F27500
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:27 am

Rhodylee wrote:
Looks like RIAC did not include Delta in their PVD market share pie chart ?



Ooooh ... there's pie ??!
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:15 pm

uconn99 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
uconn99 wrote:
Hartford Bradley International (BDL) July 2017 Passenger Stats:

July 2017 Total Passengers by Airline

Southwest- 145,142
American- 143,190
Delta- 117,395
jetBlue- 74,958
United- 63,419
Spirit- 24,657
Aer Lingus- 9,702
Air Canada- 6,636
Norwegian- 3,906
oneJet- 356


Thanks for sharing these numbers. I'd love to see the numbers for other New England airports.

Something that jumped out at me is how B6 has overtaken UA at BDL. UA used to run multiple daily DC-10s to ORD. I guess they hit reverse gear in the face of B6 and WN in New England. UA is also very thin at PVD and MHT.

The other thing that jumps out at me is how B6 has a gold mine in New England with their name recognition. They started late at BDL and quickly grew to half the size of market leading WN. I think F9 jumped into PVD after B6 hesitated at adding flights. I would expect the B6 numbers to also be strong at BTV, PWM, and PVD. I'm curious. Why is B6 not yet at MHT? WN carries almost 2 million people a year, so it's not a small market. I think I saw somewhere that B6 has said, "when" and not "if" when it comes to serving MHT.


WN handled 1,178,377 passengers in 2016 at MHT, flat growth from 2015. Not sure if there is room at MHT for jetBlue with BOS right down the road, maybe in the future.



My bad. The data I looked at for MHT is several years old and I didn't realize MHT has lost so much traffic. And why is it still dropping? PVD seems to be recovering nicely now and it's about the same distance away from Logan. Is seems the vast majority of medium sized airports are growing again. I doubt people in NH stopped flying.

Given the history of being able to draw more passengers, I think I will double-down on your statement that there is no room at MHT for jetBlue. jetBlue wouldn't necessarily be dividing what's left of the MHT pie, but would be bringing some back that may not be going to Logan to fly on them, enabling regional growth for the airline. If they can make ORH work, they certainly could do the same for MHT.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:38 pm

There has been much discussion about MHT and it's problems, but it comes down to a couple of things. 1 CBP or lack of a decent one, lost them D8 to PVD 2. WN started life at MHT because they didn't have access to BOS, once they got that, they started moving flights down and thus drew down the level of flying at MHT and continue to do so. Some of the NH guys can explain the issues a bit better than me, but they've put it all on the management of MHT to be honest.

ORH is on a slow slide and B6 have benefited from the incentives provided by Massport, but have tentatively committed to a JFK run at somepoint. So we will see, the CAT III project will help along with some of the other improvements, but it's going to be an uphill battle with BOS, PVD and BDL now that PVD has some more options.
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SCHATC422
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:57 pm

FAA ATC
Former SWA Ramper
 
pwm2txlhopper
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:03 pm

PWM continues to grow, as MHT growth has become stagnant. Passengers numbers increase year after year. As of two years ago, PWM was the fastest growing airport in New England. (Might still be?)

Delta (Endeavor) has just resumed PWM-JFK, after suspending it close to ten years ago. They also started BGR-JFK this year with mainline aircraft.

United has started a daily flight from ORD on the 737-800. This has been the first time UA has had regularly scheduled mainline service to PWM since 2001 (although, last summer, there were weekend A320 flights to ORD and IAH)

Elite Airways, whose headquarters is Portland based, has been expanding PWM service on their flights to Florida. They've also been flying to SRQ or MLB-PWM-YHZ this summer. Last year they tried flying ISP-PWM-BHB. Didn't last long, but it's been interesting watching this RJ startup the last few years.

Up at BGR, UA has resumed ORD-BGR after a two decade plus absence. (Operated by Skywest E170) Delta has started the previously mentioned service to JFK. Not as much military charter activity these days in BGR as operations in the Middle East have slowed down. It seems like most of he military contract flights, both cargo and troop, are transiting through PSM instead these days?

Way up north, at the former Loring AFB, Maine, a yet to be publicly reviled company has been renovating a vacant hangar and preparing to set up shop to start doing heavy maintenance on airline sized aircraft before this winter is over. As this giant SAC base has sat vacant for 23 years, this is exciting news to hear it's aviation assets will be put back to use.

'Former Loring base preparing for new aviation repair firm'

http://thecounty.me/2017/06/22/news/for ... pair-firm/
 
uconn99
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:47 am

SCHATC422 wrote:


This surprises me as I have no issues with BDL when it comes to security lines, shops, dinning, or lounge access. With terminal B finally being torn down, the airport is a modern facility. For a medium sized airport, BDL has all amenities needed IMO.
 
B595
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:45 am

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Way up north, at the former Loring AFB, Maine, a yet to be publicly reviled company has been renovating a vacant hangar and preparing to set up shop to start doing heavy maintenance on airline sized aircraft before this winter is over. As this giant SAC base has sat vacant for 23 years, this is exciting news to hear it's aviation assets will be put back to use.


Very interesting, hope it comes to pass. I hate to see expensive, high-quality aviation infrastructure like Loring's just left to decay. It wasn't so long ago that they were using the runway to race cars.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:08 am

Great thread. I grew up in the BDL area but have been in PHX for the last 40 Years or so. I make several trips a year into BDL and am about to make my 4th for this year next week. I am happy to see all the international flights that are doing well in the area. As far as BDL I never had a problem and found it fairly easy to navigate and deal with. I always take AA out of PHX and come thru DFW or CLT without too much hassle. ORH always interested me and would love to see AA fly some routes to PHL or DCA, CLT. See you all in BDL next week!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:39 am

We keep harping on MHT management as a ‘causal factor,’ but frankly all the other reasons don’t hold up under scrutiny. The 50 miles is close, yes, but no closer than PVD-BOS. The market IS there. I flew on many FULL UA 757s between MHT-ORD in the past. Full US A321s to PHL, too. The terminal has plenty of room for more counters, and the runways are plenty long enough and fully instrumented. Road access is great (hello, Worcester). So I honestly don’t know where you point the finger if not at management. I will say that lack of rail service MIGHT be an issue, although I’m nowhere near convinced that it is the crucial difference-maker elsewhere.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:21 am

chrisnh wrote:
So I honestly don’t know where you point the finger if not at management. I will say that lack of rail service MIGHT be an issue, although I’m nowhere near convinced that it is the crucial difference-maker elsewhere.


You can point your finger at the 4x more people that live in the comparable region to the south as opposed to the north, coupled with the fact that when MHT had that service, PWM had no B6 or WN.

Also MHT did not lose D8 to PVD, PSM did, I dont believe MHT was ever even a consideration (at least not towards the end). ( that may be a more legitimate finger pointing for you).
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:13 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
So I honestly don’t know where you point the finger if not at management. I will say that lack of rail service MIGHT be an issue, although I’m nowhere near convinced that it is the crucial difference-maker elsewhere.


You can point your finger at the 4x more people that live in the comparable region to the south as opposed to the north, coupled with the fact that when MHT had that service, PWM had no B6 or WN.

Also MHT did not lose D8 to PVD, PSM did, I dont believe MHT was ever even a consideration (at least not towards the end). ( that may be a more legitimate finger pointing for you).

I see that MHT has largely tanked under current airport director Mark Brewer. But he came over from PVD. What was his track record at PVD? Was he a visionary in adjusting and planning for the future or did he just react? It seems he could have done much more with expanding the main runway years earlier, but took the easy way out. What was his reputation? I doubt the decline at MHT is all his fault, but perhaps the magnitude of the fall is connected to him. He seems to have no plan to stop the slide except wait.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:18 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Also MHT did not lose D8 to PVD, PSM did, I dont believe MHT was ever even a consideration (at least not towards the end). ( that may be a more legitimate finger pointing for you).

I agree, MHT did not lose D8 to PVD. They lost even earlier to PSM, which is really sad. PVD was ready for D8 and deserved it. It was too much effort for MHT to even try to get into the game. Seems to me, a lack of vision that runs counter with their earlier statements of trying to attract this kind of service (and then never build FIS).
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:21 pm

My understanding and the way I see it is that there is a correlation with declining numbers at MHT and the completion of the Big Dig in Boston. This coupled with the entrance of B6 into the BOS market. You need to remember how much of a pain in the but it was getting to BOS from the north before the project was complete. It was virtually impossible from I-93. I remember as a kid we never took I-93 to get to BOS the few times we flew out of there. It was always I-95 with a stay over at a hotel before an early morning flight. This always made MHT the more desirable choice. WN coming into MHT created a lot of competition. This was when you saw numerous UA 757 to ORD and mainline US to PHL and CLT.

Peace :box:
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
airbazar
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:49 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
So I honestly don’t know where you point the finger if not at management. I will say that lack of rail service MIGHT be an issue, although I’m nowhere near convinced that it is the crucial difference-maker elsewhere.


You can point your finger at the 4x more people that live in the comparable region to the south as opposed to the north, coupled with the fact that when MHT had that service, PWM had no B6 or WN.

Of which a lot are too poor to be flying. Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region.

LotsaRunway wrote:
I see that MHT has largely tanked under current airport director Mark Brewer. But he came over from PVD. What was his track record at PVD?

Terrible. That's why he was replaced.

bomber996 wrote:
My understanding and the way I see it is that there is a correlation with declining numbers at MHT and the completion of the Big Dig in Boston. This coupled with the entrance of B6 into the BOS market

Definitely a factor however, those people are still here and chose to drive past MHT to get to/from BOS. Why?
Part of the reason is because MHT doesn't offer what they want. People got used to flying without a connection. There are fewer p2p options from MHT
Part of the reason is because everyone around has been siphoning away traffic from MHT: BOS, ORH, BTV, PWM, even PSM..
Part of the reason is cost. It's not cheap to fly from MHT. Often it's more expensive than BOS even when parking is included.
MHT is not going to grow until they find a way to make it more affordable for the consumer. Cutting the parking costs in half to make up for the higher fares, would be a good place to start.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:36 pm

airbazar wrote:
Of which a lot are too poor to be flying. Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region.
.


I knew I would summon some biased PVD-bashing on that one...

Your point has zero basis in actual event that occured in the fact that MHT has declined and continued to decline at greater levels and that has zero, zilch, nada to do with anything related to poor suburbs south of Boston.

MHT is a victim of geography and demographics and the best airport manager in the world is not going to bring 757s back nor will they even get MHT back to the 4 million passenger mark absent a major change at BOS.

There just are not enough people up there in what would be their independent market and there as been a paradigm shift as it related to traffic they once got from Maine.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
bomber996
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:32 pm

airbazar wrote:
Part of the reason is because everyone around has been siphoning away traffic from MHT: BOS, ORH, BTV, PWM, even PSM..
Part of the reason is cost. It's not cheap to fly from MHT. Often it's more expensive than BOS even when parking is included.
MHT is not going to grow until they find a way to make it more affordable for the consumer. Cutting the parking costs in half to make up for the higher fares, would be a good place to start.


This didn't used to be the case. Back when traffic was at all time highs it was often cheaper to fly from MHT than it was from BOS. BOS at the time had no real LCC presence. MHT had WN who was significantly cheaper at the time than the legacies. BOS fares didn't start coming down really until B6 came into the fray.

But seriously. It is so true. BOS is easily $200 minimum cheaper than MHT. I live in Denver now and fly back to NH where I grew up 3-4 times a year. The cheapest I've ever found to MHT was $350 r/t and the cheapest I've found to BOS has been around $250. Factor in things like holidays or busier summer travel and the delta between the two does nothing but expand.

Another factor that works in BOS favor is the hourly bus service from Concord and Manchester. At least with Concord Coachlines there is free parking and a $35 r/t bus ticket.

Peace :box:
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:09 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Of which a lot are too poor to be flying. Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region.
.


I knew I would summon some biased PVD-bashing on that one...

Your point has zero basis in actual event that occured in the fact that MHT has declined and continued to decline at greater levels and that has zero, zilch, nada to do with anything related to poor suburbs south of Boston.

I think the point is that NH is one of the richest states in the country and that should level the field between the two markets to a degree.

I don't agree that PVD's catch area is 4 times larger than MHT's. I'm a PVD supporter, but I realize there is a whole lot more to airport fetch than metropolitan areas. MHT has a whole lot of areas for which it is the closest airport, but people drive right past MHT on the way to BOS. There is a lot of leakage from NH to BOS and there are many reasons for it, but at least some of it is state of mind. Many people just default to thinking BOS when the travel and don't even check MHT.

bomber996 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Part of the reason is because everyone around has been siphoning away traffic from MHT: BOS, ORH, BTV, PWM, even PSM..
Part of the reason is cost. It's not cheap to fly from MHT. Often it's more expensive than BOS even when parking is included.
MHT is not going to grow until they find a way to make it more affordable for the consumer. Cutting the parking costs in half to make up for the higher fares, would be a good place to start.


This didn't used to be the case. Back when traffic was at all time highs it was often cheaper to fly from MHT than it was from BOS. BOS at the time had no real LCC presence. MHT had WN who was significantly cheaper at the time than the legacies. BOS fares didn't start coming down really until B6 came into the fray.

But seriously. It is so true. BOS is easily $200 minimum cheaper than MHT. I live in Denver now and fly back to NH where I grew up 3-4 times a year. The cheapest I've ever found to MHT was $350 r/t and the cheapest I've found to BOS has been around $250. Factor in things like holidays or busier summer travel and the delta between the two does nothing but expand.

Another factor that works in BOS favor is the hourly bus service from Concord and Manchester. At least with Concord Coachlines there is free parking and a $35 r/t bus ticket.

Peace :box:

Back when WN had a nonstop from MHT to DEN, I flew RT for about $220. Now that nonstop leaves from BOS.

I think one thing that really hurts MHT is reliability and what you get for the price. The airport infrastructure is great, but when your plane is a DH8 or CRJ that runs hours late or frequently cancelled in deference to bigger planes at EWR, PHL, LGA, or ORD, why would you come back? How is the comfort on that CRJ vs a 737-800? You pay more for less at MHT in many cases.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Allegiant is going to restart BTV-SFB, according to an interview with a company spokesman in the Burlington Free Press:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/biz/

(down the page under VIDEO)

Can't find any confirmation elsewhere, but BTV is on the Allegiant website's route map again.
 
pwm2txlhopper
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:20 am

I forgot to mention in my previous post that Allegiant has significantly expanded their presence at PSM over the last two years.

initially, they only flew twice weekly to SFB. In the last two years, they've added PIE, PGD, and FLL on a seasonal basis. SFB is still year round. I've also heard FLL will not resume this November? However, haven't confirmed this. Service to MYR was also commenced about a month ago.

I've used the PSM-FLL flight three times last year. It's great parking at PSM for free, and then flying to FLL with my girlfriend for only $200 Total for the two of us!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:30 am

The lack of B6 at MHT is a big reason why I don't fly out of it even though I live in the Merrimack valley.
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:31 am

bomber996 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Part of the reason is because everyone around has been siphoning away traffic from MHT: BOS, ORH, BTV, PWM, even PSM..
Part of the reason is cost. It's not cheap to fly from MHT. Often it's more expensive than BOS even when parking is included.
MHT is not going to grow until they find a way to make it more affordable for the consumer. Cutting the parking costs in half to make up for the higher fares, would be a good place to start.


This didn't used to be the case. Back when traffic was at all time highs it was often cheaper to fly from MHT than it was from BOS. BOS at the time had no real LCC presence. MHT had WN who was significantly cheaper at the time than the legacies. BOS fares didn't start coming down really until B6 came into the fray.

But seriously. It is so true. BOS is easily $200 minimum cheaper than MHT. I live in Denver now and fly back to NH where I grew up 3-4 times a year. The cheapest I've ever found to MHT was $350 r/t and the cheapest I've found to BOS has been around $250. Factor in things like holidays or busier summer travel and the delta between the two does nothing but expand.

Another factor that works in BOS favor is the hourly bus service from Concord and Manchester. At least with Concord Coachlines there is free parking and a $35 r/t bus ticket.

Peace :box:


PWM is my home airport. Even though I'm less than 60 miles from MHT, I never used MHT and use to go to BOS for flights.

I haven't gone to Boston for a flight in eleven years. Since JetBlue and AirTran came to town in 2006, PWM is almost always the same price, or often even less than going to BOS or MHT. (Especially considering the expense of getting there. Either Bus, train, driving and parking.) DL, AA, UA usually match the LCC fares. Ten years ago you'd never get a $250 RT from PWM to the West Coast or Carribean.

PWM growth has taken a small but significant portion of MHT passengers in the catchment area of the two airports. They kind of overlap.
 
airbazar
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:06 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Of which a lot are too poor to be flying. Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region.
.


I knew I would summon some biased PVD-bashing on that one...

Your point has zero basis in actual event that occured in the fact that MHT has declined and continued to decline at greater levels and that has zero, zilch, nada to do with anything related to poor suburbs south of Boston..

Here we go again. That wasn't meant to be a MHT vs. PVD comment. You're just too blind to any facts that might lower it's significance.
The fact is, Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region so you can't count those people as potential customers of PVD. Bristol County is the second poorest in MA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... ita_income
The same applies up north. We can't count the entire population of Lawrence, or Nashua, or Manchester as potential customers to either MHT or BOS. It's common sense.

LotsaRunway wrote:
I don't agree that PVD's catch area is 4 times larger than MHT's. I'm a PVD supporter, but I realize there is a whole lot more to airport fetch than metropolitan areas.

I'm glad someone got it :)
 
RL757PVD
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm

airbazar wrote:
Here we go again. That wasn't meant to be a MHT vs. PVD comment. You're just too blind to any facts that might lower it's significance.
The fact is, Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region so you can't count those people as potential customers of PVD. Bristol County is the second poorest in MA:


Well they are coming from somewhere, because I the latest stat is close to 40% of PVD's pax come from Massachusetts, so either they are flying or there are enough non-poor mixed in. You observations have zero relevance in the face of actual usage.

Anyone know that the MHT user base mix looks like?
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b777900
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Will MHT ever grow Air service?? I was hoping to see that one day I guess I am still waiting? Would be nice to see expansion at MHT they do have plenty of gates... any update on MHT?
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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:35 pm

b777900 wrote:
Will MHT ever grow Air service?? I was hoping to see that one day I guess I am still waiting? Would be nice to see expansion at MHT they do have plenty of gates... any update on MHT?


might want to read up the thread a bit, lots of conversation about MHT specifically already
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chrisnh
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:20 pm

It only needed to happen once, and that was enough to send me to Logan for anything outside of flights to Orlando, Tampa, or Baltimore. It happened Super Bowl night a few years ago (Seattle-Denver) and I was booked to fly MHT-ORD-SFO for a week-long conference. One of my cousins was, at the time, a VP at United. So he kindly bumped me up to Business Class on the 777 that would take me from ORD-to SFO.

Well, the plane that would take me from MHT to ORD was very late coming in from ORD. It was an RJ. Of course we got into ORD very late, and despite running from the RJ concourse to the mainline gates my 777 had already backed away from the gate and I was left to spend the night at the Doubletree in nearby Des Plaines. Next morning I was in a middle seat on a 737-900 to SFO…fuming all the way.

So my point is that business travelers need flexibility should something go wrong. At MHT there is no flexibility when it comes to DL and UA. DL has a lone flight to ATL and you’re cooked if that goes tech. Of course they’d simply tell you to go to Boston. Same with United. So I decided to just make Logan my airport, putting up with the journey to get there as the price I have to pay for flexibility.

I do notice that MHT, in the flights it does have, is more fixated on north-south flying than east-west. Southwest did have nonstop flights to PHX, LAS, and DEN (although not concurrently), which are good places to connect in the winter in the same way that Chicago Midway isn’t. So if I’m flying to the west coast, the fact that MHT is about 35 minutes from my house isn’t enough of a benefit to compensate for the list of problems that can be encountered.

Yes, you can count me among those ‘management bashers.’ I’ve not witnessed any activity on their part that would convince me that they are trying. They are squatting on a great asset, raking in gargantuan salaries. Like I said many times before, MHT is an airport/market that has proven itself in the past. And I’m thankful to say I have many 757 and A321 flights under my belt through MHT over the years. I’d have a hard time convincing anyone of that if I didn’t have meticulous notes about flight numbers, registrations, routes, and so on.

The only remediation for MHT will come if and when BOS chokes on its own success. That, ironically, was what gave rise to MHT in the first place. But today's Logan is a far cry busier now than in 1980, and since the airport is surrounded by either water or neighborhoods the 'growth' in traffic will, at some point, come by offloading some flights to MHT. It just seems inevitable. But my days of lamenting MHT's demise are over. I'm quite happy flying into and out of BOS. I'm sure I'm not alone, as the empty parking lots at MHT can attest.
 
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WNflyer1523
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:47 pm

http://wtnh.com/2017/10/02/judge-uphold ... ed-runway/
Soooo, a judge just ruled that HVN can not lengthen their runway. This is a major blow to the airport, a bunch of potential new carriers down the drain.
Someday KISP will succeed. Someday.
 
uconn99
Topic Author
Posts: 130
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:09 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
http://wtnh.com/2017/10/02/judge-upholds-state-law-limiting-length-of-tweed-runway/
Soooo, a judge just ruled that HVN can not lengthen their runway. This is a major blow to the airport, a bunch of potential new carriers down the drain.


Im sure this isn't the end of it but definitely a blow to HVN gaining more flights in the future.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:00 am

cheapgreek wrote:
CairnterriAIR wrote:
Curious about BDL as it is my home airport and has seen quite the uptick in passengers. What new service could possibly be seen? I know a lot of people are wishing for London, Paris, or the possibility of the return of Amsterdam. With Dublin seemingly doing very well, a lot of people are also hoping for service to Shannon a day or two a week. Any input!

Also HVN.....could Delta's C-Series arriving in the future be helpful in giving the airport a boost....especially with the short runway?


The CS100 was cleared to operate at London city airport with its 4900 foot runway. HVN has a steep approach on runway 20 rendering the runway length 5250 feet. Should work and both DTW and ATL would be under 900 miles. The federal judge should issue his ruling soon, its been 2 months since the trial.


Don't think I've ever seen 20 being used for arrivals. I know for a fact I've never landed on it.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:58 am

DashTrash wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
CairnterriAIR wrote:
Curious about BDL as it is my home airport and has seen quite the uptick in passengers. What new service could possibly be seen? I know a lot of people are wishing for London, Paris, or the possibility of the return of Amsterdam. With Dublin seemingly doing very well, a lot of people are also hoping for service to Shannon a day or two a week. Any input!

Also HVN.....could Delta's C-Series arriving in the future be helpful in giving the airport a boost....especially with the short runway?


The CS100 was cleared to operate at London city airport with its 4900 foot runway. HVN has a steep approach on runway 20 rendering the runway length 5250 feet. Should work and both DTW and ATL would be under 900 miles. The federal judge should issue his ruling soon, its been 2 months since the trial.


Don't think I've ever seen 20 being used for arrivals. I know for a fact I've never landed on it.


Back in the 70's, Eastern 727's would land on runway 20 and in then 90's, I flew United 737's from ORD to HVN and landed on runway 20 also. I hope the case is appealed, this airport can offer much more service to a large catchment area.
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:19 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
http://wtnh.com/2017/10/02/judge-upholds-state-law-limiting-length-of-tweed-runway/
Soooo, a judge just ruled that HVN can not lengthen their runway. This is a major blow to the airport, a bunch of potential new carriers down the drain.


Article says:

Richardson wrote he wasn’t convinced of the state-run airport’s claims that the law limiting the runway to its current 5,600 feet is threatening existing service and preventing Tweed from attracting more commercial flights.


Seems like nonsense to me. I hope it gets appealed.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
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Revelation
Posts: 16647
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:33 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
Given the history of being able to draw more passengers, I think I will double-down on your statement that there is no room at MHT for jetBlue. jetBlue wouldn't necessarily be dividing what's left of the MHT pie, but would be bringing some back that may not be going to Logan to fly on them, enabling regional growth for the airline. If they can make ORH work, they certainly could do the same for MHT.

B6 is only at ORH to keep Massport happy. B6 has a history of making such deals, ref: JFK.

MHT's bubble of growth happened for several reasons. A big one was the legacies had all the terminals in BOS locked up so there was no place for WN or B6 to move in. The bankruptcies of the legacies in the 2000s changed everything. Now you see WN and B6 have thriving operations at BOS and IMHO there's no need for them to serve MHT.

At this point I'd be more surprised by B6 starting up MHT operations than WN closing down MHT operations. It's sad, but the confluence of events that drove MHT to great success in the 2000s is now gone. MHT used to be my go-to airport, but now it's got very little appeal. Much of the non-stop flying now gets at least 1 stop at inconvenient times and is not cheap. You get better options with better fallbacks if things go wrong at BOS. The main negative of BOS, ground transportation, can be mitigated and gets overwhelmed by all the positives.

MHT used to provide good itineraries, high convenience, and cheap fares. For me, the convenience is still high, but once I start needing to make stops out of MHT, I start to look at BOS for its competitive pricing with flexible itineraries often with plenty of non-stops.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
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ssteve
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:55 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
'Former Loring base preparing for new aviation repair firm'

http://thecounty.me/2017/06/22/news/for ... pair-firm/


Wow, that's WAY up there.

Could TATL flights pass customs there? It's 3 hours from the CBP guys at Bangor, but it's near the border.

I wonder if they see an advantage to being a very northeasterly MRO setup in the US. Get something like a bizjet with short legs repositioning to the US from Europe to stop by...
 
jco613
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:07 pm

WNflyer1523 wrote:
http://wtnh.com/2017/10/02/judge-upholds-state-law-limiting-length-of-tweed-runway/
Soooo, a judge just ruled that HVN can not lengthen their runway. This is a major blow to the airport, a bunch of potential new carriers down the drain.


How does this effect the CRJ performance to PHL? Will they need to block off seats? If this is the case, it goes 100% against the opinion of the judge.

In any case, I'd like to see how the PAX numbers look after the switch to CRJ. Most flights I see at HVN tend to be very close to, if not full.

As a resident of the area, just 15 minutes from Tweed, an Uber driver in the area, and someone who is switching some flights to Tweed after they add the CRJ, I am deeply upset with this decision and hope they take it to the appeals court.
 
uconn99
Topic Author
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:38 pm

jco613 wrote:
WNflyer1523 wrote:
http://wtnh.com/2017/10/02/judge-upholds-state-law-limiting-length-of-tweed-runway/
Soooo, a judge just ruled that HVN can not lengthen their runway. This is a major blow to the airport, a bunch of potential new carriers down the drain.


How does this effect the CRJ performance to PHL? Will they need to block off seats? If this is the case, it goes 100% against the opinion of the judge.

In any case, I'd like to see how the PAX numbers look after the switch to CRJ. Most flights I see at HVN tend to be very close to, if not full.

As a resident of the area, just 15 minutes from Tweed, an Uber driver in the area, and someone who is switching some flights to Tweed after they add the CRJ, I am deeply upset with this decision and hope they take it to the appeals court.


HVN-PHL Loads-

2014- 73.9%
2015- 77.5%
2016- 74.1%
2017 (Through February)- 76.5%
 
iyerhari
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:

MHT used to provide good itineraries, high convenience, and cheap fares. For me, the convenience is still high, but once I start needing to make stops out of MHT, I start to look at BOS for its competitive pricing with flexible itineraries often with plenty of non-stops.


I believe the other big difference was Big Dig and easier access to Logan from I-90. I have been told by people that commuting to Logan prior to the dig was brutal and most preferred to use MHT or PVD as they dreaded the travel and miss flights. We had discussed this multiple times in the Boston aviation is the flexibility aspect and options available from Logan vs. MHT or even PVD. It is like comparing ABE vs. PHL. ABE offers a direct flight to DTW, ATL, ORD and CLT but each time there was any issue, people were encouraged to travel to PHL. One thing that needs to be explicitly stated is to give the kudos to Massport which is a good case study for many airports. They have invested a millions and probably billions in forward facing projects over the years to make things simpler and easier and not to mention an aggressive sales team who are always scouting for new airlines and destinations.
 
SCHATC422
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:09 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:02 am

B595 wrote:
Allegiant is going to restart BTV-SFB, according to an interview with a company spokesman in the Burlington Free Press:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/biz/

(down the page under VIDEO)

Can't find any confirmation elsewhere, but BTV is on the Allegiant website's route map again.



Not seeing a single thing reference the two points you just made.
1. BTV isn't on Allegiant's route map
2. Nothing in the Burlington Free Press website about any return to BTV.
3. Allegiant just ended service all together in BTV just in March of this year, what makes you think they would go back so quickly? Not logical IMO....
FAA ATC
Former SWA Ramper
 
BTVB6Flyer
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:20 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:49 am

SCHATC422 wrote:
B595 wrote:
Allegiant is going to restart BTV-SFB, according to an interview with a company spokesman in the Burlington Free Press:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/biz/

(down the page under VIDEO)

Can't find any confirmation elsewhere, but BTV is on the Allegiant website's route map again.



Not seeing a single thing reference the two points you just made.
1. BTV isn't on Allegiant's route map
2. Nothing in the Burlington Free Press website about any return to BTV.
3. Allegiant just ended service all together in BTV just in March of this year, what makes you think they would go back so quickly? Not logical IMO....


To be fair, BTV is a dot on it's route map (https://www.allegiantair.com/route-map), however, it does not appear on the interactive route map.

As for the video referenced, it was also next to a video about St. Albans' Walmart opening, which happend years ago.
 
B595
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:52 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:54 am

SCHATC422 wrote:

Not seeing a single thing reference the two points you just made.
1. BTV isn't on Allegiant's route map
2. Nothing in the Burlington Free Press website about any return to BTV.
3. Allegiant just ended service all together in BTV just in March of this year, what makes you think they would go back so quickly? Not logical IMO....


You didn't look hard enough:

1) BTV is on their non-interactive route map, the one that is directly linked to by the "route map" tab on the front page. The PBG and BTV dots almost overlap. You are correct that it's not on their interactive map.
2) Video #5 of 10 is the Allegiant spokesman. It's still there: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/biz/, next to VIDEOS.
3) I agree, it's curious. That's why I looked for independent confirmation.
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 3756
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:41 am

One thing keeping MHT where it is is apathy. The media mouthpieces don’t seem to care; the political mouthpieces don’t, either. Basically the concern comes from us...the AvGeek community. Politics and media make for a combustible mix, but neither seems to have much enthusiasm for challenging MHT management for the continued malaise plaguing the airport. One thing I do know is that MHT management get very sensitive and irritated when suggestions of incompetence arise. Which is telling in and of itself.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 16647
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:15 am

chrisnh wrote:
One thing I do know is that MHT management get very sensitive and irritated when suggestions of incompetence arise. Which is telling in and of itself.

You are surprised that questioning a person's competence makes them sensitive and irritated? Geez!
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
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LotsaRunway
Posts: 131
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:41 pm

Anyone know how entry of the ULCCs are affecting fares and loads at PVD? Have WN and B6 lowered fares to match on overlapping routes?
 
tomaheath
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:54 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
Anyone know how entry of the ULCCs are affecting fares and loads at PVD? Have WN and B6 lowered fares to match on overlapping routes?

I had thought WN had cut back a bit in Florida?
 
B752OS
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:43 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Here we go again. That wasn't meant to be a MHT vs. PVD comment. You're just too blind to any facts that might lower it's significance.
The fact is, Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region so you can't count those people as potential customers of PVD. Bristol County is the second poorest in MA:


Well they are coming from somewhere, because I the latest stat is close to 40% of PVD's pax come from Massachusetts, so either they are flying or there are enough non-poor mixed in. You observations have zero relevance in the face of actual usage.

Anyone know that the MHT user base mix looks like?


I am not surprised at all that PVD draws a nice portion of their traffic from Massachusetts. I grew up in Norfolk County and a number of people I know (I know a small sample size) would use PVD over BOS. Growing up we would mostly use PVD for our air travel on family vacations (mostly to MCO).

I have always viewed PVD as serving the Greater Boston area. While Providence has its own distinct metro area and none of Rhode Island is a part of Boston's metro area (all of the Southcoast of Mass is a part of the Providence metro area), I view both airports as being beneficial to the region.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:15 am

B752OS wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Here we go again. That wasn't meant to be a MHT vs. PVD comment. You're just too blind to any facts that might lower it's significance.
The fact is, Southern MA and RI have some of the poorest towns in the region so you can't count those people as potential customers of PVD. Bristol County is the second poorest in MA:


Well they are coming from somewhere, because I the latest stat is close to 40% of PVD's pax come from Massachusetts, so either they are flying or there are enough non-poor mixed in. You observations have zero relevance in the face of actual usage.

Anyone know that the MHT user base mix looks like?



I am not surprised at all that PVD draws a nice portion of their traffic from Massachusetts. I grew up in Norfolk County and a number of people I know (I know a small sample size) would use PVD over BOS. Growing up we would mostly use PVD for our air travel on family vacations (mostly to MCO).

I have always viewed PVD as serving the Greater Boston area. While Providence has its own distinct metro area and none of Rhode Island is a part of Boston's metro area (all of the Southcoast of Mass is a part of the Providence metro area), I view both airports as being beneficial to the region.


PVD also draws fron the Groton-New London area in CT. PVD is about 20 miles closer than BDL and is a straight shot on I-95.
 
uconn99
Topic Author
Posts: 130
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:20 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
B752OS wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:

Well they are coming from somewhere, because I the latest stat is close to 40% of PVD's pax come from Massachusetts, so either they are flying or there are enough non-poor mixed in. You observations have zero relevance in the face of actual usage.

Anyone know that the MHT user base mix looks like?



I am not surprised at all that PVD draws a nice portion of their traffic from Massachusetts. I grew up in Norfolk County and a number of people I know (I know a small sample size) would use PVD over BOS. Growing up we would mostly use PVD for our air travel on family vacations (mostly to MCO).

I have always viewed PVD as serving the Greater Boston area. While Providence has its own distinct metro area and none of Rhode Island is a part of Boston's metro area (all of the Southcoast of Mass is a part of the Providence metro area), I view both airports as being beneficial to the region.


PVD also draws fron the Groton-New London area in CT. PVD is about 20 miles closer than BDL and is a straight shot on I-95.


Look at slide 2, PVD hardly gets any traffic from SE Connecticut.

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/env ... 102011.pdf

Also pages 14/15-

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/cor ... ndec13.pdf
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2747
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:28 pm

uconn99 wrote:

Look at slide 2, PVD hardly gets any traffic from SE Connecticut.

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/env ... 102011.pdf

Also pages 14/15-

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/cor ... ndec13.pdf


I believe the state catchment total %'s have remained consistent with the rising and falling of traffic

RI has always been about 50%, MA about 40% and CT about 10%, the total numbers themselves may change as service offerings improve but I don't expect the %'s to change much
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:12 pm

uconn99 wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
B752OS wrote:


I am not surprised at all that PVD draws a nice portion of their traffic from Massachusetts. I grew up in Norfolk County and a number of people I know (I know a small sample size) would use PVD over BOS. Growing up we would mostly use PVD for our air travel on family vacations (mostly to MCO).

I have always viewed PVD as serving the Greater Boston area. While Providence has its own distinct metro area and none of Rhode Island is a part of Boston's metro area (all of the Southcoast of Mass is a part of the Providence metro area), I view both airports as being beneficial to the region.


PVD also draws fron the Groton-New London area in CT. PVD is about 20 miles closer than BDL and is a straight shot on I-95.


Look at slide 2, PVD hardly gets any traffic from SE Connecticut.

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/env ... 102011.pdf

Also pages 14/15-

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/cor ... ndec13.pdf


Kind of surprises me. PVD big pluses are closer, one highway trip and PVD offers much of what BOS and BDL do domestically.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:10 am

Count me in on the anti MHT management team. What we have is a group who likes the perks of traveling to aviation conventions under the assumption they can land new service to MHT. Personally MHT should be handed over to the state and have them bring in a proper management team. I am convinced Manchester city hall is clueless on how to run the airport.
That being said would NK, F9 or G4 consider MHT? I could see NK doing MHT-ORD,MHT-DTW and MHT-FLL. All routes that have supported mainline flights in the past.
 
lat41
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BVT/HVN)

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:15 am

georgiabill wrote:
Count me in on the anti MHT management team. What we have is a group who likes the perks of traveling to aviation conventions under the assumption they can land new service to MHT. Personally MHT should be handed over to the state and have them bring in a proper management team. I am convinced Manchester city hall is clueless on how to run the airport.
That being said would NK, F9 or G4 consider MHT? I could see NK doing MHT-ORD,MHT-DTW and MHT-FLL. All routes that have supported mainline flights in the past.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of those carriers is already looking, invited or not but maybe PSM or PWM have piqued their interest also.

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