cledaybuck
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
No, no nationalism to see here, move along...
It will interesting to see how it is handled adding the Canadians/Quebecois into the mix.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1514
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:57 pm

Polot wrote:
There is a big difference between EK, DL, AF, etc "roughing" it with the 777 for one long haul route in their network versus having to deal with the 777's issues at JNB's height/temp for basically all your routes.

This is all very off topic though.


Not really off topic, especially when people may think the reason SAA bought the A340 over the 777 was because of the said bribes being paid by Airbus. The second Airbus deal done in 2015 seems to have wanted Airbus to use a leasing company that they weren't familiar with and that reeks of corruption, but Airbus actually turned that down.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile, conspiracy theories have been popular in the French media, which suggests that Airbus’s arch-rival Boeing is behind the accusations, and that Mr. Enders’ policies of openness and self-reporting played into the Americans’ plans – and entrenched German power at Airbus. Although Airbus grew out of a series of multinational mergers, the company remains dominated by French and German camps.

No, no nationalism to see here, move along...


Quite laughable that the French media drag out the nationalist angle considering how the French arm of the company have made absolutely every effort to Frenchify Airbus over the years. So many French CEOs and top managers throughout Airbus' history... Much more than German. How many Spanish or British...?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
CX747
Posts: 5939
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:36 pm

No country is perfect, no company is perfect. When Boeing folks were found neck deep in fraud on the tanker deal they went to jail. Same should happen to Airbus folks if necessary.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
trex8
Posts: 5008
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:48 pm

CX747 wrote:
No country is perfect, no company is perfect. When Boeing folks were found neck deep in fraud on the tanker deal they went to jail. Same should happen to Airbus folks if necessary.

Different scenario, B were "bribing" officials of their own country. A is alleged to be bribing officials in foreign countries. While ethically you might say its the same, reality and politics say the former is more serious than the latter as "commissions' is almost a way of life in some places.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:12 pm

Reuters: Airbus turmoil overshadows bid to rescue CSeries says:

The Airbus sales operation is demoralized and in disarray, multiple aerospace and airline industry sources said, with some blaming Enders for turning the company against itself.

Two people said the situation is so tense that some employees have begun to shy away from selling in problematic countries, rather than risk being drawn into the investigation.

Soon-to-retire sales chief John Leahy has been asked to stay until the end of the year to help steady the operation, but his successor has not been officially confirmed, adding a sense of vacuum that has also sapped morale.

Leahy designated his deputy Kiran Rao as his successor earlier this year but the chaos engulfing Airbus means now is not considered the right time for major new announcements.

So some inside the company feel Enders should have maintained the status quo with regard to the use of "consultants" etc?

And now they don't want to make major announcements because an announcement will cause the corruption issue to be raised in the press?
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:33 pm

SPIEGEL: A Golden Handshake Worth 80 Million Euros says:

In France, Jean-Paul Gut is a legend. As head of strategy and marketing, he played a key role in the success of Airbus and its rise to the second largest aircraft manufacturer in the world behind Boeing. Gut was the company's go-to man when it came to brokering deals, with Airbus sending him in when negotiations with clients had stalled. Especially when the stakes were high - when billion-dollar-deals involving dozens of aircraft were on the table. How exactly he did what he did was his secret. Even now, his profile on LinkedIn describes him as a man of "great discretion."

What is known, though, is that until 2007, Jean-Paul Gut led the Paris-based sales division now at the center of the Airbus corruption scandal. The German CEO of Airbus, Tom Enders, has called it a "Bullshit Castle," the place where bribery-lubricated deals were allegedly made. In 2016 Enders shut it down, a dramatic move designed to show that he meant business with his clean-up effort.

According to information obtained by DER SPIEGEL and its French investigative partner Mediapart, state corruption investigators in Paris have requested access to an Airbus contract that, in the best-case scenario, makes Enders look bad. In a worst-case scenario, it could jeopardize his job.


Very spicy article, worth reading the whole thing, but not sure if it points to illegal acts. It might raise the heat on Enders, though.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
mandala499
Posts: 6467
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:21 pm

Why do I have the feeling that Garuda's A330ceo deal (and GA's 320 for Citilink) is going to be mentioned?
Last year, UKSFO has already cited RR conducting "questionable actions" with regards to middlemen. Garuda's former CEO is now named a suspect for corruption, but the middlemen is still untouched. The document cited the middlemen, dating back to the 90s (GA's original 6 A330-341s).

The AW101 deal is also under investigation (1 aircraft delivered but impounded)...

Across the Atlantic, the Boeing 777-300ER deal and 737-800 deals are being looked at, and so is the CRJ1000 deal, the latter taking priority if I understand the local news correctly... why? Similar suspected middlemen...

Time the "middlemen as tools of corruption" gets cleaned up... (am a middleman myself... seen enough of this "dodgy stuff" over the years)...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:57 pm

mandala499 wrote:
Time the "middlemen as tools of corruption" gets cleaned up... (am a middleman myself... seen enough of this "dodgy stuff" over the years)...

Do you see any changes in practices since the time the allegations in this thread were raised a few weeks ago?

Or when the RR settlement was announced?

Or when Enders shut down the "Bullshit Castle" in 2016?
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:15 pm

It seems like corruption is commonplace among certain aviation companies, you can add Embraer to the list: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... ea48512c82

and you can probably add Bombardier to the list as well. For Boeing, I would say that any corruption would probably more political/government related (tanker dispute) and contained within the US rather than something international.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 669
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:46 pm

trex8 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
No country is perfect, no company is perfect. When Boeing folks were found neck deep in fraud on the tanker deal they went to jail. Same should happen to Airbus folks if necessary.

Different scenario, B were "bribing" officials of their own country. A is alleged to be bribing officials in foreign countries. While ethically you might say its the same, reality and politics say the former is more serious than the latter as "commissions' is almost a way of life in some places.


Bribery and fraud are equally unethical in either scenario. The governments of the West have largely rejected the use of bribes in foreign as well as domestic transactions irrespective of what might be the norm in those foreign countries.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:33 pm

Whatever...if Airbus committed criminal acts they should be punished. Im quite disturbed on the off shore companies and murky dealings Airbus set up with no explanation for their existance. Usually their existance is because they want to hide something. \Would be a shame if John Leahy was implicated in this scenario...then again how would he not be "aware" of this, even if most were on the military side?
 
bob75013
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Airbus Financial Udate

Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:08 pm

Discusses financial results, the market, as well as potential impact of the corruption investigations, A320 engine availability and the A400.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/airbus-warns ... 09220.html
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:41 pm

The investigation has expanded to the US:

Airbus said on Tuesday it had uncovered inaccuracies in its filings to U.S. regulators over arms technology sales, drawing the United States for the first time into a scandal over alleged misconduct at Europe’s largest aerospace firm.

...

However the gains were overshadowed by news that Airbus had itself unearthed inaccuracies in past filings to the State Department on defense technology exports.

These involved inaccurate statements made by Airbus under a section of the U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), which governs the use of commissions and agents.


Article
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1D00J8

It's all about military stuff, I'm not entirely sure what they expect to find.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:56 pm

Drive and drabs is not a good sign in this type of story
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:09 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The investigation has expanded to the US:

It's all about military stuff, I'm not entirely sure what they expect to find.

The way I'm reading the article, it says that Airbus has told the US that its earlier statements were inaccurate, and nothing in the article says the US is starting its own investigation (yet).
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
The way I'm reading the article, it says that Airbus has told the US that its earlier statements were inaccurate


Just as Airbus told the UK in 2016, and triggered an investigation.

and nothing in the article says the US is starting its own investigation (yet).


So we can assume the US might launch an investigation.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:22 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
So we can assume the US might launch an investigation.

I think that's a fair assumption.

See also the 'factbox': http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbu ... SKBN1D00J8
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
mffoda
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:51 pm

From NYTimes....

It looks like this could a lot worse from the US side.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/busi ... -arms.html

"The aircraft manufacturer Airbus said on Tuesday that it may have violated United States rules on arms exports, potentially expanding a corruption investigation that has already shaken the company in Europe.

Airbus, Boeing’s main rival in the passenger jet business, said that it had provided false information to the State Department about its compliance with rules on arms sales overseas. Airbus provided few details except to say that the inaccuracies related to American regulations on fees and commissions paid to sales agents.

The disclosure raised the prospect that corruption investigations involving the company in Europe, to do with the use of middlemen to pay bribes, could spread to the United States, which typically imposes much higher fines and stiffer court judgments. In an industry that relies heavily on ties with government, Airbus could also be at a disadvantage competing for contracts, or even be frozen out altogether."
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
tjh8402
Posts: 889
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:20 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:32 pm

mffoda wrote:
From NYTimes....

It looks like this could a lot worse from the US side.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/busi ... -arms.html

"The aircraft manufacturer Airbus said on Tuesday that it may have violated United States rules on arms exports, potentially expanding a corruption investigation that has already shaken the company in Europe.

Airbus, Boeing’s main rival in the passenger jet business, said that it had provided false information to the State Department about its compliance with rules on arms sales overseas. Airbus provided few details except to say that the inaccuracies related to American regulations on fees and commissions paid to sales agents.

The disclosure raised the prospect that corruption investigations involving the company in Europe, to do with the use of middlemen to pay bribes, could spread to the United States, which typically imposes much higher fines and stiffer court judgments. In an industry that relies heavily on ties with government, Airbus could also be at a disadvantage competing for contracts, or even be frozen out altogether."


The article in the fact box from in the link below explains what the consequences and cost for Airbus might potentially be. Worst case scenario, they could be temporarily banned from exporting military equipment with US supplier parts to anyone. The article points out that Dassault uses it's lack of US parts (and therefore freedom from US export laws) as a sales pitch for their military offerings. According to the link, Airbus may have self reported the violations in part in hopes of garnering leniency.

Violations can also lead to a company being debarred from all export from the United States of goods covered by ITAR, usually for at least three years.

For a foreign company like Airbus this could cause significant disruption to its business, because it would deprive it of access to U.S.-supplied parts for a range of platforms.

Unlike France’s Dassault Aviation, which avoids key U.S. technology to market its warplanes as “ITAR-free”, Airbus uses sensitive U.S. components across its non-civil business from small transport planes to helicopters, fighters and satellites.

“The penalty that a company like Airbus would be most concerned about would be the possibility of debarment,” Whitten said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbu ... SKBN1D01V5

Revelation wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
So we can assume the US might launch an investigation.

I think that's a fair assumption.

See also the 'factbox': http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbu ... SKBN1D00J8
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:59 am

For those who scoff at the political / nationalist angle, Reuters: Airbus's legal troubles grow amid inaccurate U.S. arms trade filings says:

Chief Executive Tom Enders is under increasing pressure over the conduct of the internal investigation, which sources familiar with the matter say has angered staff and alarmed French networks of influence abroad.

Le Canard Enchaine said in an advance copy of its Wednesday edition that French President Emmanuel Macron hoped to find a French replacement for Enders with German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s support. France and Germany each hold 11 percent of Airbus.

However supporters of German-born Enders say such a move may set up a struggle with the Airbus board, which won independence from state interference in a 2013 governance shake-up backed by Macron, as adviser to former president Francois Hollande.

It seems amazing that the staff is angered by the corruption investigation. You would think they would want to get rid of any unsound practices within the company.

This is also the first time I've heard of any outside suggestion that Enders be replaced. So far Enders has said if he feels it is in the good of the company he would step aside, but this is the first time I've heard an outsider say we are at that time. In this case that outsider is the President of France, whose Government controls 11% of the stock and is host nation of many Airbus facilities.

So, any speculation on how long Enders lasts? I'd presume he'd stay through all the investigations, and would leave just as the penalties were announced, or shortly thereafter.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:20 am

As Reuters' "sources familiar with the matter" have been proven wrong multiple times before, we just don't know if the staff is angered or someone is just exaggerating.

As for Enders, the President of France alone cannot get the CEO of Airbus replaced. Only the Board of Directors can make that decision. One would also think the President of France has better things to do (like running a country, for example).

So, any speculation on how long Enders lasts? I'd presume he'd stay through all the investigations, and would leave just as the penalties were announced, or shortly thereafter.


We should not speculate until the investigation is finished. Dragging someone's name through the mud without knowing the entire story is just wrong.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:41 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As for Enders, the President of France alone cannot get the CEO of Airbus replaced. Only the Board of Directors can make that decision.

No denying it, just like Donald Trump cannot get the CEO of Apple replaced, but if he trying to achieve his replacement, it is news worthy.

Perhaps even more so in this case since France controls 11% of Airbus and thus has a lot of board influence. The US government doesn't own 11% of Apple.

KarelXWB wrote:
We should not speculate until the investigation is finished. Dragging someone's name through the mud without knowing the entire story is just wrong.

Dragging him through the mud? Enders himself put the notion of him leaving out there so speculating on when it might happen is not dragging his name through the mud. He seems fully prepared to fall on his sword when the time is right. It's only natural to speculate on when that time is.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
Bricktop
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:42 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As for Enders, the President of France alone cannot get the CEO of Airbus replaced. Only the Board of Directors can make that decision. One would also think the President of France has better things to do (like running a country, for example).

Wait until Macron started tweeting about #FailingTomEnders.

KarelXWB wrote:
We should not speculate until the investigation is finished. Dragging someone's name through the mud without knowing the entire story is just wrong.

Sign of the times, KarelXWB. Sign of the times.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:59 am

Revelation wrote:
Perhaps even more so in this case since France controls 11% of Airbus and thus has a lot of board influence.


So does Germany, and they seem to support Enders.

KarelXWB wrote:
Dragging him through the mud? Enders himself put the notion of him leaving out there so speculating on when it might happen is not dragging his name through the mud. He seems fully prepared to fall on his sword when the time is right. It's only natural to speculate on when that time is.


The issue with speculation is that people tend to make things even more worse. Sometimes it is better to wait for the outcome of the investigation.

If Enders is willing to take one for the team, so be it. At the end of the day, everyone is replaceable.

Bricktop wrote:
Wait until Macron started tweeting about #FailingTomEnders.


Macron is a decent guy and would rather discuss such matter behind closed doors.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:19 pm

The fact that the Govt's of France and Germany have such large shareholdings makes this all so much worse.
Until the year 2000 France allowed tax deductions for foreign inducements.
Subsequently they ratified the UNESCO Charter on corruption which outlawed the bribery of foreign public officiials.
I don't know of the charter was subsequently changed but it may provide a possible reason why middle men are used.
Here is some further interesting reading:

http://www.economist.com/node/1842124

And while we are on the Airbus corruption story has the insider trading charges against senior Airbus officials as the result of share trading when problems with the 380 became known internally, been resolved?

Ruscoe
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:23 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Perhaps even more so in this case since France controls 11% of Airbus and thus has a lot of board influence.

So does Germany, and they seem to support Enders.

Personally, I think Enders deserves support and as above do not understand why rooting out corruption would make him unpopular, but as you say, what matters is what the Board thinks. From what I've observed over the years, if any significant percentage of the board does not support the CEO, then a new CEO must be found or the dissenting board members must resign. It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO. Airbus's Board members are given online ( http://company.airbus.com/company/corpo ... ctors.html ). I have no idea if Macron's opinion holds sway over any of these members.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:31 pm

Ruscoe wrote:
And while we are on the Airbus corruption story has the insider trading charges against senior Airbus officials as the result of share trading when problems with the 380 became known internally, been resolved?


The French constitutional court had blocked the insider trading trial in 2015 due to the lack of evidence.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 7601
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
From what I've observed over the years, if any significant percentage of the board does not support the CEO, then a new CEO must be found or the dissenting board members must resign. It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO.

As a general question, does that not lead to a board and CEO that are just rubber stamps of each other, the CEO does whatever the board desires and the Board approves whatever the CEO desires, at time only adversaries reveal the pitfalls of certain courses of action, and at this high a level of the company, opposing views are important since once the ball get's rolling at the board level, it becomes larger and more difficult to stop or change direction.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 7601
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:36 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The French constitutional court had blocked the insider trading trial in 2015 due to the lack of evidence.

Blocked or dismissed, if no evidence exist I would assume dismiss would be the appropriate action.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:38 pm

Ruscoe wrote:
And while we are on the Airbus corruption story has the insider trading charges against senior Airbus officials as the result of share trading when problems with the 380 became known internally, been resolved?

Yes. The charges were dropped because of insufficient evidence. Insider trading is very hard to prove.

What I found interesting is that one of the accused was Jean-Paul Gut, the former leader of what Enders called the "Bullshit Castle".

Ref: https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/c ... ecs-819940
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
bigjku
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:12 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:
From what I've observed over the years, if any significant percentage of the board does not support the CEO, then a new CEO must be found or the dissenting board members must resign. It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO.

As a general question, does that not lead to a board and CEO that are just rubber stamps of each other, the CEO does whatever the board desires and the Board approves whatever the CEO desires, at time only adversaries reveal the pitfalls of certain courses of action, and at this high a level of the company, opposing views are important since once the ball get's rolling at the board level, it becomes larger and more difficult to stop or change direction.


I think this is a general rule of thumb mostly in cases where one group wants to oust the CEO or make major changes to the company. The way it goes is once it’s pushed to the point of a vote, in particular on CEO issues, it would be destructive to everyones share value to continue to sit at a 5-4 split for the CEO on a hypothetical board. It would make speculation on a renewed fight rampant and depress the stock price.

In broader fights over things like selling off business segments or changing how the business operates you often see almost what amounts to a peace treaty even if one side loses. The winners often adopt parts of the proposed strategy and both sides declare victory.

The key is everyone in the end wants to make money. That is also kind of why Airbus may be a bit strange. Governments have other concerns that don’t necessarily bring them together.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:14 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:
From what I've observed over the years, if any significant percentage of the board does not support the CEO, then a new CEO must be found or the dissenting board members must resign. It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO.

As a general question, does that not lead to a board and CEO that are just rubber stamps of each other, the CEO does whatever the board desires and the Board approves whatever the CEO desires, at time only adversaries reveal the pitfalls of certain courses of action, and at this high a level of the company, opposing views are important since once the ball get's rolling at the board level, it becomes larger and more difficult to stop or change direction.

The Board is elected by the Shareholders and the Board then picks the CEO and has approval over all Corporate Officers so indeed the CEO is there to do what the shareholders desire, and ideally the Board and CEO are in general agreement on what that is. The Board is there to monitor the CEO's actions going forward, and if the Board feels the CEO is not acting in the Shareholder's interest they can replace the CEO. The shareholders vote on the Board so if they feel the Company is going in the wrong direction they can elect "dissident" board members, but in the end if the "dissidents" can't effect change they should and usually do resign. All of this takes time so as you say one of the pitfalls is if the CEO picks a bad direction for the company and has Board support it, it can and will take the Shareholders a long time to undo the damage, but of course it was the Shareholders who elected the Board in the first place so it all falls back on them. Some times you see major investors (investment funds, etc) openly pressure Board members to resign to try to get a change to happen quicker, and some times that works, and some times it does not.

Some times Board membership is linked to ownership agreements (we just saw that in the Airbus/BBD/CSALP deal where Airbus gets to select 4 of 7 board members), other times it is not. I don't think Airbus's board has such an agreement in place.

If (in theory) Marcon wants to get Enders replaced, he doesn't necessarily need a majority of the Board to support that idea, all he needs is a large enough percentage to create the situation where Enders feels he cannot get routine Board approval of his actions. If push comes to shove it could come down to needing a majority to force an ouster, but it usually doesn't come to that. In this case Enders is already signalling that he will "take one for the team" if need be, so he's indicating that he won't let it come to a crisis. However that doesn't mean he's to leave at the first sign of discord either. That's why it's such a fascinating situation.

par13del wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
The French constitutional court had blocked the insider trading trial in 2015 due to the lack of evidence.

Blocked or dismissed, if no evidence exist I would assume dismiss would be the appropriate action.

If charges were brought with no evidence, then the prosecutors should be sanctioned. Since they were not, it's clear there was some evidence, but the higher level court did not agree that it was sufficient to convict. Insider trading is hard to prove. You have to prove that insiders used inside data to decide to dump shares, as opposed to generally available information and/or personal choice/convenience. It's a hard standard to meet.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
Balerit
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:18 pm

It sounds more like there was a rogue click operating independently within Airbus.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO.


True, except that is not the case right now. The Board fully supports Enders.

Airbus board backs CEO after reviewing top management

Their opinion may change, depending on the outcome of the investigation.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6691
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
For some prospective, Wiki gives Airbus 2016 results as:

Revenue‎: ‎€66.58 billion (FY 2016)
Profit‎: ‎€1.00 billion (FY 2016)
Operating income‎: ‎€2.26 billion (FY 2016)

So we're talking about penalties that could wipe a year's profits off the books.


Just for the record 1st 9 months 2017
E2.3Bn EBIT,
E1.8Bn net.
Net cash E6.7bn

Rgds
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:58 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's not tenable to have a significant percentage of the Board not support the CEO.


True, except that is not the case right now. The Board fully supports Enders.

Airbus board backs CEO after reviewing top management

Their opinion may change, depending on the outcome of the investigation.

Interesting article. In addition to stating the Board's support of Enders, it also shows the Board did due its own diligence first by hiring outside investigators. I suppose that investigation might have ruffled some feathers.

The article gives us some reasoning behind why Enders is (allegedly) being criticized internally:

Enders and legal counsel John Harrison have come under fire from within Airbus and in the French media for opening the floodgates to widening investigations and for overseeing what several insiders have called an internal witch-hunt.

It's a shame that some insiders (allegedly) see this as an internal witch hunt. Big companies need to be squeeky clean. Boeing has lost a couple CEOs over their indiscretions. Insiders should welcome a cleaning out of any skeletons in the closet.

astuteman wrote:
Revelation wrote:
For some prospective, Wiki gives Airbus 2016 results as:

Revenue‎: ‎€66.58 billion (FY 2016)
Profit‎: ‎€1.00 billion (FY 2016)
Operating income‎: ‎€2.26 billion (FY 2016)

So we're talking about penalties that could wipe a year's profits off the books.


Just for the record 1st 9 months 2017
E2.3Bn EBIT,
E1.8Bn net.
Net cash E6.7bn

Rgds

Thanks for the updated info.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:20 am

As for Enders, the President of France alone cannot get the CEO of Airbus replaced. Only the Board of Directors can make that decision. One would also think the President of France has better things to do (like running a country, for example).


I would have thought it quite appropriate that the President of France to comment on the goings on of Airbus. Besides being a shareholder, Airbus is seen as a source of pride for Europe, a success story on the international stage. To have it's name sullied and dragged through the mud for corruption and by some of the highest office holders in the company, not only drags the company down, but the countries of where Airbus is based. While the majority of Airbus is split between France and Germany, most foreigners view Airbus as mainly French, thus the bribery/corruption allegations are thought of as the French being corrupt, whether this is true or not, doesn't really matter, it is peoples perception.

Personally I am not at all surprised by the allegations, the only thing that has surprised me is that it has come to the attention of the public.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:26 am

This just gets worse and worse as more information comes out. You have to give Enders some credit, he tried to clean out the company and is willing to take the fall for all this. Only issue that is seriously fishy with him is the massive severance package he gave to the Sales office Head.
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 971
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:35 am

Whats the case against Airbus? That some middlemen were used to swing some deals? Jeeez! Thats the standard way of doing business in Asia and Africa.

Anyone making the case that Boeing doesnt do this sort of thing is living in a fools paradise!

middlemen who may have paid out some incentives?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:13 am

jupiter2 wrote:
To have it's name sullied and dragged through the mud for corruption and by some of the highest office holders in the company, not only drags the company down, but the countries of where Airbus is based.

From my point of view, that's a strange way of looking at things.

The ones dragging the company through the mud are the ones that are using illegal payoffs to sell products, not Enders. Given that these folks often get paid on commission and/or bonus, they're using company money to make bribes that give them personal profit at the expense of the entire enterprise. It's no way to run a business.

Enders is trying to clean up the company, not drag it through the mud.

BawliBooch wrote:
Whats the case against Airbus? That some middlemen were used to swing some deals? Jeeez! Thats the standard way of doing business in Asia and Africa.

Yes, and in the West, we've gone a long way to reduce corruption, so the question becomes, which approach should be used in East-West deals?

The answer is that the Western governments have decided they will not support "the standard way of doing business in Asia and Africa".

Rolls Royce found out that these laws have implications by paying a GBP 671M penalty.

Airbus has said there are "certain irregularities" in their filings with US and UK governments. That's the case against Airbus, so far.

Personally, I haven't had to pay a bribe ever, and I had my own business for a decade.

I'm glad my life is not a never ending series of trying to figure out what amount to pay what person in the form of a bribe to get them to do things they should be doing as a part of their job.

We should be supporting people like Enders who are trying to clean things up.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:05 am

Revelation wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
To have it's name sullied and dragged through the mud for corruption and by some of the highest office holders in the company, not only drags the company down, but the countries of where Airbus is based.

From my point of view, that's a strange way of looking at things.

The ones dragging the company through the mud are the ones that are using illegal payoffs to sell products, not Enders. Given that these folks often get paid on commission and/or bonus, they're using company money to make bribes that give them personal profit at the expense of the entire enterprise. It's no way to run a business.

Enders is trying to clean up the company, not drag it through the mud.

But Enders himself has been implicated in some of these deals. As far as I'm concerned, if you're authorised to make multi billion dollar deals and who knows just how many of these deals made are under investigation, then you are a senior in the Airbus hierarchy. The whole thing stinks of being business as usual when it comes to the practice of bribes and kick backs, which is both worrying and disappointing. These practices are not acceptable in modern society, while I'll acknowledge it's still common practice and seen as part of business in some societies, it doesn't make it right, nor should it be accepted as such.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6691
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:27 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Whats the case against Airbus? That some middlemen were used to swing some deals? Jeeez! Thats the standard way of doing business in Asia and Africa.

Anyone making the case that Boeing doesnt do this sort of thing is living in a fools paradise!

middlemen who may have paid out some incentives?


I don't think I can agree with this.
In the brief spell that I spent outside of what I consider to be my core vocation, I worked for a US petrochem corporation from 1995 to 1998, and it was about that time that I saw a really big drive for ethical conduct in US companies being driven out of the litigious culture in the USA.
My present employer was fined some $500M in c.2010 over a bribery scandal.
And like Airbus, started down the ethical conduct route about 18 months to 2 years beforehand.
They were nearly 10 years behind the US corporation I mentioned above.
Today they probably have some of the strongest ethical conduct standards in the world - we spend huge time and money on mandated briefs, training, and signed declarations.
RR have just been fined some £700M ($1Bn?) for bribery and corruption.
I know from my dealings with a particular part of RR that they are using that event to reinforce their standards
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in my view major US companies will have ethical conduct codes every bit as severe as those of my current employer.

I think you are right that in other parts of the world this is BAU.
But I think the law, and precedents like those I describe, will stop most of the "first world" majors from engaging in this today.

As an aside, my employer is as strong as its ever been and didn't lose its CEO.
RR look to be doing ok, despite their fines.
This Airbus corruption case is a big thing. Some $2Bn in fines is not trivial. The corporate cultural impact is massive
But in the longer term, a) Airbus can afford this without significant material damage, and b) in my experience CEO's that jump in with the ethical conduct drive ahead of the litigation usually get the credit for it.
In 5 - 10 years time this event will be a historical reference point that Airbus use to keep their business on a sound ethical footing.
And that's about it.

Rgds
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:10 am

jupiter2 wrote:
To have it's name sullied and dragged through the mud for corruption and by some of the highest office holders in the company, not only drags the company down, but the countries of where Airbus is based.

jupiter2 wrote:
But Enders himself has been implicated in some of these deals. As far as I'm concerned, if you're authorised to make multi billion dollar deals and who knows just how many of these deals made are under investigation, then you are a senior in the Airbus hierarchy.

Interesting.

What I've read is at best that Enders signed off on deals that others made.

I view Enders as being part of the solution rather than part of the problem, but maybe I don't have all the information that you have.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:51 am

Revelation wrote:
We should be supporting people like Enders who are trying to clean things up.


And now we know why Enders took direct control of sales earlier this year. People assumed it was a power struggle, now it seems he just wants to get grip on the corruption situation.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:59 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We should be supporting people like Enders who are trying to clean things up.


And now we know why Enders took direct control of sales earlier this year. People assumed it was a power struggle, now it seems he just wants to get grip on the corruption situation.


And as per the new thread I started ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1377889 ), Enders has decided to look outside for Leahy's replacement, which erases the plan to go from Leahy to Rao, so he's really shaking up the sales department.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
And as per the new thread I started ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1377889 ), Enders has decided to look outside for Leahy's replacement, which erases the plan to go from Leahy to Rao, so he's really shaking up the sales department.


I wonder why though. It's not like a new civil sales guy will fix the issues in the military division.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:16 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And as per the new thread I started ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1377889 ), Enders has decided to look outside for Leahy's replacement, which erases the plan to go from Leahy to Rao, so he's really shaking up the sales department.


I wonder why though. It's not like a new civil sales guy will fix the issues in the military division.

Der Spiegel's "Bullshit Palace" story talked of issues with both commercial and military transactions.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26714
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
Der Spiegel's "Bullshit Palace" story talked of issues with both commercial and military transactions.


So where is the "clean start" in the military division?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 17183
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:25 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Der Spiegel's "Bullshit Palace" story talked of issues with both commercial and military transactions.


So where is the "clean start" in the military division?

Good question. Maybe Ender's grab of sales from airplane to corporate in the thread you linked to above ( viewtopic.php?t=1367487 ) also grabbed control of military too?
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos