9V-SPK
Topic Author
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SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:22 pm

From what I heard, after Las Vagas has been decided by SQ as a new destination (Well I've got no idea why they still don't announce the launch officially), SQ are also considering Tel Aviv and Moscow in the near future. Hopefully Tel Aviv will be launched sooner than Moscow due to market demand and other factors.

Both will be passenger routes, not cargo route that SQ used to operate to Moscow.

Best Regards
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:24 pm

That's good news. However, who would want to go to Tel Aviv (no offense), at the moment anyway.

Thanks for the news SPK!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
9V-SPK
Topic Author
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:25 pm

What's wrong with Tel Aviv??  Laugh out loud

I'm like losing contacts with the outside world, so i've got no idea what's happening there.
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:46 pm

there's nothing wrong with Tel Aviv, it's a wonderful and exciting city!  Love ...  Big grin there could be something wrong with the load factor, however... Crying
 
aviasian
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:51 pm

There happens to be quite a healthy outbound traffic from Israel to Asia and Australia . . . and I am certain SQ is looking at this rather than TLV-SIN traffic only.

And if SQ flies SIN-TLV-MOW, it could then tap on TLV-MOW traffic too . . . there's again quite a fair bit of this traffic available.

All these of course is contingent on SQ getting rights to carry passengers between TLV and MOW in both directions.

What an interesting route it would be!

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
n949wp
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:53 pm

I'm sure the load factor will be good for the segment out of TLV.

'949
 
lumumba
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:53 pm

hi spk .
From where do you get this information from?
Regards.
Patrice
 
9V-SPK
Topic Author
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:55 pm

I got it from a staff that works in Singapore Airlines.

Best Regards
 
El Al 001
Posts: 978
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:07 pm

El Al, which is the only airline at the moment that flies between TLV and the Far-East, makes lots of money on these routes;

5 weekly TLV-BKK 744/772
2 weekly TLV-HKG 772 (might get a 3rd flight soon)
2 weekly TLV-BOM 762
2 weekly TLV-PEK 762
+ cargo services to HKG, Seoul and others with 742F.

The flights runs at 75% load and more.

If SQ decides on going to TLV it wont be able to fly over Arab territory on its way to TLV (just like LY), that would make the flight longer in 2 hours at least, SQ must take it in its considerations.

We are ready for competition! Bring it on...  Smile

El Al- not just for security.

Michael Smile
 
TCA256
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:17 pm

I'm very happy to hear SQ might fly to TLV soon even
if I'm more than skeptical about their coming in Israel!
 
carmy
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:20 pm

Sounds like great news for the airline.

I vaguely remember SIA used to fly to Moscow a number of years ago. Can anyone confirm that?
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:51 pm

There has been an air transport agreement between Singapore and Israel for years, but neither El Al nor SIA ever decided to open a route.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:02 pm

So... SIA will have to fly over Malaysia, India, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Jordan?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
docpepz
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:18 pm

Singapore MUST fly over Malaysia to get anywhere. so it's kinda impossible for SQ to fly to Tel Aviv without flying over Malaysia.

How would our Muslims neighbours take to this? With Singapore being called slave of the United States and Lee Kuan Yew being called mouthpiece of George Bush, and with some extremist islamists likening Singapore to Israel, I don't think they'll take this news very well!

Some call Singapore the Israel of the east.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:48 pm

Oh dear...  Sad  Sad
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
odie
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:50 pm

Planes heading from the north-side of the world most probably must fly over Malaysia. Those flights to South Africa and Australia/NZ doesn't needs to fly over Malaysia though! However, I don't think Malaysia will not allow SIA to overfly Malaysia just because the flight is from Tel Aviv. Remember that most flights from Singapore to the Middle East need to overfly Indoneasia as well! Or they could just squeeze between the tiny Straits of Malacca and then out to the Andaman Sea!

If they do fly to Tel Aviv, I really wonder if they can really market that flight, particularly when SIA offer really cheap seats from Malaysia to almost its entire network! (not many Malaysians would go or should I say can go to Tel Aviv!) And They can't rely on Indoneasian market as well, just probably Australian/NZ, Thai or Philipphines market!
 
Trvlr
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Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:12 am

Well, look at it from the other side of the argument. Sure Malaysia can prevent El Al from flying through its airspace, as the two countries have pretty much zero relations anyway. But would Malaysia really want to risk disrupting relations between it and Singapore by not letting SIA operate this route? Inhibiting SIA, one of Singapore's most prided assets, seems like a very foolish thing to do in my opinion.

I guess it's what happens when governments are slaves to extremists Sad.

Aaron G.
 
docpepz
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:53 am

Odie:

if you take off in the northeast direction from Changi, you MUST fly over Malaysia, regardless of whether you're heading north, south east or west. the flight path will take you past Changi, past Pulau Tekong into the tip of Johor.

and no, i don't think the malaysian govt is slave to extremists. so long as PAS doesn't come into the picture!
 
carmy
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 2:37 am

Trvir: I suspect the Malaysian government can pretty much do what they like because it's their airspace and they have absolute control over that. And if they feel that SIA cannot fly over their airspace en route to Tel Aviv, yes, they can stop SIA from flying over their airspace at the risk of damaging relations. Seriously, although our two countries are so close to each other, relations aren't always rosy. We kind of share a love-hate relationship.
 
avion
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 2:41 am

Why should Malaysia prohibit SIA from flying over their territory? It isnt an israeli airline.
Many EU airlines serve Israel and can still overfly Arabian nations. But i guess the Arabian nations dont do that because then the EU would revoke all overflying rights for Arab Carriers.

tom
 
odie
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 2:51 am

Carmy: I don't think the Malaysian Government is that strict on imposing the ban on flying over their airspace SIN-TLV v.v. Fair enough that the might ban EL AL from flying over Malaysian airspace, but I would had thought that the Malaysian Government would just take it as though it's another scehduled SIA flight! Furthermore, I don't think the Malaysian Government will announce to the whole of Malaysia if SIA's plane carrying passengers to/from Tel Aviv is flying over Malaysia! (hence, some protest from some Muslim extremist, if there is any!) Plus, like I said, Malaysia is not the only country that is involved! The more "strict" countries like those in the Gulf region might not allow SIA to overfly their country.

I think the hate relationship you are talking about is being a competitor! Recently Malaysia just took two of Singapore's Port biggest customer, Evergreen and Maersk Line. Plus other thing such as when some electronic firm decided to scale down their operations at Singapore and shift some of their operations to Malaysia or China eg. Western Digital.

Beside that, I don't think that there is very much hate relationship between the two countries! Singapore is the second major investor in Malaysia, if I am not mistaken. With that, I don't think Malaysia will deny SIA to overfly their planes in Malaysia en route to Tel Aviv! They wouldn't want to lose foreign investors, especially at the current economic situation due to these small matter!
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:21 am

I wouldn't think it would be a wise choice for SIA to fly to Tel Aviv. Look at Delta. Delta only flew for few months and it pulls out.

IF SIA launch TLV, same results as Delta.

 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:32 am

I think you misunderstand me Odie. What I'm saying is that the Malaysian government has complete control over their airspace, and can, if they wish to, stop SIA from flying over their airspace if the airline wishes to fly to Israel. Personally, I've got absolutely no problem with that. It's Malaysian airspace, and the Malaysian government does what it likes.

I mentioned a love-hate relationship, not a hate relationship. As neighbours, we have more than our fair share of quarrels. A number of examples come to mind. For example, a number of years ago, there was the question of the CIQ issue, whether the Malaysians should be allowed to keep their CIQ facilities at Tanjong Pagar when Singapore had already moved theirs to the Woodlands checkpoint. Then more recently, there's the entire tudung or headscarf affair, and the water issue. Dr Mahathir is unhappy with the price Singapore is paying for water, and is demanding more even though the price had been agreed on when he met with our Senior Minister a number of months ago.

Of course, as you correctly mention, we do derive many benefits from each other as well. For example, Singapore is Malaysia's second largest foreign investor, and tens of thousands of Malaysians flock to Singapore each day either to work or study.

The competition between the two countries only arose recently, but this might change as we move towards different industries. Singapore is clearly trying to move towards a very knowledge-based economy with its focus on intelligent sciences and services. We're moving away from labour intensive industries for the simple reason that our labour costs are way too high compared to Malaysia or China. Malaysia is still able to depend on these sorts of industries because of their significantly lower labour costs.

I don't know, but I'm not really sure as to whether Malaysia is concerned about losing Singaporean investors or not. Singaporean companies often become the scapegoat for much that happens. One example that comes to mind is how the Malaysian Transport Minister Ling Liong Sik blamed SIA for MAS's failure to turn in a profit. He said that SIA was under cutting MAS's fares, thus more people chose to fly SIA instead, thus MAS couldn't keep to its original timeline to turn in a profit. In other areas, Singaporeans are blamed for pushing up Johor's cost of living up so high it's even higher than the Capital Territory. The list goes on. But anyway, we really shouldn't be discussing Malaysian-Singapore relationships here. Big grin
 
9V-SPK
Topic Author
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:09 am

By The Way Carmy, SQ used to fly to Moscow. but suspended the route for like 3-4 years ago.

That route was a cargo route only, not a passneger one.



Best Regards
 
GuyBetsy1
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:00 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:42 am

SQ will never operate TVL-SIN on its own, but rather in some form of code-share with El Al. Which will run into problems because even if its on SQ metal, Malaysia can say that no flights on El Al can be operated into its airspace.

Plus, with El Al on codeshare, the level of security normally known on El Al flights will be 'lacking'?

More often than not, I see most likely some form of code share THRU BKK to connect on El Al's flights itself to TLV. That would sound more logical.
 
9V-SVE
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 7:51 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:05 am

Jiml1126, how about looking at CO. Continental still flies there.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:08 am

As a matter of fact, wasn't CO planning to bring back the 2nd daily 772 flight for this summer (on EWR-TLV)?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:25 am

I think for some security reasons, the market for Israel-US can only accomodate 2 airlines. If the security thing wasn't a big issue, the market will get bigger.

About Delta. If Delta thinks that they can compete with CO for New York-Tel Aviv, then why don't they just send their own aircraft instead of code-sharing with El Al.

As for SIA, where will SIA attract its customers to fly with them to Tel Aviv? When you look at the geographical region of Singapore and near by country, what do you notice? They're almost or all Muslim countries.

As Israel is having trouble to build friendly relationships with the Muslims/Arabics, it's unlikely that they're will be many people from Indonesia, Malaysia and near by countries flying to Tel Aviv.

If Singapore's near by countries has the demand for travelling to Israel, then why don't El Al fly to Singapore then? With their toughest security in the world, El Al will certainly beat SIA for Tel Aviv flight.
 
Trvlr
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Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:43 am

Jiml1126: SIA obviously won't be intending to tap the (nonexistent) market between southeast Asian Muslim countries and Israel if they launch flights to TLV. The passengers would come from Australia, China & HK, and Singapore.

Aaron G.

 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:00 am

Carmy: Yeah I agree with you. About SIA ripping MAS profit, I believe in competition! I don't believe that SIA is profitable just because they are selling cheaper seats in Malaysia. Plus, SIA and MAS does not depend heavily on the Malaysian market alone. MAS profitable routes are the Kangaroo route as well as some intra-Asia! MAS alone has cut prices for its flight out from Singapore but that didn't really create much problem with SIA. Well, if you had read another post, something about MASKargo losing a lot of money (I can't remember how much, but it's really a lot of money), that would had contributed significantly to MAS's loss. MASKargo is the second biggest loss contributor to MAS operations!
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:27 am

The passengers would come from Australia, China & HK, and Singapore.

El Al flies to Beijing, Hong Kong, and Bangkok. Passengers can fly to Tel Aviv through these cities.

With El Al's unbeatable security measures, I think people would rather fly El Al then other airlines.

About SIA ripping MAS profit, I believe in competition! I don't believe that SIA is profitable just because they are selling cheaper seats in Malaysia.

MAS was in down shape is because of the mis-management. Malaysian Government is currently investigating the mis-management of MAS.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:02 pm

I see a HUGE market for flights to TLV carrying passengers from the West Coast of the US to Israel via Singapore. Picture it: non-stop A340-500s from LAX to Singapore, a quick 2 hour layover including shopping at Changi and then a non-stop to TLV. Plus, think of the huge South Korean Christian population who would want to visit Jerusalem. Of course, all of this assumes that the merry, macabre band of jehadis in the Middle East don't creat further havoc in that area.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:34 pm

Jaysit:

This is how long an LAX flight to TLV would take using the A340-500s via SIN:

16h45 minutes from LAX to SIN. 2 hour layover in SIN. then 9hours to Israel.

Total time including transit: nearly 28hours, thus making it highly unfeasible.

And those South Korean Christians would rather go through Hong Kong since HKG is only a couple of hours south of Seoul, while Singapore is 6 hours south of Seoul.

The following question is directed to all:

Who does El Al codeshare with? And if the codeshare flight is operated by say, Super Airlines, would the security procedures be exactly the same (ie as stringent) as those flights operated by El Al aircraft?

To digress a bit....

Odie, Evergreen hasn't officially announced its shift to Malaysia. our port and your port are fighting like hell for it. I think in the end they'll end up PAYING Evergreen to stay!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:43 pm

Well, a LAX-TLV flight via Europe takes about 20 hours if you fly to JFK, hang around the airport for a few hours, and then take the JFK-TLV nonstop. More if you have an additional hub in Europe.

Sure, Hong Kong is closer to Seoul than Singapore - but Singapore is a big hub, and SQ discount their flights heavily. Like everyone else, those South Korean Christians like a good bargain when they see one. I've known people who hub at SIN while flying from Japan to the UK - both biz and pleasure.

In any case, I can see SQ heavily discounting fares at first to attract customers on such a route.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Guest

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:55 pm

I see a HUGE market for flights to TLV carrying passengers from the West Coast of the US to Israel via Singapore

Jaysit, although this sounds nice, but I think people would rather fly eastward to Israel through Europe or New York. Because If you fly SIA and transfer through SIN, you need 2 stops.

Also, if you see a HUGE market for SIN-TLV, then A345 would be the wrong choice. SIA's A345 will only carry less than 200, about half of its original A345 seating plan.

Who does El Al codeshare with?
Delta, Sabena, Swissair (latter 2 are gone now),Uzbekistan and some tiny little airlines from eastern europe and CIS.
 
9V-SPK
Topic Author
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:53 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:59 pm

El Al Israel Airlines is indeed one of the safest airline in the world. Also they don't have to face severe competition with other airlines (Example Hong Kong as they are the only operator to Tel Aviv).

However transit passengers from all over the world to Israel. How big is the network for EL AL? Hong Kong, Beijing, Bangkok. How big is it for Singapore Airline? Taipei, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Shanghai, Osaka, Manila...etc. I see a big market for this route, not in Singapore, but in Asia and also Australasia.

Best Regards
 
El Al 001
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:38 am

El Al code-share with:
Delta, Swiss, Thai, SAA, Austrian, Iberia, Uzbekistan, and other few (less important).

Since LY can not fly over Malaysia, so cant SQ on it's way to TLV.
You see, the Israeli transportation minister and LY would never agree for such a thing, the competition must be fair, if LY can not fly to SIN in the same 'short' route SIA can, SIA would'nt get a premission to fly to TLV passing Malaysia. Thats how it works.

And it is very logic. Think about it.

Michael
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:08 am

The fact that El Al has the world's best security measures doesn't necessarily mean that SIA wouldn't fare well on SIN-TLV. If that logic was applied to the rest of the world, then no foreign airlines would be operating to Israel, as everyone would want to fly El Al. SIA's excellent service would almost certainly entice passengers to the new service, and I imagine it would be very competitive with El Al's Asian operations.

Aaron G.
 
airmale
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RE: SQ Deciding Tel Aviv And Moscow In Near Future

Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:47 am

It would be good for Tel Aviv, why did Korean Air quit the market?

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