckle under pressure differential.
You can make the skin thinner if you create internal bracing that is similar to aircraft monocoque fuselage, but good luck trying to fabricate a 1000-mile long aircraft fuselage equivalent with necessary expansion joints and make it more cost effective than the conventional high-speed rail right-of-way.

The sheer cost and vast amount of steel needed for such a tubing, by itself, make this whole concept impractical.


Can you share some of this "engineering estimate"? I think you are on the thick side, by one order of magnitude at least. With your metrics u-boots should be several feet thick. I reckon that for manufacturing purposes, a 3 m pipe with walls thinner than some half inch could be impractical, but hey, two inches of high tensile steel? In compression stress?


In a sentence, hollow tubes without internal brace must have thicker walls.
Please refer to Hyperloop Alpha - SpaceX (pp.27) http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/file ... 130812.pdf
Passenger Hyperloop Tube
A tube wall thickness between 0.8 and 0.9 in. (20 to 23 mm) is necessary to provide sufficient strength for the load cases considered such as pressure differential, bending and buckling between pillars, loading due to the capsule weight and acceleration, as well as seismic considerations.


This best-case, rather optimistic assumption for wall thickness does not take into account, for example, the need for rigidity for 2-ton vessels glazing the wall at 700mph, nor does it account for the usual safety margin in the case external impact from the landslide, earthquake prone geography.
Also, this assumption does not take into account that the fraction of an inch straight-line precision that is required for the air-cushion scheme.
Because even high tensile-strength steel tubes inevitably sag between the pillars for more than a few millimeters, they cannot use just straight steel pipes alone; they would require external bracing to keep them from sagging too much. All of which adds to the expense and material cost of the tubes.

If you think laying down two pairs of steel rails for conventional high-speed train is expensive, do you really think laying down a pair of 3-meter diameter steel tubes with 20mm~50mm wall thickness at a fraction of an inch precision can be cheaper?
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:30 pm

r2rho wrote:
How are the land use requirements for hyperloop any different to those for HSR? They are pretty much the same... so no advantage tehre for hyperloop.
Furthermore, highways do not have the turning radii for the speeds that hyperloop would require, so they cannot be used.


Unlike conventional Highway/High Speed rail which are barricaded from neighboring communities for safety reason.
Hyperloop tubes will be elevated, making lands under them available for agricultural purpose. The concept is similar to windmill contracts, where the windmill operator pays a small part of the revenue earned from electricity generation to the a firm owner, instead of buying a whole firm to plance a few windmills.

r2rho wrote:
Energy is -never- free and -never- unlimited, that is yet another fallacy being happily spread by the techies. The amount of solar panels (and associated energy storage) to power the electromagnets of hyperloop would far exceed - by several orders of magnitude - the land use requirements of hyperloop.


Please provide credible sources before calming "By several Orders of Magnitude".
The Entire electricity consumption of U.S. (425 GW) can be generated with a solar firm sized of 100km x 100km,= 10,000 km2. That's with existing technology.

Source: http://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/energy/2015/05/2 ... er-the-us/

A solar firm 750KM long and 10M wide would not only produce enough energy for the hyperloop operation, but would have surplus electricity to sell to the open market.


r2rho wrote:
The control systems to enable the rocket to return are indeed highly innovative. But the Falcon 9 rocket hardware itself is warmed-over existing technology.

Laws of Physics cannot be changed with Technology.
By this logic, the Airbus 380 is just an warm over right brother's airplane, with better propulsion technology and better materials.

r2rho wrote:
If we were to develop an airplane that is as unsafe and unrealiable as a smartphone, those aerospace development cycles would be much much shorter, and costs would be much much lower. But I would not ride it. And, fortunately, the FAA would never allow it in the first place


Wrong analogy.
Falcon 9 was developed in less than five years(Software development cycles), unlike the space shuttle which took over a decade to develop(Aerospace R&D cycle).
 
r2rho
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Unlike conventional Highway/High Speed rail which are barricaded from neighboring communities for safety reason.
Hyperloop tubes will be elevated, making lands under them available for agricultural purpose.

There is absolutely no reason why HSR can't be elevated too. But, apart from those areas where viaducts are necessary, it isn't, because building elevated structures for the sole sake of building elevated structures is, well, expensive. Plus the added maintenance complexity when it is in service.

By this logic, the Airbus 380 is just an warm over right brother's airplane, with better propulsion technology and better materials.

And the automobile is a warmed-over roman chariot. Sure.
The Falcon 9 makes very smart and efficient use of off-the shelf components. But - outside the advanced controls - not much was newly developed from scratch for it. It is not much different, technology wise, to rockets of the 80's or 90's. I am not saying it is a bad rocket - it is in fact performing quite well as we can see.
The A380 features many technologies developed explicitly for this aircraft. It is quite different, technology-wise, to the Wright flyer.

Laws of Physics cannot be changed with Technology.

Correct. Yet hyperloop would need to do exactly that if the claim that it is cheaper than HSR is to be true.

Falcon 9 was developed in less than five years(Software development cycles)

What Falcon 9 has done quite well, as a private enterprise, is to avoid the usual government-related decision cycles, which easily make up 40% of the "development" time of a government-sponsored spacecraft. Saving on reliability and safety has further shortened the cycle, as well as a more dynamic mindset. Learning by doing - thanks to the cargo customers willing to take the risk of putting cargo on an initially immature design - has also helped. That's good, it's nice to see some people taking risk again. The development cycle is not finished yet - there is a lot of work remaining if Falcon9 is to carry humans one day - as the space shuttle did.
 
2175301
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:35 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Wrong analogy.
Falcon 9 was developed in less than five years(Software development cycles), unlike the space shuttle which took over a decade to develop(Aerospace R&D cycle).


You are total correct its the wrong analogy. The technology and demonstrated know how on how to land a rocket on a surface was developed and used for the Apollo Program in the 1960's (1969 moon landing).

Falcon 9 only took an existing and multi-times well proven concept and technology and updated it with some modern components and software. Not saying it's not an achievement. But, far from original.

Have a great day,

I need to update this: The Apollo program was far more complicated. After landing successfully, the rocket then had to take off again without servicing and perform its job safely enough to carry humans. Just landing a used casing that does not have to take off again... simplicity in comparison.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:56 am

r2rho wrote:
The same with the ICE in Germany and AVE in Spain.

The ICE, not really. It is conceived more as a medium distance transport system, with many stops in intermediate cities, few dedicated tracks, and lower speeds than France or Spain. It does not compete with air above 400km. Particularly between the four corners Munich, Hamburg, Berlin, Stuttgart, air travel dominates.


Only if you have direct flights, and those flights more or less go to and from your destination. I regularly travel on a 500 km stretch with the ICE, and the plane just can't compete with that. If I had to go by plane I would either have to connect at a different airport, or end up at an airport with a 1 hour train ride to my ultimate destination. I'm not even traveling between small cities.

With train I have a 50 meter walk to the nearest tram stop, and from there it's 5 hours to the ICE stop 200 meters from my final destination, all on one cheap ticket. Once they finish upgrading and building new high speed lines in some years, we are looking at travel times of down to 3 hours on my journey.

With plane it is 5 to 6 hours, and 4 separate tickets required. Yes, the flight only takes 1 hour, but getting to and from the airport plus waiting just eats up the advantage the plane has over the train.

The reality is that since Lufthansa limited itself to pretty much Frankfurt and München, the average passenger lost out on a ton of domestic flights that Eurowings never replaced.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:29 pm

Musk just tweeted that the hyperloop was approved from washington-NYC? http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/20/elon-mus ... nd-dc.html not sure how much the approval really matters...
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:19 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Musk just tweeted that the hyperloop was approved from washington-NYC? http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/20/elon-mus ... nd-dc.html not sure how much the approval really matters...

And, he won't disclose who actually gave him this "approval." :roll: Sounds like nothing more than an attention grab to me.
 
Flighty
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:39 pm

I bet hyperloop will be implemented in some cases. But ALL land transport is going to be autonomous and pod-based soon. You can call a pod and get from your home in Boston to a point in New York in probably an hour. Over long distances, the speed would be 125 mph. But even in urban gridlock, these pods will go 50 mph autonomously.

Hyperloop has this advantage of low air drag, and lack of inept drivers to screw up the capacity of the line. But autonomous cars will have the same capacity advantage as Hyperloop. Urban congestion will not exist in 25 years in modern cities. So Musk's problems in California (for example) will be fixed by autonomous cars before there is any need for a Hyperloop. I guess it will specialize in underwater crossings or distances greater than about 30 miles. Then your car might get bundled into a Hyperloop thingy and sent up to 500-700 mph, perhaps under today's interstate highway system, following roughly the same paths.
 
KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:55 pm

Musk is only building buzz for the release of the Tesla Model 3. Nothing to see here.
 
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:25 am

Flighty wrote:
I bet hyperloop will be implemented in some cases. But ALL land transport is going to be autonomous and pod-based soon. You can call a pod and get from your home in Boston to a point in New York in probably an hour. Over long distances, the speed would be 125 mph. But even in urban gridlock, these pods will go 50 mph autonomously.

Hyperloop has this advantage of low air drag, and lack of inept drivers to screw up the capacity of the line. But autonomous cars will have the same capacity advantage as Hyperloop. Urban congestion will not exist in 25 years in modern cities. So Musk's problems in California (for example) will be fixed by autonomous cars before there is any need for a Hyperloop. I guess it will specialize in underwater crossings or distances greater than about 30 miles. Then your car might get bundled into a Hyperloop thingy and sent up to 500-700 mph, perhaps under today's interstate highway system, following roughly the same paths.

Unfortunately, I don't think underwater would be a very good idea. Maybe from shore to something just a ways offshore, as has been discussed by the company, but certainly not any kind of meaningful distance. If the inside of the tube is already at near-vacuum, the last thing you would want is to put the tube far underwater where it will receive greater external pressure than on the ground. I don't think a floating system would work over any meaningful distance. Water, especially tidally affected water, is a VERY powerful destructive force. For what I understand of the concept, it requires stability to operate. If hyperloop ever gets off the ground, it will be on, slightly above, or slightly below the ground. For that matter, I wonder how an underground hyperloop would stand up to earthquakes.

As far as intercontinental travel goes, I don't think the aviation industry is under any threat from hyperloop.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:55 am

aerolimani wrote:
For that matter, I wonder how an underground hyperloop would stand up to earthquakes.

As far as intercontinental travel goes, I don't think the aviation industry is under any threat from hyperloop.


Underground is definitely the stablest place to stand up earthquakes.

Underground would solve many other problems, like external objects colliding with the tube, whether intentional or unintentional, and excessive cost of land in populated and constructed areas.

Excavating the tunnel is not that expensive, though that depends on the site, but constructing inside the tunnel is expensive because of tight logistics.

There still remains safety issues so that I do not bet hyperloop being reality very soon, if ever. I speculate that ordinary and high speed trains pose a much stronger thread for short-haul aviation. For long-haul transport no train will be competitive to airlines unless fuel price raises to another order of magnitude.
 
DerekCZ
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:32 pm

From what I saw, their "succesful" test were sending a train-like thingy through a tunnel using already deveoped maglev technology. The tube was not even vacuumed (<- ?) so I think they did those test just to keep the news agencies attention.
#etopskilledquads
 
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hvusslax
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:49 pm

I am amazed by the power that a name can have. If some nobody came up with the concept for "Hyperloop", that person would just be ignored at best and ridiculed by most people who bothered to actually study the concept. But since it was Elon Musk who came up with the idea and gave it a catchy name it keeps getting discussed like a serious thing even when the insurmountable engineering, economical and political problems with the concept are obvious. The fact that Musk released his back-of-the-napkin ideas into the wild with no intention of getting personally involved with his own cash should be evidence enough that this will never go anywhere. The man is smart but hardly infallible and as an auto maker he has vested interests in trying to undermine other modes of transport, including HSR.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:55 pm

Where is the peoplemover? All these promises were made before for the peoplemover. I'm sad it is no loner running at Disneyland, but I really enjoyed riding it at DisneyWorld. Building the multitude of access the hyperloop requires is exactly like the video before the peoplemover. Heck, most of the pitch could come off that ride.

I hope the technology works. I'm more interested in autonomous cars.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:40 pm

Hyperloop One, the startup building the Hyperloop has successfully tested its XP-1 passenger pod, reaching speeds of up to 192 mph and levitating off the track as it accelerated.

XP-1 traveled for just over 300 meters before the brakes kicked in and it rolled to a gradual stop, hitting a top speed of 192 mph. That speed puts Hyperloop One's system a little bit ahead of Category 1 high-speed rail, which has a maximum running speed of 155mph, although it's not yet faster than Japan's bullet train.

link: https://www.engadget.com/2017/08/02/hyp ... -xp1-test/

Youtube vidoe https://youtu.be/jjv7bB9hy0k

If successful, this is going to be a serious threat to both aviation & conventional/High speed rail , specially between busy city pairs within 1000KM radius.
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:17 pm

hvusslax wrote:
I am amazed by the power that a name can have. If some nobody came up with the concept for "Hyperloop", that person would just be ignored at best and ridiculed by most people who bothered to actually study the concept. But since it was Elon Musk who came up with the idea and gave it a catchy name it keeps getting discussed like a serious thing even when the insurmountable engineering, economical and political problems with the concept are obvious. The fact that Musk released his back-of-the-napkin ideas into the wild with no intention of getting personally involved with his own cash should be evidence enough that this will never go anywhere. The man is smart but hardly infallible and as an auto maker he has vested interests in trying to undermine other modes of transport, including HSR.


What you described above did happen to Elon Musk in 2002. He tried to buy Russian rocket engine with his own money. His goal was to use the rockets to send a miniature experimental greenhouse to Mars. Well, they laughed at him.
Fast forward a a decade and a half, Now he is challenging entire Russian rocket industry.

I believe the term you are describing is "Track-Record", not "name".

So far he has made substantial progress towards delivering two most outlandish ideas: zero emission self driving cars and cheap reusable rockets capable of going to Mars.

If tomorrow, he claims he will developed a pill to instantly cure stage-four cancer in five years, the stock prices of big Pharma will fall drastically within the hour, thanks to his current Track-Record.

Until he fails to deliver one of his promises, people will take him seriously.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:10 pm

The more I read about it the less likely this thing will amount to anything at all. It will successfully dupe investors and politicans(tax payers) for awhile.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:12 am

AirbusCanada wrote:
hvusslax wrote:
I am amazed by the power that a name can have. If some nobody came up with the concept for "Hyperloop", that person would just be ignored at best and ridiculed by most people who bothered to actually study the concept. But since it was Elon Musk who came up with the idea and gave it a catchy name it keeps getting discussed like a serious thing even when the insurmountable engineering, economical and political problems with the concept are obvious. The fact that Musk released his back-of-the-napkin ideas into the wild with no intention of getting personally involved with his own cash should be evidence enough that this will never go anywhere. The man is smart but hardly infallible and as an auto maker he has vested interests in trying to undermine other modes of transport, including HSR.


What you described above did happen to Elon Musk in 2002. He tried to buy Russian rocket engine with his own money. His goal was to use the rockets to send a miniature experimental greenhouse to Mars. Well, they laughed at him.
Fast forward a a decade and a half, Now he is challenging entire Russian rocket industry.

I believe the term you are describing is "Track-Record", not "name".

So far he has made substantial progress towards delivering two most outlandish ideas: zero emission self driving cars and cheap reusable rockets capable of going to Mars.

If tomorrow, he claims he will developed a pill to instantly cure stage-four cancer in five years, the stock prices of big Pharma will fall drastically within the hour, thanks to his current Track-Record.

Until he fails to deliver one of his promises, people will take him seriously.


Musk's track-record would be relevant if he or his companies were involved in developing the concept beyond the bare-bones simplistic white paper. He is not.

The rcent Hyperloop One tests were about accelerating a sled along a maglev track to reach a speed lower than the fastest standard trains already do. It's basically a show to scam more money out of investors by "demonstrating" already proven technology while not addressing any of the engineering challenges specific to the hyperloop concept. Musk's original hyperloop concept didn't even use maglev technology for levitating the pods as it was considered too expensive, it suggested having the pods float on air bearings instead. In a way, Hyperloop One has made negative progress from the original hyperloop concept.
 
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airmagnac
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:15 am

AirbusCanada wrote:
If successful, this is going to be a serious threat to both aviation & conventional/High speed rail, specially between busy city pairs within 1000KM radius.


It is a necessary step in the testing, and fairly interesting, but it is still just a Maglev moving through a de-pressurised tube, with little interdependence betwen these two aspects. Maglev has been under test for 50 years (with heavy government support by the way), and de-pressurised vessels have been used for a lot longer. While it does show that Hyperloop is moving forward, it still does not advance beyond current state-of-the-art.

That will only be when a pod with a complete structural envelope travels through several miles of tube complete with nominal access points and basic emergency systems. Only then will it be possible to assess thermal and pressure aspects, human factors, tunnel integrity and construction tolerances. Only then will we stop seeing how each of its building blocks behave seperately, and we will start to see the complete hyperloop system, how it behaves, and how much it costs. And how it fails...and that's the point where authorities will start writing regulations...

Anyhow, while I am very interested by the technical concept, on the business side I just do not see how Hyperloop adds any value outside of specific city pairs 500-1000 miles aprt, with significant bilateral business exchanges (meaning there is a reservoir of business travellers for whom gaining an hour of travel time has value).
Outside of that, the costs of setting up, running and maintaining a completely new infrastructure will simply be way too expensive for the added value.

AirbusCanada wrote:
Stop thinking in Aerospace R&D cycle and start thinking in Software Development cycles


Software, by definition, is not hardware.
No tangible parts means no manufacturing, no wear & tear, fatigue, external damage, thermal effects, vibrations, corrosion, no maintenance....so much less aspects to consider in development. So it's all much easier and faster.
Want to prototype a software ? all you need is a computer. Want to prototype hardware ? you'll need to manufacture the whole thing.

Want to modify software to correct an issue ? just copy/paste the code, save it under a new version, and do the correction and run it for testing.

Want to to modify hardware ? Everything to re-inestigate,then manufacturing tools to update, then re-manufacture the whole thing then update the test rigs then test then update the maintenance tools.

Hyperloop definitely includes hardware, used in novel conditions, with the ultimate goal of transporting humans safely
So stop thinking in Software Development cycles and start thinking in Aerospace R&D cycle ! There is still a long troubled way to the inauguration of the first Hyperloop, like it or not.
My goal as an engineer is to fill my soul with coffee and become immortal
 
Socrates17
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:07 pm

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I couldn't stop thinking about this story that I read almost 60 years ago. It was published originally in 1940, before affordable air travel or the Interstate Highway System. This technology didn't happen (either).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll
You Can't Take the Sky from Me
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Hyperloop - Possible Implications for Aviation Industry?

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:42 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I think hyperloop will replace shuttle services, say LA to San Franciso.


As a Californian, I am skeptical. By the time all the environmental impact studies are done and all the political horses are traded, I am not sure that we will have a decent system. Look at CA-HSR. It got bogged down in all the political and regulatory crap and now it's probably not going to happen.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan

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