trauha
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Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:13 pm

Is the DC9-10 -> MD90-30 (assuming these the shortest and longest variants) a longer proportional length difference
(and in absolute feet length terms),
than the original Boeing 737 -> 737-900?
Or is the longest 'stretch' maybe the 747 SP to the 747-800?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:20 pm

trauha wrote:
Or is the longest 'stretch' maybe the 747 SP to the 747-800?


Here you are wrong since the 747SP was a shrinking of the original length.
 
trauha
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Aware of this is why I put the inverted commas around stretch: 'stretch'.
You are right - DIFFERENCE would have been a better word. :-)

Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:37 pm

trauha wrote:
Aware of this is why I put the inverted commas around stretch: 'stretch'.
You are right - DIFFERENCE would have been a better word. :-)

Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?



A318
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

SeaDoo wrote:
trauha wrote:
Aware of this is why I put the inverted commas around stretch: 'stretch'.
You are right - DIFFERENCE would have been a better word. :-)

Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?



A318


717
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm

trauha wrote:
Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?


No, it certainly isn't. The A319 and A318 are both shortened versions of the original A320. The F-70 is a shortened F-100.
 
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DABYT
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm

What about the A340-200 compared to the A340-600? That was quite a stretch
 
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Balerit
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:41 pm

trauha wrote:
Aware of this is why I put the inverted commas around stretch: 'stretch'.
You are right - DIFFERENCE would have been a better word. :-)

Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?


A310 comes to mind.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
trauha
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:43 pm

SeaDoo wrote:

717


Are the 717 frames different to the DC9? So not describable as a DC9 stretch?
 
trauha
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:48 pm

731 to 739 is probably a 55% difference
the DC9-10 to MD90 is probably a 43% difference
The 747SP to 748 probably a 36% difference.
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:54 pm

A318 to A321 = 41 % increase
A340-200 to -600 = 27 % increase
B737-100 to -1000 = 53 % increase
B747SP to -8 = 35 % increase
DC9-10 to MD90 = 46 % increase

Trauha, your guesses were damn good!
 
trauha
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:59 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
A318 to A321 = 41 % increase
A340-200 to -600 = 27 % increase
B737-100 to -1000 = 53 % increase
B747SP to -8 = 35 % increase
DC9-10 to MD90 = 46 % increase

Trauha, your guesses were damn good!


Lovely information! Thanks.
Engines up on tail seems to enable longest stretch, but why?
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:04 pm

'What about the CRJ's... the original CRJ200 was 50 seats, the last variant, the CRJ 1000 was 100 or so seats. That would be close to, if not an almost 100% increase in size?
 
FARmd90
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:04 pm

What about the CRJ-200 to CRJ-1000
 
c933103
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:08 pm

A310 to A346 is like 60%?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:10 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
'What about the CRJ's... the original CRJ200 was 50 seats, the last variant, the CRJ 1000 was 100 or so seats. That would be close to, if not an almost 100% increase in size?

FARmd90 wrote:
What about the CRJ-200 to CRJ-1000


46% (26.77m to 39.1m)
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:10 pm

Original CRJ100/200 was 26.8 meters in length . The CRJ 1000 is 39.1 meters. That is a 46% increase in size. And do not forget that the original CRJ100/200 was a stretch from the Challenger jets, so the increase in size is even more.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:11 pm

Original CRJ100/200 was 26.8 meters in length . The CRJ 1000 is 39.1 meters. That is a 46% increase in size. And do not forget that the original CRJ100/200 was a stretch from the Challenger jets, so the increase in size is even more.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:14 pm

c933103 wrote:
A310 to A346 is like 60%?


The A310 and the A340 are not the same family...The 310 is a shortened A300...that´s about it.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:20 pm

If you consider that the CRJ100/200 was a 6 meter stretch of the CL600, that would mean that the CRJ 1000 is 88% longer than the original Challenger CL600
 
c933103
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:40 pm

RalXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A310 to A346 is like 60%?


The A310 and the A340 are not the same family...The 310 is a shortened A300...that´s about it.

But the fuelsage is still the same?
How about ARJ21-700 vs MD90? Edit: Seems like ARJ21-700 is still larger than DC9-10?
 
RalXWB
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:43 pm

The fuselage of the 707/720/727/737/757 is also the same...so? We should stay within one type...
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:50 pm

trauha wrote:
Aware of this is why I put the inverted commas around stretch: 'stretch'.
You are right - DIFFERENCE would have been a better word. :-)


Sigh, my bad indeed.
 
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leleko747
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:03 pm

B767-200: 48,5m
B767-400ER: 61,3m

Not the biggest increase, I guess. But still nice to look!

trauha wrote:
747-800


747-8.
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190.
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:15 pm

RalXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A310 to A346 is like 60%?


The A310 and the A340 are not the same family...The 310 is a shortened A300...that´s about it.


I believe they are just like the 318/319/320/321 are the same family where the two first ones are shortened versions of the 320. The A310 was originally named A300B10.

It seems though that Boeing and Douglas always went up (except for the 720 and the 747SP) whereas Airbus goes both directions.
 
trauha
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:21 pm

The CL600 to CRJ1000 huge stretch again says that rear engines may make for bigger stretches.
Any clever explanation why this is so? Is it so?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:10 pm

trauha wrote:
The CL600 to CRJ1000 huge stretch again says that rear engines may make for bigger stretches.
Any clever explanation why this is so? Is it so?


CL600 is a corporate jet, so I don't think it is a fair comparison. Corporate jets are by their very nature quite short compared to their width.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:16 pm

trauha wrote:
731 to 739 is probably a 55% difference.


Then you could argue: Fokker F28 Mk.1000 (27,4 m)- Fokker F100 (35,53 m)- F130 (39,00 m) --> 42% increase, if Rekkof will ever fly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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JBo
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:42 pm

I think the biggest reason why aircraft with tail-mounted engines are better suited to longer stretches is because the wings are mounted further aft, which means there isn't as much distance between the main landing gear and the tail, reducing the possibility for a tail strike on rotation.

On aircraft with wing-mounted engines, the wings are further forward, so you have less room to rotate before chancing a tail strike.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
factsonly
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:43 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The F-70 is a shortened F-100.


The Fokker 100 is a streched, re-engineered and re-engined F28-Mk4000, its official type vertificate says Fokker F28-Mk0100
The Fokker 70 is basically a re-engineered, re-engined F28 Mk4000, its official type certification says Fokker F28-Mk0070


The family consists of:
- F28 Mark 1000
- F28 Mark 1000C
- F28 Mark 2000
- F28 Mark 3000
- F28 Mark 3000C
- F28 Mark 3000R
- F28 Mark 3000RC
- F28 Mark 4000
- F28 Mark 0100
- F28 Mark 0070

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... 082013.pdf
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:59 pm

ro1960 wrote:
It seems though that Boeing and Douglas always went up (except for the 720 and the 747SP) whereas Airbus goes both directions.


Depending on how you see it that's not always true. The 737-500 for example was a shortened 737-300. Of course the previous generation 737s (100 and 200) were shorter, but within it's generation the 737-500 was a shortening.

Not sure about the 737NG. I'm assuming the 737-800 was the base model here, so that makes the 737-600 and 700 shortened versions. Maybe longer than their previous generation counterparts, but shortened versions of their generations.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:14 pm

trauha wrote:
Which fuselages have been shrunk? Is the 747 the only one?

Plenty.

As mentioned, several of the Dougies and Maddogs, in addition to 735 and 736 as well as the A310, A318, A319, A342, and A345.

Another one that I don't believe has been said is the A332, also a shrink. Pretty sure the L1011-500 was a shrink too.

The A358 will be a shrink as well, if it's ever built... which I doubt.

One that's commonly assumed to be a shrink, but is NOT, is the 772LR.
It came after the 773ER and incorporated most of its newer components, but it was actually built on the baseline frame, not a shrunken one.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:30 pm

trauha wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:

717


Are the 717 frames different to the DC9? So not describable as a DC9 stretch?


It was a McDonnell Douglass design, so some aspects were certainly taken from the DC/MD frames. Once Boeing bought McDD they had two "new" aircraft they were producing. They chose the 737-600 (a shrink) over the 717. At the time, IMO they could have sold more 717's that 736's.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:30 pm

JBo wrote:
I think the biggest reason why aircraft with tail-mounted engines are better suited to longer stretches is because the wings are mounted further aft, which means there isn't as much distance between the main landing gear and the tail, reducing the possibility for a tail strike on rotation.

On aircraft with wing-mounted engines, the wings are further forward, so you have less room to rotate before chancing a tail strike.


The height of the MLG also plays an important role. The four wing mounted engine DC-8 -10/20/30/40/50/60 were stretched to the -60 (+24%) thanks to its height landing gear and s slight tilt forward. Same goes for the A340.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:


PatrickZ80 wrote:
Not sure about the 737NG. I'm assuming the 737-800 was the base model here, so that makes the 737-600 and 700 shortened versions. Maybe longer than their previous generation counterparts, but shortened versions of their generations.


Launch dates and the entry in service dates will give us the right order:
-700: 1993/1998 --> base model
-800: 1994/1998 --> stretched
-600: 1995/1998 --> shortened
-900: 1997/2001 --> stretched
 
Arion640
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:48 pm

Is the 787-8 a shrink of the 787-9 then? 787-9 a shrink of the 10?
319 320 321 346 388 733 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 E195 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:04 pm

trauha wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:

717


Are the 717 frames different to the DC9? So not describable as a DC9 stretch?


The Boeing 717 was supposed to be the MD-95.

As for another one---the CL600 series was stretched to the CRJ-100/200, CRJ-700, CRJ-900, and CRJ-1000. The CRJ-1000, at 128.4 feet, is a 60-foot stretch of the CL600 series. I consider this valid because it's the same type certificate. The DC-9 series has only a 49-foot stretch from DC-9-14 to the MD-90-30, the Boeing 737 50 feet from -100 to -MAX 10, and the A342-A346 is a 53-foot stretch.
 
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GE90man
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Is the 787-8 a shrink of the 787-9 then? 787-9 a shrink of the 10?

No, Boeing came out with the -8 first, then stretched it to become the -9, and then further stretched it to become the -10
 
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ro1960
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:27 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
As mentioned, several of the Dougies and Maddogs, in addition to 735 and 736 as well as the A310, A318, A319, A342, and A345.


The A342 and A343 were launched simultaneously. They were more of a family than a stretch/shortening.
 
Fisch
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:39 pm

Q200 = 22.25m and Q400 = 32.80m about a 46% difference.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:07 pm

ro1960 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
As mentioned, several of the Dougies and Maddogs, in addition to 735 and 736 as well as the A310, A318, A319, A342, and A345.

The A342 and A343 were launched simultaneously. They were more of a family than a stretch/shortening.

I'm aware, but I'd still call it a shrink for two reasons:
1) the A343 was to be the baseline moving forward, and the proposed A340-400, had it made it to market, would've been built off of that.
2) the A342 suffered the fate of nearly all shrinks: similar platform & weights but less revenue space.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:50 pm

trauha wrote:
The CL600 to CRJ1000 huge stretch again says that rear engines may make for bigger stretches.
Any clever explanation why this is so? Is it so?


One major limiting factor of stretching planes is scraping the tail during rotation or flare. Planes with aft-mounted engines don't stretch nearly as much behind the wing as they do in front of it ( heavy engines need more counterbalance), so they aren't impacted by tail strike quite so much. More specific to the CRJ, the 7/9 has a much taller main gear than the 1/2 did, giving it much more room to rotate.

Fun fact: the wheel base (distance from nose to mains) of a CRJ9 exceeds that of a B739.
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
CL600 is a corporate jet, so I don't think it is a fair comparison. Corporate jets are by their very nature quite short compared to their width.


They are all the same type certificate though. They are all CL-600s, from the first Challenger 600 to the CRJ-1000. It's astonishing that the cabin length was stretched from 8.6m to 23.6m, nearly triple the length!
 
tilerchin
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:18 am

one could compare the 737-100 to the 737 MAX 10, around a 52% increase
 
reltney
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:44 am

RalXWB wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A310 to A346 is like 60%?


The A310 and the A340 are not the same family...The 310 is a shortened A300...that´s about it.



NOT. 310 to 340-600 is the same fuselage. Even Airbus stresses that.

So the 310 to 340-600 is a correct notion. Same class? They differ by 2 or 4 engines so in that aspect, they are different. However, same fuselage...same...

Facts are fun...
I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
RalXWB
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 am

According to this logic, the 731 (28.65 m) to 753 (54.50 m) is also a correct notion. Same fuselage...same...

Facts are really fun...
 
VSMUT
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:47 am

c933103 wrote:
A310 to A346 is like 60%?


It's a 61.5% increase.

Using the same method, the 737-100 to 757-300 is a 90% increase. But thats a bit of a stretch :stretch: :duck:
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:17 am

reltney wrote:
NOT. 310 to 340-600 is the same fuselage. Even Airbus stresses that.

So the 310 to 340-600 is a correct notion. Same class? They differ by 2 or 4 engines so in that aspect, they are different. However, same fuselage...same...

Facts are fun...


No, that's not correct. They got an entirely different wing design. The A330 / A340 got a much wider wingspan than the A300 / A310. Also the cockpit design is very different. Therefor the A300 / A310 is always considered a different family from the A330 / A340.
 
conaly
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:27 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
No, that's not correct. They got an entirely different wing design. The A330 / A340 got a much wider wingspan than the A300 / A310. Also the cockpit design is very different. Therefor the A300 / A310 is always considered a different family from the A330 / A340.


A340-300 and A340-600 have different wings. The 747-200, 747-400 and 747-8 also have different wings (and the -200 even a different cockpit), the 747SP has a different tail and different flaps. The 737-100 and 737NG have also different cockpits and different wing designs, the MAX adds a different tail design, the 707, 727 and 757 use actually only the fuselage, while nearly everything else is different. That means you can attach different wings, different tails, different cockpits, noses, gears and whatever. Still all of them use the same basic design for the fuselage. So yes, A310 to A340 is correct.
 
WIederling
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Re: Longest fuselage (proportional) length difference?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:03 pm

trauha wrote:
Engines up on tail seems to enable longest stretch, but why?


because the tail needs to be short to reduce the engine weight lever
even if you've made a fu*ing cigar out of the fuselage.

That gives leeway for rotation.
With engines near the CG on the wings you have to extend
tail and head :-) in comparable amounts.
Murphy is an optimist

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