PlaneHunter
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Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:43 pm

The Aviation Herald reports about a very irritating incident in India. It will be interesting to see how much fuel was left.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4af4dc97&opt=0
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qf789
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Air Canada 787-9 had to declare Mayday 4 times over low fuel before given approach clearance by Indian ATC

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:46 pm

A 787-9 operated by Air Canada had to declare a Mayday 4 times on a flight to BOM due to low fuel on 19 September 17 (departed YYZ 18 September) before it was given approach clearance to HYD.

The aircraft which had been expected a flight time of 14 and half hours was airborne for about 17 hours. It is believed that the aircraft was put in a holding pattern due to a SpiceJet aircraft runway excursion shortly before the Air Canada jet was due to land at BOM.

Investigators have disclosed that a diverted Air Canada Boeing 787-9's crew had to declare a Mayday four times over a low-fuel situation before being given approach clearance to Hyderabad.
The aircraft had originally been bound for Mumbai but was shuttled between alternate airports owing to capacity problems.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-441893/
Last edited by qf789 on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spelling
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jnev3289
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 had to declare Mayday 4 times over low fuel before given approach clearance by Indian ATC

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:49 pm

qf789 wrote:
A 787-9 operated by Air Canada had to declare a Mayday 4 times on a flight to BOM due to low fuel on 19 September 17 (departed YYZ 18 September) before it was given approach clearance to HYD.

The aircraft which had been expected a flight time of 14 and half hours was airborne for about 17 hours. It is believed that the aircraft was put in a holding pattern due to a SpiceJet aircraft runway excursion shortly before the Air Canada jet was die to land at BOM.

Investigators have disclosed that a diverted Air Canada Boeing 787-9's crew had to declare a Mayday four times over a low-fuel situation before being given approach clearance to Hyderabad.
The aircraft had originally been bound for Mumbai but was shuttled between alternate airports owing to capacity problems.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-441893/

Eerie typo
 
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qf789
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 had to declare Mayday 4 times over low fuel before given approach clearance by Indian ATC

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:52 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
A 787-9 operated by Air Canada had to declare a Mayday 4 times on a flight to BOM due to low fuel on 19 September 17 (departed YYZ 18 September) before it was given approach clearance to HYD.

The aircraft which had been expected a flight time of 14 and half hours was airborne for about 17 hours. It is believed that the aircraft was put in a holding pattern due to a SpiceJet aircraft runway excursion shortly before the Air Canada jet was die to land at BOM.

Investigators have disclosed that a diverted Air Canada Boeing 787-9's crew had to declare a Mayday four times over a low-fuel situation before being given approach clearance to Hyderabad.
The aircraft had originally been bound for Mumbai but was shuttled between alternate airports owing to capacity problems.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-441893/

Eerie typo


Its been fixed now
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P1aneMad
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Somehow the resident Indian Defense Brigades will spin this incident as Air Canada's fault, the West's in general fault and definitely the 787's fault!
 
LTCM
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:31 pm

177 passengers? Am I the only one who thinks that's a little low?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:36 pm

LTCM wrote:
177 passengers? Am I the only one who thinks that's a little low?


Every flight doesn’t leave at maximum passenger capacity, some flights are full some aren’t, plain and simple.

All I have to say is what joke Indian ATC is. That plane should have been on the ground hours before that. I’m also impressed that the 787-9 tanks 17hrs of fuel for that flight. What an aircraft.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:45 pm

Be interesting to see this report when it comes out for the decision making process for HYD.

There were a lot of options closer than HYD, they could have had PNQ, BQD, GOI, AMD, IDR. If they had the fuel to hold for and hour and HYD they also would have had fuel for BHO and NAG, and if they diverted earlier than holding for an hour they also had BLR and KHI. Just north of HYD there is also the domestic airport.

But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:30 pm

If I were those pilots I would just have proceeded the landing, clearance or no clearance. They've declared an emergency, they should get top priority.
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:34 pm

zeke wrote:
Be interesting to see this report when it comes out for the decision making process for HYD.

There were a lot of options closer than HYD, they could have had PNQ, BQD, GOI, AMD, IDR. If they had the fuel to hold for and hour and HYD they also would have had fuel for BHO and NAG, and if they diverted earlier than holding for an hour they also had BLR and KHI. Just north of HYD there is also the domestic airport.

But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.


When you are put on hold and know you have enough fuel, the wisest is to hold and avoid the hassles of a diversion, but no crew expects any holding of two hours plus. Maybe should the crew have called for diversion a little earlier, say like one hour after holding but again who knows, we don't know what was happening in the cockpit and at the ATC facility
Last edited by TS-IOR on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:35 pm

zeke wrote:
Be interesting to see this report when it comes out for the decision making process for HYD.

There were a lot of options closer than HYD, they could have had PNQ, BQD, GOI, AMD, IDR. If they had the fuel to hold for and hour and HYD they also would have had fuel for BHO and NAG, and if they diverted earlier than holding for an hour they also had BLR and KHI. Just north of HYD there is also the domestic airport.

But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.


I'm no expert in Indian airspace but I have spoken with United Airlines pilots who fly to DEL and BOM and heard that some of the holding instructions that they get when there is inclement weather are very confusing. The decision to divert can be made more difficult when not understanding how long a hold will be or if there isn't a typical set of holding instructions. One pilot told me that while holding due to fog in DEL he was getting 270 degree turns at 3000 ft AGL, strange vectors and repeating instructions 2 or 3 times because they were not the type of holding instructions that North American based pilots are used to seeing. These are guys that are used to flying in and around New York and are no strangers to holding patterns. Can you corroborate or dispel that opinion?

On that night BOM was already having 30 minute holds due to the inclement weather. It is quite possible that before BOM closed due to the airplane off the runway, airplanes had already been diverting. Other airports may have been impacted. I think it is quite possible that ATC was overwhelmed by the situation.

I'll be curious to hear more about the comment that the they can continue to their filed alternate and the filed alternate is required to accept them. Apparently that didn't happen.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:38 pm

Sensible comment.....


TS-IOR wrote:
zeke wrote:
Be interesting to see this report when it comes out for the decision making process for HYD.

There were a lot of options closer than HYD, they could have had PNQ, BQD, GOI, AMD, IDR. If they had the fuel to hold for and hour and HYD they also would have had fuel for BHO and NAG, and if they diverted earlier than holding for an hour they also had BLR and KHI. Just north of HYD there is also the domestic airport.

But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.


When you are put on hold and know you have enough fuel, the wisest is to hold and avoid the hassles of a diversion, but no crew expects any holding of two hours plus Maybe should the crew have called for diversion a little earlier, say like one hour after holding but again who knows, we don't know what was happening in the cockpit and at the ATC facility
 
Passedv1
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:38 pm

Is there ATC audio/transcript anywhere?
 
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:34 pm

zeke wrote:
Be interesting to see this report when it comes out for the decision making process for HYD.

There were a lot of options closer than HYD, they could have had PNQ, BQD, GOI, AMD, IDR. If they had the fuel to hold for and hour and HYD they also would have had fuel for BHO and NAG, and if they diverted earlier than holding for an hour they also had BLR and KHI. Just north of HYD there is also the domestic airport.

But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.


We don't know why the AC crew didn't choose to divert to any number of other airports that have long enough runways for a 787-9. In a pinch, they could safely land on a 6000 foot runway when they obviously were well below MLW.

By way of example, an EK pilot made a similar decision. They had a low fuel emergency at SEA. The captain was fixated on diverting to YVR. He literally landed at YVR with like 8 minutes of fuel left (in total, not down to the reserves).

ATC offered EK to land and YYJ or YXX, both of which were at least 15nm closer than YVR. Both had runways in the proper orientation for the winds; both have sufficient length runways to safely handle a 77W, especially YXX. The Controller reiterated it to the EK captain. For some reason, the EK captain insisted on continuing to YVR despite being so marginal on fuel.

I'm not an experienced Captain, but if I were in that situation, I would have played it more safe and gone to YXX. I would get on the nearest piece of concrete I could safely land at - period.
 
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


What? That's a pretty valid reason.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:56 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
One pilot told me that while holding due to fog in DEL he was getting 270 degree turns at 3000 ft AGL, strange vectors and repeating instructions 2 or 3 times because they were not the type of holding instructions that North American based pilots are used to seeing. These are guys that are used to flying in and around New York and are no strangers to holding patterns. Can you corroborate or dispel that opinion?


It is very common for 270 degree heading changes worldwide, many airports STARs are like that, eg FRA, DXB, ATC use that technique to have multiple aircraft flying parallel and perpendicular to the final course and then just feed the in at 3-5nm spacing pulling them out as required. Some airports do it with an arc, everyone flies the arc and then get pulled off and sent to final, eg LHR, ICN.

Newbiepilot wrote:
On that night BOM was already having 30 minute holds due to the inclement weather. It is quite possible that before BOM closed due to the airplane off the runway, airplanes had already been diverting. Other airports may have been impacted. I think it is quite possible that ATC was overwhelmed by the situation


We have averaged 19 minutes into BOM over the past 90 days, 30 minutes is nothing unusual. The southwest monsoon season happens June to mid-September every year as the ITCZ moves.

Newbiepilot wrote:
I'll be curious to hear more about the comment that the they can continue to their filed alternate and the filed alternate is required to accept them. Apparently that didn't happen.


Standard ICAO, the filed alternate is required to accept you. They are not required to give you a bay, ground equipment, fuel etc. but they are required to let you land. This happens to us very often in typhoon season. They say they are full, we go there anyway hold until it’s an emergency then land.

It will be very interesting to see the decision making process for this, why did they delay diverting when there is an emergency on the ground baffles me. Basically every aircraft inbound for BOM diverted, why was this diversion such a stuff up.
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


It is a very good reason as stated

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Fuel ... ontrollers
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:03 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...
 
Boeingphan
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


Yeah that worked out well for the Chapecoense soccer team didn't it. Seems like as good of a reason as any other emergency.
 
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:13 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...


I don't understand dtw2hyd's comment. There's minimum fuel and then an emergency. From the airlines I know, if a pilot knows he is going to need to use his reserve fuel, he must declare an emergency. Minimum fuel is supposed to be declared if any delay will result in the airplane landing with less than minimum fuel. That's supposed to prevent the need to declare an emergency since the plane is supposed to get priority. Landing below minimum fuel (reserve fuel) without declaring an emergency is going to result in a discussion with the chief pilot office and probably corrective action. Landing below minimum fuel alone is probably going to result in a conversation with the chief pilot office.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:16 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...


It is kind of stupid rule, put in place to avoid airlines not carrying enough fuel.

Low of fuel is just an advisory to ATC, you have to declare MAYDAY FUEL to get priority landing. You also have to commit to an airport to declare MAYDAY FUEL.
 
kjeld0d
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:32 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...


I don't understand dtw2hyd's comment. There's minimum fuel and then an emergency. From the airlines I know, if a pilot knows he is going to need to use his reserve fuel, he must declare an emergency. Minimum fuel is supposed to be declared if any delay will result in the airplane landing with less than minimum fuel. That's supposed to prevent the need to declare an emergency since the plane is supposed to get priority. Landing below minimum fuel (reserve fuel) without declaring an emergency is going to result in a discussion with the chief pilot office and probably corrective action. Landing below minimum fuel alone is probably going to result in a conversation with the chief pilot office.


I think the comment has more to do with "foreigners" "telling india" "how to run her affairs". If india wants backwards ATC it shall have it as we are a proud country and not beholden to anyone!
 
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...


It is kind of stupid rule, put in place to avoid airlines not carrying enough fuel.

Low of fuel is just an advisory to ATC, you have to declare MAYDAY FUEL to get priority landing. You also have to commit to an airport to declare MAYDAY FUEL.


Not sure what you’re getting at but they apparently declared a fuel emergency 4x! Anywhere else, they’d be assisted. Min fuel calls are to advise ATC to try to shorten any delays as best as possible to avoid a fuel emergency which can then be a big headache for everyone.

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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:58 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
Yeah that worked out well for the Chapecoense soccer team didn't it. Seems like as good of a reason as any other emergency.


That was a very odd case of two emergencies at the same time. By the way, the plane with the team on board did declare an emergency but the other plane did earlier.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:09 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
...they apparently declared a fuel emergency 4x! .


Assuming this is coming from Indian news media

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY <call sign> we have MAYDAY FUEL

That is four times MAYDAY.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


You are quite wrong. It is a valid emergency. The point is not to blame the pilot or ATC for the mess. The point is to save souls and get them on the ground ASAP.

Land first, ask questions later. There have been crashes where pilots were reluctant to declare an emergency when low on fuel, and they should have. Read the report on the Avianca 707 crash in New York when they ran out of fuel.

Beech
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.


That seems like a pretty stupid rule...you know if you are low on fuel you probably should get preferential treatment to land/divert...


It is kind of stupid rule, put in place to avoid airlines not carrying enough fuel.

Low of fuel is just an advisory to ATC, you have to declare MAYDAY FUEL to get priority landing. You also have to commit to an airport to declare MAYDAY FUEL.

You have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop pretending you do.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:19 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
...You have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop pretending you do.


Why don't you enlighten us?
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:22 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
...they apparently declared a fuel emergency 4x! .


Assuming this is coming from Indian news media

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY <call sign> we have MAYDAY FUEL

That is four times MAYDAY.


Your dogged defense of Indian ATC just serves to make you look absurd.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:31 am

I don’t know why you guys respond to dtw2hyd. Air India could fly a 747 with 650 passengers aboard, two engines removed, flight attendant at the controls, upside down with no seat belts, while BOM ATC vectors then into an ocean and he’ll defend them to the death.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:33 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
...they apparently declared a fuel emergency 4x! .


Assuming this is coming from Indian news media

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY <call sign> we have MAYDAY FUEL

That is four times MAYDAY.


Your dogged defense of Indian ATC just serves to make you look absurd.


I am not defending anyone.

When there is a major incident in bad weather, you should not dilly dolly for 1 hour to decide to divert to your first alternate airport, while everybody else quickly grabbed available alternate airports and all those maxed out.

FR24 ADS-B data doesn't corroborate avherld's report that ATC again asked to enter another hold en route Hyderabad.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:41 am

I suspect this incident boils down to misunderstanding between AC and ATC. Unfortunately in much of the world where the first language isn't English, ATC language standards are getting worse. Pakistan, India and Singapore are just a handful of places where there have been a lot of issues lately and ICAO as per usual is dragging its feet. Comms are hunky dory with routine flights but start to unravel with non routine requests and emergencies. That's why we emphasise the need for our crews to repeat requests as many times as necessary until they're sure ATC is reading from the same page.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:04 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
That's supposed to prevent the need to declare an emergency since the plane is supposed to get priority.


Minimum fuel provides no ATC priority. http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/ ... 20fuel.pdf

Newbiepilot wrote:
That's supposed to prevent the need to declare an emergency since the plane is supposed to get priority. Landing below minimum fuel (reserve fuel) without declaring an emergency is going to result in a discussion with the chief pilot office and probably corrective action. Landing below minimum fuel alone is probably going to result in a conversation with the chief pilot office.


ICAO says the PIC should not PLAN to land with less than final reserve fuel (30 min) plus alternate fuel/isolated airport holding, no airlines fuel policy is that tight for the destination, the alternate is a very different situation. For an ETOPS enroute alternate in the event of engine out or depressurization is a minimum reserve fuel (15 min).

Ie final reserve - 30 minutes, minimum reserve 15 minutes, they are not interchangeable terms under ICAO.

Minimum fuel is when committed to land at a specific aerodrome and any change in the existing clearance may result in a landing with less than planned final reserve fuel, no priority is given as landing with final reserve is legal. Once reaching 30 minutes it’s a mayday. Landing with less than 30 minutes is what is planned for ETOPS depressurization and engine failure cases.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:10 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
You have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop pretending you do.


What he stated was correct, minimum fuel just tells ATC based on current delay information landing is expected with 30 minutes of fuel at that airport, and you have no other options. Landing with 30 minutes is perfectly legal, hence why it is not an emergency nor does ATC need to provide priority to land with anything above 30 minutes.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:12 am

Chaostheory wrote:
I suspect this incident boils down to misunderstanding between AC and ATC. Unfortunately in much of the world where the first language isn't English, ATC language standards are getting worse. Pakistan, India and Singapore are just a handful of places where there have been a lot of issues lately and ICAO as per usual is dragging its feet. Comms are hunky dory with routine flights but start to unravel with non routine requests and emergencies. That's why we emphasise the need for our crews to repeat requests as many times as necessary until they're sure ATC is reading from the same page.


I haven't found ATC in India particularly hard to understand due to the language barrier when listening. The smooth flowing nature of English spoken with an Indian accent isn't always the easiest to understand on a radio for an outsider but I don't think language standards are the problem. Other countries are far worse.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:14 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
.... It's the one former British colony that seems to never have any actual rules they follow.


AFAIK, low on fuel is not a valid reason to declare an emergency. That is the rule.

This may be the rule in India, but definitely not to the rest of the world. If you can't declear mayday when you run low on fuel, are you expecting a crash?!?! AV52 anyone?

Maybe the most ridiculous thing I've read for the day.

Michael
 
flight152
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:35 am

zeke wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
You have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop pretending you do.


What he stated was correct, minimum fuel just tells ATC based on current delay information landing is expected with 30 minutes of fuel at that airport, and you have no other options. Landing with 30 minutes is perfectly legal, hence why it is not an emergency nor does ATC need to provide priority to land with anything above 30 minutes.

We’re not talking about minimum fuel, rather declaring an emergency which DOES get you priority handling. Period.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:53 am

flight152 wrote:
We’re not talking about minimum fuel, rather declaring an emergency which DOES get you priority handling. Period.


Get with the program and read what was quoted before you crack out a reply which is not true.

Jetblueguy22 said that user had no idea what he was talking about, when what he posted was correct.

“It is kind of stupid rule, put in place to avoid airlines not carrying enough fuel.

Low of fuel is just an advisory to ATC, you have to declare MAYDAY FUEL to get priority landing. You also have to commit to an airport to declare MAYDAY FUEL.”

Do you fly an airliner ? Do you know what happens when you declare minimum fuel or mayday fuel ? You get a visit from the CAA after you shut down and you have to prove to them you are actually in that state. Been a number of instances in the past 12 months where aircraft have been making these calls when they were not in the condition.

The real issue here is why did they hang around BOM for an hour holding before diverting, and why was HYD chosen as there were other closer alternates.

India is not some backwater country they have datalink, radar, and vhf coverage everywhere over land, also one of the few countries to have their own GNSS. It is very busy airspace, with most of the larger Indian airports extremely busy all day round including late at night.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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ksfo777
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:10 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
...You have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop pretending you do.


Why don't you enlighten us?


It's clear as day you are an Indian national and an apologist with ZERO knowledge about aviation. Are you 12? Have you ever piloted a plane?

Well a lot of us have. What do you think would happen when the airplane run out of fuel? It's a very IDIOTIC comment to say fuel is not an emergency.

I concur with many here, India is very backwards. Infrastructure being a glaring problem. I hate flying into India and would avoid as much as I can.
 
Mir
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:15 am

zeke wrote:
But I guess the first mistake was not continuing to their filed alternate and declaring an emergency, they are required to accept them at the filed alternate.


If the Avherald story is accurate, they did not accept them at their planned alternate until they declared an emergency. So not a mistake at all.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:21 am

ksfo777 wrote:
I concur with many here, India is very backwards. Infrastructure being a glaring problem. I hate flying into India and would avoid as much as I can.


India is not backwards at all. I have seen more improvements at BOM than major US gateways esp in the past 5 years. The new terminal is very good.

There have been numerous occasions over the years where a single runway airport was closed in unforeseen circumstances, it is never an easy for ATC to handle their normal load plus all the diversions.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 am

Mir wrote:
If the Avherald story is accurate, they did not accept them at their planned alternate until they declared an emergency. So not a mistake at all.


HYD was not the planned alternate
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Mir
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:22 am

zeke wrote:
Mir wrote:
If the Avherald story is accurate, they did not accept them at their planned alternate until they declared an emergency. So not a mistake at all.


HYD was not the planned alternate


And the reason they ended up at HYD is that their planned alternate did not accept them.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Finn350
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:42 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Boeingphan wrote:
Yeah that worked out well for the Chapecoense soccer team didn't it. Seems like as good of a reason as any other emergency.


That was a very odd case of two emergencies at the same time. By the way, the plane with the team on board did declare an emergency but the other plane did earlier.


Yeah, the plane with the team declared fuel emergency ONE MINUTE before fuel exhaustion, which is a gross violation of aviation rules to put it mildly.

At 21:49, the crew requested priority for landing because of unspecified "problems with fuel", and were told to expect an approach clearance in "approximately seven minutes". Minutes later, at 21:52, they declared a fuel emergency and requested immediate descent clearance and "vectors" for approach. At 21:53, with the aircraft nearing the end of its second lap of the holding pattern, engines 3 and 4 (the two engines on the right wing) flamed out due to fuel exhaustion; engines 1 and 2 flamed out two minutes later, at which point the flight data recorder (FDR) stopped operating.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaMia_Flight_2933
 
hayzel777
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:05 am

Chaostheory wrote:
I suspect this incident boils down to misunderstanding between AC and ATC. Unfortunately in much of the world where the first language isn't English, ATC language standards are getting worse. Pakistan, India and Singapore are just a handful of places where there have been a lot of issues lately and ICAO as per usual is dragging its feet. Comms are hunky dory with routine flights but start to unravel with non routine requests and emergencies. That's why we emphasise the need for our crews to repeat requests as many times as necessary until they're sure ATC is reading from the same page.

Singapore?! I thought there main language was English?

What happened at SIN?
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:17 am

You only hold for an hour if you think there is a good chance to get into your destination or have a solid alternate that will definitely be open.

Now, the question is did the original alternate airport issue NOTAMs about its unavailability as an alternate that the dispatcher should have been aware of? When did the crew start asking the dispatcher or the alternate airport ATC questions about its availability?

India is well known as a place where crews do not like diverting as its a third world country with poor hotels and other amenities outside of the major cities. Also, there are many horror stories that float around airlines about how badly some of the airports in India handle diversions.

Until we know exactly what info ATC was giving to Air Canada dispatch and pilots and when the alternate became unavailable due to ATC capacity issues, thats when we can start assigning blame. This highlights a problem that many airlines have in operating to places where all the alternate airports are not places they regularly serve. In places where the airline has regular operations, they can more easily determine whether an alternate can handle a diversion. In a place like India where only one or two airports have regular service, it can be a challenge to get good information outside of the NOTAMs.

Diversions on these longer flights even in places that have first world facilities are a challenge due to flight crew duty limitations. If you divert and are out of hours, you are stuck there until you get your legal rest. In a place like India, I am sure that contributed to the crews decision to try to hold for an hour. Much better to get to your planned destination than to worry about where you might have to sleep.
 
747megatop
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:27 am

zeke wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:
I'll be curious to hear more about the comment that the they can continue to their filed alternate and the filed alternate is required to accept them. Apparently that didn't happen.


Standard ICAO, the filed alternate is required to accept you. They are not required to give you a bay, ground equipment, fuel etc. but they are required to let you land. This happens to us very often in typhoon season. They say they are full, we go there anyway hold until it’s an emergency then land.

It will be very interesting to see the decision making process for this, why did they delay diverting when there is an emergency on the ground baffles me. Basically every aircraft inbound for BOM diverted, why was this diversion such a stuff up.

And what if the alternate cannot accept them due to a sudden unforeseen emergency and the incoming diversion is critically low on fuel? Has this ever happened (or close to happening) before?
 
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enzo011
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:35 am

eamondzhang wrote:
This may be the rule in India, but definitely not to the rest of the world. If you can't declear mayday when you run low on fuel, are you expecting a crash?!?! AV52 anyone?

Maybe the most ridiculous thing I've read for the day.



ksfo777 wrote:
It's clear as day you are an Indian national and an apologist with ZERO knowledge about aviation. Are you 12? Have you ever piloted a plane?

Well a lot of us have. What do you think would happen when the airplane run out of fuel? It's a very IDIOTIC comment to say fuel is not an emergency.

I concur with many here, India is very backwards. Infrastructure being a glaring problem. I hate flying into India and would avoid as much as I can.



Maybe you guys can clear this up as you seem to be taking on the poster over a different issue. Is being low on fuel enough reason to declare an emergency? Or is there different stages of low fuel or just one? What is the definition of low fuel?

I don't think anyone would disagree that running out of fuel is an emergency and the aircraft needs to be on the ground as soon as possible, but that is further down the process to just being low on fuel, right?


MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
India is well known as a place where crews do not like diverting as its a third world country with poor hotels and other amenities outside of the major cities. Also, there are many horror stories that float around airlines about how badly some of the airports in India handle diversions.


So its okay for a pilot to come close to running out of fuel because he doesn't want to go to a city that doesn't have good hotels? Surely safety comes first and the comfort of the crews stay comes second?
 
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OA940
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:35 am

Nice professionalism. Sorry but I think this is completely unacceptable.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
shankly
Posts: 1287
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 vs. ATC: Clearance to land only after fourth (!) mayday call

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:43 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
...they apparently declared a fuel emergency 4x! .


Assuming this is coming from Indian news media

MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY <call sign> we have MAYDAY FUEL

That is four times MAYDAY.


"MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" is actually the ICAO standard, representing a single mayday call.
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