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MinnesotaPlanes
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Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:29 pm

Currently, DL has international service to MSP from only CDG, LHR and NRT (which is being retired). The only international airlines are KLM, Air France, and Condor and Icelandair who only serve seasonal. Should MSP get more international service from airlines like KE, LH, AM, BA, and EI?
 
UA777EWRTLV
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:35 pm

Don't Delta also do MSP-HND and MSP-AMS? Maybe with the JV, KE will start ICN-MSP one day?
 
Delta332
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:36 pm

DL has service to AMS, CDG, LHR and HND. I think they ran FCO for a short period. Iceland Air and Condor are there as well. I think there is a good chance that DL may try ICN in the future, but not in the next 2 to 3 years.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:00 pm

MSP is in a good position right now. Maybe an ICN flight might materialize after the KE/DL JV goes live but that's about it.

MSP has a nice set of TATL service from DL and a low cost option with DE and FI. An ICN flight would be the only thing that is possibly missing.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:22 pm

From my understanding, MSP is a good business city, though not like the top tier US cities. I would think it's more about Delta and whether they concentrate more of their efforts to it or not.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:43 pm

MinnesotaPlanes wrote:
Currently, DL has international service to MSP from only CDG, LHR and NRT (which is being retired). The only international airlines are KLM, Air France, and Condor and Icelandair who only serve seasonal. Should MSP get more international service from airlines like KE, LH, AM, BA, and EI?


Actually, MSP is daily year-round from KEF, and this summer has been operated almost exclusively by the 767. One of the busiest routes in FI's network.

You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.
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panamair
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:01 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.


DL flies MSP-KEF as a seasonsal summer service, but it is operated daily.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:08 pm

ICN or PVG would be nice in Asia. Europe service is pretty good right now, IMHO. Perhaps FRA on Lufthansa or LHR on BA are possible, although I'm not sure whether OneWorld or Star are strong enough here for those.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:34 pm

Funny because the opposite of this is a not so uncommon complaint in the DEN threads about UA not having much international. DEN has AC, AM, BA, CM, WK (Edelweiss), FI, LH, DY, and Y4 (Volaris), but UA doesn't have much on their own metal. Outside of Mexico and Central America, UA only has the NRT flight, and they only just added back the seasonal LHR once DY entered the market. A lot of people will cite DL at MSP or SLC as an example of a stronger world carrier in those hubs compared to UA in their hubs.

Not that I really see it that way, but it is interesting to see how different the perspectives can be based on hubs of particular operating carriers.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 CR2 CR7 CR9 Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
jrkmsp
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:37 pm

MSP service at peak (aka summer) is:

(Excluding Canada/Mexico)

Delta
MSP-AMS 3x daily
MSP-CDG 1x daily
MSP-LHR 1x daily
MSP-KEF 1x daily
MSP-HND 1x daily

Air France
MSP-CDG 1x daily

KLM
MSP-AMS 3x weekly

Icelandair
MSP-KEF 1x daily

Condor
MSP-FRA 3x weekly
 
stlgph
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:40 pm

panamair wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.


DL flies MSP-KEF as a seasonsal summer service, but it is operated daily.


They run a bit more than just summer seasonal service.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
michman
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:31 pm

stlgph wrote:
panamair wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.


DL flies MSP-KEF as a seasonsal summer service, but it is operated daily.


They run a bit more than just summer seasonal service.


It runs through Sept 4th and resumes the last week of May. That's sounds pretty summer seasonal to me. I'm not aware of any summer seasonal flights the exactly correspond to the "calendar" summer period. I think it's still fair to call them summer seasonal.
 
stlgph
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:34 pm

Well, Gina, tell me more about these flights I just had the option of booking in December.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
airzona11
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:22 pm

That is pretty good amount of INTL travel for a city the size of MSP.

Maybe ICN with the DL/KE JV.
 
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MinnesotaPlanes
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:45 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
MinnesotaPlanes wrote:
Currently, DL has international service to MSP from only CDG, LHR and NRT (which is being retired). The only international airlines are KLM, Air France, and Condor and Icelandair who only serve seasonal. Should MSP get more international service from airlines like KE, LH, AM, BA, and EI?


Actually, MSP is daily year-round from KEF, and this summer has been operated almost exclusively by the 767. One of the busiest routes in FI's network.

You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.
Sorry. Do not have all the service from MSP completely memorized just yet: forgot about it. Same with AMS DL service too. I think that MSP should have more domestic and international service because SEA, AUS, BNA, DEN and much more airports in the US have more international and domestic service (especially with BA starting service to BNA in S28) even though the MSP metro has similar or a larger population. You could argue that it is because MSP is a huge DL hub, but most of those flights are domestic, and AF, KLM, and FI compete with DL just fine on the MSP-KEF, MSP-AMS, and MSP-CDG routes just fine:
 
stlgph
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:50 pm

What you think and what the reality is are two different things.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:54 pm

I think MSP is extremely well served, the good and bad is an airline has a hub there so they are the force thats hard to compete with.

It would have far less service if it were not a hub. Maybe a few more international airlines would serve it, but less seats for sure. Its a skyteam fortress hub
 
klakzky123
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:05 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think MSP is extremely well served, the good and bad is an airline has a hub there so they are the force thats hard to compete with.

It would have far less service if it were not a hub. Maybe a few more international airlines would serve it, but less seats for sure. Its a skyteam fortress hub


MSP is in a pretty good spot for a city it size. Yes its a fortress hub but its quite competitive for an airport that is largely controlled by a single airline. MSP has a second hub carrier in Sun Country that also serves as a nice low cost option for leisure destinations. It has low cost long haul options to Europe in Condor and Icelandair and it has a pretty decent level of domestic LCC service (including Sun Country).

If you're a traveler, you have a very healthy set of options with decent fares to most leisure spots in the US, Mexico/Caribbean and Europe. I'm not sure how one could expect a better situation from a fortress hub. You're getting all of the non-stop connectivity of a hub but you common vacation destinations are competitively serviced.
 
blockski
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:30 pm

MinnesotaPlanes wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
MinnesotaPlanes wrote:
Currently, DL has international service to MSP from only CDG, LHR and NRT (which is being retired). The only international airlines are KLM, Air France, and Condor and Icelandair who only serve seasonal. Should MSP get more international service from airlines like KE, LH, AM, BA, and EI?


Actually, MSP is daily year-round from KEF, and this summer has been operated almost exclusively by the 767. One of the busiest routes in FI's network.

You also excluded KEF from your list of DL destinations, DL come here 3x weekly IIRC in summer only.
Sorry. Do not have all the service from MSP completely memorized just yet: forgot about it. Same with AMS DL service too. I think that MSP should have more domestic and international service because SEA, AUS, BNA, DEN and much more airports in the US have more international and domestic service (especially with BA starting service to BNA in S28) even though the MSP metro has similar or a larger population. You could argue that it is because MSP is a huge DL hub, but most of those flights are domestic, and AF, KLM, and FI compete with DL just fine on the MSP-KEF, MSP-AMS, and MSP-CDG routes just fine:


AF and KLM don't compete with Delta at all, they are all part of the same joint venture. For transatlantic flights, they might as well be one airline.

Which is why ICN is the most likely addition as the JV with Korean ramps up.
 
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:16 pm

MSP is more than well served, it is exceptionally well served. I agree ICN is probably gonna happen, with an outside chance of new summer Delta seasonal routes to Europe. Whatever big destinations have the highest fare during summertime. FCO was one previous guess by Delta. Maybe they will make another one. MAN, just putting that idea out there. Probably not though.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:54 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
MSP service at peak (aka summer) is:

(Excluding Canada/Mexico)

Delta
MSP-AMS 3x daily
MSP-CDG 1x daily
MSP-LHR 1x daily
MSP-KEF 1x daily
MSP-HND 1x daily


I'm not that familiar with international flights out of MSP, but it seems strange to me that Delta flies from there to only four European destinations and one of them is KEF!?? Are there not bigger fish to fry? (as in Germany/Spain/Ireland...)

Too bad another alliance doesn't set up shop in MSP.

Nice that you have a HND flight tho..

yeo
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:04 am

DL to AMS drops down to 2x W17, about the time KL changes to the 789. Haven't heard if it goes back to 3x next summer.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:06 am

MSP isn't even that big of a city. They are lucky to have the flights they do now. Much larger cities like Phoenix still have practically none.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:54 am

Varsity1 wrote:
MSP isn't even that big of a city. They are lucky to have the flights they do now. Much larger cities like Phoenix still have practically none.


However MSP has much of the state's popular in the metro area and is better located than a PHX...
 
klakzky123
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:02 am

Varsity1 wrote:
MSP isn't even that big of a city. They are lucky to have the flights they do now. Much larger cities like Phoenix still have practically none.


PHX has some really unfortunate geography. It makes it much harder to launch TATL flights. Also, MSP isn't THAT small. It's getting close to 4 million in the metro area.

The big thing MSP has is that it is shockingly wealthy. The metro as as whole is top 5 in per capita income in the US and is in the top 10 in household income. All of this with much lower cost of living compared to all other cities ahead of it in those categories. Plus, the corporate presence is quite large. MSP also has 17 fortune 500 headquarters plus others like Medtronic, Boston Scientific and Wells Fargo that don't count because ownership is technically elsewhere. Additionally, MSP is one of the few metros with the state government and the state's flagship university. And if you add in the Rochester metro (which is even wealthier) then you end up with a very strong set of demographics to support air travel. MSP is quite profitable for Delta and the economy in the region will easily support that going forward.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:04 am

yeogeo wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
MSP service at peak (aka summer) is:

(Excluding Canada/Mexico)

Delta
MSP-AMS 3x daily
MSP-CDG 1x daily
MSP-LHR 1x daily
MSP-KEF 1x daily
MSP-HND 1x daily


I'm not that familiar with international flights out of MSP, but it seems strange to me that Delta flies from there to only four European destinations and one of them is KEF!?? Are there not bigger fish to fry? (as in Germany/Spain/Ireland...)

Too bad another alliance doesn't set up shop in MSP.

Nice that you have a HND flight tho..

yeo


KEF is a retaliation route. Icelandair has been flying from MSP since the 90s but recently they went year around so DL finally decided to try and cut them down.. Not sure if it has actually worked. I suspect both DL and FI are doing quite well so no one is going to budge. I think as long as Iceland tourism is popular both flights will do just fine. Also people in MSP tend to fly south for vacations so seasonal flights like Barcelona will probably fail. MSP has pretty incredible coverage to Mexico and the Caribbean (between SY and DL).
 
klm617
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:19 am

lavalampluva wrote:
DL to AMS drops down to 2x W17, about the time KL changes to the 789. Haven't heard if it goes back to 3x next summer.


It has always been 2X in the winter but this year there is a capacity increase from 14 yo 17 weekly.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:25 am

MSP is one of the first losers when it comes to international service. There's a fair amount of capacity thanks to a hub and geography, but it's not designed for the local market (does a MSP traveler need 3-4x AMS? No.). The TATL traffic is almost all towards a hub for connections onward. Competition is minimal (except the war for KEF), destinations are limited, and fares are expensive. As a local market, MSP isn't well-served internationally considering the geography, existence of a hub, economy, and size. That distinction goes to cities such as SEA and now DEN.

-it's one the largest cities without BA service
-it's one of the largest cities without FRA service...
...which means it's one the largest cities without LH service
-it's one the largest cities without Asian service that can connect onward (very little local traffic is on MSP-HND)
-it's one of the largest cities without a foreign flag carrier that competes with the hub carrier

It would be the largest city in some of them if not for PHX and its geographically and economically challenged position. It's the first loser in many areas.
 
F27500
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:25 am

No. WHY? ... Why does Minneapolis need any more than what DL gives them ?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:44 am

DL screws all hubs not named ATL...its an a.net FACT. (sarcasm)

MSP fanboys get butthurt at DTW
MSP fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at MSP
CVG fanboys get butthurt at DTW
SLC fanboys get butthurt at SEA
...QED.
Last edited by PSU.DTW.SCE on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:45 am

Indeed! They should be happy with the quiche crusts that Delta serves them.
Not a fan of competition, eh, F27500?

yeo
One great use of words is to hide our thoughts. Voltaire
 
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MinnesotaPlanes
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:57 am

[code][/code]
airzona11 wrote:
That is pretty good amount of INTL travel for a city the size of MSP.

Maybe ICN with the DL/KE JV.
City the size of MSP? The MSP metro is in the top 20 in the US. And when you look at the airports of areas that are similar to MSP in size (TPA,SEA,SAN,DTW), that have more or what I asked for: more international and domestic service.
 
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MinnesotaPlanes
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:59 am

Varsity1 wrote:
MSP isn't even that big of a city. They are lucky to have the flights they do now. Much larger cities like Phoenix still have practically none.
*sigh*
 
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MinnesotaPlanes
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:16 am

[url][/url]I can agree with the statement that MSP is in the same situation that PHX is in. MSP is too close to ORD, and PHX is too close to LAX, and that is why big international flag-carriers are ignoring them. It woiuld be much more convinient to the citizens of those metropolitan areas to have direct flights. I should not have to go through the hassle of boarding a 45 minute flight to ORD, then trying to connect to my flight on, let's say ANA. This is what the 787 and A350 are making possible, easier flights for the consumer, and the airline. See this video to find out what i am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlIdzF1_b5M,%20st Start at 6:00
 
TW870
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:20 am

MSPNWA wrote:
MSP is one of the first losers when it comes to international service.


I'm curious what you or others think the alternative is. Do you want a weaker fortress hub or a stronger one? Obviously yes, without the fortress hub, Minneapolis would get British Airways and Lufthansa service to LHR and FRA respectively, and perhaps one Asian carrier such as a JL 788 to NRT. But for that to be possible, there would not be able to be a Skyteam fortress, because those international carriers would need a larger slice of local business markets than they can get with Skyteam here.

Is it that you want Delta to serve Madrid or Rome or Munich or all of them non-stop? But to do that you would need an even stronger fortress hub that could draw west coast connecting traffic away from JFK and DTW and other strong Skyteam hubs. Or is it that you want Delta to go away to allow others to step in? But if that were the case, then who do you think would or should serve routes such as MSP-GEG or FWA or ROC that would be very, very difficult to serve without the economies of a fortress hub? It would sure be cool to see an LH 346 at MSP, but I commute for work to DAY from MSP, and BA and LH and JL wouldn't be of any use to me because most of my work travel - and that of most other people in Minneapolis - is within the U.S.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:29 am

I think people don't realize the city proper of Minneapolis is just a small fraction of the entire metro area. Look up Minneapolis and it is small population wise. But it is one of two downtown areas within the CSA that has a population of 3.9 million.
 
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qwerty2002
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:30 am

I think people don't realize the city proper of Minneapolis is just a small fraction of the entire metro area. I agree with you.
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klakzky123
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:30 am

Some of you are crazy. MSP has a 2nd hub carrier (Sun Country) that offers a fantastic selection of destinations and has a competitive product. Even on the TATL front, MSP has two LCC options. MSP's traffic is entirely one direction (US point of sale). You can't compare MSP to a city in Florida or San Diego. Those are tourism destinations. They get foreign point of sale travelers that create incentives foreign flagged carriers to serve those airports. As for DTW, they have the auto industry. MSP doesn't have an industry that comes close to that type of connection with Asia. DTW clearly deserves its selection of TPAC flights.

MSP is doing just fine and has a great selection of flights at reasonable prices (for a fortress hub). An ICN flight has a good chance of happening in the next 2 years as well and with that MSP will have better connectivity with Asia than ever.
 
airzona11
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:37 am

MinnesotaPlanes wrote:
[code][/code]
airzona11 wrote:
That is pretty good amount of INTL travel for a city the size of MSP.

Maybe ICN with the DL/KE JV.
City the size of MSP? The MSP metro is in the top 20 in the US. And when you look at the airports of areas that are similar to MSP in size (TPA,SEA,SAN,DTW), that have more or what I asked for: more international and domestic service.


If you look at TransPac/Atlantic flights per million people I bet MSP does quite well. Look at PHX, larger MSA and only 1 single daily flight to LHR. So if size is your metric, MSP is going very well. And better than SAN and TPA. SEA geographically is going to get way for Asia.

MSP has just shy of what, 10 TransAtlantics/Pac flights a day?I am curious where else there is demand or what more there could be? It is a very well run hub by Delta. There is service from Delta partners. As I mentioned, maybe ICN is a gap.

But what others? On Delta you can not back track and get to anywhere in Europe you want to go 1stop going east, same for pacific rim going west. Star Alliance and OneWorld airlines are going to connect at any one of a number of "on the way" airports 1stop, MSP is a SkyTeam fortress hub, any Euro / India/ME destination is can connect more than 3 times daily in AMS. Maybe if the Condor flight works out, LH might swoop and serve via FRA.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:54 am

It would be nice to, really. But its quite clear that no legacy would do it (too much risk for minimal perceived reward), other than the likes of Norwegian if they don't crash and burn (financially speaking, of course) first.

Its all about the fares. Flying from MSP , while fairly well served by DL (ICN aside, that is desperately needed for proper TPAC), is rather expensive. DL knows how to make money, I will give them that, and they wring the maximum from MSP.

There is room for someone other than DL to make money at MSP if they are willing to take a risk and undercut DL at TATL with some kind of connectivity - Dublin, Gatwick, Frankfurt , Munich - these seems like reasonable destinations for someone who can run long and skinny. Yes, Iceland Air has been doing a nice job in MSP for a long time, but that's not quite the same. Condor is pretty inconsequential.

MSP isn't underserved route-wise, its overpriced. Eventually some bold carrier will come along who is not afraid of the big bad Delta wolf. When they do, they will make money.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:03 am

TW870 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
MSP is one of the first losers when it comes to international service.


I'm curious what you or others think the alternative is. Do you want a weaker fortress hub or a stronger one? Obviously yes, without the fortress hub, Minneapolis would get British Airways and Lufthansa service to LHR and FRA respectively, and perhaps one Asian carrier such as a JL 788 to NRT. But for that to be possible, there would not be able to be a Skyteam fortress, because those international carriers would need a larger slice of local business markets than they can get with Skyteam here.

Is it that you want Delta to serve Madrid or Rome or Munich or all of them non-stop? But to do that you would need an even stronger fortress hub that could draw west coast connecting traffic away from JFK and DTW and other strong Skyteam hubs. Or is it that you want Delta to go away to allow others to step in? But if that were the case, then who do you think would or should serve routes such as MSP-GEG or FWA or ROC that would be very, very difficult to serve without the economies of a fortress hub? It would sure be cool to see an LH 346 at MSP, but I commute for work to DAY from MSP, and BA and LH and JL wouldn't be of any use to me because most of my work travel - and that of most other people in Minneapolis - is within the U.S.


I get the strong hub argument. Delta's city fact sheet shows 439 peak-day departures to 129 destinations. That is very, very good for a metro of MSP's size and far Upper Midwest location. It becomes a question of what is valued more: more non-stop destinations (convenience, business efficiency), or more carrier (price!) competition. Sorry, but MSP isn't LAX or NYC: it will not get both.

As for not getting Delta love, it's an argument that ignores some established facts: MSP wasn't a big TATL origin back in the late NW days ('07-'08) either. IIRC, neither London nor Paris were daily year-round. After the failure of NW's TATL low density 757 experiment (DUS, BRU, a 2nd FRA) the entirety of the NW TATL network was AMS, LON, CDG, FRA and seasonal Rome.

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/northwest-cuts-flights
 
klm617
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:09 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL screws all hubs not named ATL...its an a.net FACT. (sarcasm)

MSP fanboys get butthurt at DTW
MSP fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at MSP
CVG fanboys get butthurt at DTW
SLC fanboys get butthurt at SEA
...QED.


It's a real fact Delta does screw every hub in the system except for ATL. Delta has not grown any of the other hubs in the system it has reduced them all in favor of forcing connections through ATL when the traffic could be more evenly flowed over the entire network. I myself would have rather had Delta chose to keep CVG over DTW at least there would be airlines more committed in growing this market and DTW is just to big an airport not to have an airline hub her or focus city. Perhaps we would have been better of with a larger Spirit or Southwest foot print rather than an airline that doesn't allow any competition in this market and a WCAA that turns a blind eye to this. At least MSP has Sun Country that constantly works at giving the city better options for air travel but in Detroit that's not the case. For the most part it's Delta or nothing and for the better part of a decade now it's been nothing. Since Delta dehubbed CVG It's much better off it it is a cargo hub for two major operations and there are an endless amount of LCC carriers adding flights there. Even when CVG was a major hub for Delta there it was bigger at one point than Detroit ever has been. So please Delta take you 375 over priced flights and move them back to CVG so this market can get some real customer choice and customer friendly airlines service and be vested here instead of just monopolization this market so you can milk it's customers for every dollar you can and cooperate fanboys defend all this BS
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:14 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
MSP is one of the first losers when it comes to international service. There's a fair amount of capacity thanks to a hub and geography, but it's not designed for the local market (does a MSP traveler need 3-4x AMS? No.). The TATL traffic is almost all towards a hub for connections onward. Competition is minimal (except the war for KEF), destinations are limited, and fares are expensive. As a local market, MSP isn't well-served internationally considering the geography, existence of a hub, economy, and size. That distinction goes to cities such as SEA and now DEN.

-it's one the largest cities without BA service
-it's one of the largest cities without FRA service...
...which means it's one the largest cities without LH service
-it's one the largest cities without Asian service that can connect onward (very little local traffic is on MSP-HND)
-it's one of the largest cities without a foreign flag carrier that competes with the hub carrier

It would be the largest city in some of them if not for PHX and its geographically and economically challenged position. It's the first loser in many areas.


While I agree with most of this post MSP does have FI and DE to compete against DL and MSP does have FRA service.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
SteveXC500
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:36 pm

MSP actually has improved in the number of competitive routes, especially since NK and WN have arrived. It probably takes time. Also, look at AA growing some of its footprint here (albeit losing LAX soon). Those, along with SY, have created much better competition than we ever saw during the NW days.
If in 5 years, the landscape hasn't changed significantly at MSP, I will be surprised. DL's share of passengers has slipped, but overall passenger numbers are going up; they are simply finding their way to other carriers more often.
 
User avatar
MinnesotaPlanes
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:58 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL screws all hubs not named ATL...its an a.net FACT. (sarcasm)

MSP fanboys get butthurt at DTW
MSP fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at ATL
DTW fanboys get butthurt at MSP
CVG fanboys get butthurt at DTW
SLC fanboys get butthurt at SEA
...QED.


It's a real fact Delta does screw every hub in the system except for ATL. Delta has not grown any of the other hubs in the system it has reduced them all in favor of forcing connections through ATL when the traffic could be more evenly flowed over the entire network. I myself would have rather had Delta chose to keep CVG over DTW at least there would be airlines more committed in growing this market and DTW is just to big an airport not to have an airline hub her or focus city. Perhaps we would have been better of with a larger Spirit or Southwest foot print rather than an airline that doesn't allow any competition in this market and a WCAA that turns a blind eye to this. At least MSP has Sun Country that constantly works at giving the city better options for air travel but in Detroit that's not the case. For the most part it's Delta or nothing and for the better part of a decade now it's been nothing. Since Delta dehubbed CVG It's much better off it it is a cargo hub for two major operations and there are an endless amount of LCC carriers adding flights there. Even when CVG was a major hub for Delta there it was bigger at one point than Detroit ever has been. So please Delta take you 375 over priced flights and move them back to CVG so this market can get some real customer choice and customer friendly airlines service and be vested here instead of just monopolization this market so you can milk it's customers for every dollar you can and cooperate fanboys defend all this BS
Delta should not leave MSP, and I mean NOT. The MSP metro loves Delta and is much more deserving of a hub than CVG. As for me, I had not flown on an airline besides Delta until I was 9. And most of my flights are DL to this day. I was never calling for DL to move out of MSP, I just think that we deserve more Intl. service. Many other citys around the US have hubs and good TATL and TPAC service. Also, please stop with the 'City or Metro the size of MSP' business. We are bigger than you think. Plus we have the populations of Duluth, Rochester, and Souix Falls who connect to us for more domestic and international service.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 639
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:01 pm

DL could transfer all international flights from DTW to MSP. I'm kidding! :lol:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
User avatar
MinnesotaPlanes
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:07 pm

Maybe since MSP is a Skyteam fortress we can get flights to MEX, ICN, and PEK through AM, KE, and MU respectively. Maybe since the Virgin family might join skyteam soon we can see service from Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America
 
Flighty
Posts: 8757
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:33 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
MSP isn't even that big of a city. They are lucky to have the flights they do now. Much larger cities like Phoenix still have practically none.


PHX has some really unfortunate geography. It makes it much harder to launch TATL flights. Also, MSP isn't THAT small. It's getting close to 4 million in the metro area.

The big thing MSP has is that it is shockingly wealthy. The metro as as whole is top 5 in per capita income in the US and is in the top 10 in household income. All of this with much lower cost of living compared to all other cities ahead of it in those categories. Plus, the corporate presence is quite large. MSP also has 17 fortune 500 headquarters plus others like Medtronic, Boston Scientific and Wells Fargo that don't count because ownership is technically elsewhere. Additionally, MSP is one of the few metros with the state government and the state's flagship university. And if you add in the Rochester metro (which is even wealthier) then you end up with a very strong set of demographics to support air travel. MSP is quite profitable for Delta and the economy in the region will easily support that going forward.


Part of MSP's thing is it is really has the catchment area of Minnesota, western half of Wisconsin, and the eastern half of the Dakotas, and northern Iowa. In total it is an area of 7-8 million people and far greater than the US average disposable income AFAIK. Check out North Dakota or Iowa incomes. It is a stable and quietly prosperous region, if not as wealthy as the Bay Area. The most similar peer cities I think may be either SEA or DEN. It is a regional hub like DEN, but with some of the corporate wealth of SEA. But cheaper housing than either.
 
simpv
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:14 pm

I guess I'm always suspicious of statements that say an airport "should" have something. This is one area where I think market forces tell us a lot--airlines are more or less smart in route planning, and take calculated risks when starting new markets. I'm sure LH and JL have looked into MSP, but have decided that, for one reason or another, it is not the best use of limited resources. So "should" MSP have more TATL or TPAC service? Probably not, unless there's reason to believe that the current situation is somehow different. I do think the JV with KE will open up a route to ICN in the short to medium term, as it will allow them to funnel lots of traffic via a centralized airport. MU has little international presence at PEK, so if anything MSP could see a route to PVG, but probably not until a JV materializes with MU. As far as Europe, AF/KL have a stranglehold on connecting flights, so I would assume it's unlikely.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Should MSP get more TATL and TPAC service from international airlines?

Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:05 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Some of you are crazy. MSP has a 2nd hub carrier (Sun Country) that offers a fantastic selection of destinations and has a competitive product. Even on the TATL front, MSP has two LCC options. MSP's traffic is entirely one direction (US point of sale). You can't compare MSP to a city in Florida or San Diego. Those are tourism destinations. They get foreign point of sale travelers that create incentives foreign flagged carriers to serve those airports. As for DTW, they have the auto industry. MSP doesn't have an industry that comes close to that type of connection with Asia. DTW clearly deserves its selection of TPAC flights.

MSP is doing just fine and has a great selection of flights at reasonable prices (for a fortress hub). An ICN flight has a good chance of happening in the next 2 years as well and with that MSP will have better connectivity with Asia than ever.


I was just going to write the same thing about MSP. Minneapolis/St. Paul and the surrounding area is simply not a draw for international tourists due to a lack of attractions, severe winter climate and its geographical location. As you mentioned the lack of an international tourist market means that foreign flagged carriers have no reason to serve MSP. Even here in the United States I have yet to meet one person who would go to MSP for a vacation.

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