bob75013
Topic Author
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:43 pm

for not doing more to help delayed passengers

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... olumn.html

Having had two experiences simiiar to his this year, I tend to agree with him
 
stlgph
Posts: 9418
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:48 pm

Just wait until he tries to get on the D train.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ty97
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:57 pm

bob75013 wrote:
for not doing more to help delayed passengers

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... olumn.html

Having had two experiences simiiar to his this year, I tend to agree with him


At the risk of being being branded an airline defender (I criticize airlines often for the record) I'm not entirely sure what the author expected AA to do here. The plane was diverted due to storms (we've had lots of them lately in NYC). AA couldn't just ignore ATC and fly through the storm. Once on the ground in ACY, the flight was at the mercy of ATC clearing them to take off again. Did the flight deck update the passengers with all estimates they were receiving from ATC? If yes, nothing to improve. If no, that's a potential improvement area, but a minor one. They still would have been stuck on the diverted plane just as long.

The author has a valid gripe, but he's griping at the wrong party. The antiquated ATC combined with crowded NYC airspace caused this.
 
drgmobile
Posts: 843
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:56 pm

Yeah, I am not sure I understand what the author expected. Weather is outside of the company's control and there would have been thousands of aircraft affected by the weather, including I imagine dozens if not hundreds of American Airlines flights. All of those flights would have airline staff busy reaccomodating passengers, etc..., no?

The author writes, "Then there's the unexpected expense that passengers are legally bearing because of the delay. Yes, American doesn't have to pay, but this is an example of how the commercial aviation industry's travel agreement is skewed to favor airlines and not customers. It's another reason why we need a strong federal airline passenger bill of rights."

So how should this work? Airlines SHOULD have to pay compensation to passengers each time weather disrupts the aviation system? USA Today reported last week that 6,000 flights were delayed by the storm. That's 500,000 - 750,000 passengers impacted? If only half of those were delayed an extended period of time and each passenger was compensated just $200 each, that's still as much as $50-$75 million from one storm. Is that what an "Airline Passengers Bill of Rights" really be aiming for?

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the passengers were allowed off in Atlantic City for a few hours -- that's not always a given, as a couple of >4 hour ground stops I've experienced or heard of recently have involved passengers trapped on the plane. I am not suggesting there aren't a lot of improvements that could be made for when operations go sideways -- including for whether -- but there are also a lot of unrealistic expectations out there.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:03 pm

Are we so removed from the horse and buggy era that we've forgotten it used to take days, weeks or even months (for trans-cons) to make the trips we now take for granted?

My most consistent blame for the airlines is that the industry has failed to explain how airline operations are conducted and just how many things have to go well for a flight to operate on-time. That is, it takes just one thing (weather, ATC, etc.) to delay a flight.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1783
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:23 pm

Ah another journalist who knows nothing about WX/ATC. It's always the airline's fault.

I would agree with him that the ground communication at ACY from AA was terrible and that's why offline diversions should always be a last resort. I'm sure AA wouldn't have done an offline diversion if they had somewhere else to send them.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
AADFWFlyer
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:35 pm

Yea, I agree with the vast majority of these postings from my fellow A-Netters - the author is a person that does not fly much, and for some reason (as seemingly many other minimal flying passengers) thinks that airlines - whether AA, DL, UA, WN, F9, list goes on - somehow has control of the weather. The Chicago Tribune needed some space filled, and filled it with an uninformed author and further uninformed and unrealistic article....Yes, maybe ACY ground communications could have been better - but sure this was only one flight of many that day that AA was dealing with, multiplied with ATC and the other airlines dealing with the same. Improvements can be made, sure - but a Passenger Bill of Rights is not the overriding and complete answer - passengers need to understand their fine print when they buy tickets, and also be reasonable when it comes to weather and other unforeseen delays. Would the author rather have the flight doing donuts in the sky, or landing safely somewhere with feet on ground? It is quite unfair to single out AA, or any other airline in particular on this one - as weather affects all of them, and the contingencies that they have in place to alternate airports due to unforeseen circumstances are already in the cockpit crew's mind, before they depart to their destination. This article IMO, got a lot of people wrapped around the axle for something that they don't fully understand or comprehend.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 920
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:41 pm

What's bizarre is he both says that AA can't do anything about the weather and chastizes them for not doing something about the weather. Weird guy.

I wonder why AA landed at AC instead of Philly, where at least they'd ahve more options for alternate travel and additional crew? Philly was probably dealing with congestion too, but I'm curious.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
bob75013
Topic Author
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:49 pm

bob75013 wrote:
for not doing more to help delayed passengers

Having had two experiences simiiar to his this year, I tend to agree with him


I tend to agree with what many of you said about WX delays, but lack of communications from the airline to the pax is, IMO, pretty unaccepable. I have two examples in just the last week (and I fly A LOT - over 2 million miles in my life and 35 flights this year).

Last Friday I flew WN DEN/DAL. The flight pushed the gate an hour and a half late (no explanation) then stopped on the apron for another hour and a half -- without one word of explanation from the pilot.

Two days ago I flew WN DAL/MDW. The flight attendents showed up 45 minutes late (no explanation). We pushed the gate and sat on the apron for another 45 minutes - with no explanation.

Nothing infuriates me more than lack of communication from the flight crew. These are two of my recent examples. I believe this was the Tribune writer's main bitch, and I agree with him.
 
commavia
Posts: 11189
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:56 pm

Like so many other unrealistic and uninformed complaints about the airline industry, the "solution" to this "problem" is extremely simple. PAY MORE. Period.

Passengers want to be compensated when flights are delayed, cancelled or diverted due to weather? Sure, the airlines can do that. Passengers want the airline to prearrange and preposition support at "every significant airport" where that airline might divert a flight? Sure, airlines can do that. Or let's go one step further. Passengers want airlines to simply stop flying as much to airports, like LGA, that are the most in-demand and where more people want to go, at more times of the day, so that when weather occurs the airports recover faster? Sure, airlines can do that, too. How about legroom? Passengers want airlines to be required to add room between seats, despite the fact that federal air safety professionals have already certified that such configurations are safe and conform with emergency egress standards? Sure, airlines can certainly do that.

All of this can very easily be regulated by legislators - as is their prerogative. And the ultimate net result of all of it will be less competition, and higher fares. Because every single one of these things that certain people are allegedly clamoring for in some "Passengers Bill of Rights" cost money. And someone - passengers, employees or shareholders - has to pay that money. Airlines aren't making exorbitant profit margins as it is, so it's hard to imagine shareholders or employees ever again shouldering the burden of all of this regulation, at least to the same extent that they did for the decade following 9/11 (when shareholders and employees essentially shouldered all of the burden of massive capital destruction). So that leaves one bill payer - and that's travelers.
 
PI4EVER
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:24 pm

I flew WN on a flight TPA-PHL that diverted to ORF due to thunderstorms in PHL that closed the airport.
I had left Tampa at 2pm in the afternoon. I arrived PHL safely at 11PM.
ORF is a WN station and overall the crew and ground staff handled the situation very well. We even switched aircraft in ORF.
We were not offered compensation, food or beverage. The bar and restaurant areas in ORF closed with no options to eat or drink'
except a small kiosk that sold chips, packaged sandwiches and soft drinks and bottle of water.
To complicate matters I was traveling with a cabin pet but was provided additional passes to re-enter security after I took the
pup out of the terminal so he could find some grass to relieve himself. He was the trooper. Not a peep out of him and he played with kids on the flight that thought it cool a dog was on their flight. "A dog can fly?"
At the end of the day we landed in PHL safely (6+ hours late) and all I craved was a cold beer and a cheeseburger. I got it at 1230am!
And the pup got a bite of cheeseburger too.......
Calm down. You-know-what happens sometimes, And frankly, I don't want to hurl around in a severe thunderstorm trying to land in PHL.
P.S. I am in PHL. The storms that affected the NYC area pounded the PHL area as well. The flight likely could not divert to PHL with all its own problems that day.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
atl100million
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:32 pm

At the very least, the writer DOES have a valid criticism of airlines diverting to airports where they do not have the staff to provide the level of service they could at other airports.

The article does say that some passengers bailed from the flight - apparently they did not have checked luggage or were willing to be parted from it.

Unlike a mechanical or medical that forces diversion to the closest airport, airlines do control where they divert their aircraft in weather situations. Much of the writer's justified frustration was the lack of information and support at a non-AA staffed airport.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:40 pm

atl100million wrote:
At the very least, the writer DOES have a valid criticism of airlines diverting to airports where they do not have the staff to provide the level of service they could at other airports.

The article does say that some passengers bailed from the flight - apparently they did not have checked luggage or were willing to be parted from it.

Unlike a mechanical or medical that forces diversion to the closest airport, airlines do control where they divert their aircraft in weather situations. Much of the writer's justified frustration was the lack of information and support at a non-AA staffed airport.


If AA could have diverted to an on-line station they would have. On-line Airports do not have unlimited resources and ramp space so sometimes off-line diversions must occur.
 
atl100million
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:53 pm

Where they divert their flights in weather situations is almost always an airline decision. Diverting a flight to a non-staffed station can't possibly yield a worse result than to a staffed station that may have been temporarily stretched.

And there have been many diversions back to the origin station by multiple airlines this summer.

AA might have bargained that it would divert to ACY because it was close enough to NYC that they could get people there by ground if the flight cancelled but they also took a risk at stopping at a non-staffed station.

The decision was theirs and a good deal of what the reporter had to say about the incident was directly about the lack of information and support - which is a direct result of where they diverted. ATC and the FAA don't make those decisions. Airlines do.
 
ty97
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:06 pm

atl100million wrote:
At the very least, the writer DOES have a valid criticism of airlines diverting to airports where they do not have the staff to provide the level of service they could at other airports.


I don't know much about diversion decisions (so consider this mainly a question to educate me) but how do airlines make the decision and how much control do they have?

I do not know what day this diversion happened, but there was an ugly storm day recently where storms were all over the northeast and LGA had 6 hour delays. I presume AA would have preferred PHL over ACY, but perhaps PHL was not available due to storms? I can't imagine AA chose to diver to ACY if there were better options.

Anyway, mostly just curious to understand diversion decision logic better.
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2660
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:33 pm

The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
commavia
Posts: 11189
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:52 pm

mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


I understand that point, and of course I have been on the receiving end of lack of information just like virtually anyone else who has ever flown. But at the same time, the truth is that sometimes there just isn't any more information to give. Plus, situations like these are exceptionally dynamic and things can change constantly, so the people actually working to get something to happen aren't necessarily always free to stop and explain.

I think a lot of this stems from the (equally understandable) attitude that many passengers have related to lack of control. I really think a lot of the disconnect between passengers and airlines is just that people do not like feeling out of control, and the inescapable reality is that when it comes to commercial air travel, passengers are not in control of virtually anything - their schedule, their safety, their service, etc. - and simply have to find a way to deal with that.
Last edited by commavia on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3690
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:00 pm

commavia wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


I think a lot of this stems from the (equally understandable) attitude that many passengers have related to lack of control. I really think a lot of the disconnect between passengers and airlines is just that people do not like feeling out of control, and the inescapable reality is that when it comes to commercial air travel, passengers are not in control of virtually anything - their schedule, their safety, their service, etc. - and simply have to find a way to deal with that.


I think you bring up a great point: People get stressed when 'personal control' evaporates once you enter an airline terminal (never mind the plane itself). You enter an airport and it's as though 'Authorities' have basically taken hold of you.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4889
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:27 pm

Things happen in terms of weather, and no one can effectively deal with them 100% of the time. I was flying MCO-ORD on AA. The inbound flight had to break off the approach at 9000 feet, because a line of thunderstorms hit MCO. (The inbound AA flight from DFW broke off its approach at 3000 feet. I was using FlightAware.com.)

Here was the problem. The plane diverted to JAX. Major mistake, since the storm fronts extended from MCO to JAX. So, if the weather cleared in MCO, JAX was getting pounded. When the weather cleared at JAX, MCO was getting pounded.

That went on for 4 hours. Our 3:15 departure became a 7:15 departure. If the plane had diverted to TPA, we probably would have been off the gate before 5:30 if not earlier, because it never rained in Tampa.

Of course, the author could have had a situation like the West Jet flight trying to get out ahead of the storm. The flight boarded about 10 minutes early, because they wanted to push back the plane before the weather closed the ramp. One passenger kept ignoring pages. She finally showed up and boarded. Just as the jet bridge was retracting, flash and boom. The ground crew ran for cover inside, and the plane sat at the gate for about 45 minutes.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4889
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:41 pm

commavia wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


I understand that point, and of course I have been on the receiving end of lack of information just like virtually anyone else who has ever flown. But at the same time, the truth is that sometimes there just isn't any more information to give. Plus, situations like these are exceptionally dynamic and things can change constantly, so the people actually working to get something to happen aren't necessarily always free to stop and explain.

I think a lot of this stems from the (equally understandable) attitude that many passengers have related to lack of control. I really think a lot of the disconnect between passengers and airlines is just that people do not like feeling out of control, and the inescapable reality is that when it comes to commercial air travel, passengers are not in control of virtually anything - their schedule, their safety, their service, etc. - and simply have to find a way to deal with that.


You're quite right about situations being very fluid. I was flying ATL-ORD on AA. The inbound flight was an hour late, because of bad weather at ORD. The gate agents repeatedly announced that once the plane was pushed back, it was going to sit in the penalty box for 2 hours. Passengers should load up on food, reading material, etc.

So, the plane boarded, pushed back, and taxied to the hold pad near 10R. The captain promptly shut down the engines,

About 5 minutes later, the captain came on the PA. "Folks. this is way we like to get off the gate. ATC says that there is a slot for us, if we can get airborne within the next few minutes, so we're leaving. Flight attendants, prepare for take-off."

About 2 minutes later, we were on 10R and rolling. Because of a strong storm coming north from Florida, we had favorable winds that allowed us to make up about 30 minutes of the delay.
 
blockski
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:14 pm

mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


It's totally reasonable in the abstract. But the information the passengers want is "when will we get there?" or "how long will we be delayed?" And the honest answer would likely be "we don't know."

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly how the airline was characterizing the situation, but just because the passengers are in the dark doesn't mean the airline is withholding information - they just might not know.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:22 pm

blockski wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


It's totally reasonable in the abstract. But the information the passengers want is "when will we get there?" or "how long will we be delayed?" And the honest answer would likely be "we don't know."

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly how the airline was characterizing the situation, but just because the passengers are in the dark doesn't mean the airline is withholding information - they just might not know.


This. I have been on flights when the flight crew actually knew that they were stuck for quite some time, but withheld the information because they felt that by acting like they did not know the passengers would not become excited or angry. I have also come to expect that when they say "buses are on the way to take you to your designation" they are lying. You are just SOL and nobody wants to be the person to tell you that.
 
kiowa
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:25 pm

bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
for not doing more to help delayed passengers

Having had two experiences simiiar to his this year, I tend to agree with him


I tend to agree with what many of you said about WX delays, but lack of communications from the airline to the pax is, IMO, pretty unaccepable. I have two examples in just the last week (and I fly A LOT - over 2 million miles in my life and 35 flights this year).

Last Friday I flew WN DEN/DAL. The flight pushed the gate an hour and a half late (no explanation) then stopped on the apron for another hour and a half -- without one word of explanation from the pilot.

Two days ago I flew WN DAL/MDW. The flight attendents showed up 45 minutes late (no explanation). We pushed the gate and sat on the apron for another 45 minutes - with no explanation.

Nothing infuriates me more than lack of communication from the flight crew. These are two of my recent examples. I believe this was the Tribune writer's main bitch, and I agree with him.


+1

The only thing worse than no information about the delay is being lied to about the delay. Actually, there are worse things in aviation but these are quite frustrating because they are avoidable.
 
atl100million
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:26 pm

blockski wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


It's totally reasonable in the abstract. But the information the passengers want is "when will we get there?" or "how long will we be delayed?" And the honest answer would likely be "we don't know."

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly how the airline was characterizing the situation, but just because the passengers are in the dark doesn't mean the airline is withholding information - they just might not know.


The article specifically says the passenger had questions about alternate ground transportation and baggage. Those answers are not related to the ATC system.

Answering those questions does not even require that the flight have been diverted to an AA staffed station.

AA personnel in Ft. Worth could have decided whether they would order buses and if so after what point. They could have made a decision whether bags would be delivered to the passengers if the passengers decided to leave. They could have decided if any type of refund would have been offered or if any amenity costs would have been absorbed by AA whether the flight ultimately operated or not.

They could have communicated all of that information to the crew who could have communicated it to the passengers.

The passengers justifiably felt trapped in a situation where they couldn't make a decision because AA didn't give them enough information. If the crew wouldn't act even if they were empowered to do so, AA should be called out.

Of course there are worse situations but diversions are not uncommon in the summer and especially going into NYC Every carrier that operates into the NE should have policies and procedures to deal with the possibility and be willing o make the situations specific to the situation when a diversion takes place.

The author/passenger complained because most of those decisions weren't made or if they were made weren't communicated to the passengers.

Will life go on? Of course. Did AA or any airline need or want the negative press. Of course not.
Last edited by atl100million on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bob75013
Topic Author
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:06 pm

kiowa wrote:


The only thing worse than no information about the delay is being lied to about the delay. Actually, there are worse things in aviation but these are quite frustrating because they are avoidable.


How right you are. THAT is why I stopped flying American after having been a top tier AAdvantage program member for about a decade. Actually, there were multiple lies on multiple flights - the last of which was about something other than a delay. No point in providing specifics.
 
blockski
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:34 pm

atl100million wrote:
blockski wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


It's totally reasonable in the abstract. But the information the passengers want is "when will we get there?" or "how long will we be delayed?" And the honest answer would likely be "we don't know."

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly how the airline was characterizing the situation, but just because the passengers are in the dark doesn't mean the airline is withholding information - they just might not know.


The article specifically says the passenger had questions about alternate ground transportation and baggage. Those answers are not related to the ATC system.

Answering those questions does not even require that the flight have been diverted to an AA staffed station.

AA personnel in Ft. Worth could have decided whether they would order buses and if so after what point. They could have made a decision whether bags would be delivered to the passengers if the passengers decided to leave. They could have decided if any type of refund would have been offered or if any amenity costs would have been absorbed by AA whether the flight ultimately operated or not.

They could have communicated all of that information to the crew who could have communicated it to the passengers.

The passengers justifiably felt trapped in a situation where they couldn't make a decision because AA didn't give them enough information. If the crew wouldn't act even if they were empowered to do so, AA should be called out.

Of course there are worse situations but diversions are not uncommon in the summer and especially going into NYC Every carrier that operates into the NE should have policies and procedures to deal with the possibility and be willing o make the situations specific to the situation when a diversion takes place.

The author/passenger complained because most of those decisions weren't made or if they were made weren't communicated to the passengers.

Will life go on? Of course. Did AA or any airline need or want the negative press. Of course not.


I'm sure they had questions, but that doesn't mean those questions had easy answers.

Would they get a bus? If the crew timed out, yes. If not, no. Same thing with the bags - what happens to them likely depends on whether the plane makes it to LGA or not.

None of that is to take away from the passengers feelings about being trapped, but that feeling isn't necessarily AA's fault.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:09 pm

In a WX delay the crew isn't given information when their flight will make the destination. Once the weather clears ATC has no idea when normal traffic will be restored and all the diversions remedied. It is just as accurate for them to throw darts at times as it is for them to make any estimate for a particular flight. I have worked customer service and the biggest headache an agent can get into is trying to help a customer by giving them a reasonable considered estimate of when a situation will be resolved. Invariably the estimate is wrong and 4 out of 5 customers will feel you misled them. Further you stand a fair chance of encountering a customer that is completely enraged that you did not deliver what they believe you had promised them. Saying nothing IS, without any doubt, the superior answer unless you are a masochist.
 
bob75013
Topic Author
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:23 pm

[quote="atypical"]In a WX delay the crew isn't given information when their flight will make the destination. Once the weather clears ATC has no idea when normal traffic will be restored and all the diversions remedied. It is just as accurate for them to throw darts at times as it is for them to make any estimate for a particular flight. I have worked customer service and the biggest headache an agent can get into is trying to help a customer by giving them a reasonable considered estimate of when a situation will be resolved. Invariably the estimate is wrong and 4 out of 5 customers will feel you misled them. Further you stand a fair chance of encountering a customer that is completely enraged that you did not deliver what they believe you had promised them. Saying nothing IS, without any doubt, the superior answer unless you are a masochist.[/quo

Sorry, but saying nothing accentuates the pax feeling of helplessness. "Damn, they've forgotten us" or "Damn, they don't care about us" are the outcomes in passengers' minds.

Saying nothing is the worst thing to do. Occasionally saying "We're still working on it, but don't have an answer yet" is the far better response. That way pax know that they have not been forgotten and that you are still trying.
 
kalvado
Posts: 621
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:38 pm

commavia wrote:
Like so many other unrealistic and uninformed complaints about the airline industry, the "solution" to this "problem" is extremely simple. PAY MORE. Period.

Well, if we were talking about ULCC, that is a reasonable statement.
But some legacies seem to go "ULCC service, full price" direction.
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:00 pm

I read the article and didn't seem particularly outrageous to me. They landed at an alternate airport not far from their destination. The airline could have offered a bust transfer or at least warned passengers it might be a long wait so if they wanted to rent a car and drive to their destination they could have done so. The airline cannot control the weather but at least can inform the passengers so they can make their own decision.
 
PITingres
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:34 pm

Since slow moving weather systems are hardly a new thing, one might be excused for imagining that airlines would have some sort of ready-to-go explanation that would help infrequent flyers understand what the issues are. But noooo.... I hardly think we need to PAY MORE to get some semi reasonable feedback from the airline. Like others here, I've been stuck in an airplane for an hour or two with no information -- not even "Folks, we're stuck here and nobody is talking to me either."

IMHO at least some of this is a marketing function, and I suggest that airlines start building a fire under their marketing departments to come up with ways to handle these situations from an informational standpoint. After all, at least part of the solution involves educating the passenger as to what can go wrong and how it has to get fixed.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 1862
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:49 pm

Anything other than "We will take off immediately, enter warp speed, and get you to New York on time" would probably be unacceptable.
 
atl100million
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Reading the article and responding to his concerns would do wonders to frame the conversation. He simply wanted to be able to make an informed decision about what to do as a result of the decision and AA did not provide enough information for him to do that.

He said nothing about demanding to know an exact arrival time.
 
Rookie87
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:24 pm

Such a non issue article. All 3 major NY area airports were being pounded which means ALL flights were affected. The author's expectations were too high and unreasonable. You land at a station with no personnel to handle anything, how do you expect the airline to deal with out of norm issues with every flight diverted everywhere in a "timely" manner? It makes absolutely no sense. You landed, were allowed off the aircraft, even allowed to go your own way if you wanted to but want the crew to contact HQ as if people are just standing by with requests that cannot be granted? This isn't an issue with one flight (which understandably could have been handled a lot easier due to available man power and resources) this was an issue with all flight in 3 major airports and even Philly according to another poster who was there.
Unrealistic demands have become the norm these days but I'll give the author credit for writing that AA and their crew did do their best to make sure everyone was taken cared of and they even got to their destination without being trapped inside the plane
 
Rookie87
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:28 pm

atl100million wrote:
Reading the article and responding to his concerns would do wonders to frame the conversation. He simply wanted to be able to make an informed decision about what to do as a result of the decision and AA did not provide enough information for him to do that.

He said nothing about demanding to know an exact arrival time.


AA could not give that information since they themselves could not make those guarantees due to being at an airport without their staff or resources to accommodate those requests. The author got a proper response and it is what it is. The customers weren't neglected, weather is out of their control, they got them to NY and even got them off the plane in ACY so what more do you want when all NY flights are going all over the place?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:42 pm

Customer service in any respect is a four letter word for most airlines in the US. You even pick up on the attitude towards customers here on this forum from airline staff and management. The idea that you need to pay more just to get a simple "guys, we're working on getting more information for you" every so often is utterly ridiculous.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:29 am

bob75013 wrote:
Saying nothing is the worst thing to do. Occasionally saying "We're still working on it, but don't have an answer yet" is the far better response. That way pax know that they have not been forgotten and that you are still trying.


From the story:

"The flight crew did its best to answer questions but didn't have a lot of information from the airline. Departure estimates came and went..."

American was not silent. Departure is FAA controlled any estimates the crew got would have been from the FAA. I believe this is standard procedure. In a delay situation I assume the APU is powering the aircraft rather than ground facilities particularly at an airport the airline doesn't serve. The crew will need to manage fuel. If the departure time leaves the AC too low in fuel to safe flight they will need to refuel. The FAA will not want to grant clearance to an aircraft that is not ready to go. If they have no information from the FAA then they cannot effectivity manage the fuel and be ready for departure when clearance is issued.

I was not advocating ignoring the customers at all. I specifically said they should not be the ones generating the information that will be disclosed. It will cause far more problems that it will solve. That does not mean they should stop communicating with the passengers but they should remain silent on making any judgment calls that would be disseminated to the passengers (like making up departure estimates). There is nothing wrong with communicating the FAA estimates as that is the only authoritative source for that information. Crew should only communicate known information. Until a decision is made to take alternate actions there is nothing they can inform the passengers of beyond the FAA estimates. That does not mean ignore in any manner.
 
atl100million
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:15 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
atl100million wrote:
Reading the article and responding to his concerns would do wonders to frame the conversation. He simply wanted to be able to make an informed decision about what to do as a result of the decision and AA did not provide enough information for him to do that.

He said nothing about demanding to know an exact arrival time.


AA could not give that information since they themselves could not make those guarantees due to being at an airport without their staff or resources to accommodate those requests. The author got a proper response and it is what it is. The customers weren't neglected, weather is out of their control, they got them to NY and even got them off the plane in ACY so what more do you want when all NY flights are going all over the place?


From an airline perspective, you might be comfortable that the customer was left in ambiguity but that is not what he wanted and he had every right to voice his displeasure with the lack of answers that were not "when will we get there" which he never doubted was determined by the weather and air traffic control.

His questions were 1. Would AA be responsibile for money lost from being unable to attend events in NYC (the answer is clearly no but no one apparently told him that; US airlines specifically exclude consequential liability from their responsibility) 2. at what point would ground transportation be provided and 3. If he left the flight on his own, would his bags be delivered in NYC.

All of those are questions that HE SAID he did not receive answers to and could have been answered by anyone at AA who came in contact w/ the passenger and for which AA SHOULD HAVE had someone answer.

The customer had expectations of what should happen in the situation and his beef was that those expectations were not addressed either positively or negatively. Landing the flight at a city without AA staff complicated providing those answers but the crew could have been given the answers and empowered to communicate the issues with the customers if AA wanted their operation to work that way.

It is fully to be expected that AA and any other airline that can't address those types of questions will face criticism.

Diversions aren't that uncommon and especially in/around NYC in the summer.
 
hohd
Posts: 559
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:14 pm

Many times the airlines blame it on weather or ATC delay, but in reality could be something else. Or else they blame a weather problem in another part of the country (from which the aircraft flew from, it could flown through that area at any time during the day or previous day).

When passengers see the weather perfectly fine outside, how can you blame it on the weather, this has happened many times, inbound flight delay due to weather (this is at a hub airport). Airlines give no compensation, expecting the passengers to wait it out. At hub airports they need make alternate arrangements (or atleast provide food for lengthy delays). I understand if it is ultra LCC, but for airlines like UA, DL, AA or even Southwest nowadays, they need to communicate better.
 
Rookie87
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:20 pm

atl100million wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
atl100million wrote:
Reading the article and responding to his concerns would do wonders to frame the conversation. He simply wanted to be able to make an informed decision about what to do as a result of the decision and AA did not provide enough information for him to do that.

He said nothing about demanding to know an exact arrival time.


AA could not give that information since they themselves could not make those guarantees due to being at an airport without their staff or resources to accommodate those requests. The author got a proper response and it is what it is. The customers weren't neglected, weather is out of their control, they got them to NY and even got them off the plane in ACY so what more do you want when all NY flights are going all over the place?


From an airline perspective, you might be comfortable that the customer was left in ambiguity but that is not what he wanted and he had every right to voice his displeasure with the lack of answers that were not "when will we get there" which he never doubted was determined by the weather and air traffic control.

His questions were 1. Would AA be responsibile for money lost from being unable to attend events in NYC (the answer is clearly no but no one apparently told him that; US airlines specifically exclude consequential liability from their responsibility) 2. at what point would ground transportation be provided and 3. If he left the flight on his own, would his bags be delivered in NYC.

All of those are questions that HE SAID he did not receive answers to and could have been answered by anyone at AA who came in contact w/ the passenger and for which AA SHOULD HAVE had someone answer.

The customer had expectations of what should happen in the situation and his beef was that those expectations were not addressed either positively or negatively. Landing the flight at a city without AA staff complicated providing those answers but the crew could have been given the answers and empowered to communicate the issues with the customers if AA wanted their operation to work that way.

It is fully to be expected that AA and any other airline that can't address those types of questions will face criticism.

Diversions aren't that uncommon and especially in/around NYC in the summer.



And who's going to answer his questions? The flight attendants? The pilots? The people who talk to the crew to get them from point A to point B without timing out? They should obviously prioritize individual customer requests versus keeping the operation moving. Who did he ask if there was no staff at the airport? You write so much but think so little.
What would the flight crew know about baggage handling? You're expecting them to provide an answer from where the sun doesn't shine. And, what would they even tell him?
Ground transportation or any type of compensation? Who would give them those answers? What agent is available to answer that?
Who does the crew have on speed dial to answer these questions? Expectations vs reality issue. Flight crew do not deal with those issues point blank period.
Criticize all you want but decisions and answers can't be given until certain conditions are met. For his baggage to be delivered he'd have to fill out a baggage report. Flight crew obviously have that on hand and are trained to do it or they could write it on a piece of paper and hopefully not lose it because that makes sense. And just picture it, plane arrives at final destination and the flight attendants give the agent a bag full of different type of scrap paper of addresses to deliver bags but information is missing to deliver those bags that the agent needs, or better yet, Mother Nature changes her mind and the crew end up timing out and have a bunch of scrap paper to deal with now.
Ask yourself these questions before replying
What tools do the employees present at that situation have available to them to handle said situation?
Are they doing what they are trained to do? Do you know what they at the specific airline are trained to do?
Is this a "normal" situation that happens often? Total number of flights vs total diversions due to specific phenomena.
What was done?
What could be done and how do you think it could have been done? Without stating generalities or assumptions

He got from point A to point B safely.
He wasn't "trapped" on the plane. He could have just called the 1-800 number and gotten a straight answer but hey he decided to ask the crew who were stuck with him about things they don't deal with.
With reason, the airlines shouldn't be responsible for weather compensation BECAUSE it is out of their control. And no, it's not a situation where from the airline's perspective I'm comfortable with people being left unaware. You expect some people to be able to get information that they cannot get and then expect those same people to be empowered to answer those questions withjout knowing anything. They communicated what they knew which was NOTHING. End of story
The author said that they communicated with him, he just didn't get the answers he wanted.
Last edited by Rookie87 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:28 pm

hohd wrote:
Many times the airlines blame it on weather or ATC delay, but in reality could be something else. Or else they blame a weather problem in another part of the country (from which the aircraft flew from, it could flown through that area at any time during the day or previous day).

When passengers see the weather perfectly fine outside, how can you blame it on the weather, this has happened many times, inbound flight delay due to weather (this is at a hub airport). Airlines give no compensation, expecting the passengers to wait it out. At hub airports they need make alternate arrangements (or atleast provide food for lengthy delays). I understand if it is ultra LCC, but for airlines like UA, DL, AA or even Southwest nowadays, they need to communicate better.



It seems that you clearly misunderstand just how flight operations work. Airplanes just *magically* teleport themselves without concern to enroute weather eh?

Read your airline's Contract of Carriage: not one of them will compensate for Uncontrollable Delays. However, most of them will bring out snacks and drinks to a gate area that is delayed if there is a lack of food items available in the terminal.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:32 pm

Also, generally speaking, it seems as if a lot of folks forget that all airlines have reservations phone numbers available for use...now I await the expected response...
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 5570
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:59 pm

When does a weather delay stops being a weather delay? Let us say there is an half hour weather closing down an airport. An airplane diverts. Now the airline prioritises delayed departures. Than the airline prioritises long haul flights coming in. Than they do not want to delay flights that are on time, better to have only on group of passengers angry. After four hours wait, 5 hours after the diversion, the destination airport has quietened down, the airline calls out the passengers to board and the plane arrives 6 hours late at at the destination. Is it fair to the passengers to call all 6 hours a weather delay, as most of the delay is in reality operational decisions? You see seldom first delayed first coming in.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:05 pm

hohd wrote:
Many times the airlines blame it on weather or ATC delay, but in reality could be something else. Or else they blame a weather problem in another part of the country (from which the aircraft flew from, it could flown through that area at any time during the day or previous day).

When passengers see the weather perfectly fine outside, how can you blame it on the weather, this has happened many times, inbound flight delay due to weather (this is at a hub airport). Airlines give no compensation, expecting the passengers to wait it out. At hub airports they need make alternate arrangements (or atleast provide food for lengthy delays). I understand if it is ultra LCC, but for airlines like UA, DL, AA or even Southwest nowadays, they need to communicate better.

I am pretty sure it is because airlines do not use their aircraft for just one flight a day. It wouldn't be uncommon for an aircraft to have a routing like JFK-LAX-SFO-GEG. If they have a weather issue at JFK then they also have a weather issue at LAX, SFO, and GEG even if all those airports have 70 degree weather and 15 mile visibility with no cloud cover. Majors can't afford to keep a lot of metal waiting in reserve and in most cases it is out of position and really can't help too many flights that have been effected. Crews have to be reassigned and in many cases the AC that is late still must make it to the final destination even if another has replaced it. Airlines must perform inspections every 100 hours of flight time. Most airlines break that up and have hangers spread around the country so the AC can have a certain proportion of that work performed at a particular station. Different stations will specialize their work to accomplish a certain set of tasks that will eventually covers the 100 hour inspection requirement. If the AC needs to be at a station to perform this work, the airline will fly it there empty. So unless there is a mechanical issue preventing the AC from reaching its final destination it will run late through the system to the chagrin of the passengers but that doesn't mean the airline was in a position to do anything else. Usually by the time a alternate AC can be crewed and make it to the destination required to replace a late aircraft, the late aircraft might even beat the replacement or arrive shortly afterward.

This is from the FAA:

"Delayed and Cancelled Flights

Airlines don't guarantee their schedules, and you should realize this when planning your trip. There are many things that can-and often do-make it impossible for flights to arrive on time. Some of these problems, like bad weather, air traffic delays, and mechanical issues, are hard to predict and often beyond the airlines' control."

No matter what if the airline can't get you to your destination they have to refund that portion of the ticket. The airlines are not required to do anything else in a legitimate delay situation. People assume that if their flight is delayed by weather in departing and they miss their connection and the next possible flight is the next day the airline must provide hotel accommodations. Most then do however nothing requires them to do so. Maybe the airlines should do nothing they are not required to do. It would be refreshing for the posters here that complain about what isn't done to be educated in what the airlines do for passengers as good will and nothing more.

Oh, and I was on a TPA-SFO flight this week that was delayed due to a mechanical issue. UA did provide food and drinks for the passengers, so that large brush you painted the airlines with was used in ignorance.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:48 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
When does a weather delay stops being a weather delay? Let us say there is an half hour weather closing down an airport. An airplane diverts. Now the airline prioritises delayed departures. Than the airline prioritises long haul flights coming in. Than they do not want to delay flights that are on time, better to have only on group of passengers angry. After four hours wait, 5 hours after the diversion, the destination airport has quietened down, the airline calls out the passengers to board and the plane arrives 6 hours late at at the destination. Is it fair to the passengers to call all 6 hours a weather delay, as most of the delay is in reality operational decisions? You see seldom first delayed first coming in.


Yes it is fair. Those operational decisions had to be made because of weather.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:24 am

mjoelnir wrote:
When does a weather delay stops being a weather delay? Let us say there is an half hour weather closing down an airport. An airplane diverts. Now the airline prioritises delayed departures. Than the airline prioritises long haul flights coming in. Than they do not want to delay flights that are on time, better to have only on group of passengers angry. After four hours wait, 5 hours after the diversion, the destination airport has quietened down, the airline calls out the passengers to board and the plane arrives 6 hours late at at the destination. Is it fair to the passengers to call all 6 hours a weather delay, as most of the delay is in reality operational decisions? You see seldom first delayed first coming in.


All I had to do was lay in wait.....

A weather delay ceases to be a weather delay once the operation involving a weather delayed aircraft/crew returns to scheduled operations. Simple.

It's like being late to an event due to being stuck in traffic. An accident occurred, blocking all lanes of traffic on the thoroughfare, and now everyone is slowed down and eventually stopped. If there are no exits (aka, available alternate routes) then you're just stuck moving slowly until the wreck is cleared. Now, even if an hour or so passes by, what was the root cause of the delay? Of course it would be the accident that you had nothing to do with. Yes, you could have left where you were earlier, but at a certain point, how early is too early? Every contingency cannot be planned for because there are far too many uncontrollable variables and inputs. Therefore all one can do is inform whom or what ever is waiting at the destination (if possible) and one will get there when they get there.

Keep it simple....
 
ozark1
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:23 pm

chrisnh wrote:
commavia wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
The writer is asking plainly and simply that American Airlines provide more information to their flight crew, which can then be passed along to its passengers. Seems like a reasonable criticism.


I think a lot of this stems from the (equally understandable) attitude that many passengers have related to lack of control. I really think a lot of the disconnect between passengers and airlines is just that people do not like feeling out of control, and the inescapable reality is that when it comes to commercial air travel, passengers are not in control of virtually anything - their schedule, their safety, their service, etc. - and simply have to find a way to deal with that.


I think you bring up a great point: People get stressed when 'personal control' evaporates once you enter an airline terminal (never mind the plane itself). You enter an airport and it's as though 'Authorities' have basically taken hold of you.

This is the problem, plain and simple. Relinquishing control and feeling helpless. I really question how, thanks to the antiquated ATC system, an airline is supposed to provide detailed information when they don't even know it. I feel overall that , at least at my carrier, the pilots (at least most of them) do a lot to keep the people informed of any information they receive. The big problem comes when someone is on the phone talking to someone at the destination and stops me in the aisle: "They say it's clear skies there! You are lying to us!" Planes can't circle forever and have to land for fuel eventually. Storms move and redevelop. Some diversion stations aren't equipped to handle a lot of aircraft. But I digress. I try and be as calming to people as I can be, and those that have the personality traits of patience and acceptance and an attempt at understanding are going to do a lot better than someone who immediately believes someone is lying. Please never assume i think the airlines are never wrong, because they screw up, a lot, but sometimes I just feel people should be able to see the other side of the situation and just how complicated it can be when things become complicated.
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
Also, generally speaking, it seems as if a lot of folks forget that all airlines have reservations phone numbers available for use...now I await the expected response...


Actually in my experience calling up the airline/reaching out on Twitter has given me much better results than dealing with the horrid, horrid, individuals working the gate or the airline's CS counter.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 5570
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:20 pm

Judge1310 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
When does a weather delay stops being a weather delay? Let us say there is an half hour weather closing down an airport. An airplane diverts. Now the airline prioritises delayed departures. Than the airline prioritises long haul flights coming in. Than they do not want to delay flights that are on time, better to have only on group of passengers angry. After four hours wait, 5 hours after the diversion, the destination airport has quietened down, the airline calls out the passengers to board and the plane arrives 6 hours late at at the destination. Is it fair to the passengers to call all 6 hours a weather delay, as most of the delay is in reality operational decisions? You see seldom first delayed first coming in.


All I had to do was lay in wait.....

A weather delay ceases to be a weather delay once the operation involving a weather delayed aircraft/crew returns to scheduled operations. Simple.

It's like being late to an event due to being stuck in traffic. An accident occurred, blocking all lanes of traffic on the thoroughfare, and now everyone is slowed down and eventually stopped. If there are no exits (aka, available alternate routes) then you're just stuck moving slowly until the wreck is cleared. Now, even if an hour or so passes by, what was the root cause of the delay? Of course it would be the accident that you had nothing to do with. Yes, you could have left where you were earlier, but at a certain point, how early is too early? Every contingency cannot be planned for because there are far too many uncontrollable variables and inputs. Therefore all one can do is inform whom or what ever is waiting at the destination (if possible) and one will get there when they get there.

Keep it simple....


That is a very simplistic answer and typical for the thought process of people connected to airlines.

An accident occurred, but than there is not an operation that decides who will be the first, second and so on car to move, because it is in the operational interest of a corporation. A comparison as far removed from how it works with airlines as you could possible find. The airline decides who waits 2 hours or 6 hours or not at all.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Chicago Tribune Writer Slams AA (and airlines in general)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:30 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
When does a weather delay stops being a weather delay? Let us say there is an half hour weather closing down an airport. An airplane diverts. Now the airline prioritises delayed departures. Than the airline prioritises long haul flights coming in. Than they do not want to delay flights that are on time, better to have only on group of passengers angry. After four hours wait, 5 hours after the diversion, the destination airport has quietened down, the airline calls out the passengers to board and the plane arrives 6 hours late at at the destination. Is it fair to the passengers to call all 6 hours a weather delay, as most of the delay is in reality operational decisions? You see seldom first delayed first coming in.


All I had to do was lay in wait.....

A weather delay ceases to be a weather delay once the operation involving a weather delayed aircraft/crew returns to scheduled operations. Simple.

It's like being late to an event due to being stuck in traffic. An accident occurred, blocking all lanes of traffic on the thoroughfare, and now everyone is slowed down and eventually stopped. If there are no exits (aka, available alternate routes) then you're just stuck moving slowly until the wreck is cleared. Now, even if an hour or so passes by, what was the root cause of the delay? Of course it would be the accident that you had nothing to do with. Yes, you could have left where you were earlier, but at a certain point, how early is too early? Every contingency cannot be planned for because there are far too many uncontrollable variables and inputs. Therefore all one can do is inform whom or what ever is waiting at the destination (if possible) and one will get there when they get there.

Keep it simple....


That is a very simplistic answer and typical for the thought process of people connected to airlines.

An accident occurred, but than there is not an operation that decides who will be the first, second and so on car to move, because it is in the operational interest of a corporation. A comparison as far removed from how it works with airlines as you could possible find. The airline decides who waits 2 hours or 6 hours or not at all.


And here is the next one again...

It's a simple answer because that is the fundamental root of the issue discussed. In the accident analogy there is, indeed, an operation that determines who moves when: it's called logic, i.e. those that are closest to an exit flow out of a choke-point will utilise it, thereby allowing all the other vehicles behind to eventually be free from the logjam.

Of course an airline has to decide who waits; what would you prefer, a massive free-for-all where anyone departs when they want? It's statements like these that you continually make that grossly display your lack of knowledge of airline operations. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, HOWEVER, how about making a genuine attempt to learn and understand from the professionals in the industry that we all are interested in and stop playing the role of an antagonistic internet troll. Policies are procedures are created and implemented due to event precedence.

And please, go fly corporate if airlines are really all that bad.....

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos