santi319
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:31 pm

I don't see why not, LHR-HNL-SYD is roughly 2,000 more than the nonstop, and only 1,100 than the LHr-DXB-SYD one.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:32 am

You guys are comparing seats capacity like its the most important.

When a plane is 10% smaller or bigger it makes no difference when you have a dozen flights a week on a route. Airlines purchase on per seat costs. They can fly more smaller planes or less bigger planes.

I think the 787 is now proving itself to have better fuel burn and lower costs than expected.

The 787-10 has the best short/medium haul efficiency that airlines will want it so badly that they will upgauge.

The 787-9 for long haul and the 787-10 for medium haul is the most efficient combo for RASM, CASM, simplified training and fleet management. In hindsite most airlines would have purchased this combo, so of course we will see buyers regret.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13156
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:57 am

Stitch wrote:
What more leverage does HA need? When Airbus (effectively) cancelled the A350-800, HA could have walked away right there and ordered the 787. Instead, they ordered more A330-200s and launched the A330-800. I expect they received some exceptionally good pricing from Airbus to do so and Leeham.net says they had an Exit Clause that allowed them to walk-away from the A330-800 order. So I don't see this as a ploy by HA to try and get Airbus to shave a few million more off the per-frame contract price.

A number of folks have brought up possible financial concerns with being the only operator of a fleet that consists of eight planes. If the "walk-away clause" actually exists, it might be tied to the number of sales for the type.

HA will need financing guarantees. The A338 will have no resale other than scrap.

But I wonder if HA is looking for something else? One article does not mean this is certain.


But Boeing would only be increasing 787 production for new orders... Who?

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:16 am

Negotiating in public seems the most likely here. HA won't want the problems of a new aircraft family in the fleet, but if they can still take the aircraft they ordered with some cast-iron John Leahy style guarantees than why would they not just go forward? The parts tree has probably been active for some time now for the A338.

The ability to have a residual guarantee so that at the end of the lease or after a set time they can cash in a guarantee would make it a deal worth having. The A338 is also far from dead; once it is flying and the numbers come in then it might well see additional sales. There's one carrier I can see kicking the tyres for a fleet of A338 in the near future if the deal is right. Thomas Cook have some ageing A332s to turn over and seem to like the short body version. It could also replace all the 763s at Condor.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2081
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:37 am

Channex757 wrote:
Negotiating in public seems the most likely here. HA won't want the problems of a new aircraft family in the fleet, but if they can still take the aircraft they ordered with some cast-iron John Leahy style guarantees than why would they not just go forward? The parts tree has probably been active for some time now for the A338.

The ability to have a residual guarantee so that at the end of the lease or after a set time they can cash in a guarantee would make it a deal worth having. The A338 is also far from dead; once it is flying and the numbers come in then it might well see additional sales. There's one carrier I can see kicking the tyres for a fleet of A338 in the near future if the deal is right. Thomas Cook have some ageing A332s to turn over and seem to like the short body version. It could also replace all the 763s at Condor.


In the 1990s HA added DC10s to replace DC8s.
In the 2000s HA added 767s to replace DC10s.
In the 2010s HA added A330s to supplement 767s and replace some
Soon HA is adding A321s to replace 767s

Could HA be looking to add 787s in the 2020s? Them seem to add roughly one brand new type per decade. New types are nothing new for Hawaiian.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
Stitch wrote:
What more leverage does HA need? When Airbus (effectively) cancelled the A350-800, HA could have walked away right there and ordered the 787. Instead, they ordered more A330-200s and launched the A330-800. I expect they received some exceptionally good pricing from Airbus to do so and Leeham.net says they had an Exit Clause that allowed them to walk-away from the A330-800 order. So I don't see this as a ploy by HA to try and get Airbus to shave a few million more off the per-frame contract price.

A number of folks have brought up possible financial concerns with being the only operator of a fleet that consists of eight planes. If the "walk-away clause" actually exists, it might be tied to the number of sales for the type.

HA will need financing guarantees. The A338 will have no resale other than scrap.

But I wonder if HA is looking for something else? One article does not mean this is certain.


But Boeing would only be increasing 787 production for new orders... Who?

Lightsaber

Yes, one of the reasons why airlines are looking at the 787 again at this moment is the availability of near term delivery slots. Previously, it was hard for airlines to order the 787 because delivery is usually more than 2 years away. Now, they can have their new planes in 2 years or less.

Another possibility is that HA, like many airlines in the US, are considering postponing deliveries of new aircraft. Perhaps. those new A321/332s are underutilised and they might want to sweat them a bit more. With low fuel prices, many US airlines are trying to push down CAPEX and preserve their capital for other projects. Airline managements are keeping an eye on investor returns.
 
alyusuph
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:46 am

Why is the B787 suddenly becoming a popular aircraft? Do we have any firm data from early C checks and D checks on the achievements in relation to promises provided by Boeing on the fuselage? And how about promises on fuel burn and the savings on mandatory checks?
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:03 am

alyusuph wrote:
Why is the B787 suddenly becoming a popular aircraft? Do we have any firm data from early C checks and D checks on the achievements in relation to promises provided by Boeing on the fuselage? And how about promises on fuel burn and the savings on mandatory checks?


My guess would be, there's been price cuts for the 787. Lower maintenance costs with composites and prices are coming down with the advancements of production/manufacture. Especially with 3D printing.
Good time to bring the A358 back IMO.

Both Trent engines seem to be contributing to the lower maintenance costs too. As does overall program maturity.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:55 am

Delivery slots, better pricing and a delayed A330NEO which seems to have a larger performance delta to the 787 than expected.
 
amadorE175
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:00 am

seahawk wrote:
Delivery slots, better pricing and a delayed A330NEO which seems to have a larger performance delta to the 787 than expected.


Can we really say that before the A330NEO flies for the first time? I know folks have projections but it seems a bit premature.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:36 am

The delay has surely not fuelled confidence.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 5278
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:41 am

seahawk wrote:
Delivery slots


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

This is about availability, availability, and availability. Watch 787 book/bill ratios to be right around 1 for a few more years, until demand for this iteration of 787 is really satisfied. (There are still quite a few 77Es out there which 789 and 359 will compete to replace, and then there will be opportunities for 78X to replace early 333s.)

seahawk wrote:
better pricing


:shakehead: Boeing has been pretty consistent in refusing to offer the sort of discounts that it offered early in the program (and that are available now if you sign on the dotted line for 77W/Ls). Production costs are absolutely coming down but Boeing wants to apply the savings to deferred costs, not discounts.

seahawk wrote:
and a delayed A330NEO which seems to have a larger performance delta to the 787 than expected.


Don't know about any performance issue. There are two issues with the A330neo at this point: the delay (which made a few more 787 slots more attractive) and the relatively poor sales to date, which increase lessor/lender risk and therefore financing costs.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:08 am

Regarding the prices, there seems to be a bit more wiggle room than before. Not heavy discounts, but a bit that can make the difference especially with faster delivery.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:33 am

amadorE175 wrote:
Can we really say that before the A330NEO flies for the first time? I know folks have projections but it seems a bit premature.

I honestly can't see how the A330NEO is competitive even on short trips.

Weight and dimensions of the A330-900 closely match the 787-9. Wing size, length, max takeoff weight are all within 1-2%. The A330 even has a bigger fuel capacity.

The downside is the A330 can only realistically use 8 abreast seating. The extra foot in width in the 787 makes 9 abreast acceptable.

Even on short stage lengths how could the A330NEO be more efficient? Surely the engines are at most 1% more efficient. That can't make up for having 10% more seats. The "CASM advantage" of the A330NEO must be when using a 9 abreast cabin.

The A330 at 9 abreast would use the smallest seat of any widebody aircraft. This is a massive reduction in comfort levels. This could be another reason we are hearing these rumours with HAL. They may have calculated the economics of the A330NEO at 9 abreast. Now they are planning the cabin fitout of their first aircraft they realise it is too tight for the their application.

I just feel the A330NEO has been sold using false advertising with economics of an unrealistic 9 abreast cabin. Boeing could have been marketing 767's with 8 abreast cabins and its economics would have been great too.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:52 am

seahawk wrote:
The delay has surely not fuelled confidence.

I doubt the delays are a serious issue as the Trent 1000 TEN was the main cause of the delay. Trent 7000 is just a bleed air version of the Trent 1000 TEN and B787 versions with this engine are also similarly delayed. Delivery slots are more important to airlines - that was why the A330Ceos (with their early delivery slots) were selling well despite the B787 launch.

The recent announcement of the increased rate of production for the B787 has sparked off new interest because airlines can now get their aircraft in 2019 instead of post 2020. Airlines now have an alternative, if they want early delivery slots.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:05 am

On the 787 you have an engine choice, so even in case RR fumbles, you have an option, with the GTF problems fresh in the minds of airlines, this is a topic again.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:34 am

jupiter2 wrote:
.... than having to maintain two separate, but over lapping wide body aircraft lines. But, hey they are stuck with them now, it's Airbus' cash they are burning, so in reality it means little to me, except another aircraft type to try and photograph.


Oh, really? Just like the 777 and 787, you mean?.. sorry, but couldn't resist this. Don't tell me the Boeing families are that different...
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:38 am

RJMAZ wrote:
amadorE175 wrote:
That can't make up for having 10% more seats. The "CASM advantage" of the A330NEO must be when using a 9 abreast cabin.

The A330 at 9 abreast would use the smallest seat of any widebody aircraft. This is a massive reduction in comfort levels. This could be another reason we are hearing these rumours with HAL. They may have calculated the economics of the A330NEO at 9 abreast. Now they are planning the cabin fitout of their first aircraft they realise it is too tight for the their application.

I just feel the A330NEO has been sold using false advertising with economics of an unrealistic 9 abreast cabin. Boeing could have been marketing 767's with 8 abreast cabins and its economics would have been great too.



I think it would safe to say you are assuming too much here.... Airbus have never based any of their PR statistics for the A330 based on 9-abreast seating. Never.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:42 am

RJMAZ wrote:
amadorE175 wrote:
Can we really say that before the A330NEO flies for the first time? I know folks have projections but it seems a bit premature.

I honestly can't see how the A330NEO is competitive even on short trips.

Weight and dimensions of the A330-900 closely match the 787-9. Wing size, length, max takeoff weight are all within 1-2%. The A330 even has a bigger fuel capacity.

The downside is the A330 can only realistically use 8 abreast seating. The extra foot in width in the 787 makes 9 abreast acceptable.

Even on short stage lengths how could the A330NEO be more efficient? Surely the engines are at most 1% more efficient. That can't make up for having 10% more seats. The "CASM advantage" of the A330NEO must be when using a 9 abreast cabin.

The A330 at 9 abreast would use the smallest seat of any widebody aircraft. This is a massive reduction in comfort levels. This could be another reason we are hearing these rumours with HAL. They may have calculated the economics of the A330NEO at 9 abreast. Now they are planning the cabin fitout of their first aircraft they realise it is too tight for the their application.

I just feel the A330NEO has been sold using false advertising with economics of an unrealistic 9 abreast cabin. Boeing could have been marketing 767's with 8 abreast cabins and its economics would have been great too.


if they need 9 abreast they could go back to the 359/358, more space than the 788/9.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:59 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I honestly can't see how the A330NEO is competitive even on short trips.

Weight and dimensions of the A330-900 closely match the 787-9. Wing size, length, max takeoff weight are all within 1-2%. The A330 even has a bigger fuel capacity.

The downside is the A330 can only realistically use 8 abreast seating. The extra foot in width in the 787 makes 9 abreast acceptable.

Even on short stage lengths how could the A330NEO be more efficient? Surely the engines are at most 1% more efficient. That can't make up for having 10% more seats. The "CASM advantage" of the A330NEO must be when using a 9 abreast cabin.

The A330 at 9 abreast would use the smallest seat of any widebody aircraft. This is a massive reduction in comfort levels. This could be another reason we are hearing these rumours with HAL. They may have calculated the economics of the A330NEO at 9 abreast. Now they are planning the cabin fitout of their first aircraft they realise it is too tight for the their application.

I just feel the A330NEO has been sold using false advertising with economics of an unrealistic 9 abreast cabin. Boeing could have been marketing 767's with 8 abreast cabins and its economics would have been great too.


Wow, that is some accusation that you are making. Airbus is lying about the A330 and is using 9-abreast seating for economics but is marketing the aircraft at 8-abreast for comfort. Do I have that right?

Do yourself a favour and check how an airline uses the 789 and A333 in their fleet. We have 2 examples to show how it is possible that the A330 can compete with the 787 when the A330 is more comfortable for most of the passengers.

Have a look at Virgin Atlantic. They have the 789 and the A333 at the same capacity. Both have 264 seats but the A330 has more premium seats that could make more money.

Virgin A330-300

Virgin 789

And here we have Etihad Airways that operate the 789 and A333 in three classes so a direct comparison is easy to make. They have similar premium seats, although the 787 will be more comfortable in J than the A330. For those 28 seats in the 787 there is an advantage over the A330. Once again both aircraft will have the same amount of seats installed, 231, but the A330 will have 4 more J seats and 4 less Y seats.

Etihad 789

Etihad A330-300

The difference in length between the A333 and the 789 (A333 is 0.86m longer than the 789) is less than the difference between the 788 and the A332 (A332 is 2.1m longer). I don't think there is a direct comparison of an airline operating both the A332 and the 788, but it looks like it could be possible to have similar seating in the A332 and 788, if not more seats in the A332 in comparative seating. I think a lot of it has to do with the way Airbus has its cabin configured. There is less space used for galleys and more at the front and back as opposed to the 787. That is how, even with one more seat per row, the A330 can compete against the 787 regarding capacity.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25572
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:24 am

seahawk wrote:
Delivery slots, better pricing and a delayed A330NEO which seems to have a larger performance delta to the 787 than expected.


You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. The aerodynamics of the A330neo can only be confirmed during test flying, and the Trent 7000 is fully up to spec as has been confirmed by ground testing. The fuel burn data will have to be confirmed by during test flying, but the baseline is certainly in line with expectations.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:25 am

seahawk wrote:
On the 787 you have an engine choice, so even in case RR fumbles, you have an option, with the GTF problems fresh in the minds of airlines, this is a topic again.

I think that the days of having engine choices for lower volume production aircraft are gone due to economies of scale.

Only the B737 and A320 families can have that luxury. In some ways, having only the LEAP engine on the B737 Max may have been a good thing as a lot more customers will be using this engine. So the incentive for CFM to get the engine right is immense. With a huge installed user base, further development is more or less guaranteed as any improvements will result in benefits for many customers, thus generating even more orders.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:26 am

It is just vibes in the industry. Airbus needs test flight data soon and it better be good.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:27 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The downside is the A330 can only realistically use 8 abreast seating. The extra foot in width in the 787 makes 9 abreast acceptable.

But not for economy class passengers. I will always prefer 2-4-2 seating over 3-3-3. I go out of my way to book flights on aircraft with that configuration. It is just so much more comfortable.

Maybe Hawaiian acknowledges that. ;)
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:27 am

KarelXWB wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Delivery slots, better pricing and a delayed A330NEO which seems to have a larger performance delta to the 787 than expected.


You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. The aerodynamics of the A330neo can only be confirmed during test flying, and the Trent 7000 is fully up to spec as has been confirmed by ground testing. The fuel burn data will have to be confirmed by during test flying, but the baseline is certainly in line with expectations.

We cannot disregard the data coming out of the B787 too - there are many reports that the fuel burn is better than promised.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25572
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:30 am

flee wrote:
We cannot disregard the data coming out of the B787 too - there are many reports that the fuel burn is better than promised.


The data has been known for years as the 787 entered service in 2011.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:31 am

MartijnNL wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
The downside is the A330 can only realistically use 8 abreast seating. The extra foot in width in the 787 makes 9 abreast acceptable.

But not for economy class passengers. I will always prefer 2-4-2 seating over 3-3-3. I go out of my way to book flights on aircraft with that configuration. It is just so much more comfortable.

Maybe Hawaiian acknowledges that. ;)

Yes, travellers need to be careful when booking economy seats.

I think the 9 abreast on the B787 is only OK if you do not take flights more than 4 hours. For real seat comfort on flights over 4 hours, it is better to take the A330 with 8 abreast seating or the A350/B777 with 9 abreast seating.
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:58 am

oldannyboy wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
.... than having to maintain two separate, but over lapping wide body aircraft lines. But, hey they are stuck with them now, it's Airbus' cash they are burning, so in reality it means little to me, except another aircraft type to try and photograph.


Oh, really? Just like the 777 and 787, you mean?.. sorry, but couldn't resist this. Don't tell me the Boeing families are that different...


Well nothing like the 330NEO and the 350. Boeing offer step increases in capacity in the 787 versions, maybe the 787-10 has a similar capacity to the 778, but the 778 isn't aimed at the same markets the 787-10 is. Where as the 330 NEO is overlapping with the 359 at the top end of the 330 and affectively was the death knell of the 358. What I am saying is that if Airbus had stuck with the 358, they would've had a more versatile family while not having to produce a separate wide body line, surely that would've been more cost affective for Airbus. Will be interesting to see where Boeing position the M.O.M. capacity wise to bridge the gap from the 737 to the 787.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:01 am

I think many people overstress fuel consumption when comparing economics of different aircraft. I think we can assume that factory new A339 lease cost is about 200000$ lower per month than 789. If 789 fly 15 hours every day, it use about 2500 tons fuel, which cost today 1,25 million$. If A339 use 5% more per seat mile, it cover only 62500$ of 789s extra lease cost. So 789 operator has to still save 137500$/month from other costs, or get extra revenue somehow..
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25572
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:06 am

jupiter2 wrote:
Where as the 330 NEO is overlapping with the 359 at the top end of the 330 and affectively was the death knell of the 358


Actually no, the A358 was long dead before the A330neo was offered. Sales campaigns stopped in 2009 as the project was put on hold. The A330neo was launched 5 years later, in 2014.

What I am saying is that if Airbus had stuck with the 358, they would've had a more versatile family while not having to produce a separate wide body line


And yet the market didn't want the A358 and customers asked Airbus to re-engine the A330.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5716
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 am

I think the A330NEO needs to fly soon, it should calm down the current customers and attract more.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:14 am

trex8 wrote:
17 feet extra fuselage only weighs 2000lb more??? That cant be correct. Airbus should be subcontracted by every otherOEM to do their stretches!
According to this its more like 10000lbs+ . http://www.team.aero/images/aviation_da ... e_A330.pdf


For a very long time the -200 to -300 delta was given as ~~4000kg. ( 124t to 128t ). a realistic delta IMHO.
Recent ups and down are probably more centered in different cabin arrangements than anything else.

-900/-300 is rather similar size to the 789
BUT
788 is smaller than A332/8 and also has less structure ( as the 789 is a _beefed up_ stretch ).
Murphy is an optimist
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:26 am

And yet the market didn't want the A358 and customers asked Airbus to re-engine the A330.[/quote]

That has gone well sales wise hasn't it so far :roll: Are you sure about that cancellation date for the 358 ? The date I can see was December 2014, when the 330NEO was launched, so Airbus pushed the 330NEO to effectively kill off the 358 and commit themselves to doubling up. Would've been better off finding ways to make the 358 lighter and offer the one family.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:41 am

jupiter2 wrote:

That has gone well sales wise hasn't it so far :roll: Are you sure about that cancellation date for the 358 ? The date I can see was December 2014, when the 330NEO was launched, so Airbus pushed the 330NEO to effectively kill off the 358 and commit themselves to doubling up. Would've been better off finding ways to make the 358 lighter and offer the one family.


The A330neo has sold about 200 frames, not too bad to start with.

Karel is right or else close enough, Airbus and the airlines started converting A350-800 orders (mostly to A350-900s) long before the A330neo came about.

Well nothing like the 330NEO and the 350. Boeing offer step increases in capacity in the 787 versions, maybe the 787-10 has a similar capacity to the 778, but the 778 isn't aimed at the same markets the 787-10 is. Where as the 330 NEO is overlapping with the 359 at the top end of the 330 and affectively was the death knell of the 358. What I am saying is that if Airbus had stuck with the 358, they would've had a more versatile family while not having to produce a separate wide body line, surely that would've been more cost affective for Airbus. Will be interesting to see where Boeing position the M.O.M. capacity wise to bridge the gap from the 737 to the 787.


The A330 is a money-maker for Airbus, so if it's still making money and getting orders then why would they stop it?

What makes the 778 'not aimed at the same markets as the 787-10' but the A330neo 'overlapping with the A350'?
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am

jupiter2 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
.... than having to maintain two separate, but over lapping wide body aircraft lines. But, hey they are stuck with them now, it's Airbus' cash they are burning, so in reality it means little to me, except another aircraft type to try and photograph.


Oh, really? Just like the 777 and 787, you mean?.. sorry, but couldn't resist this. Don't tell me the Boeing families are that different...


Well nothing like the 330NEO and the 350. Boeing offer step increases in capacity in the 787 versions, maybe the 787-10 has a similar capacity to the 778, but the 778 isn't aimed at the same markets the 787-10 is. Where as the 330 NEO is overlapping with the 359 at the top end of the 330 and affectively was the death knell of the 358. What I am saying is that if Airbus had stuck with the 358, they would've had a more versatile family while not having to produce a separate wide body line, surely that would've been more cost affective for Airbus. Will be interesting to see where Boeing position the M.O.M. capacity wise to bridge the gap from the 737 to the 787.


Sorry, but no. I beg to differ, and while I still fully respect your own personal opinion, I fail to see how the A330neo (800&900) overlap with a [significantly bigger, heavier and wider] A350, while the Boeing twins don't... ? I mean, the 778-10 is FULLY in 777 territory, with the -9 being VERY close, and the fuselage diameter difference is precisely that which divides the two Airbus products...
I think that the A358 was a bit of doomed proposition right from the start (a bit of heavy shrunk? kind of what the 777-100 was), while the lighter, narrower and already existing 330 frame can do exactly that job with a distinctive advantage. Besides, people seem to forget that the A330neo will have A LOT of commonality with the current A330ceos.....
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25572
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:44 am

jupiter2 wrote:
That has gone well sales wise hasn't it so far :roll:


I'd argue that roughly 200 orders is a solid number for a new program.

Don't be too blinded by the huge 787/A350 backlogs. Those backlogs mainly exist because the programs were dramatically delayed, hence orders kept building up.

Are you sure about that cancellation date for the 358 ? The date I can see was December 2014, when the 330NEO was launched, so Airbus pushed the 330NEO to effectively kill off the 358 and commit themselves to doubling up. Would've been better off finding ways to make the 358 lighter and offer the one family.


This has been discussion widely on a.net: Airbus had put the A350-800 on hold in 2009. Development and sale campaigns were dropped, no further effort was done and customers started converting to the larger A350-900. Airbus just kept the A350-800 in its portfolio because a few customers didn't cancel or convert the outstanding orders.

Even after the A330neo launch in 2014, the A350-800 remains in Airbus' portfolio for the same reason. And everyone knows it won't get built.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4404
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:07 am

KarelXWB wrote:
And yet the market didn't want the A358 and customers asked Airbus to re-engine the A330.


Looks more like Airbus doesn't like A358.
Customers have been continuously moved away from the smallest XWB model.
Weren't that mostly retained "in for the ride" customers from the Mk1 offer?
( The Mk1 didn't really die on lack of customers more by "real hardware" can't compete with a "dreamscape".)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6051
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:50 am

IMO one difference between the A350-800 and the A330-800 is, that the A330-800 will be the base for the future MRTT and the Base for the continuation of the A330 freighter. So declining numbers of passenger A330-800 orders will not lead to the A330-800 being dropped even if HA switches its order now. Their will be a live for the A330-800 apart from being a passenger aircraft. And IMO Airbus will change all the production over to the neo in the not to far future.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1738
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:53 am

MrHMSH wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
The A330 is a money-maker for Airbus, so if it's still making money and getting orders then why would they stop it?


Importantly the A330neo also uses a separate production line to that of the A350XWB, so every A330 sold does not impede sales of A359's or A35K's.

Had the A358 been continued it would have been fighting for production slots.. this is not the case with the A330.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4548
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:54 am

Logically, I see HA converting their A338neos to the A359.

The only way I see Boeing winning this order for 25-30 B789s is if they submit a highly attractive price point for such a big B789 order which includes buying off HA's A332 fleet and paying the penalty to cancel their pending Airbus WB order.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6051
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:01 pm

behramjee wrote:
Logically, I see HA converting their A338neos to the A359.

The only way I see Boeing winning this order for 25-30 B789s is if they submit a highly attractive price point for such a big B789 order which includes buying off HA's A332 fleet and paying the penalty to cancel their pending Airbus WB order.


Why do you see the need for HA to switch? Yes, if it is a range question, they could switch to the A350, but Airbus offering a 251 t version of the A330-800 would offer a similar range.
The 787-9 or 787-8 do not offer more range than the A330-800 in the 242 t version.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:28 pm

enzo011 wrote:
[Wow, that is some accusation that you are making. Airbus is lying about the A330 and is using 9-abreast seating for economics but is marketing the aircraft at 8-abreast for comfort. Do I have that right?.

Yes. Its the only explanation. The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast. Its CASM advantage must be calculated when using 9 abreast. The CASM advantage is said to be on short flights which means lots of economy seats. The 787-9 has more cabin area than the A330-900.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/AirAs ... 0-300.php#

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Same layout and number of seats. The 787 has significantly better comfort in this comparison. If the A330 had 8 abreast for the full length of the aircraft it has 10% less seats. I don't understand how the A330 could have better CASM on short domestic flights with an 8 abreast domestic cabin. Same weights with 10% less seats.
 
Jayafe
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:26 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Yes. Its the only explanation.


RJMAZ wrote:
... I don't understand ...


Yes, you indeed look confused. I strongly suggest checking your facts to understand better, as airlines do.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:43 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
[Wow, that is some accusation that you are making. Airbus is lying about the A330 and is using 9-abreast seating for economics but is marketing the aircraft at 8-abreast for comfort. Do I have that right?.

Yes. Its the only explanation. The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast. Its CASM advantage must be calculated when using 9 abreast. The CASM advantage is said to be on short flights which means lots of economy seats. The 787-9 has more cabin area than the A330-900.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/AirAs ... 0-300.php#

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Same layout and number of seats. The 787 has significantly better comfort in this comparison. If the A330 had 8 abreast for the full length of the aircraft it has 10% less seats. I don't understand how the A330 could have better CASM on short domestic flights with an 8 abreast domestic cabin. Same weights with 10% less seats.


The A330-300 is nowhere near 10% smaller than the 787-9. They're almost identical for area, the A330 is a touch longer but narrower.

Totally fair comparison, a Premium configured aircraft for a premium airline against an economy configured aircraft for a low-cost airline.

The A330 is marketed and sold at 8 abreast, and the vast majority of A330s have 8 seats per row in economy. Unless you can find a statement from an airline saying that the economics are not as good as promised then you have absolutely no leg to stand on. If it were the case you wouldn't have to look far.

CASM doesn't just mean operating costs, it also means ownership/capital costs. When the low cost of acquiring/leasing and early availability of A330s is factored in, and especially in an environment where fuel prices are relatively low, it competes with the 787 on many short and medium haul routes, which is an easy explanation as to why so many A330s have been sold since the 787 launched and since it has entered service.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 14778
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:47 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast.


No it isn't :shakehead:

8 abreast is the standard economy configuration for the A330. Only a small number of holiday and LLC type airlines cram 9 abreast in an A330. The vast majority of A330s are operated with 8 abreast in economy.

SQ's A333 seatmap is much more typical than the AirAsia X example you selected.
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Singa ... 30-300.php

Or, indeed, American Airlines:
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... 30_300.php
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:00 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
[Wow, that is some accusation that you are making. Airbus is lying about the A330 and is using 9-abreast seating for economics but is marketing the aircraft at 8-abreast for comfort. Do I have that right?.

Yes. Its the only explanation. The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast. Its CASM advantage must be calculated when using 9 abreast. The CASM advantage is said to be on short flights which means lots of economy seats. The 787-9 has more cabin area than the A330-900.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/AirAs ... 0-300.php#

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Same layout and number of seats. The 787 has significantly better comfort in this comparison. If the A330 had 8 abreast for the full length of the aircraft it has 10% less seats. I don't understand how the A330 could have better CASM on short domestic flights with an 8 abreast domestic cabin. Same weights with 10% less seats.

A totally misleading and useless comparison - AirAsia X is a ULCC whereas American Airlines is a premium carrier.

It would have been more meaningful if you had compared like with like. No wonder you are confused!
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:37 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Yes. Its the only explanation. The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast. Its CASM advantage must be calculated when using 9 abreast. The CASM advantage is said to be on short flights which means lots of economy seats. The 787-9 has more cabin area than the A330-900.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/AirAs ... 0-300.php#

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Same layout and number of seats. The 787 has significantly better comfort in this comparison. If the A330 had 8 abreast for the full length of the aircraft it has 10% less seats. I don't understand how the A330 could have better CASM on short domestic flights with an 8 abreast domestic cabin. Same weights with 10% less seats.



Its very difficult to compare seating of different aircraft in airline configurations as they use different seats. That is why I compared the configuration of the same airline and the 2 models. In that case you can see that there is hardly any difference in seating between the 2 models. So the 789 is not 10% bigger in these 2 examples.

You could assert that the 789 is 10% bigger than the A333, but you need to show examples how this is true. By comparing different airlines you aren't proving anything other than trying to muddy the water. Look at the AA 789 and their A333. The 789 with J, Y+ and Y has 6 less seats than their A333 with on J and Y. Now granted if they put in Y+ you expect the A333 to lose seats, but do you think it will lose 28 seats? That is 3 and a bit rows of Y in the A330.

So no, the A333 is not 10% smaller than the 789, no matter how much you want it to be. This we can see based on how airlines configure their aircraft at the moment. I doubt the A332 will be 10% smaller than the 788 seeing that is more than 2m longer, or about 3 rows of Y, but we don't have a comparison of airline configured cabins as we do with the 789 and A333.
 
Geoff1947
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:37 pm

I can see IAG buying the A330-800 for Iberia / LEVEL. They have expansion plans are are still placing orders for A330-200s.

Geoff
 
Jayafe
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
I can see IAG buying the A330-800 for Iberia / LEVEL. They have expansion plans are are still placing orders for A330-200s.

Geoff


IB is quite comfortable with delivery slots for A332s and A359s. Level could be an option, as long as delivery calendar and tag price fits the low cost style, which probably is more suitable for "end of the line" ceos
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6051
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines having second thoughts on A330neos, could order 787's instead

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:44 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
[Wow, that is some accusation that you are making. Airbus is lying about the A330 and is using 9-abreast seating for economics but is marketing the aircraft at 8-abreast for comfort. Do I have that right?.

Yes. Its the only explanation. The A330 is sold and marketed with 9 abreast. Its CASM advantage must be calculated when using 9 abreast. The CASM advantage is said to be on short flights which means lots of economy seats. The 787-9 has more cabin area than the A330-900.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/AirAs ... 0-300.php#

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Same layout and number of seats. The 787 has significantly better comfort in this comparison. If the A330 had 8 abreast for the full length of the aircraft it has 10% less seats. I don't understand how the A330 could have better CASM on short domestic flights with an 8 abreast domestic cabin. Same weights with 10% less seats.


In this comparison the A330-300 has 377 seats, a dense configuration, and the 787-9 has 285 seats, a much less dense configuration. What exactly are you comparing?

It would make more sense to compare https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... 30_300.php
with https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... _787-9.php

Still not comparable as both frames are set up for different markets, but AA does 8 seats a row economy on the A330-300 and 9 seat a row economy on the 787-9.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos