FoxtrotSierra
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Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:13 am

Seeing as the ME3's expansion contines, stimulating and tapping into new markets, one notable destination they haven't yet tried yet is HNL. That said, everyone knows it's not going to be Etihad doing this, and even at that, it'll more than likely be a few years before EK or QR bite. There are a number of challenges, not the least of which is range and profitability, but if they can make it viable through connecting traffic, who'll be first a few years down the road when it does happen: EK or QR?
 
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zelalemon
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:31 am

To where would these passengers be heading? Its quicker to get to most of Europe by going the other way. (Through LAX or SFO)
 
c933103
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:20 am

Assuming the economy of Africa and Middle East are going to experience a huge boom that there are enough people willing to pay enough money to fly 20 hours for leisure destination and then further assuming the people there somehow become obssessed with Hawaii? Or assume Honolulu somehow replaced the role of New York and become financial capital of the US?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:36 am

Unless they do it via Japan (fat chance) then probably neither, any time remotely foreseeable.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
RichardWelling
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:05 am

After inserting a dummy booking, it will take 31 hours and 23 minutes on QR. The quickest routing was BEY-DOH-LAX-HNL. The routing alone is making me tired. Not too sure if there is much of a demand to warrant its own flight on either carrier but I could be wrong.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:19 am

Humorous concept... and zero probability.
http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/
Pick any report. ME and Africa are statistically non-existent inbound to HNL.
 
directorguy
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:11 am

Travel from the ME, India and Africa to Hawaii is low because of how far it is and the number of stops one has to make. But the interest is there-if it was somehow quick and cost effective, more people would do it. Nonstop flights or convenient 1 stop options have historically stimulated travel demand.
 
Carpethead
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:27 am

While everybody thinks non-stop, if they ever get rights, not tot far fetched to think via NGO or KIX in Japan.
To answer the question: my bet would be EK.
 
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angelopga
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:11 am

This one is easy to answer: None
 
c933103
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:00 am

directorguy wrote:
Travel from the ME, India and Africa to Hawaii is low because of how far it is and the number of stops one has to make. But the interest is there-if it was somehow quick and cost effective, more people would do it. Nonstop flights or convenient 1 stop options have historically stimulated travel demand.

People from like BOM or DEL can already fly one-stop to HNL via NRT. If the demand is there then carriers like SQ, CX, should hace opened up HNL route already to serve connections from India/ME but that's not happening.
And while AirAsia and Scoot do indeed start opened 1-stop route from KUL/SIN to HNL and thus provide a relatively easier and cheaper 2-stop connection from much of their network including points in India, most seats on those flights are booked by Japanese, very little of then are actually connecting, probably even much less are Indian
 
c933103
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:06 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Unless they do it via Japan (fat chance) then probably neither, any time remotely foreseeable.

Carpethead wrote:
While everybody thinks non-stop, if they ever get rights, not tot far fetched to think via NGO or KIX in Japan.
To answer the question: my bet would be EK.

With multiple foreign LCCs entering the Japan-HNL market and also ANA's introduction of A380 service on the route, it's already seeing huge increase in capacity and the consequential yield suppression. Not sure what will happen if these routes get even more A380.
 
Arion640
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:12 am

Heres a question, A EU3 airline to HNL or a ME3 first? The answer is still probably going to be netheir !
319 320 321 346 388 733 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 E195 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
B777LRF
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:24 am

Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
SonOfABeech
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:37 am

It will be the first one to get 5th freedom rights from Japan.
 
airbazar
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:49 am

Not likely to happen but if I have to pick one I'll pick EK. The more likely possibility would be an extension of one of the MNL flight to HNL, if they can get 5th freedom rights. Another option would be to extend one of its LGW flights to HNL.
 
Pe@rson
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:49 am

B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Or the Seychelles or Mauritius or Maldives!
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
hz747300
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:53 am

Could they do us a favor and have a direct HKG flight already? I'd accept 5th freedom EK or QR, DXB-HKG-HNL or DOH-HKG-HNL. The problem is HNL is almost exclusively a leisure destination save for military (but only domestic), hospitality, and *maybe* shipping. So with such little premium demand, it would require an economy laden, seat-dumping, high capacity aircraft. Is this the best use of such an aircraft?
Keep on truckin'...
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:07 pm

RE europe to Hawaii, I don't understand why US airlines never tried a virtual direct (one-stop) flight on single aircraft, even once weekly and seasonal, to test the waters.
For instance, DL flying LHR-SEA-HNL or UA flying LHR-LAX-HNL on the same aircraft -e.g. 767. This would be a very small detour from the shortest direct route' it would be great marketing and the airlines are already flying the LHR and HNL flights separately so they could sell the segments separately as well. And definitely it wouldn't be a problem to fill a 767 to HNL at least seasonally.
 
NichCage
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:44 pm

No way you would ever see the ME3 in HNL. The market is not there. Period. And it is also way too long as well.

HNL itself has quite a lot of flights to Asia. Japan has like a dozen destinations served from HNL, Along with China (PEK and PVG), South Korea (ICN), Taiwan (TPE), etc.

However, why are there no HKG flights on CX or even HA? Even airlines like SQ don't fly to HNL from SIN. Also, why doesn't EVA Air serve HNL while China Airlines does?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:04 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Unless they do it via Japan (fat chance) then probably neither, any time remotely foreseeable.

Yea... I cannot think of a way to make the route work directly. Europe to LAX to Hawaii is much easier....


The ME3 will grow, but not to. Hawaii.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:08 am

B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Better music.
Better beaches.
No harassment.
American roads, on which roads traffic laws are obeyed.
And best of all ...
Hawaiian culture.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:11 am

NichCage wrote:
However, why are there no HKG flights on CX or even HA? Even airlines like SQ don't fly to HNL from SIN. Also, why doesn't EVA Air serve HNL while China Airlines does?


UA operated HNL/HKG nonstop in the 80s. Worth the trip just to land at Kai Tek.
 
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RL777
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:12 am

NichCage wrote:
No way you would ever see the ME3 in HNL. The market is not there. Period. And it is also way too long as well.

HNL itself has quite a lot of flights to Asia. Japan has like a dozen destinations served from HNL, Along with China (PEK and PVG), South Korea (ICN), Taiwan (TPE), etc.

However, why are there no HKG flights on CX or even HA? Even airlines like SQ don't fly to HNL from SIN. Also, why doesn't EVA Air serve HNL while China Airlines does?


There's been consistent discussion amongst FF and enthusiasts about a HKG-HNL route but I don't see much demand. There are similar beach destinations much closer to HKG that are well served by many carriers including LCCs. Japan-Hawaii is the most lucrative Asian market due to its closer proximity and historic ties.
 
hz747300
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:06 am

RL777 wrote:
There's been consistent discussion amongst FF and enthusiasts about a HKG-HNL route but I don't see much demand. There are similar beach destinations much closer to HKG that are well served by many carriers including LCCs. Japan-Hawaii is the most lucrative Asian market due to its closer proximity and historic ties.


I don't think this is the case given flights to the Maldives, and it would probably be much the same crowd. I suspect a flight to HNL would be around 10 hours. However, if no local carrier (local to either destination) wants to start the route, why not open it up to EK or QR in a 5th Freedom route. I'm flying HKG to ICN next week for work on TG and I know there are a few other 5th freedoms from here. So two things; HKG CAD would have to approve such a route, and EK or QR would have to want to fly the route. I can only think they would want to fly it to say they do, not for any commercial reason (at least from the Middle East).

WPvsMW wrote:
Better music.
Better beaches.
No harassment.
American roads, on which roads traffic laws are obeyed.
And best of all ...
Hawaiian culture.


That would be all the reasons I would want to go there from here! Plus one stop to PHX from there.
Keep on truckin'...
 
bohica
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:12 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
RE europe to Hawaii, I don't understand why US airlines never tried a virtual direct (one-stop) flight on single aircraft, even once weekly and seasonal, to test the waters.


Western Airlines used to fly HNL-ANC-LGW with a DC-10-30 in 1981. The route was flown twice a week. They didn't make any money on it. http://www.departedflights.com/WA030181p8.html


To answer the OP question, none of the above. I see no business justification to operate between DXB/DOH and HNL. There is very little, if any traffic to justify committing two airframes, even with a stop.
 
coolian2
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:31 am

WPvsMW wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Better music.
Better beaches.
No harassment.
American roads, on which roads traffic laws are obeyed.
And best of all ...
Hawaiian culture.

I can go to Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Niue, Cook Islands, New Caledonia, I'm getting bored of typing now....
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/CRJ-700/-900
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:53 am

No way you would ever see the ME3 in HNL. The market is not there. Period. And it is also way too long as well.

HNL itself has quite a lot of flights to Asia. Japan has like a dozen destinations served from HNL, Along with China (PEK and PVG), South Korea (ICN), Taiwan (TPE), etc.

However, why are there no HKG flights on CX or even HA? Even airlines like SQ don't fly to HNL from SIN. Also, why doesn't EVA Air serve HNL while China Airlines does?


CI direct TPE-HNL is 2/wk, while TPE-NRT-HNL is daily. Which tells you about where the "true" demand of CI's flight is.

And SIN? 2 hrs flight (if even that) to Southern Thailand (HKT/KBV/USM, etc.), 4.5 hrs flight to MLE, there are also places around Malaysia also. And no need for Hawaiian sunshine either - you have a ton in Singapore already.

For HKG, same thing as Singapore - just tons more leisure destination that are much closer and much cheaper. Doesn't help that HKer need a US visa just to visit Hawaii.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:26 am

WPvsMW wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Better music.
Better beaches.
No harassment.
American roads, on which roads traffic laws are obeyed.
And best of all ...
Hawaiian culture.


Better music? Bars will play more or less the same tunes all over the world. Not being subjected to Hawaiian 'music' would be a plus to me
Better beaches? You base this on what, exactly? Tripadvisor doesn't list a single beach in Hawaii in it's top 27, but there are a couple from SE Asia. Most, however, are in S. America, the Caribbean and Europe
No harassment? Well, if you're white I guess you're safe from police brutality whether it's in Hawaii or SE Asia
American roads? Some of the worst I've driven in the civilised world, and obeying traffic laws wasn't exactly what I observed. Besides, most people don't go on beach vacations with an aim to go driving
Hawaiian culture? Is that supposed to be superior to any other island culture?
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
airbazar
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:37 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
RE europe to Hawaii, I don't understand why US airlines never tried a virtual direct (one-stop) flight on single aircraft, even once weekly and seasonal, to test the waters.
For instance, DL flying LHR-SEA-HNL or UA flying LHR-LAX-HNL on the same aircraft -e.g. 767. This would be a very small detour from the shortest direct route' it would be great marketing and the airlines are already flying the LHR and HNL flights separately so they could sell the segments separately as well. And definitely it wouldn't be a problem to fill a 767 to HNL at least seasonally.

They've been doing that for years. What difference does it make if it's the same aircraft or not? Passengers still have to get off the plane to clear immigration and customs before continuing. You can fly with VS/DL via multiple cities but LAX offers by far the best connectivity. and the same goes for UA/LH combinations.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:29 pm

Better beaches? You base this on what, exactly? Tripadvisor doesn't list a single beach in Hawaii in it's top 27, but there are a couple from SE Asia. Most, however, are in S. America, the Caribbean and Europe


Not just "best beaches". No "best all-inclusive resort" on the list either (And such ratings are heavily American-centric already). There are a few in the like of Mauritius that make the list, however.

No harassment? Well, if you're white I guess you're safe from police brutality whether it's in Hawaii or SE Asia


I actually find this funny myself. If it's direct DXB/DOH/AUH-HNL then you're talking about African and Middle Easterner. No harassment? Ok, Hawaii is different from CONUS, but to say "no" harassment is just ridiculous. (Not stereotyping or anything, just that there will be those stupid idiots that make everyone else looks bad).

Not to mention, if they really insist on visiting an American leisure destinations, there's always Florida. Much closer and already direct flight to South Beach via FLL (EK) or MIA (QR).
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:44 pm

bohica wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
RE europe to Hawaii, I don't understand why US airlines never tried a virtual direct (one-stop) flight on single aircraft, even once weekly and seasonal, to test the waters.


Western Airlines used to fly HNL-ANC-LGW with a DC-10-30 in 1981. The route was flown twice a week. They didn't make any money on it. http://www.departedflights.com/WA030181p8.html


Yes but my point is the traffic between LGW and ANC was not and is not that huge as to sustain the route. LHR to SEA and LAX can already be sustained as stand alone flights.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:52 pm

airbazar wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
RE europe to Hawaii, I don't understand why US airlines never tried a virtual direct (one-stop) flight on single aircraft, even once weekly and seasonal, to test the waters.
For instance, DL flying LHR-SEA-HNL or UA flying LHR-LAX-HNL on the same aircraft -e.g. 767. This would be a very small detour from the shortest direct route' it would be great marketing and the airlines are already flying the LHR and HNL flights separately so they could sell the segments separately as well. And definitely it wouldn't be a problem to fill a 767 to HNL at least seasonally.

They've been doing that for years. What difference does it make if it's the same aircraft or not? Passengers still have to get off the plane to clear immigration and customs before continuing. You can fly with VS/DL via multiple cities but LAX offers by far the best connectivity. and the same goes for UA/LH combinations.


Every passenger traveling to the USA has to clear US immigration at some point throughout their journey.
Maybe using the same aircraft may not make a huge difference but offering a direct (one-stop) flight may make a huge difference for marketing purposes. I bet the airline(s) may be also able to scoop up some incentives from HI whilst testing the waters and see if the end-to-end traffic is good without virtually facing any risk as LHR to SEA/LAX traffic and SEA/LAX to HNL traffic are already proven to be sustained.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Every passenger traveling to the USA has to clear US immigration at some point throughout their journey.
Maybe using the same aircraft may not make a huge difference but offering a direct (one-stop) flight may make a huge difference for marketing purposes. I bet the airline(s) may be also able to scoop up some incentives from HI whilst testing the waters and see if the end-to-end traffic is good without virtually facing any risk as LHR to SEA/LAX traffic and SEA/LAX to HNL traffic are already proven to be sustained.


People from, let say, London, if they really want to travel to Hawaii, would have just get on one of the million connection options already. I just don't see how much market change a "direct" one-stop flight would make compare to the arrangement now.

I mean, look at Kangaroo route, only BA and QF still offered a "direct" one-stop flight between UK and Australia (And no other European carrier from anywhere does). Then, you still see the ME3 (along with the like of SQ) taking a huge chuck of the market. The "direct" flight when it comes to marketing is just not as big as one would think.
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Back in the days after Sept. 11, Hawaii was actually seeing a boom in tourism after the initial drop-to-almost-0 in visitor arrivals due to the upset in flights to and from the islands. The reason that was given at the time still holds true today. Hawaii is one of the few resort destinations in which visitors could actually go outside of their hotel and go into the different neighborhoods and such without being abducted, mugged or in some cases killed. It was explained that in other resort places, such as Jamaica for instance, most times people go to these resort destinations and are almost forced to stay at the resort full-time due to security and safety issues once outside the gates of the resort.

Hawaii's criminal issues are way less than what is faced by visitors going to other resort destinations. It is what saved Hawaii during the first months after 9/11 and keeps people coming back for more.
 
RichardWelling
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:12 am

I forgot to mention that you can probably see both carriers operating into HNL right now under their cargo arm. I am sure they have operated cargo charters into HNL in the past.

Both QR and EK are very popular in the equine transport world.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:10 am

An EK 744F stopped in HNL in 2010... otherwise zip. HNLRareBirds would have covered any other stops.
http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/search?q=emirates

A QR A342 visited OGG in 2008... royal/VIP. Otherwise zip.
http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/search?q=qatar

EY, never.
 
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lugie
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:02 am

Arion640 wrote:
Heres a question, A EU3 airline to HNL or a ME3 first? The answer is still probably going to be netheir !


Well judging by the visitor report linked upthread ( http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/ ) the first logical choice in a direct flight to Europe would be to Germany, since apparently Germans account for the largest share of European visitors (Something I did not expect, tbh)

So what would make most sense according to that would be an HNL-FRA flight and given the influence LH has on Fraport you can bet that this won't be a DXB-FRA-HNL routing on EK.
Which means that in your case, the EU3 would win the race (in shape of LH) or neither wins and UA takes it.

At 6475nm the routing would be comfortably within the range of LH's B744, B748, A343, A346, A359 and A388 (basically their entire longhaul fleet except for the A333).
Q400 E175 CRJ9 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 B733 B738 B788
X3 LH 4U TP US YX SN EI LA
FRA STR HAM TXL ACE BRU BLL DUB MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT
 
airbazar
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:16 pm

It would be great if people stopped the bickering about what place is better for vacationing, which is totally subjective and irrelevant for the thread at hand. Having been to a lot of the listed destinations I can tell you that they all are great in their own way and I wouldn't hesitate to return to any of them :) The reality is that people do travel to Hawaii, and lots of them do from all over the World, but they are doing it with an intermediate stop. If there's one thing I learned in recent years is that no route is impossible, be it an attempt at a ULH route such as DXB-PTY, or something as thin as PVD-EDI. EK or QR might be unlikely to serve HNL but not unthinkable.

lugie wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Heres a question, A EU3 airline to HNL or a ME3 first? The answer is still probably going to be netheir !

Well judging by the visitor report linked upthread ( http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/ ) the first logical choice in a direct flight to Europe would be to Germany, since apparently Germans account for the largest share of European visitors (Something I did not expect, tbh)

Humm, everywhere i looked on that site it shows that UK visitors are the largest European group. Not by much tho. Nonetheless, a DY flight to HNL would not shock me one bit. 140K annual European visitors is no small number but it's been at that level for years. The market needs stimulation and a non-stop flight from Europe could easily increase that number.
 
Yazoo
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:30 pm

B777LRF wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


Better music.
Better beaches.
No harassment.
American roads, on which roads traffic laws are obeyed.
And best of all ...
Hawaiian culture.


Better music? Bars will play more or less the same tunes all over the world. Not being subjected to Hawaiian 'music' would be a plus to me
Better beaches? You base this on what, exactly? Tripadvisor doesn't list a single beach in Hawaii in it's top 27, but there are a couple from SE Asia. Most, however, are in S. America, the Caribbean and Europe
No harassment? Well, if you're white I guess you're safe from police brutality whether it's in Hawaii or SE Asia
American roads? Some of the worst I've driven in the civilised world, and obeying traffic laws wasn't exactly what I observed. Besides, most people don't go on beach vacations with an aim to go driving
Hawaiian culture? Is that supposed to be superior to any other island culture?


Im an American of middle-eastern extraction, never experienced any of the "oppression" you or many foreigners that have never stepped foot on this country think we live under. In fact, Having traveled extensively through Europe, I find the US to be a far more welcoming place.
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lugie
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:40 pm

airbazar wrote:
lugie wrote:
Well judging by the visitor report linked upthread ( http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/ ) the first logical choice in a direct flight to Europe would be to Germany, since apparently Germans account for the largest share of European visitors (Something I did not expect, tbh)

Humm, everywhere i looked on that site it shows that UK visitors are the largest European group. Not by much tho. Nonetheless, a DY flight to HNL would not shock me one bit. 140K annual European visitors is no small number but it's been at that level for years. The market needs stimulation and a non-stop flight from Europe could easily increase that number.

Oh wow, I really overread the "second" in second biggest group in the annual report sheet. Makes more sense now, I'm really sorry for the confusion. Nonetheless, the gap is not too large and Germans account for over 30% too, so we'll see.
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superjeff
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?


To start with, everything works in Hawaii, which is not always the case in some other areas of the world. There is an advantage, occasionally, of being in the United States. First world amenities. But I agree, if you're starting off 31 hours away by plane, why would you want to do it?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:26 pm

Humm, everywhere i looked on that site it shows that UK visitors are the largest European group. Not by much tho. Nonetheless, a DY flight to HNL would not shock me one bit. 140K annual European visitors is no small number but it's been at that level for years. The market needs stimulation and a non-stop flight from Europe could easily increase that number.


It's actually ~140k from UK, Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland (so most of Western Europe). So I guess a flight or two from EU3 (or the like of Norwegian, Eurowings, Level, Boost, Joon, and whatever the newest weird name long-haul LCC) is not totally a crazy idea (at least compare to...well, ME3).

On the other hand, going back to my earlier post after looking at the stats:
CI direct TPE-HNL is 2/wk, while TPE-NRT-HNL is daily. Which tells you about where the "true" demand of CI's flight is.

And SIN? 2 hrs flight (if even that) to Southern Thailand (HKT/KBV/USM, etc.), 4.5 hrs flight to MLE, there are also places around Malaysia also. And no need for Hawaiian sunshine either - you have a ton in Singapore already.

For HKG, same thing as Singapore - just tons more leisure destination that are much closer and much cheaper. Doesn't help that HKer need a US visa just to visit Hawaii.


~5k total HKer visit Hawaii the whole year. Or a little bit over 10 PDEW. Yep, definitely need a direct flight.

(On a lesser note, though, I do see HX giving it a shot sometimes after their first round of N. America long-haul expansion to the like of LAX/NYC/YVR).
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:16 pm

As far as "why visit Hawaii", more informative than individual preference as an answer to that question, I suggest the percentage of "repeat visitors"... which Hawaii would be a runaway winner. Some JP tourists have visited Hawaii 60 to 70 times... essentially living in Hawaii for 2 month and 29 days at a time... until CBP tells them "dental work" or "marketing" will not longer mean a visa-free stay.
 
aeromoe
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:05 pm

c933103 wrote:

With multiple foreign LCCs entering the Japan-HNL market and also ANA's introduction of A380 service on the route, it's already seeing huge increase in capacity and the consequential yield suppression. Not sure what will happen if these routes get even more A380.


When did ANA introduce A380s into service??
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WPvsMW
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:14 pm

It hasn't. Not yet delivered to NH. NH plans Honus to HNL no later than March 2019, when Gate 29 at HNL will be A380 ready. Service started before then would deplane/emplane via lower deck jetways.
 
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787Driver
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:41 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Why fly 25 hours to a tropical beach destination, when the same tropical experience can be reached at half the time or less? What does Hawaii have on offer, that you can't find in e.g. Thailand, Malaysia or the Phlips at less than half the price?



Umm where do we start? :-I

Completely different scenery and nature, different culture, different food, different language being spoken, different things to do, different wildlife.. how's that for starters?

I guess you haven't travelled much...
 
ytz
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Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:30 pm

It's easy to slam those criticizing Hawaii as a destination, but proof is in the pudding. Why aren't there operators rushing to set this up? It's obvious the demand isn't there.

It's not that Hawaii doesn't offer enough that's unique. It certainly does. But I would argue cost is a major deterrent. People look at beach destinations for cheap vacations. Hawaii is basically an upper middle class vacation destination at this point. Even for most Americans outside of the West Coast and some of the Midwest. Florida, the Gulf Coast and southern Atlantic coast is cheaper for most Americans. Likewise for Europeans. Hawaii would prove fantastically expensive. And those who can afford it, number too few to make the business case work for more direct flights.
 
c933103
Posts: 1214
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:37 am

aeromoe wrote:
c933103 wrote:

With multiple foreign LCCs entering the Japan-HNL market and also ANA's introduction of A380 service on the route, it's already seeing huge increase in capacity and the consequential yield suppression. Not sure what will happen if these routes get even more A380.


When did ANA introduce A380s into service??

2019
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:54 am

It's easy to slam those criticizing Hawaii as a destination, but proof is in the pudding. Why aren't there operators rushing to set this up? It's obvious the demand isn't there.

It's not that Hawaii doesn't offer enough that's unique. It certainly does. But I would argue cost is a major deterrent. People look at beach destinations for cheap vacations. Hawaii is basically an upper middle class vacation destination at this point. Even for most Americans outside of the West Coast and some of the Midwest. Florida, the Gulf Coast and southern Atlantic coast is cheaper for most Americans. Likewise for Europeans. Hawaii would prove fantastically expensive. And those who can afford it, number too few to make the business case work for more direct flights.


The thing is, nobody is saying Hawaii is a bad destination or anything (it's not). It's more along the line of "what make Hawaii SO special, let say, as a beach destination, that would really enticed people to travel THAT far to visit it". And the answer to that is just, not too much.

And geography does matter. Even in US, the number of flights from airports east of the Rockies to Hawaii is a lot less than the west coast airports (The like of SEA/LAX/SFO). Are those Caribbean resorts necessarily that much better than Hawaii? Not necessarily. But are they closer (thus cheaper to get to)? Definitely. I mean, let say, from LAX, going to Hawaii is 2500mi while going to PUJ (just for example) is 3300mi. But NYC? PUJ is around 1500mi while HNL is 5000mi (For Comparison, JFK<->LHR is 3500mi).

You can do similar math for Japan. NRT-HNL is 3900mi. NRT to, let say, HKT is 3300mi. But for, let say, HKG. HKG-HNL is 5500+mi, HKG-HKT is 1500mi. Where would people rather pick?
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 1561
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Who will get to HNL first: EK or QR?

Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:17 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
It's easy to slam those criticizing Hawaii as a destination, but proof is in the pudding. Why aren't there operators rushing to set this up? It's obvious the demand isn't there.

It's not that Hawaii doesn't offer enough that's unique. It certainly does. But I would argue cost is a major deterrent. People look at beach destinations for cheap vacations. Hawaii is basically an upper middle class vacation destination at this point. Even for most Americans outside of the West Coast and some of the Midwest. Florida, the Gulf Coast and southern Atlantic coast is cheaper for most Americans. Likewise for Europeans. Hawaii would prove fantastically expensive. And those who can afford it, number too few to make the business case work for more direct flights.


The thing is, nobody is saying Hawaii is a bad destination or anything (it's not). It's more along the line of "what make Hawaii SO special, let say, as a beach destination, that would really enticed people to travel THAT far to visit it". And the answer to that is just, not too much.

And geography does matter. Even in US, the number of flights from airports east of the Rockies to Hawaii is a lot less than the west coast airports (The like of SEA/LAX/SFO). Are those Caribbean resorts necessarily that much better than Hawaii? Not necessarily. But are they closer (thus cheaper to get to)? Definitely. I mean, let say, from LAX, going to Hawaii is 2500mi while going to PUJ (just for example) is 3300mi. But NYC? PUJ is around 1500mi while HNL is 5000mi (For Comparison, JFK<->LHR is 3500mi).

You can do similar math for Japan. NRT-HNL is 3900mi. NRT to, let say, HKT is 3300mi. But for, let say, HKG. HKG-HNL is 5500+mi, HKG-HKT is 1500mi. Where would people rather pick?


And going in the reverse direction there are very few flights (save for DFW and IAH/HOU) from cities west of the Mississippi to the Caribbean.

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