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Super80Fan
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JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:25 am

Hearing multiple reports that B6 FA's are looking to join a union, specifically the TWU. If they get their wish, I assume the mechanics/ground crew will not be far behind.

My concern comes with unions coming in and B6 as a company. While B6 is stable they are not rolling in the dough. All these unions will cut into their profits, and I fear they might not be able to offer the product/prices they do currently while taking on all these unions.

Thoughts?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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KICT
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:12 am

B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.
 
N757ST
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:55 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Hearing multiple reports that B6 FA's are looking to join a union, specifically the TWU. If they get their wish, I assume the mechanics/ground crew will not be far behind.

My concern comes with unions coming in and B6 as a company. While B6 is stable they are not rolling in the dough. All these unions will cut into their profits, and I fear they might not be able to offer the product/prices they do currently while taking on all these unions.

Thoughts?


Not rolling in dough? Jetblue is one of the most profitable airlines in the country. (By Margin)
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:00 am

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.



Man are you spot on! 100% accurate assessment.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:28 am

N757ST wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Hearing multiple reports that B6 FA's are looking to join a union, specifically the TWU. If they get their wish, I assume the mechanics/ground crew will not be far behind.

My concern comes with unions coming in and B6 as a company. While B6 is stable they are not rolling in the dough. All these unions will cut into their profits, and I fear they might not be able to offer the product/prices they do currently while taking on all these unions.

Thoughts?


Not rolling in dough? Jetblue is one of the most profitable airlines in the country. (By Margin)


Margins are very good.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... rrier.html

Revenue per employee isn't great, however, so even with good margins JetBlue won't be able to offer Southwest or Delta pay and work rules.
 
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KICT
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:40 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Man are you spot on! 100% accurate assessment.

B6's fate was sealed once they lost out to AS regarding VX. B6 is cornered, and they know it. They're about to get "AirTran'd"; by who, is anyone's guess, although I have my suspicions. Hint: it's an airline without a NYC hub.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:34 pm

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


That's what I was thinking. With this happening and their structure like it is they are going to get gobbled up eventually.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:46 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


That's what I was thinking. With this happening and their structure like it is they are going to get gobbled up eventually.


Or, they can buy a bunch of widebody aircraft and start flying internationally. From their main hubs they definitely have enough of a following to start some SE Asia flights and with the A321NEO, they could start up Europe service. It could work and that would be one heck of an expansion.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:44 pm

This campaign started a month ago:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1371799&p=19761489#p19761489

Here is a article that shows the latest letter sent by Jetblue management trying to convince FAs not to go for the union:

http://savvystews.com/2017/09/jetblue-f ... rs-health/

In the end people need to follow their self interests. In this case I belive the FAs interests solidly point them towards unionization.

"But oh no, JetBlue might start hurting for money and get taken over" you say? Who cares, that just means the Pilots and FA's get to leapfrog into FAR higher pay brackets and workrules/contracts with a richer and bigger airline. Who would this hurt? JetBlue management who will find themselves redundant. Luckily the golden parachute contracts they negotiated will protect them, you know.... kind of like the FA's hope to achieve for themselves through a union contract.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:51 pm

KICT wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Man are you spot on! 100% accurate assessment.

B6's fate was sealed once they lost out to AS regarding VX. B6 is cornered, and they know it. They're about to get "AirTran'd"; by who, is anyone's guess, although I have my suspicions. Hint: it's an airline without a NYC hub.



Hopefully the sooner the better! The AirTran FA's are still crying all the way to the bank to deposit their huge Southwest airlines paychecks, and they are taking the long scenic route to the bank since now they have a great deal more time off to enjoy all that extra money thanks to the generous Southwest contract work rules and vacation/sick leave policies.

VX too is going from one of the worse set of work rules and lowest pay in the country, to near the top of the pack since they were lucky enough to see Alaska win the bidding war.

The ones I feel sorry for are Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant since no one will even want them and they will have no choice but to merge with each other. And zero + zero = zero
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:52 pm

To the OP - I think it's just the name of the game. The US economy is steady, the job market is hot, and being an FA is a demanding job. I'm surprised that it has taken this long to finally get the ball rolling on unionization, frankly.

I also think that, in general, airfares should go up as the effects of consolidation become more pronounced, the economy continues to improve, and airlines rationalize capacity (which I think we'll see more and more of as the pilot shortage becomes more apparent). Hopefully the higher fares are more than enough to offset any higher wages.

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


I'm sure many airlines would love to gobble B6 up, but it's hard to see how any airline would be able to acquire B6 without some significant divestitures - thus making such an acquisition less attractive. Yes, the current administration is business friendly, but the recent spate of consolidation has caused some public backlash (deserved or not). For once, the consumer and public perception may actually be more powerful than business interests. If anything, AS and B6 could merge in a few years (say 5-8), which would provide a strong competitor against the Big 4 and keep service standards and airfares in check.

I also disagree that B6 has nowhere to expand. B6's focus cities are in prime locations to expand across the Atlantic or in deep South America, and there are still quite a few domestic cities waiting to be served (particularly in the Midwest). Now, B6 is - for all intents and purposes - locked out of the West. But that's where AS comes in down the line...
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:01 pm

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


This is a statement from that would apply to quite a few airlines right now. At least JetBlue hasn't canceled hundreds of flights (maybe a few but not hundreds) because they can't find enough pilots to fly them. All the lcc and as are Feeling this pressure now.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:25 pm

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.



Really nowhere to expand?
FLL and BOS are expanding well.


As for the FAs it's really 50/50 personally I think they can hold off a union but if they used the same tactics as they did with the pilots it won't work.
Management does have a habit of not delivering on promises while asking the maximum from the employees. Honestly if it does happen, just like the pilots it will be managements fault if they would just do what they promise the union wouldn't have a chance.

I wouldn't worry about the profit part. A contract would be far away, and jetblue is not hurting in the money world.
Unions/employees are not the only thing that drives costs.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:35 pm

KICT wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Man are you spot on! 100% accurate assessment.

B6's fate was sealed once they lost out to AS regarding VX. B6 is cornered, and they know it. They're about to get "AirTran'd"; by who, is anyone's guess, although I have my suspicions. Hint: it's an airline without a NYC hub.


Cornered as much as ALK is. That was a total defense move for ALK. They didn't want jetblue expanding in the west. Yes B6 does not have a massive West operation but does ALK have a massive East? What you are looking at is two airlines that should merge they would be a great combo. I agree jetblue is a target but I could also seem them buying Frontier or Spirit. Everything changed when they dropped organic growth and went for virgin. They still have plenty of room to grow and I wouldn't be shocked to see 321lrs going across the Atlantic.
 
jumbojet
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:34 pm

fastmover wrote:
. Yes B6 does not have a massive West operation and I wouldn't be shocked to see 321lrs going across the Atlantic.


It depends on how you define massive. As per Webster: Large and Heavy or Solid. Nope, that's not B6 on the West Coast, definitely the East Coast.


As for the transatlantic service, why do they even need it? They boast that they code with a lot of airlines so, why even bother?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:25 pm

fastmover wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.



Really nowhere to expand?
FLL and BOS are expanding well.


As for the FAs it's really 50/50 personally I think they can hold off a union but if they used the same tactics as they did with the pilots it won't work.
Management does have a habit of not delivering on promises while asking the maximum from the employees. Honestly if it does happen, just like the pilots it will be managements fault if they would just do what they promise the union wouldn't have a chance.

I wouldn't worry about the profit part. A contract would be far away, and jetblue is not hurting in the money world.
Unions/employees are not the only thing that drives costs.



That's not real growth long term or even medium term.

BOS get another 20-50 departures over time. FLL has no gate space. Maybe another 20-30 flights.

United belchs 20 or 30 flight cuts or expansion per hub depending on season.

That's what B6 is up against. They are shut out from any valuable, new 100+ departure city at this point.

They can start flying TA from JFK and BOS...and basically make themselves a US Air (in CLT) or TWA (in JFK) kind of airline. But they can't address the west coast. In the year 2020, I don't see how a US airline thrives like that.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:38 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
fastmover wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.



Really nowhere to expand?
FLL and BOS are expanding well.


As for the FAs it's really 50/50 personally I think they can hold off a union but if they used the same tactics as they did with the pilots it won't work.
Management does have a habit of not delivering on promises while asking the maximum from the employees. Honestly if it does happen, just like the pilots it will be managements fault if they would just do what they promise the union wouldn't have a chance.

I wouldn't worry about the profit part. A contract would be far away, and jetblue is not hurting in the money world.
Unions/employees are not the only thing that drives costs.



That's not real growth long term or even medium term.

BOS get another 20-50 departures over time. FLL has no gate space. Maybe another 20-30 flights.

United belchs 20 or 30 flight cuts or expansion per hub depending on season.

That's what B6 is up against. They are shut out from any valuable, new 100+ departure city at this point.

They can start flying TA from JFK and BOS...and basically make themselves a US Air (in CLT) or TWA (in JFK) kind of airline. But they can't address the west coast. In the year 2020, I don't see how a US airline thrives like that.



I guess they better sell the company than.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:41 pm

jumbojet wrote:
fastmover wrote:
. Yes B6 does not have a massive West operation and I wouldn't be shocked to see 321lrs going across the Atlantic.


It depends on how you define massive. As per Webster: Large and Heavy or Solid. Nope, that's not B6 on the West Coast, definitely the East Coast.


As for the transatlantic service, why do they even need it? They boast that they code with a lot of airlines so, why even bother?



Like I said not a large massive or solid west operation (massive)

The reason to do transatlantic would be to make money. If they think they can make more there vs code or other places in the US that is where they will go, the CFO said as much in one of the q reports.
 
richierich
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:29 pm

People on this site have been predicting the end of JetBlue since it was a two-aircraft operation in 2000 and airliners.net was actually fun and informative. Obviously if you are an investor of B6, then a FA union is not a good thing - I don't think unions are in general - but it is hardly the doom and gloom that some people on here point to. Unless there is an as-yet unannounced buyout or merger planned, and there is no reason to think there is, JetBlue isn't going anywhere. They have an extremely strong east coast presence, strong brand loyalty, and they still offer a better domestic product than any of the legacy majors. They fly to more places out of BOS than any other airline, and are the biggest airline from NYC to Florida and the Caribbean. Oh, and while Mint is still a niche product, it is doing a decent job of wiping the floor of the competition. The most negative thing about JetBlue at the moment is what impact Irma and Maria will have had on the 3rd Quarter earnings...
None shall pass!!!!
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:02 pm

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Varsity1
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:18 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:lol:

Yeah that one on one really gives you the bargaining power. :roll:
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:52 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.



Hmmm for the price of about 30 dollars twice a month they can have the full force of the railroad labor act backing them up and a federally enforceable contract with a binding 3rd party mediation process. Oh and those dues don't even get collected until after said contract is voted in.

Naww too expensive, they should just trust the board of directors whos fiduciary job is to squeeze as much profit out of the airline as possible for stock holders. Better to just trust their good will, I mean enough crumbs should trickle on down right? (lol)
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:52 pm

The FAs at JetBlue have signed more than the amount of cards needed to initiate a election and bring TWU onto the property as their representative. JetBlue FA's and TWU representatives are in Washington D.C. today turning in the cards. If all goes well, this will be the biggest group of U.S. FA's to unionize in years. Only Delta will be left as a major carrier that is not unionized (though I hear their campaign is picking up steam).


I am pleased to announce the Transport Workers Union of America, AFL-CIO (TWU) has filed for a representational election with the National Mediation Board (NMB) on behalf of the JetBlue Airways Inflight Crewmembers. You are one step closer to your goal of uniting and establishing your voice in your workplace and protecting and advancing your livelihoods.
This historic moment was made possible by the dedication of your co-workers who are serving as your committed team of in-house, rank and file activists. Through their efforts and your overwhelming support, you and your team have signed a sufficient number of cards needed to file for an election, so that the Inflight Crewmembers can begin to take control of their collective future. Your organizing team has done an exceptional job communicating with your workgroup and reaching out to the entire community of JetBlue Inflight Crewmembers. I congratulate them on their success.NY Daily News - 12-06-2017

Your next step, in order to establish a level playing field and secure a seat at the bargaining table to negotiate your first contract, is to vote “Yes!” for representation by the TWU. You will be hearing from us as we move through the process of certifying an election with the NMB. The activists throughout the system, who have gotten your workgroup to this point, will also be reaching out to you to confirm you received your voting instructions from the NMB. In preparation for the upcoming election, please take the time to update the mailing address you have on file with JetBlue.

On behalf of the leadership team of the TWU, I thank you for your continued commitment. Thank you for choosing to join our TWU family. Unity with each other is the driving force for an election victory. And with a unified work group, you will succeed in securing your first contract after the election.

United! Invincible!

John Samuelsen
International President
Transport Workers Union of America, AFL-CIO


Hopefully things go smoothly. JetBlue has dragged its feet with the pilots and their first contract, but even so JetBlue still gave them a 8% pay raise last year outside of contract negotiations. The FAs, unlike the pilots, won't have to pay any dues until the first contract is negotiated and voted in, so they won't be out anything but will be on their way to I would think getting at least as good as Alaska has as far as pay and work rules.

I hope the flying public support their favorite group of U.S. Flight Attendants as they try to secure a better work life for themselves!
 
sccutler
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:50 pm

I have often said (and I didn't invent it) that a company gets the union it deserves. Ultimately, while some unions, at some times, can be destructive and harm the best interests of their "host" (the company for whom the rank-and-file work), as was the case with the International Association of Machinists and Eastern Airlines, in a properly-run company, the relationship between the company and the represented workers need not be hostile all the time, and it should not be.

The airline which has, by far, been the most consistently profitable for the longest time has also had among the highest, if not the highest, rates of representation of any airline in the industry, and yet they are known for generally cordial labor-management relations.

Respect and a proper recognition of the mutual best interests of the company, the shareholders and the workers whose labor and efforts make the company possible will typically work well.

---

As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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STT757
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:14 pm

sccutler wrote:
As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.


I think the B6 employees thinks it's inevitable that they merge or are acquired, which makes unionization their best bet for a fair deal. I think in a way the employees are hoping to be acquired by an airline like WN, FL employees are probably making out like bandits compared to their compensation and benefits offered under FL. I just don't see B6 being able to match for their employees what the competition, WN, offers.

The only option for B6 to avoid a merger would be to change their model to match NK, F9, G4 etc..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:33 pm

STT757 wrote:
sccutler wrote:
As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.


I think the B6 employees thinks it's inevitable that they merge or are acquired, which makes unionization their best bet for a fair deal. I think in a way the employees are hoping to be acquired by an airline like WN, FL employees are probably making out like bandits compared to their compensation and benefits offered under FL. I just don't see B6 being able to match for their employees what the competition, WN, offers.

The only option for B6 to avoid a merger would be to change their model to match NK, F9, G4 etc..



Merging with any of the 5 airlines currently bigger then JetBlue would indeed be a big step up as far as pay/workrules.

I don't think B6 has the option to "downgrade" to the NK,F9,etc model anymore. Those airlines have labor costs that are far lower then JetBlue, and with JetBlue having unionized pilots and soon to be unionized FAs, they can no longer drop pay like a rock to be competitive with NK,F9 etc. Thats not even touching how most of the ULCC's airports, customer service, and ramp are all outsourced for next to nothing while JetBlue is ALL in house (even 2.5k+ people in customer service in salt lake city are in house i.e. much more expensive then the outsourcing to the Philippines F9 has).

So they really are kind of stuck in the middle of the road and yes I think it is a long shot that they will continue on as a independent organic-growth only airline. The company has been pushing back hard against unionizing efforts, but its a done deal at this point. This will now make them slightly more expensive to acquire but its absolutely necessary to ensure the FAs get a fair shake when the most likely scenario plays out in a few years: Acquisition by one of the big four, or merger with #5, Alaska.
 
COSPN
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Good luck hope they can vote in a good contract soon....

There are only a few ways for workers to improve their place in life..

1. Education.
2. Join military
3. Start a business
4. Join a union

Any others ?? Lottery and marry a rich person don’t count I think ...
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:47 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
STT757 wrote:
sccutler wrote:
As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.


I think the B6 employees thinks it's inevitable that they merge or are acquired, which makes unionization their best bet for a fair deal. I think in a way the employees are hoping to be acquired by an airline like WN, FL employees are probably making out like bandits compared to their compensation and benefits offered under FL. I just don't see B6 being able to match for their employees what the competition, WN, offers.

The only option for B6 to avoid a merger would be to change their model to match NK, F9, G4 etc..



Merging with any of the 5 airlines currently bigger then JetBlue would indeed be a big step up as far as pay/workrules.

I don't think B6 has the option to "downgrade" to the NK,F9,etc model anymore. Those airlines have labor costs that are far lower then JetBlue, and with JetBlue having unionized pilots and soon to be unionized FAs, they can no longer drop pay like a rock to be competitive with NK,F9 etc. Thats not even touching how most of the ULCC's airports, customer service, and ramp are all outsourced for next to nothing while JetBlue is ALL in house (even 2.5k+ people in customer service in salt lake city are in house i.e. much more expensive then the outsourcing to the Philippines F9 has).

So they really are kind of stuck in the middle of the road and yes I think it is a long shot that they will continue on as a independent organic-growth only airline. The company has been pushing back hard against unionizing efforts, but its a done deal at this point. This will now make them slightly more expensive to acquire but its absolutely necessary to ensure the FAs get a fair shake when the most likely scenario plays out in a few years: Acquisition by one of the big four, or merger with #5, Alaska.


They make great profit and got better yields than delta, why do they need to be acquired or merged?

And after the recent as pilot ruling, there is no one on b6 pilot forum who want any part of as leadership.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:52 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
STT757 wrote:
sccutler wrote:
As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.


I think the B6 employees thinks it's inevitable that they merge or are acquired, which makes unionization their best bet for a fair deal. I think in a way the employees are hoping to be acquired by an airline like WN, FL employees are probably making out like bandits compared to their compensation and benefits offered under FL. I just don't see B6 being able to match for their employees what the competition, WN, offers.

The only option for B6 to avoid a merger would be to change their model to match NK, F9, G4 etc..



Merging with any of the 5 airlines currently bigger then JetBlue would indeed be a big step up as far as pay/workrules.

I don't think B6 has the option to "downgrade" to the NK,F9,etc model anymore. Those airlines have labor costs that are far lower then JetBlue, and with JetBlue having unionized pilots and soon to be unionized FAs, they can no longer drop pay like a rock to be competitive with NK,F9 etc. Thats not even touching how most of the ULCC's airports, customer service, and ramp are all outsourced for next to nothing while JetBlue is ALL in house (even 2.5k+ people in customer service in salt lake city are in house i.e. much more expensive then the outsourcing to the Philippines F9 has).

So they really are kind of stuck in the middle of the road and yes I think it is a long shot that they will continue on as a independent organic-growth only airline. The company has been pushing back hard against unionizing efforts, but its a done deal at this point. This will now make them slightly more expensive to acquire but its absolutely necessary to ensure the FAs get a fair shake when the most likely scenario plays out in a few years: Acquisition by one of the big four, or merger with #5, Alaska.




It’s a done deal?

It took the pilots 3 votes to get the union in and the company really helped out ALPA with the stuff they did on the last vote. It’s far from a done deal, Hillary winning was also a done deal.

As for people thinking that jetblue employees just want to be bought by any airline that is simply not true.
Yes there are a few but most want jetblue to stay jetblue but we need management to follow through as well.
We will see but the FAs are a very unpredictable group.
 
fastmover
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:00 pm

sccutler wrote:
I have often said (and I didn't invent it) that a company gets the union it deserves. Ultimately, while some unions, at some times, can be destructive and harm the best interests of their "host" (the company for whom the rank-and-file work), as was the case with the International Association of Machinists and Eastern Airlines, in a properly-run company, the relationship between the company and the represented workers need not be hostile all the time, and it should not be.

The airline which has, by far, been the most consistently profitable for the longest time has also had among the highest, if not the highest, rates of representation of any airline in the industry, and yet they are known for generally cordial labor-management relations.

Respect and a proper recognition of the mutual best interests of the company, the shareholders and the workers whose labor and efforts make the company possible will typically work well.

---

As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.



I don’t see why JetBlue's days as an independent carrier are numbered.
It’s not like the company is in bad financial shape. It’s actually in the best shape ever with some of the highest margins in the industry. You guys act like we are AirTran and just kind of limping along. There are plenty of places to grow. If you want an airline that might have some issues go look at ALK what is their next move?

One day the most common sense merger route wise will be ALK and JBU but that’s not close to happening.

As for now the reports of JetBlue’s death are greatly exaggerated.
 
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jnev3289
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:05 pm

fastmover wrote:
sccutler wrote:
I have often said (and I didn't invent it) that a company gets the union it deserves. Ultimately, while some unions, at some times, can be destructive and harm the best interests of their "host" (the company for whom the rank-and-file work), as was the case with the International Association of Machinists and Eastern Airlines, in a properly-run company, the relationship between the company and the represented workers need not be hostile all the time, and it should not be.

The airline which has, by far, been the most consistently profitable for the longest time has also had among the highest, if not the highest, rates of representation of any airline in the industry, and yet they are known for generally cordial labor-management relations.

Respect and a proper recognition of the mutual best interests of the company, the shareholders and the workers whose labor and efforts make the company possible will typically work well.

---

As for JetBlue, their days as an independent carrier are inevitably numbered, and while fan boys will be disappointed to lose their cool and edgy little airline (which never was all that cool or edgy, anyway), the team members at JetBlue will gain stability and in all likelihood, better compensation.



I don’t see why JetBlue's days as an independent carrier are numbered.
It’s not like the company is in bad financial shape. It’s actually in the best shape ever with some of the highest margins in the industry. You guys act like we are AirTran and just kind of limping along. There are plenty of places to grow. If you want an airline that might have some issues go look at ALK what is their next move?

One day the most common sense merger route wise will be ALK and JBU but that’s not close to happening.

As for now the reports of JetBlue’s death are greatly exaggerated.

JetBlue doesn't fit into their box of a gigantic, critical mass airline or a ULCC carrier. It's too hard to rationalize things aren't black and white for some people.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 1516
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:09 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.

Despite B6 management's 'doom and gloom' about unionization, it actually can simplify a lot of things within the company.
 
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Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:32 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:checkmark: 100% spot on! And I tell my coworkers the same thing! If you need a union constantly, you’re probably not good at what you do.

Joining a union is one of the worst things you can do in this day and age, especially since if you step out of line with some unions, they’ll do some pretty scary stuff to you. Their day in the sun has passed.

It’s a good thing too. My union is run by imbeciles. Union No!

Dominion301 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.


I read this comment imitating Bernie Sanders. Thanks for the script :biggrin:
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
Dominion301
Posts: 1516
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:checkmark: 100% spot on! And I tell my coworkers the same thing! If you need a union constantly, you’re probably not good at what you do.

Joining a union is one of the worst things you can do in this day and age, especially since if you step out of line with some unions, they’ll do some pretty scary stuff to you. Their day in the sun has passed.

It’s a good thing too. My union is run by imbeciles. Union No!

Dominion301 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.


I read this comment imitating Bernie Sanders. Thanks for the script :biggrin:


So I guess all those unionized pilots would be better off without their union representation. Stupid me. :roll: Script eh, lol.

If your union is run by such "imbeciles", why don't you campaign to decertify or have your employee group vote to change unions or what's the old anti-union champion saying 'if you don't like working here, you're free to leave'?
Last edited by Dominion301 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:53 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:checkmark: 100% spot on! And I tell my coworkers the same thing! If you need a union constantly, you’re probably not good at what you do.

Joining a union is one of the worst things you can do in this day and age, especially since if you step out of line with some unions, they’ll do some pretty scary stuff to you. Their day in the sun has passed.

It’s a good thing too. My union is run by imbeciles. Union No!

Dominion301 wrote:

Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.


I read this comment imitating Bernie Sanders. Thanks for the script :biggrin:


So I guess all those unionized pilots would be better off without their union representation. Stupid me. :roll:

If your union is run by such "imbeciles", why don't you campaign to decertify or what's the old anti-union saying 'if you don't like working here, you're free to leave'?


Oh I’m sorry, I don’t work for the union. I’ll keep my job, thanks.

Funny thing is, I have a better relationship with management than I do with my genius reps.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:59 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:checkmark: 100% spot on! And I tell my coworkers the same thing! If you need a union constantly, you’re probably not good at what you do.

Joining a union is one of the worst things you can do in this day and age, especially since if you step out of line with some unions, they’ll do some pretty scary stuff to you. Their day in the sun has passed.

It’s a good thing too. My union is run by imbeciles. Union No!

Dominion301 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.


I read this comment imitating Bernie Sanders. Thanks for the script :biggrin:


I’m hoping you’re a direct employed, hourly paid employee of one of the US air carriers. Otherwise, in this case, your opinion isn’t much here.

I’m 100% great at my job and 100% in need of a union... as are the other 10’s of thousands of unionized airline pilots.

The Jetblue FA’s have some of the lowest QOL I’ve seen in the industry. They most likely don’t even know it. When a company props a employee group full of ‘juice’ there’s a reason. They don’t want you questioning why things are the way they are. ‘Hey I work 20 days a month and can’t trade any trips to allow me a personal life but our planes have fun names!’

Nope. Cool names and things that rhyme with ‘Blue’ doesn’t cut it any longer. Get some legally binding work rules in place that at least have been approved (voted in favor) by a majority of the employee group.
 
geologyrocks
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:03 pm

Like everything else, the loudest opinions on either side will always try to drown out where I believe the majority rest: in the middle. For the record, I'm a dues paying member. I don't agree with everything the union does but it does help in other situations where I feel you might be otherwise screwed.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:05 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.

Despite B6 management's 'doom and gloom' about unionization, it actually can simplify a lot of things within the company.


"Corporate 'Murica" has paid my bills and then some. Along with millions of others. You can hate corporations if you want, but personally, I like having a job and like having an income even more. If you have a job, somewhere you most likely have a corporation to thank for it. Don't like the job you have? Go to school (or educate yourself) and get another one or start your own business. The job market is as good as it's been in over a decade.

As a good employee who works my arse off and has an employer that recognizes my efforts, why in the hell would I ever want a Union? That would immediately negate my bargaining power with management (I've negotiated two major pay increases in the last few years) and cost me money. How is that beneficial? It would likely also protect those who don't work as hard as me*. There's a good reason union membership is down over 75% in the US in the last 35 years. It's unfortunate, there was a time when unions provided a well trained and disciplined employee. Unfortunately, they became just as greedy as the Corporations in their race to the bottom. Now instead of protecting jobs, they're getting them outsourced to other companies or to automation at a record rate.

*Note: At my company this isn't a real issue, if you're lazy, uneducated or incompetent, you wouldn't have a job here anyway. From my past experience, the same can't always be said for front line airline jobs.

I'm not vilifying Unions. If I were one of the lazy or incompetent workers, I'd love a union, but that isn't me. I've been a union member, and it was the worst job I ever had. Everyone hated the company and hated the union. Nowadays the tech I sell replaces a lot of union jobs, so I suppose I should be thankful for unions. Things that drive up the cost of labor increase demand for our products.

Thanks for reviving a months old post.
Last edited by RDUDDJI on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:07 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

...if you're one of the lazy and incompetent. Anyone else would be an ignorant fool to vote in favor of a union. You'd be giving away your voice for a piece of your check.


:checkmark: 100% spot on! And I tell my coworkers the same thing! If you need a union constantly, you’re probably not good at what you do.

Joining a union is one of the worst things you can do in this day and age, especially since if you step out of line with some unions, they’ll do some pretty scary stuff to you. Their day in the sun has passed.

It’s a good thing too. My union is run by imbeciles. Union No!

Dominion301 wrote:

Corporate 'merica has taught you well into their brainwashing about vilifying unions and their 'trickle down economics'...there's a reason why it's called 'trickle' as the raging ocean of cash at the top only leaves a trickle at the bottom.

If the 99% of Americans want to ever get back a piece of the pie from the 1% oligarchs they need to go on a mass unionization drive across all sectors of the economy, but all their successful government lobbying ensures that won't be happening anytime soon.


I read this comment imitating Bernie Sanders. Thanks for the script :biggrin:


I’m hoping you’re a direct employed, hourly paid employee of one of the US air carriers. Otherwise, in this case, your opinion isn’t much here.

I’m 100% great at my job and 100% in need of a union... as are the other 10’s of thousands of unionized airline pilots.

The Jetblue FA’s have some of the lowest QOL I’ve seen in the industry. They most likely don’t even know it. When a company props a employee group full of ‘juice’ there’s a reason. They don’t want you questioning why things are the way they are. ‘Hey I work 20 days a month and can’t trade any trips to allow me a personal life but our planes have fun names!’

Nope. Cool names and things that rhyme with ‘Blue’ doesn’t cut it any longer. Get some legally binding work rules in place that at least have been approved (voted in favor) by a majority of the employee group.


Oh believe me, I AM. And even if I weren’t, I have as much right to an opinion.

Why would I be saying these things if I weren’t? I just refuse to be part of the collective. What’s so hard for union junkies to get about that?
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:09 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Only Delta will be left as a major carrier that is not unionized (though I hear their campaign is picking up steam).


Of course there is no source for this "fake news". The fact is, interest is declining as pmNW FAs leave the company. If I were a union member (AFA?), I'd be extremely upset about how much money my union has wasted on trying to unionize DL FAs.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Abeam79
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 pm

KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 1516
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:31 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.


That's exactly the point I was trying to make is that an employee group unionizing does not suddenly spell doom and gloom for the corporation in spite of management rhetoric, and more often than not improves the overall performance of the company.

Of course there's lots of non-unionized, well-run and well paying even for the lower paying jobs in a corporation out there. However, collectively across the US, the historical stats and current trends don't lie. There is a direct correlation in the US (and to a lesser extent elsewhere) between the decline of the and successful vilification of unions campaign (see the 'unions are great if you're lazy' comments above) and the share of the pie the 99% receive vs. the 1%.

How come the unions = greedy, lazy naysayers always conveniently don't mention unions = health & safety and workplace protections.
 
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Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:00 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.


How come the unions = greedy, lazy naysayers always conveniently don't mention unions = health & safety and workplace protections.


Because to not work in a safe, healthy environment is ILLEGAL now. What's your point?

Plus they are greedy anyway. They also have pretty deep political motivations too!
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
Abeam79
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:02 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.


That's exactly the point I was trying to make is that an employee group unionizing does not suddenly spell doom and gloom for the corporation in spite of management rhetoric, and more often than not improves the overall performance of the company.

Of course there's lots of non-unionized, well-run and well paying even for the lower paying jobs in a corporation out there. However, collectively across the US, the historical stats and current trends don't lie. There is a direct correlation in the US (and to a lesser extent elsewhere) between the decline of the and successful vilification of unions campaign (see the 'unions are great if you're lazy' comments above) and the share of the pie the 99% receive vs. the 1%.

How come the unions = greedy, lazy naysayers always conveniently don't mention unions = health & safety and workplace protections.


Agree 100%!
 
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FBWFTW
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:09 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:59 pm

As someone who has seen first hand the dirty, underhanded LIES along with all the breaking of labor law that corporations do to keep their employees from forming unions, I’ll ask the naysayers-WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Oh right, they’re afraid of their employees having a VOICE which the B6 FA’s and ground guys currently do NOT have. Hopefully B6 will not sink to this level here:
Read this:
https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.asp ... 4582282b52
Realize that stuff like this happens DAILY around the country and then tell me you’re STILL on the side of the corporations. If you are at that point, you’re either blind, not very bright OR making 6 figures in an office with a view.
Believe in “this day and age” joining a union is one of the only protections you have against an employer who wants a “direct relationship” with you so they can tell you “NO!” directly and there’s not a bloody thing you can do about it.
Airbus lover and unashamed avgeek
Flown on 721/2, 732/5, 741, 752, 762/3ER, L1011, DC8, DC9/10, MD88, E75/90, A320/21, A332/3
Fav Plane(s): A330-243/L1011
Fav Airlines: B6/HA/VX
Favorite engine(s): RR/PW
http://flightdiary.net/FBWFTW/flights/date/asc
 
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STT757
Posts: 13657
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Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:03 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.


If you live on the West coast, B6 is not a viable choice for travel, and throw in the Mid-West, Southeast, Southwest etc. They're a Northeast carrier with large operations in Florida. Southwest has been able to grow out of their Southwest roots, but there's no other place for B6 to grow outside the Northeast and Florida.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:48 pm

STT757 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
KICT wrote:
B6 is a prime takeover target with nowhere to expand paying substandard wages compared to competitors. This is a wise move for the rank and file.


"nowhere to expand"???!! domestically alone. STL/CMH/MKE/CVG/SAT/PNS/GSO/ORF/MEM/MGM etc
Internationally with current A320's just to central America which is on the works: BZE/PTO/SAL/MGA/TGU/RTB/FRS
Then South America with coming A320/321NEO's and very possible Widebodies in the future EZE/SCL/GRU/GIG/BSB/POA/REC/FOR/LPB/GEO/ASU
and expansion from FLL current south America routes from JFK/BOS focus cities LIM/UIO/BOG/MDE/SJO
Then the hot rumored Europe from JFK/BOS alone LON/DUB/BHX/AMS/ORY/BCN/CMN/KEF/ORK/GLA/OSL/BRU/BFS
This can all be easily accomplished organically, and be massively increasing their revenue portfolio and most of these routes are premium heavy, especially Europe, which can be deployed with the already hugely successful mint. B6 just needs to do build a bolder spine and get a serious order book with Airbus/Bombardier etc and get some serious airframes orders since they are awash in cash and it will pay off in massive yields and dividends down the road.

Please re think more objectively before you submit to ones own M&A love affair one may have.
B6 is at the height of financial prowess then ever in their history. They will be fine unionized or not. Some of the most profitable airlines are most heavily unionized, ie AS/WN/HA are very profitable and also heavily unionized.


If you live on the West coast, B6 is not a viable choice for travel, and throw in the Mid-West, Southeast, Southwest etc. They're a Northeast carrier with large operations in Florida. Southwest has been able to grow out of their Southwest roots, but there's no other place for B6 to grow outside the Northeast and Florida.


You could say the same about AS and east coast fliers. AS isn't viable for most east coast travelers if you are not going to the west coast.

This is precisely why AS and B6 should merge and create the fifth largest airline in the US. A combined carrier would allow it to compete more effectively with the "big 4" and provide a truly nationwide airline. The combined AS/B6 could then focus on boosting their presence in the central portion of the country, creating a hub somewhere in the midwest or Texas.

I doubt any of the big 4 could acquire B6 without antitrust concerns (though with the recent announcement of Disney/21st Century Fox merging, one has to wonder if antitrust laws are just pieces of paper).
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:29 pm

FBWFTW wrote:
As someone who has seen first hand the dirty, underhanded LIES along with all the breaking of labor law that corporations do to keep their employees from forming unions, I’ll ask the naysayers-WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Oh right, they’re afraid of their employees having a VOICE which the B6 FA’s and ground guys currently do NOT have. Hopefully B6 will not sink to this level here:
Read this:
https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.asp ... 4582282b52
Realize that stuff like this happens DAILY around the country and then tell me you’re STILL on the side of the corporations. If you are at that point, you’re either blind, not very bright OR making 6 figures in an office with a view.
Believe in “this day and age” joining a union is one of the only protections you have against an employer who wants a “direct relationship” with you so they can tell you “NO!” directly and there’s not a bloody thing you can do about it.


Do you prefer paying a union to tell you "NO!"?

Unions can say anything they want, corporations are controlled by rule of law. Unions can promise anything they like, but in reality, they'll have to negotiate with the company. Like I said, I've been on both sides. The employees will have no voice once they vote their rights away to a bunch of greedy union thugs. Said thugs will then screw over their members every chance they get to make another $.

Ejemplo: I was involved in a termination review years ago where a bad employee (who was hated by his peers) was on his last step towards being fired. He was found sitting in the boarding area watching tv (twice) while he was supposed to be working on the ramp. This was common behavior and something his union peers reported to management because they were tired of carrying his slack. During his termination review, the union offered to give away thousands of $ of overtime pay as payment for grievances in return for letting him keep his job. The company took the deal. Talk about a bad deal for everyone, the union just screwed over it's good employees (the ones with legitimate grievances), to keep one dues paying POS member around and the company just let a POS employee keep their job to save some $, much to the chagrin of his peers. But the story didn't end there: A few weeks later this same guy ran a bag cart into a widebody that did so much damage (holes that you could see through) the aircraft was out of service for over a month.

A Union will promise the B6 FAs the world, but the fact is, their track record is of destroying jobs (just look at the manufacturing industry), not making people rich. Meanwhile some Union management just chartered a jet to go to the superbowl (this actually happened in our union). That seems like a really good use of union dues...
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
jfern022
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:44 pm

Some AFA reps are telling DL new-hire FA's they'll be able to walk into the GO here in Atlanta and get a huge salary increase, without giving anything up. I'm sure they will keep fighting for you!! :lol:
 
User avatar
FBWFTW
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:09 pm

Re: JetBlue and FA Union

Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:42 am

RDUDDJI wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
As someone who has seen first hand the dirty, underhanded LIES along with all the breaking of labor law that corporations do to keep their employees from forming unions, I’ll ask the naysayers-WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Oh right, they’re afraid of their employees having a VOICE which the B6 FA’s and ground guys currently do NOT have. Hopefully B6 will not sink to this level here:
Read this:
https://apps.nlrb.gov/link/document.asp ... 4582282b52
Realize that stuff like this happens DAILY around the country and then tell me you’re STILL on the side of the corporations. If you are at that point, you’re either blind, not very bright OR making 6 figures in an office with a view.
Believe in “this day and age” joining a union is one of the only protections you have against an employer who wants a “direct relationship” with you so they can tell you “NO!” directly and there’s not a bloody thing you can do about it.


Do you prefer paying a union to tell you "NO!"? (Another one crying about the dues... Good lord the think arbitration and lawyers are free)

Unions can say anything they want (NOT TRUE-see NLRA section 8B), corporations are controlled by rule of law (AND THEY BEND THOSE LAWS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AND HAVE THE $$$$ TO DO IT.) Unions can promise anything they like (also NOT true see above) but in reality, they'll have to negotiate with the company (VERY TRUE-that’s the WHOLE POINT of organizing, to get to negotiations and a fair contract with the company-what’s the issue with that hmm?) Like I said, I've been on both sides (clearly not in a long time) The employees will have A COLLECTIVE voice once they vote to unionize Said thugs will then screw over their members every chance they get to make another $. (you’re WAY out of line here-maybe your shi**y union leadership did some bad stuff-but don’t generalize)


Ejemplo: I was involved in a termination review years ago where a bad employee (who was hated by his peers) was on his last step towards being fired. He was found sitting in the boarding area watching tv (twice) while he was supposed to be working on the ramp. This was common behavior and something his RAT COWORKERS reported to management INSTEAD OF THEIR SHOP STEWARD WHO WOULD HAVE REAMED THE GUY A NEW ONE because they were tired of carrying his slack. During his termination review, the union offered to give away thousands of $ of overtime pay as payment for grievances in return for letting him keep his job(this part is unacceptable and DOES NOT happen in my union) The company took the deal. Talk about a bad deal for everyone, the union just screwed over it's good employees (the ones with legitimate grievances), to keep one dues paying POS member around and the company just let a POS employee keep their job to save some $, much to the chagrin of his peers. But the story didn't end there: A few weeks later this same guy ran a bag cart into a widebody that did so much damage (holes that you could see through) the aircraft was out of service for over a month.

A Union will promise the B6 FAs the world (unions can’t promise anything but negotiations and there is no “starting from scratch” on the company’s side either-read the law) but the fact is, their track record is of destroying jobs (just look at the manufacturing industry where GENERAL F*****G MOTORS PROPOSED TO THE UNION THAT THEY WOULD PAY PEOPLE $$$ AND BENEFITS NOT TO WORK-WHAT UNION SAYS NO TO THAT??!?), not making people rich (you CLEARLY have never met a Teamster from New England) Meanwhile some Union management just chartered a jet to go to the superbowl (this actually happened in our union-ALSO unacceptable and they should’ve been voted or dragged out-don’t give excuses, why didn’t YOU run for office then?) That seems like a really good use of union dues is to pay people to advocate for you.


You obviously didn’t read the case, you really should. I also fixed your post up a little bit.
BTW-so you’re calling me a thug? I may resemble that remark when corporations screw over workers who are looking for a collective voice. You’re also WRONG in generalizing ALL unions because I’ll legit bet you a trip to an A320 simulator that not all unions are like this (cause they’re NOT.) If you’re talking about TWU, then say so. Don’t generalize all unions.
You are clearly a bitter bitter man against unions albeit for some valid reasons-personally, I’d Like to show a few of your union’s “leaders” what a “union thug” really is) and I would like to invite you (not kidding) to one of MY union meetings to see what a GOOD union does for its members. A union is only as good as it’s members make it-clearly those in charge of your union should’ve been tossed out and unless you ran for office or DID something about it (and I don’t mean going to management) you stood idly by which the B6 FA’s aren’t doing right now-they’re organizing and an organized workforce makes a company TREMBLE IN FEAR! But WHY??? People want to work there, they merely want a legally binding set of work rules and wages along with grievance machinery in the event of a problem-so why are the companies so afraid???
Airbus lover and unashamed avgeek
Flown on 721/2, 732/5, 741, 752, 762/3ER, L1011, DC8, DC9/10, MD88, E75/90, A320/21, A332/3
Fav Plane(s): A330-243/L1011
Fav Airlines: B6/HA/VX
Favorite engine(s): RR/PW
http://flightdiary.net/FBWFTW/flights/date/asc

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