kabq737
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:09 pm

32andBelow wrote:
MKENut wrote:
I like the new livery they have picked out... but a CRJ? They better hope fuel prices are stable then which I think will be the case for awhile since North America has been pumping out more oil as of late and has proven reserves larger than Saudi Arabia. I know this is a pipe dream of mine and has been for awhile... I would love to see Midwest Express flying a C Series aircraft. A startup airline is really difficult, but I think people are hungry for an airline with great service and roomier seating. Something I wouldn't hesitate to pay extra for.

You just described Jet Blue.

Or Delta premium economy.
320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 764, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD88, MD90, E70, E90, TRIM
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:18 pm

knope2001 wrote:
And...we may just have an idea why Southwest suddenly adding Milwaukee to Cleveland, Nashville, Houston and a second trip to St Louis are a priority. During an eight-month period when almost zero other new daily domestic routes were added, Southwest has made these Milwaukee shifts. The only non-Milwaukee daily domestic city pair added between early August and early April is SAN-TPA.

Why the new Southwest routes at MKE given the tight fleet?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1369583&p=19704153#p19704153


If this is what has led Southwest to suddenly need to make these Milwaukee moves then (a) word of this must be out there and (b) Southwest must view this as reasonably credible. And some or all of the new WN Milwaukee markets are in the plans of a new Midwest Express.

Yes. A guy that made a website and holds no office space or even money to fund his idea spooked one of the strongest airlines in the industry..
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
newburg1
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:18 pm

I worked for Air Wisconsin and would love to be back in the Airline industry-It is in my blood. As I said I sent my information to the website and awaiting reply. All that being said, I have as many questions (maybe more) as any investor would. Fleet, MX location, gates,in house work, ect. Also the CRJ has operations costs not that far from the out of production 717. At the time that Midex flew The DC 9 series has around high 800 to mid 900 gallon fuel burn. The equivalent 737 series is between 700-800 gallon per hour burn. these are for the same engine. That was from information from older Air Transport World magazines The MD 80 added seats to spread the costs. No indication of fleet, but that can make or break the success of this venture. The CRJ can be made into a very comfortable ride even in airline service. The CRJ 700-900 could be a starter aircraft.
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:20 pm

When I saw the headline I thought it was too good to be true. I'm not a fan of CR2s though, or the color scheme that they've selected. In fact it will be difficult to live up to their promise of "comfortable seating and chocolate cookies" if that's the aircraft type they choose.

knope2001 wrote:
If they are confident they can get enough business travelerse willing to pay $250-$300 to fly nonstop between Milwaukee and Columbus, the idea of a 40-seat CRJ (as an example) is more promising than if they run a 40-seat CRJ between Milwaukee and Panama City FL and price cut to attract vacationers.

With FoxConn joining the ranks of companies in the state, surely there will be more business folks clamoring for direct flights to MKE.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
drdisque
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:57 pm

Northwest and TPG bought YX because they didn't want AirTran buying up a fortress hub right in the middle of their "heartland" strategy and thus ruining it. NW also made some half-ass attempts to run routes codeshared with YX - they allowed the YX code to go on MKE-DTW (which YX didn't serve) and NW ran some routes out of MKE to the west coast with the YX code on them after YX retired the MD-80s. I don't think any YX flights carried the NW code but I might be wrong.

A Onejet for MKE? There might be a market - I think the prime routes would be OMA (which was a decent route for YX but dependent on small regional equipment), IND (which I think worked for Onejet but then they got an offer they couldn't refuse to move their base to PIT), and maybe DSM or CMH. GRR Maybe has potential too but is a very short block time.
 
Indy
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:28 am

I would love to see the old Midwest Express come back. I want the one with all business class type seats and the fresh baked cookies. Worth paying extra for.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MKENut
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:45 am

knope2001 wrote:
Local pressed has picked on this:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/bus ... 552399001/



A source within Milwaukee's business community said members of the group have been shopping the concept and seeking investors in recent weeks.

The group has apparently purchased the branding and logo for the airline.

When asked about the effort Tuesday, Tim Hoeksema, the former CEO of Midwest Express who has a home in Lake Geneva, replied by email, "It is my understanding that two individuals (including a former Midwest Airlines employee) are attempting to start an airline using the Midwest Express name. I am not involved in this effort."


I see it is Curt Drumm of Manitowoc and probably Greg Aretakis trying to revive Midwest Express.
 
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OA940
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:06 am

They're planning a Midwest comeback in 2017? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!! Although I would love to see them fly...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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illinoisman
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:43 am

knope2001 wrote:
When asked about the effort Tuesday, Tim Hoeksema, the former CEO of Midwest Express who has a home in Lake Geneva, replied by email, "It is my understanding that two individuals (including a former Midwest Airlines employee) are attempting to start an airline using the Midwest Express name. I am not involved in this effort."

Who wants to remember how the cookies crumbled? Back in 2007, Tim Hoeksema very publicly spurned an offer to merge YX with FL and entered into a merger agreement with TPG Capital and NW instead. While this enriched the YX executives, it blunted FL's plans to expand into a national carrier, thereby denying MKE an opportunity be a major hub of an-up-and-coming carrier. FL expanded at MKE but competition forced it into a merger with WN and this lead to the collapse of YX and subsequently F9. WN has been decent for MKE but a growing FL would have been better.

Indy wrote:
I would love to see the old Midwest Express come back. I want the one with all business class type seats and the fresh baked cookies. Worth paying extra for.

Only bring them back if it's the same service and big leather seats, not CRJs. I still have the full set of dishes and trays they gave each person for dining service.
 
Indy
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:49 am

illinoisman wrote:
Indy wrote:
I would love to see the old Midwest Express come back. I want the one with all business class type seats and the fresh baked cookies. Worth paying extra for.

Only bring them back if it's the same service and big leather seats, not CRJs. I still have the full set of dishes and trays they gave each person for dining service.


I flew them once many years ago. Flew MKE-MCI-FLL (I think it was FLL). And then the return trip to MKE. Love it. Just a very comfortable experience. The boarding and departure from MCI was comical. The plane was a late arrival and the crew was shooting for an on time departure. I've never seen a flight boarded that fast before. They wasted no time pushing back and the taxi speeds seemed a bit high. The turns were more entertaining than normal.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:01 am

YX customers were some of the most loyal and fervent customers. I remember the wars on this site from YX folks about how horrible FL was and what a bad airline FL was. FL to their discredit tried and tried again only to see it go down in flames but it seems that perhaps many of the old YX customers wished to be able to go back and make different decisions about the merger?

Second item: why does everyone take the CRJ as gospel and concrete evidence on a startup aircraft? It's just a preliminary photo and to an extent wishful thinking to get the airline off the ground. I am sure that if they get funding they will most likely start with an affordable lower mileage aircraft or if they get serious funding perhaps they would start with some C-Series (that would be the most like the 717's and MD80's with 3-2 seating.

Third item: there have been many many airlines start and fail. There have been many more that started, seemingly made it only to be bought out or merged with and then there have been some make it and remain sole entities. Just a one page website announcing their intentions does not make OR break an airline. Give them a chance and see what happens. IF the loyal customers of yesteryore support a new YX perhaps they will make it. Would be interesting to see. If YX makes a comeback then perhaps we will also see a new revived Independence Air, Skybus or even a new HOOTERS AIR!
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
Varsity1
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:02 am

Midwest Express was the only airline I paid significantly more for. Business class throughout and warm cookies. Ultra professional airline culture in my experience.
 
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tb727
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:08 am

Hmmm, I don't know. It sounds pretty promising and the website looks legit. I'd invest in it if I didn't have all my money wrapped up in a little secret start-up I know of. I don't want to give any secrets away but they just signed a lease for a 767, looking at flying flights from the New York City area to St Petersburg.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
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JBo
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:08 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Times have changed. To me the biggest mistake YX made was when they split the fleet into Signature seating for the 717's and Saver seating for the MD-80's. It reminded me of the Continental/Continental Lite fiasco blurring the brand. In hindsight, making both models dual class with maybe a 40/60 Signature/Saver layout would have been a more unified approach from a marketing standpoint.


More broadly, the biggest issue with YX was that Uncle Timmy didn't have the proper vision or leadership to adapt YX's business model into something more lucrative and profitable in a changing industry.

The 2x2 seating on the DC-9s/MD-80s/717s was great during the 90s when airlines made money hand over fist, but taking out an entire column of seats just wasn't financially feasible in a changing, post-9/11 industry.

Unfortunately, I think Hoeksema was too reluctant/afraid to turn YX into a dual-class airline, so instead you wound up with the disjointed product of having MD-80s with 2x3 seating serving the leisure routes to Florida, while the 717s kept the 2x2 seating on the business markets.

Towards the end, they experimented with adding dual-class seating (the MD-80s received a handful of 2x2 seats up front, while the 717s were to be split about half/half), but it was too messy.

In hindsight, Hoeksema should have just stepped down and handed the reins to someone who could have steered YX towards a more JetBlue-like product where they could have still offered a premium class product, but in a way that was more financially lucrative for what they had.

Instead, he chose to go down with the ship.

To be fair, I'm not sure we would have been any better off by combining with FL; my gut tells me that the MKE hub would have eventually drawn down either way.

That said, I personally wish the name would be left to lay at rest. Midwest is done. There won't be another like it.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
2175301
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:28 am

I think they might succeed.... if they can get funding. The original Midwest used smaller planes to fly between regional cities centered. I would fly them again in a heartbeat (they were my favorite airline and the only one back then I had a frequent flyer number for). I would more than be happy to fly regional jets between Milwaukee and cities within a 10 hour drive. I think a lot of other people would too...

Have a great day,
 
rbavfan
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:34 am

lavalampluva wrote:
The name and logo aren't owned by WN any longer?


Southwest never owned the rights or had anything to do with them. They merged with Frontier in 2010.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:41 am

AntonioMartin wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
ENOUGH, ALREADY ! ! ! Anyone out there with a king's ransom of cash burning a hole in their mattress, just waiting for the chance to start another airline in the USA, should read this . . . make that read AND memorize this! . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... ted_States

Exhuming the collective corpse of ANY defunct airline of the USA is INSANE ! ! ! The only one that has survived is Frontier, yet the current Frontier bears little or no resemblance to the former Frontier. So, before someone else springs up wanting to start up "the next ValuJet", PLEASE, let the names of our defunct carriers rest in peace!

Actually Delta has survived too...lots of people forget, the current Delta is the resurrection of the original Delta which IIRC lasted from 1930-1934?

Eastern's survived too..(for now anyways)

Aside from that, I wish them better than the latest version of PeopleXpress!


Once they became Delta they always had the Delta in the name. In 1953 they merged with Chicago & Southern and flew as Delta-C&S for 2 years. They were NEVER reserrected as they had never stopped flying!
 
rbavfan
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:50 am

Web wrote:
mtnwest1979 wrote:
LOL they show a CRJ 200 with an over wing exit. Guess they don't quite know what they want. :)

As a current CR2 driver, I can assure you row 8 is an exit row. Although there is no row 13 on the right side because that's where the lav is.

On topic, if this startup wants to be even remotely viable, the CRJ of any flavor is not the way to go. They would be much better off modeling their operation off of Porter and getting Q400s (and flying out of Meigs instead of MKE, but that wound is still too fresh). The majors are getting rid of turboprops at their regionals at the moment but only because oil is cheap. There's no guarantee that will remain the case. As soon as oil goes back up, any airline relying on RJs to make money will be hurting.

In any case, there has not been a new viable, scheduled Part 121 airline on the scene since VX. It's about time for a new entrant into the US market. I truly wish them the best!


Meigs was torn down and replaced by a park in 2003 by the city of Chicago. So even the Q400 would have a rough time landing there.
 
StrandedAtMKG
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:54 am

Tailwinds wrote:
I can just imagine the investor pitch.... "It'll be just like Independence Air but we'll succeed where they failed because we'll be using the exact same airframes, just 15 years older! We're saving so much in depreciation!"


I'm relatively young, so I wasn't around for the demise of giants like Pan Am and Eastern, so in my book Indy is the saddest story in all of American aviation. UA hit the skids and pulled the plug on ACA, and they clung desperately for as long as they could, but they were doomed from the get-go and they knew it.

As for this site and the (apparent) attempt at resurrecting Midex, I wish them well but I'm not getting my hopes up. Midex was a great little operation, and at least in my then-teenaged mind they had a good reputation as "the businessman's airline." I think a lot of people are inferring a lot from one rendering of the new Midex livery on one CRJ, though. Just because they have a CRJ on one page on their website doesn't necessarily mean they're aiming for an all-CRJ operation.
 
0newair0
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:08 am

This is just another paper airline.

Website is registered David Troup of DCT Technologies, Inc. which is a webdesign / internet marketing company based in Green Bay (http://www.dmistudios.com/)

Midwest trademarks are registered to Curtis W. Drumm of Knuell Street in Manitowoc, WI under the company name Midwest Flight Support, LLC
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
rbavfan
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:15 am

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
Tailwinds wrote:
I can just imagine the investor pitch.... "It'll be just like Independence Air but we'll succeed where they failed because we'll be using the exact same airframes, just 15 years older! We're saving so much in depreciation!"


I'm relatively young, so I wasn't around for the demise of giants like Pan Am and Eastern, so in my book Indy is the saddest story in all of American aviation. UA hit the skids and pulled the plug on ACA, and they clung desperately for as long as they could, but they were doomed from the get-go and they knew it.

As for this site and the (apparent) attempt at resurrecting Midex, I wish them well but I'm not getting my hopes up. Midex was a great little operation, and at least in my then-teenaged mind they had a good reputation as "the businessman's airline." I think a lot of people are inferring a lot from one rendering of the new Midex livery on one CRJ, though. Just because they have a CRJ on one page on their website doesn't necessarily mean they're aiming for an all-CRJ operation.



What is ACA? can you use the proper 2 digit code if it's an airline.
 
0newair0
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:18 am

rbavfan wrote:
What is ACA? can you use the proper 2 digit code if it's an airline.


Atlantic Coast Airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Airlines
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:26 am

I always thought of Midwest as a business-class version of Southwest, except I'm not at all sure how business-y the service was or how expensive they were.

Not that we know all the details or if it'll successfully take-off, but I'd prefer if they went by "Midwest Airlines" instead of "Midwest Express"; the latter sounds like a regional airline (which, it sort of is anyways, with just one hub or maybe two if they decide to serve MCI again too), although I guess it's more of a classic name too. Would flying with a319s or CSeries be too big for a startup on certain markets out of MKE? Again, we don't know the details on the fleet if it happens, but people just don't like flying regional jets long distances, if at all, so this may hinder YX who prefer WN's wider aircraft.
 
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csturdiv
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:37 am

rbavfan wrote:
Web wrote:
mtnwest1979 wrote:
LOL they show a CRJ 200 with an over wing exit. Guess they don't quite know what they want. :)

As a current CR2 driver, I can assure you row 8 is an exit row. Although there is no row 13 on the right side because that's where the lav is.

On topic, if this startup wants to be even remotely viable, the CRJ of any flavor is not the way to go. They would be much better off modeling their operation off of Porter and getting Q400s (and flying out of Meigs instead of MKE, but that wound is still too fresh). The majors are getting rid of turboprops at their regionals at the moment but only because oil is cheap. There's no guarantee that will remain the case. As soon as oil goes back up, any airline relying on RJs to make money will be hurting.

In any case, there has not been a new viable, scheduled Part 121 airline on the scene since VX. It's about time for a new entrant into the US market. I truly wish them the best!


Meigs was torn down and replaced by a park in 2003 by the city of Chicago. So even the Q400 would have a rough time landing there.


Did you stop reading at the word "Meigs", he did go on to say "that wound is still too fresh".
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:48 am

rbavfan wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List
Once they became Delta they always had the Delta in the name. In 1953 they merged with Chicago & Southern and flew as Delta-C&S for 2 years. They were NEVER reserrected as they had never stopped flying!

I guess we are both partially correct. Delta did stop flying...passenger service that is...between 1930 and 1934. Greetings!
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:30 am

I agree that a revival would work amazingly with a CSeries fleet. Seat technology has advanced enough that you can pack more people in and still have decently sized seats and the 3-2 seating would be perfect.
 
2175301
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:22 am

LupineChemist wrote:
I agree that a revival would work amazingly with a CSeries fleet. Seat technology has advanced enough that you can pack more people in and still have decently sized seats and the 3-2 seating would be perfect.


I agree with the ultimate plane choice; but it would be 2-2 seating; with legroom.

Midwest Airlines offered only essentially a business class seating aircraft (2-2 on 717 in the end) at a premium price; and was successful at that. At that time their principal clientele were business people. I personally believe they would still exist had they not acquired MD-80's and other longer distance aircraft and chased the tourist/ general consumer market primarily going west (even adopting 2-3 seating in some cases). Yes it increased passenger counts; but, it also reduced ticket costs to attract those tourist and general consumers and in my opinion was the basis of the financial ruin of the company.

I believe that there is still a lot of business travel in the Milwaukee area that would flock back to a renewed Midwest Airlines for one stop trips no further than the East Coast. That is what makes this restart plausible. Initially they would only serve 4-6 destinations; as did the early Midwest Airlines.

They also had a very loyal charter operation.

Have a great day,
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:13 pm

I remember getting a wonderful meal on a flight from IAD-MKE.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
rj777
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:33 pm

I hope this becomes a reality! Would be awesome!
 
drgmobile
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:44 pm

This is always the easiest way to spot a start up airline failure -- when it's based on some romantic memory and a conviction that things all can be different the second time around if only...
 
cloudboy
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:15 am

I'll give this one a lot more of a chance of success than most others. They at least are identifying an under served market. There may be more people clamoring for low cost air fare, but there are an awful lot of airlines operating in that arena. Right now there are very few airlines offering a decent mid class product - all the current airlines are widening that gap between premium and budget, making a real opportunity for a lot of people who can't justify either.

In the end, Midwest died because they panicked. They got particularly bruised in the burst of the tech bubble. When the discount fad took hold the too quickly tried to turn into a LCC, but that was not their strength. A good business does not focus on fitting to the latest fad, but rather on focusing on their core strength. To that end, I think it is important in this case to watch who the leadership is - are they visonary people or just opportunists?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
TerminalD
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:30 pm

F9Animal wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
I sure hope CRJ's aren't part of the plans. That won't turn out well.


I agree. Worst possible plane to try and start an airline with. Even if they got the CRJ for free, it's still a PITA to turn a profit on.

I am all for a return of Midwest though!

Pretty sure the CRJs are the plan. I think it's risky in that if oil goes up they are wiped out, but it might work with current oil. Problem is that's a risky business plan to get investment. Plus pilots...
 
TerminalD
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:32 pm

cloudboy wrote:
I'll give this one a lot more of a chance of success than most others. They at least are identifying an under served market. There may be more people clamoring for low cost air fare, but there are an awful lot of airlines operating in that arena. Right now there are very few airlines offering a decent mid class product - all the current airlines are widening that gap between premium and budget, making a real opportunity for a lot of people who can't justify either.

In the end, Midwest died because they panicked. They got particularly bruised in the burst of the tech bubble. When the discount fad took hold the too quickly tried to turn into a LCC, but that was not their strength. A good business does not focus on fitting to the latest fad, but rather on focusing on their core strength. To that end, I think it is important in this case to watch who the leadership is - are they visonary people or just opportunists?

Aretakis started Shuttle America with two partners before he was at YX and F9. He has done it before. Of course, Shuttle's original biz plan failed.
 
khinstorff
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:39 am

If they're looking to expand beyond regional mid-size cities in the Upper Midwest, Dallas would be a great target! WN and F9 will no longer be serving the route as of next March.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:51 pm

What made the original Midwest Express successful in the early years wasn’t the premium seating and meals. If anything they succeeded more in spite of those than because of them.

All sorts of “premium service at coach fares” airlines started up in the US during the 80’s and not one (other than Midwest Express) made a buck or lasted very long. That’s because few domestic travelers value premium service enough to influence their purchase decisions. The big drivers are price, schedule, and frequent flyer loyalty (including corporate contracts), the order of importance varying from situation to situation.

What led Midwest Express to beat the odds in the early years was a tight focus on serving the needs of business travelers in markets with little or no nonstop competition. Nonstop flights at consistent business-friendly schedules didn’t allow them to broadly charge higher fares, but it did allow them to carry a traffic mix more heavily weighted with high-fare business traffic. And it allowed them to carry a higher portion of local travelers rather than needing to fill seats with lower-yield connecting traffic. Not only did Midwest remove quite a few seats from their DC9s but they generally ran a lower-than-average load factor. But the average fare and traffic mix more than covered operating costs.

The premium seating and meals helped in intangible ways, no doubt. But there was never a point where the meals and seating led to any sort of widespread breakthrough. For example I was recently looking at some early 1996 stats (the oldest available of this sort on the web). Midwest Express had been flying Milwaukee-Boston nonstop for 12 years and was the only carrier flying it nonstop at that point. Yet Midwest only had about 60% market share on MKE-BOS/BOS-MKE.

For the new Midwest Express to succeed they need to follow a similar path. They must focus tightly on business travelers in unserved/underserved markets offering nonstop flights at consistent business-friendly times, especially times which allow same-day round trip travel. The most promising niche is serving markets too small to support nonstop competition or attract low-fare carriers. Markets with adequate business travel, a segment which prizes timing and efficiency highly. We're likely talking markets in the range of 250-500 miles, and the suggestion (from the website) that they will fly RJ's fits that idea. In many such markets a fair number of their potential customers drive today, others make the hike down to O’Hare and the rest put up with a connection. Getting those people to change their habits will be tough. To have them forego the frequent flyer miles for the benefit of a well-timed nonstop flight. To show them the cost of flying a day trip is worth the saved hotel cost of a two-day road trip. To remind them of the value of their time. In that regard their biggest rivals are inertia and habit, not Southwest or Delta. But to go head-to-head in bigger markets like New York and Boston and Atlanta is simply a non-starter. They have nothing of value to offer in those markets to attract customers.

The sorts of markets where a new Midwest Express could find a sweet spot have high fares. Milwaukee-Columbus is an example. Average one-way fare in Q4 was about $232 for a mere 300 mile hop. Even though it’s only about 6.5 hours in the car and there are only connecting flights a few hundred people fly the trip every week. It used to be significantly more when it was served nonstop. By flying the market with business-friendly nonstop schedules they have the potential to grow it by reclaiming lost traffic, keeping fares relatively high, and capturing a good portion of the total market. That’s their opening.

A fairly-common rejection of proposed routes and especially proposed airlines is “if it was profitable somebody would be serving it already”. But look again at Milwaukee-Columbus, for example. Delta carries the largest share of the (connecting) traffic today and it mostly flies via Detroit. High-fare business connecting traffic helps make the Detroit hub successful. Were Delta to add MKE-CMH nonstop it would be a (small) negative to the DTW hub and it does nothing to advance the larger Delta network. Unless MKE-CMH is really going to be a money-maker why would they dedicate resources to adding MKE-CMH when it’s going to put a ding on the Detroit hub, even a very small one? Yet if someone does start MKE-CMH nonstop it’s not likely worth challenging them by Delta adding it nonstop – the hit to the DTW hub is not large enough to fight.

Getting back to the new Midwest Express I can’t stress enough the importance of doing and promoting everything reasonably possible to make short/medium hop business travel convenient. Making business travel easier with this new product and then getting that product out there in front of potential customers is absolutely essential for this to work.

Finally, a few words about the Midwest Express name. It’s something of a double-edged sword. It’s highly valuable in Milwaukee, and I think the overwhelming amount of buzz caught the new ME by surprise. When word leaked out it was on every newscast, it was on the front page (lower portion) of the local newspaper, and it was all over social media. The newspaper story alone was shared over 11,000 times on Facebook. That sort of publicity and name recognition is worth its weight in gold. But living up to a legend is nearly impossible and they simply won’t be able to match the fuzzy memories so many people seem to have of what they were. I can’t count the number of comments I’ve seen and heard that that had some variation of “They were fantastic! I flew them once to Fort Myers and I think it would be great if they came back.” So you have these high expectations based on something you think you remember loving yet never found the instance to fly again. That kind of buzz and “loyalty” does little but set high expectations and opportunities for disappointment. Midwest Express won’t fly to Fort Myers. They won’t have first-class seating for all. They won’t have the fine meals which people who never flew them in their heyday extoll today. It’s somewhat like the airline version of the legendary Ice Bowl to Wisconsinites. Most anybody suffers in comparison to a legend, frankly the legendary version of Midwest Express is of a business plan that just couldn’t work as the industry evolved in the 2000’s But if they focus on what made Midwest Express successful in the earlier years in spite of the higher costs of the premium-service business plan, I think they have a much better shot.

Obviously none of this makes a difference if they don’t get the investment and jump through the hoops successfully to get airborne in the first place. I do have growing thoughts that they may be going the “virtual” route and the plan is that this will be operated by Skywest or someone similar. Given the recent blast of EAS bids from Skywest they seem to be looking for uses for surplus CRJ’s and have the pilots to fly them. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they get to the point where we know those details of their plans.
 
2175301
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:07 pm

I agree with Knope... This is doable; but focusing on the business market from Milwaukee to selected locations. The reputation of Midwest in that market is a draw that virtually no other startup has... and it can overcome all kinds of issues... What I posted on the other (now closed) thread is that this would be CRJ's with 1-1 business seats with legroom, at business seat prices (not low cost sardine fares). I believe there is enough market to support this. I'll gladly return - and may even chose to develop my business in cities they fly to just to support them.

Have a great day,
 
FARmd90
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:32 pm

I know everyone thinks C-Series would be great start up plane for them and I'm sure it would be. But would the C-Series be a lot of plane for them range and weight wise if they are going to focus more on regional routes?

I think a E2 190/195 combo would be awesome to see for this new Midwest venture. Great regional plane but would allow them to reach all of the US from MKE also. And the 2x2 of the E2 is already amazing. They wouldn't need to mess with a 3x2 if they didn't want to. And Embraer has come up with a staggering business class seat that looks great and I think could work very well.
 
rj777
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:10 pm

"Finally, a few words about the Midwest Express name. It’s something of a double-edged sword. It’s highly valuable in Milwaukee, and I think the overwhelming amount of buzz caught the new ME by surprise. When word leaked out it was on every newscast, it was on the front page (lower portion) of the local newspaper, and it was all over social media. The newspaper story alone was shared over 11,000 times on Facebook. That sort of publicity and name recognition is worth its weight in gold."

IMHO, the fact that it got leaked and it is all over the local press is going to put more pressure on possible investors to make it happen. I'd say this has a good chance!
 
MKENut
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:16 am

FARmd90 wrote:
I know everyone thinks C-Series would be great start up plane for them and I'm sure it would be. But would the C-Series be a lot of plane for them range and weight wise if they are going to focus more on regional routes?

I think a E2 190/195 combo would be awesome to see for this new Midwest venture. Great regional plane but would allow them to reach all of the US from MKE also. And the 2x2 of the E2 is already amazing. They wouldn't need to mess with a 3x2 if they didn't want to. And Embraer has come up with a staggering business class seat that looks great and I think could work very well.


Get the airline running first with the regional jets... then think about the C-Series.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:34 pm

rj777 wrote:
IMHO, the fact that it got leaked and it is all over the local press is going to put more pressure on possible investors to make it happen. I'd say this has a good chance!


That is a good point. Although there's a definite how-do-you-live-up-to-a-legend issue of bringing back Midwest Express, the upside of name recognition and overwhelmingly positive regard probably far, far outweigh the downside. The buzz about this probably helps their financing efforts a good deal. If nothing else it may open some doors which might otherwise greet them with "Who are you and just what is this supposed to be about?"


The buzz is still going. Today has a second front-page story in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel print edition, this time top of the front pate. Currently the lead story online as well jsonline.com.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/bus ... 556010001/

Mostly today's story has more input from experts about starting an airline, what the brand name may be worth intangibly, etc. Doesn't sound like there's anything new from the two formers of the airline.
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:40 am

TerminalD wrote:
Pretty sure the CRJs are the plan.

At least they could utilize the abandoned ground-level boarding gates on the concourse D stem, which were originally renovated for YX in the first place.

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know what they're doing with the gates on the opposite side of the concourse? I flew out on DL the other week and noticed the jetways have been removed, along with the pedestals/support that were built into the ground.
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rj777
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:36 am

mke717spotter wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
Pretty sure the CRJs are the plan.

At least they could utilize the abandoned ground-level boarding gates on the concourse D stem, which were originally renovated for YX in the first place.


They could use 2 of them, because OneJet already has D27. Unless they shared that gate. Otherwise there's still a few slots left in the rest of D. I would love to see another model of a Midwest Plane hanging in Mitchell again!
 
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knope2001
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:49 am

mke717spotter wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
Pretty sure the CRJs are the plan.

At least they could utilize the abandoned ground-level boarding gates on the concourse D stem, which were originally renovated for YX in the first place.

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know what they're doing with the gates on the opposite side of the concourse? I flew out on DL the other week and noticed the jetways have been removed, along with the pedestals/support that were built into the ground.


The three old D gates on the north side of the stem (D34/36/38) are being rebuilt into two. D30 has been redone with a modern telescoping jetbridge for several years, but D34/36/38 are fairly useless because space is too tight to park some full-sized narrowbody aircraft and because the old pedestal-style fixed jet bridges (if they have not deteriorated beyond repair) limit what planes can use them. They worked for Midwest with DC9, 717 and later E70 but not M80, A319 nor ERJ (even in later years when RJ's routinely got jetways). When the project finishes the north side of D will have 3 three useful gates instead of 4, but all three should be broadly useful.

With E out of the picture MKE is nearing the point where all the useful gates are spoken for. There's a little slack on the margins such a Delta often parking at D42 even though the don't actually lease it, Southwest no longer leasing C25 but parking ground equipment on the ramp and D53 only used during charter season. And a few more gates are definitely underutilized such as Volaris. But as an airport you want to be able to offer prospective new carriers their own space. My guess is Allegiant will take D30, and this project will create useful gates next door. I think ultimately they intend to put some jetways on the south side of the D stem as well, but they may be down the road a bit when demand shows a need. And I think they intend for the international facility which will replace E can handle departures too.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:47 pm

knope2001 wrote:
What made the original Midwest Express successful in the early years wasn’t the premium seating and meals. If anything they succeeded more in spite of those than because of them.



As always, Knope, you sum it up -- and remember --very well. As a big user of YX for a long period of time, it amazes me the seashell and balloons remembrances. I loved to fly them because they were never full and had decent business schedules that worked for me. But, even back then--particularly when the 717s showed up--I knew it was never going to work. If the Milwaukee community was so loyal those 88 seat 717s would have been a lot fuller. Meanwhile, when I took DL the flights out on those 757s were packed full. That loyalty thing is at least 50-percent mythical.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:37 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
God Bless 'Em For Trying I guess.

Times have changed. To me the biggest mistake YX made was when they split the fleet into Signature seating for the 717's and Saver seating for the MD-80's. It reminded me of the Continental/Continental Lite fiasco blurring the brand. In hindsight, making both models dual class with maybe a 40/60 Signature/Saver layout would have been a more unified approach from a marketing standpoint.

Onto the new plan. They are out of luck getting into DCA or LGA now, two of their earliest and strongest markets. Will they try to be a OneJet for MKE? The CRJ is the wrong plane even in a 1x2 configuration emulating the original comfort level (hardly) the prices they would need to charge would be astronomical compared to the competition. Where are the gaps in MKE's current destinations that would justify this type of operation? My mind boggles a bit on this one.

It's a shame F9 couldn't make the dual DEN/MKE hub strategy work, and WN could if they wanted to bank the crap out of MKE to pummel any encroachment by a new start-up. That's not likely but not outside the realm of possibility.

Even if I were a betting man I wouldn't put up cash with the odds stacked against them.



Don't get me started on the disaster Republic brought to the mix. It was a disaster. The lack of a solid plan for the 2 airlines was a total joke. It was like they were making it up as they went along. I was there dying this transitional nightmare. Bedford was clearly lost. They couldn't even decide at the time if the cookie would stay or go! I remember sitting at the gate one day, looking at a 190. Painted in Midwest colors, operating a Frontier flight, operated by Republic! LOL! That whole mess could have been avoided had Bedford and his team sat down and made a plan before executing it. That venture had so much potential, and well.... It flopped something terrible. It could have been very successful.
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flyCMH
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:28 pm

knope2001 wrote:
What made the original Midwest Express successful in the early years...


Absolutely love this post. Spot on.

knope2001 wrote:
A fairly-common rejection of proposed routes and especially proposed airlines is “if it was profitable somebody would be serving it already”. But look again at Milwaukee-Columbus, for example. Delta carries the largest share of the (connecting) traffic today and it mostly flies via Detroit. High-fare business connecting traffic helps make the Detroit hub successful. Were Delta to add MKE-CMH nonstop it would be a (small) negative to the DTW hub and it does nothing to advance the larger Delta network. Unless MKE-CMH is really going to be a money-maker why would they dedicate resources to adding MKE-CMH when it’s going to put a ding on the Detroit hub, even a very small one? Yet if someone does start MKE-CMH nonstop it’s not likely worth challenging them by Delta adding it nonstop – the hit to the DTW hub is not large enough to fight.


After the full demise of YX/F9 in MKE, I really thought Delta was going to move into the market in a similar way as RDU and cherry-pick some of the higher-yielding, higher traffic routes to other DL strongholds such as CMH, OMA, IND, GRR, etc. However, as mentioned, the potential cannibalization of DTW and even MSP is likely why such an idea never actually happened. It would definitely be nice to have some of these routes from MKE back in one form or another.
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knope2001
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:56 am

TVNWZ wrote:
As a big user of YX for a long period of time, it amazes me the seashell and balloons remembrances. I loved to fly them because they were never full and had decent business schedules that worked for me. But, even back then--particularly when the 717s showed up--I knew it was never going to work. If the Milwaukee community was so loyal those 88 seat 717s would have been a lot fuller. Meanwhile, when I took DL the flights out on those 757s were packed full. That loyalty thing is at least 50-percent mythical.


That "seashell and balloons remembrances" phrase is pretty spot on for some of the memories I've heard and read in recent days.

flyCMH wrote:
After the full demise of YX/F9 in MKE, I really thought Delta was going to move into the market in a similar way as RDU and cherry-pick some of the higher-yielding, higher traffic routes to other DL strongholds such as CMH, OMA, IND, GRR, etc. However, as mentioned, the potential cannibalization of DTW and even MSP is likely why such an idea never actually happened. It would definitely be nice to have some of these routes from MKE back in one form or another.


It would have made some sense -- remember that when Frontier announced they were de-hubbing Delta worked out a deal to allow Milwaukee-area flyers to convert their Frontier miles to Delta Skymiles in hopes of getting all that Milwaukee traffic up for grabs. Not sure that's been done before or since. (And then not to be outdone Southwest simply gifted us an equal credit in their program just for showing how many Frontier miles we had.) So Delta definitely had an interest. But fuel was expensive and given Southwest's network they were in no position to challenge Delta for connecting traffic to Indianapolis, Columbus, Pittsburgh, etc. What makes Raleigh different with Delta point-to-point flights is that (a) American is a big presence and challenges on some key point-to-point markets (b) RDU area is growing pretty quickly, and (c) several of the point-to-point routes Delta serves at RDU are very out-of-the-way to serve via an ATL connection.
 
ckfred
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:38 pm

I remember hearing an airline analyst on CNBC complain that the problem with the airline industry is low barriers to entry and high barriers to exit. In other words, accumulating capital, acquiring aircraft, hiring and training employees, finding gate space, and getting the proper certifications is somewhat easy.

On the other hand, because of Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code, a carrier can continue to operate for some time after filing, before it finally shuts down operations.

I want to say that the analyst was making these comments, when UA's bankruptcy kept dragging. A lot of people felt that UA was getting too much extra time to file its plan of reorganization.

Considering that there are three giant legacy carriers, Southwest, Alaska, and JetBlue, it really shouldn't surprise anyone that there are people who think there is room for some competition. The industry is seeing very high profits, when compared to 10 years ago. I read recently that an industry that has high profits and high margins should expect to see more intense competition. That has been the case with trans-Atlantic flying, as Norwegian and WOW have continued to add flights to the U.S.

Can the people behind Midwest Express get this operation going? Who knows. I understand that since the end of the original Midwest Express/Midwest Airlines, MKE has seen air service decrease. But, are southeast Wisconsin and the northern suburbs of Chicago a big enough market to sustain a new carrier? Southwest is clearly capable of adding flights quickly.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 1865
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:29 pm

knope2001 wrote:
That "seashell and balloons remembrances" phrase is pretty spot on for some of the memories I've heard and read in recent days. .


Glad you caught that. :)
 
Dominion301
Posts: 540
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Re: Midwest Express 2017

Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:43 pm

tb727 wrote:
Hmmm, I don't know. It sounds pretty promising and the website looks legit. I'd invest in it if I didn't have all my money wrapped up in a little secret start-up I know of. I don't want to give any secrets away but they just signed a lease for a 767, looking at flying flights from the New York City area to St Petersburg.


:rotfl: Good one!

It would be great to see MidEx back in the skies. Give this project some time. A professional looking website is a start towards having credibility.

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