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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:04 pm

holzmann wrote:
Does anyone know if this is some sort of official concept rendering from Boeing?


That is the Boeing 7E7, which became the Boeing 787 after incorporating changes to the design of the nose, the vertical stabilizer and the wingtip extensions.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:50 pm

So after all that it's just a 787 hybrid .797ish fuse,788 centre box and MLG with new wings and engine.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:20 pm

parapente wrote:
So after all that it's just a 787 hybrid .797ish fuse,788 centre box and MLG with new wings and engine.

No, it's not that at all, it's that simply someone copied a 787-3 picture and passed it off as a '797'.
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:47 am

The reason I made the comment I did was because of this statement from the Qantas CEO interview.If this new aircraft can seat 270 in two classes it has (surely) to be an aircraft of the size of a 789.As such since they already have a twin aisle (we know it is) that is of this size already why would they not use it.

"While not being drawn on the specific passenger breakdown of each model, the spokesman said the "family would seat 220-270 seats in dual class, or up to 300 in certain configurations"
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:33 pm

parapente wrote:
The reason I made the comment I did was because of this statement from the Qantas CEO interview. If this new aircraft can seat 270 in two classes it has (surely) to be an aircraft of the size of a 789. As such since they already have a twin aisle (we know it is) that is of this size already why would they not use it.


Do not confuse a two-class International Configuration with a two-class Domestic Configuration. QF's domestic 767-300ERs seated 254 with 30 Business Class seats at 40" (compared to closer to 80" for the current International Business Class seat) and 224 Economy Class at 31" pitch. This is more likely what we would see in a QF "797" domestic configuration.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:43 pm

That does suggest, though, that QF expects a cabin of similar area to that of the 767-300ER, possibly a bit less allowing for narrower seats/aisles. That's significantly bigger than earlier NMA rumors led us to expect.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:00 pm

seabosdca wrote:
That does suggest, though, that QF expects a cabin of similar area to that of the 767-300ER, possibly a bit less allowing for narrower seats/aisles. That's significantly bigger than earlier NMA rumors led us to expect.


Or that is what they desire.

It's been said that the 767-300ER fleet offered quicker turnarounds than the A330-200 on QF domestic runs so perhaps QF is looking for that "efficiency" but with the better economics of a new, lighter airframe, better aerodynamics and better propulsive systems.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:17 pm

I am totally happy to be wrong.And yes I do appreciate that there can be huge differences in pitch.So what is 270 in 2 class - max pax 300?
It just seemed to me that we are in 787 territory with these numbers.
M
Now all the prospective buyers have talked 'price'.Which us fine that's their right.So if you wanted to get your price right down using a variant of the 787 fuse/running gear etcetc.Might be one way.Perhaps a small dash9 shrink?
Obviously the wing and engine would need to be new.But the whole thing might be affordable and work to shorter lead times (than a clean sheet).
With a 'right sized' wing the 338 could never compete imho.The real costs would lie with the Engine OEM (single)!
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:01 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
I read articles that both A and B have been researching adding an engine( both gas and electric) behind the tail that results in 12-14 % reduction in fuel costs.

Given the fact that there is not now a suitable engine availability for the typical twin configuration would
this 3 engine concept be viable?

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 007674.pdf


Perhaps it wouldn't even be the same engine as the wing mounted engines or even the same thrust class. That could cut down the cost of mounting a tail engine.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:21 pm

Stitch wrote:
It's been said that the 767-300ER fleet offered quicker turnarounds than the A330-200 on QF domestic runs so perhaps QF is looking for that "efficiency" but with the better economics of a new, lighter airframe, better aerodynamics and better propulsive systems.


Curious why the 767 would have significantly lower turnaround times than the A330. Is it merely the lower seat capacity, or does the design of the aircraft itself speed up other parts of turnaround process?
 
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UAL747422
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Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:02 pm

Why is Boeing waiting to launch? In my opinion, they need to launch it ASAP, because the operating 757's and 767's will be at least 30-35 years old by the time the NMA hits the sky. Also, several airlines have expressed much interest in the airplane as well.
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Route66
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:05 pm

You might want to go to the thread already talking about this subject and find your answers.
 
SonOfABeech
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:17 pm

SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))
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caverunner17
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:54 pm

They have replacements for the 757 and 767 already -- The 737 MAX 9 and 10 and the 787-8 and new build 767-300ERs that are available.

Why are they waiting? Because they don't feel the need to launch yet. They have plenty of orders for their current MAX aircraft and the technology to replace the 737 isn't quite there yet and worth the investment.

It's a financial decision and it make sense.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:09 pm

WIederling wrote:
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))

I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:18 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
They have replacements for the 757 and 767 already -- The 737 MAX 9 and 10 and the 787-8 and new build 767-300ERs that are available.


Nobody is going to replace an old plane with the exact same plane. The 767 line is only still open because of FedEx and the tanker program. It’s also been well-established that the MAX is no 757 replacement, hence the flood of A321 orders by 757 operators.

The only way more pax 767s will sell is if they re-engine it, and if there was interest it would have happened already.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:23 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
WIederling wrote:
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))

I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.


Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:38 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))

I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.


Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

And this shows the problem right here: Boeing themselves don't know yet what the 797 should look like or what it can do. (nor do we)

The "MOM" market is difficult and launching an aircraft model is a multi-billion-dollar investment. They are testing the waters, checking with airlines what demand there is, whether existing models can meet that. Asking their engineers what, given the current technologies, the best configuration for the 797 might look like and what capabilities they can realise. Probably also discussing future technologies with their suppliers, they will need an engine after all. Their beancounters are busy finding out whether the investment can pay off, how to secure financing and staff and where to produce what.

There's a mountain of work to do before a long-term strategical decision is made.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:48 pm

mxaxai wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.


Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

And this shows the problem right here: Boeing themselves don't know yet what the 797 should look like or what it can do. (nor do we)

The "MOM" market is difficult and launching an aircraft model is a multi-billion-dollar investment. They are testing the waters, checking with airlines what demand there is, whether existing models can meet that. Asking their engineers what, given the current technologies, the best configuration for the 797 might look like and what capabilities they can realise. Probably also discussing future technologies with their suppliers, they will need an engine after all. Their beancounters are busy finding out whether the investment can pay off, how to secure financing and staff and where to produce what.

There's a mountain of work to do before a long-term strategical decision is made.


I think by now they have a good idea of what it is, it’s just that fact that they haven’t released any details themselves that causes all of this outside speculation.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:55 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
They have replacements for the 757 and 767 already -- The 737 MAX 9 and 10 and the 787-8 and new build 767-300ERs that are available.


Nobody is going to replace an old plane with the exact same plane. The 767 line is only still open because of FedEx and the tanker program. It’s also been well-established that the MAX is no 757 replacement, hence the flood of A321 orders by 757 operators.

The only way more pax 767s will sell is if they re-engine it, and if there was interest it would have happened already.

Plenty of airlines replace the same with the same. EK does it all the time. UA is taking used 767's to replace older 767's in their fleet. While no, I don't see any new 763 purchases, it's mostly because they are being replaced with the 787's and A330's where range is needed.

Also, yes, the 737-9/10 is a 757 replacement in all but a handful of routes (TATL, a few hot and high airports). That's why DL and UA ordered them by the buttload. While the A321 NEO LR has the range for TATL missions, there isn't a huge incentive currently for Boeing to have a clean-sheet design to compete that not only would cannibalize their higher profit MAX sales, but could take some 787 orders too.

Waiting for a mid to late 2020's launch is smart - Maximize the MAX sales, get through the backlog of 787 orders and have enough new tech/resources to have a new clean sheet 737/MOM replacement to develop a competitive frame that will last 30+ years.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:00 pm

Because you don't just launch airplanes on a whim. That's how you end up with an A350 like debacle.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:00 pm

Besides the issue of defining what the MOM will actually be, there's also the issue of engine efficiency to look at. As others have stated, were they to launch the MOM today it would be with current generation engines, more or less, when greater fuel efficiency is desired. When the engine manufacturers create newer tech, more efficient engine technologies, then we'll certainly see the Mom launched.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:04 pm

That the 797 or MOM is not launched yet, does show that it is not an open and shut case. The airplane is not fully defined, the market is not fully defined and it can easily be, that it will not be launched.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:16 pm

My guess is that as the MOM model it's aimed to be a best seller in a winde range of missions, Boeing it's being careful to do it fine. Boeing got to see operating costs, fuel consumption, and confort. The average body of these days, isn't the same that was used to design the 707 fuselage cross section. The MOM will got a widen fuselage than the A32X fuselage cross section.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 pm

WIederling wrote:
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))

Glad we have that sorted!

Now, on to new a.net thread:

Why is Airbus waiting to officially launch the Concorde Mk II ?
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:28 pm

Probably the main reason is lack of engines to hang off the wings. There are R&D in the works at GE, PW & RR but nothing firm enough to launch a new model. Doing the fuselage, wings and systems is the 'easy' stuff, the real leap forward will be governed by availability of the next generation engines.
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parapente
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:41 pm

Correct.The engines will be the deciding factor regarding any launch timing.No point in building a new glider!
I am sure they are not panicking about continental 757's,they have answered this with the 737-10.
As for 767's well the 788 was designed to do that job - for the longer missions.And they have sold a shed load.

To be fair Boeing have been well aware of this market gap for ages and made no secret of it.They launched to offer with the 783.However (as well as the well known 787 launch issues)the oversized wing and engine relative to the mission envisioned made it a non competitive .They are simply revisiting this general area a decade on.You will hear when they are ready!
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Where to apply lipstick, some blush and eyeliner to hide that it will be an A310 clone :-)))))

Glad we have that sorted!

Now, on to new a.net thread:

Why is Airbus waiting to officially launch the Concorde Mk II ?


Wouldn't it be cool to have a second generation Concorde though!! Wishful thinking. At least I can see a Concorde at the Museum of Flight in Seattle.
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:51 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Probably the main reason is lack of engines to hang off the wings. There are R&D in the works at GE, PW & RR but nothing firm enough to launch a new model. Doing the fuselage, wings and systems is the 'easy' stuff, the real leap forward will be governed by availability of the next generation engines.
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Then why don't we have any general specifications on the seating capacity, MTOW, range, payload, etc? It was about 12 months elapsed from when Boeing first strung together the characters "7E7" until we had some general definition of the major models. Even if you go back to Project Yellowstone, it was maybe three years elapsed.
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nine4nine
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:58 pm

Because Boeing will spend the precious engineering resources over the next few years scratching they’re heads trying to figure out how they can milk the 737 for every inch they possibly can for another 10 years before doing anything with the MOM/797.
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:05 pm

mxaxai wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.


Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

And this shows the problem right here: Boeing themselves don't know yet what the 797 should look like or what it can do. (nor do we)

The "MOM" market is difficult and launching an aircraft model is a multi-billion-dollar investment. They are testing the waters, checking with airlines what demand there is, whether existing models can meet that. Asking their engineers what, given the current technologies, the best configuration for the 797 might look like and what capabilities they can realise. Probably also discussing future technologies with their suppliers, they will need an engine after all. Their beancounters are busy finding out whether the investment can pay off, how to secure financing and staff and where to produce what.

There's a mountain of work to do before a long-term strategical decision is made.


Well Boeing has a pretty good idea where they are headed even if amateurs on a.net are throwing out wild speculations day in and day out. Some of this crap here is really far out.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:06 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Probably the main reason is lack of engines to hang off the wings. There are R&D in the works at GE, PW & RR but nothing firm enough to launch a new model. Doing the fuselage, wings and systems is the 'easy' stuff, the real leap forward will be governed by availability of the next generation engines.
SonOfABeech wrote:
Probably they still haven't decided what the MOM will be.


Then why don't we have any general specifications on the seating capacity, MTOW, range, payload, etc? It was about 12 months elapsed from when Boeing first strung together the characters "7E7" until we had some general definition of the major models. Even if you go back to Project Yellowstone, it was maybe three years elapsed.


Um, because they are not ready to release it to the amateur brigade just yet?
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:07 pm

mxaxai wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
I think it's almost certain it will be a narrowbody aircraft.


Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

And this shows the problem right here: Boeing themselves don't know yet what the 797 should look like or what it can do. (nor do we)

The "MOM" market is difficult and launching an aircraft model is a multi-billion-dollar investment. They are testing the waters, checking with airlines what demand there is, whether existing models can meet that. Asking their engineers what, given the current technologies, the best configuration for the 797 might look like and what capabilities they can realise. Probably also discussing future technologies with their suppliers, they will need an engine after all. Their beancounters are busy finding out whether the investment can pay off, how to secure financing and staff and where to produce what.

There's a mountain of work to do before a long-term strategical decision is made.

I suspect they have a pretty good idea based on airline feedback. They need to crunch a LOT of numbers as you point out (my bolding) to get the sell price where they can make a market. Then they need to get board authorization to even offer it, probably having launch orders pretty firm with that contingency. That's when we'll find out. What date? Throw a dart.
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:14 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Probably the main reason is lack of engines to hang off the wings. There are R&D in the works at GE, PW & RR but nothing firm enough to launch a new model. Doing the fuselage, wings and systems is the 'easy' stuff, the real leap forward will be governed by availability of the next generation engines.

The second main reason (!) IMHO is they need to gain more confidence in the manufacturing technology, otherwise the business case doesn't close.

DfwRevolution wrote:
Then why don't we have any general specifications on the seating capacity, MTOW, range, payload, etc? It was about 12 months elapsed from when Boeing first strung together the characters "7E7" until we had some general definition of the major models. Even if you go back to Project Yellowstone, it was maybe three years elapsed.

Because we don't matter. Maybe we'll get another "Airbus Dossier" leaked so we can find out more.

arcticcruiser wrote:
Um, because they are not ready to release it to the amateur brigade just yet?

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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:15 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
Um, because they are not ready to release it to the amateur brigade just yet?

I think we have a pretty good idea of who the "The MoM sucks" crowd here are already. :yes: ;)
They may already have their posts prepared. :lol:
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:15 pm

An still there is the question if Boeing can really make a business case for a MOM / 797. Airlines will always cry for it and will love a shiny new plane - if the price is right, and the operationel benefits are high enough, the commonaility is good enough and - if the price is right.

With current large narrowbodies and widebodies both being available by Airbus and Boeing in about the same size class the problem with a new plane will be that it´s going to canibalize your own sales, both on the low and upper end. Even bigger problem: you competitor has running production lines for both frames and can discount as far as he wishes just to win the deal. How big shall be the market volume and the margins to cover 5+ billion USD development costs, if not far more?

There are technical challenges, but I think the biggest challenge is the business case.
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Boeing seems to believe there is a business case so far. They estimate this market to be 4000 frames.The airlines are clamoring for a 757\767 replacement. A321LR is close on the 757, but not the 767. And the A330 and 787 are in a different weight class compared to the 757 and 767.

What I find may be a candidate is the proposed 787-3. It was supposed to be around 350,000 pounds like a 767-300. Maybe they offer that with new engines and a narrow body version to replace the 757?
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:57 pm

If we look at the key engine suppliers: who has the capacity to develop and deliver what the 797 needs within 5-10 years?

PW: Pretty stuck in a rut with GTF. Supply and quality issues.
RR: Seem to also be having issues churning out the volume. See also Trent-1000 issues. Of course, according to Airbus fans, UltraFan and Advance will arrive ahead of schedule, under budget, ove-spec, and in volume for the A380neo...tomorrow.
CFM: Supply issues and can't feed Airbus/Boeing LEAP engines fast enough.

Who does this leave? Could GE develop and deliver something fast enough on its own? Perhaps they once again want exclusivity?
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Ziyulu
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:39 pm

Who knows if the 797 is a wide-body or narrow-body?
 
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:12 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Who knows if the 797 is a wide-body or narrow-body?

Unless you are an insider, all you know is what the press tells us, and they are all saying it's a wide-body.

For instance:

Boeing has confirmed that it's studying a possible middle-of-the-market jet, but it's still in the process of talking to customers and building the business case. As a result, nothing about the future 797 program is set in stone.

That said, the broad outlines of Boeing's plan have come to light. It's envisioning a twin-aisle aircraft with an elliptical fuselage to improve fuel efficiency. The 797 would have two variants: One could hold 225 seats in a typical international configuration, with 5,000 nautical miles of range, while the other could seat 275 and fly up to 4,500 nautical miles. Boeing is targeting a 30% unit-cost improvement over its aging 757 and 767 models.

Ref: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/02/ ... es-wh.aspx
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:32 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Boeing seems to believe there is a business case so far. They estimate this market to be 4000 frames.The airlines are clamoring for a 757\767 replacement. A321LR is close on the 757, but not the 767. And the A330 and 787 are in a different weight class compared to the 757 and 767.

What I find may be a candidate is the proposed 787-3. It was supposed to be around 350,000 pounds like a 767-300. Maybe they offer that with new engines and a narrow body version to replace the 757?


787-3 maybe in the same weight class as 767-300, but it's not even close to having 763 (even tne non-ER version)'s range. The only reason why it's even in the same weight class as 763 is because, well, 787-3 is basically a 787-8 that carry less fuel and have a smaller wing.

That plane was designed for one market and almost one market only - Japanese high-capacity domestic routes. It can certainly fill a niche in East Asia "regional" routes also, but that's about it.
 
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bgm
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:34 pm

Hopefully Boeing will finally design a plane that doesn't end up with narrow seats like all of their other aircraft (767 aside).
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sspontak
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:45 pm

[quote="
What I find may be a candidate is the proposed 787-3. It was supposed to be around 350,000 pounds like a 767-300. Maybe they offer that with new engines and a narrow body version to replace the 757?[/quote]

Sounds like a great idea to have 2 versions of the MOM, one to replace the 763 and one to replace the 757 sized aircraft. It seemed to work well for both types when they were introduced back in the early 1980's.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Then why don't we have any general specifications on the seating capacity, MTOW, range, payload, etc? It was about 12 months elapsed from when Boeing first strung together the characters "7E7" until we had some general definition of the major models. Even if you go back to Project Yellowstone, it was maybe three years elapsed.

Because we don't matter. Maybe we'll get another "Airbus Dossier" leaked so we can find out more.

arcticcruiser wrote:
Um, because they are not ready to release it to the amateur brigade just yet?

:checkmark:


Then why do OEMs communicate anything about any models? Why is the "amateur brigade" even entitled to know that the 787 has -8 and -9 variants? You're never going to buy one.

Here's a hint: there's no public definition of the NMA/MOM because there's no private definition of the NMA/MOM.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:59 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Then why do OEMs communicate anything about any models? Why is the "amateur brigade" even entitled to know that the 787 has -8 and -9 variants? You're never going to buy one.

Because the FAA makes them publish exit cards?

DfwRevolution wrote:
Here's a hint: there's no public definition of the NMA/MOM because there's no private definition of the NMA/MOM.

Here's another hint: If you're the CEO of DL ( ref: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/02/ ... es-wh.aspx ) ( ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet ) you'll be told enough to make you decide if you want to publicly say you want to be a launch customer or not.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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rheinwaldner
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

Right, all the talk.

All the talk tells me, that Boeing hasn't found what they want yet.

I am sure, Boeing will either have a solid business case or they wont launch it. Until now it was the latter as it seems...
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QuarkFly
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:12 pm

UAL747422 wrote:
Why is Boeing waiting to launch? In my opinion, they need to launch it ASAP, because the operating 757's and 767's will be at least 30-35 years old by the time the NMA hits the sky. Also, several airlines have expressed much interest in the airplane as well.


Maybe because no customers really want to buy it yet. Interest is not enough! No commercial aircraft is ever launched unless there is at least a few launch customers....There is a possibility NMA will never happen.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
astuteman
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:14 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
There are technical challenges, but I think the biggest challenge is the business case.


Nice to see that someone can get it right.
Boeing have identified a potential gap in the market, but have said themselves that they have not yet constructed the business case.

A number of airlines have publicly declared an interest.
Is it enough compared to the other options available?
Are they declaring interest in the same option?
Is the "gap" actually really big enough to justify the investment in a "preferred option" to fill the gap?
We don't know the answers to those.

But Boeing also have to deal with:-
the question of cost of production
the likely impact on their own models, like the 737 MAX or 787.
Will an appropriate engine be available?
Will it have the necessary SFC and operational economics?

To answer the opening poster's question, Boeing are clearly doing the right thing by not pulling the trigger until they can get all of these planets to align.

For me, it doesn't feel like a simple task at all.

They are clearly fighting hard to use their economic strength to maximise the "gap", by threatening the A330NEO
That suggests that they are not yet comfortable with some of the market parameters of the "gap".
It also suggests they don't think that MOM on its own will "kill" the A330NEO. It will need help from the 787.
(IMO it will fail in this particular task anyway, but that's just my opinion).

Contrary to the opening poster's view, I think the LAST thing Boeing need to do is rush MOM to market without having strong confidence in the business case underpinning it.
That is clearly not there yet.

Rgds
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Why is Boeing waiting to officially launch the NMA or the "797?"

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:14 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Considering all the talk about a twin aisle from airlines, that is false.

Right, all the talk.

All the talk tells me, that Boeing hasn't found what they want yet.

I am sure, Boeing will either have a solid business case or they wont launch it. Until now it was the latter as it seems...


Airlines are quite literally saying Boeing is showing a twin aisle aircraft and some like DL want to be first in line for it.

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