Planeflyer
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:12 am

Honest question, what material impact would any loss of reputation have?

Airline customers need them and so do most of their defense customers?

And so many just want this to go away.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:43 pm

Apparently it was Tom Enders who selected Leahy's replacement, and not the Board:

How sorry are you for Eric Schulz to have to succeed you?

(Laughs) Eric is up for the challenge. He and I have talked about it quite a bit. We even talked about it a couple of years ago when I was thinking about retirement when I reached 65. I think Eric is going to hit the ground running because he knows people. I thought Christian Scherer would have been an excellent choice, too. He was my deputy for years and could have moved right in. Tom [Enders] told me it was one of the toughest decisions he ever had to make. Tom went to the board and told them, “I really thought this through, it was a close call and I really want to go with Eric.” The rumor that the board overruled Tom is absolutely untrue. Either would have been a great choice and now Eric will give Boeing a run for its money.


http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... john-leahy
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:24 pm

Austria ends the Eurofighter investigation case:

The investigation of Airbus Defence and Space GmbH by the Munich Public Prosecutor (Staatsanwaltschaft München I) related to the sale of Eurofighter aircraft to the Republic of Austria in 2003 has been terminated. The result of the investigation by the Munich Public Prosecutor, which had been ongoing since 2012, did not confirm the allegations of bribery.


Press release
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... tion-.html
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mercure1
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm

Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:05 pm

BTW https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airbu ... KKBN1FT2GH is a reference.

mercure1 wrote:
Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...

Agree. Airbus is doing a payoff to make it all go away.

And in the end, Airbus is losing the customer:

Austria plans to end its Eurofighter jet program early and replace it with a cheaper alternative fleet of aircraft bought or leased from another government, its defense minister said on Friday, amid a legal battle over the jets with Airbus (AIR.PA).

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN19S0ZN
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
Austria plans to end its Eurofighter jet program early and replace it with a cheaper alternative fleet of aircraft bought or leased from another government, its defense minister said on Friday, amid a legal battle over the jets with Airbus (AIR.PA).

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN19S0ZN


Reason for the early termination seems to be high maintenance costs, and not the investigation itself.

The defense ministry said in a statement that Austria’s 15 Eurofighter jets could be phased out from 2020. The continued use of the Eurofighter planes for 30 years - the normal life span of such jets - would cost up to 5 billion euros, largely for maintenance.

...

“It is necessary to get a grip on the overflowing costs of the Eurofighter,” Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil said.

A source at the ministry was confident existing maintenance contracts with Airbus for the Eurofighters could be renegotiated. Doskozil said some kind of compensation for its Eurofighters was “likely” to come from the court battle. Alternatively, the aircraft or parts could be sold.
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BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:17 pm

So bottomline of this four-months-long dead-people-on-drugs marathon is:
1. All investigations of Airbus are closed without any wrong-doing found but with a lot of tax-payer's money spent. Kind of reminds me of the "Canadian Parliament Overspending Commission" which spent 36 million Canadian dollars to find the overspending of 1.2 million.
2. Austria thinks F-35s will be cheaper than Eurofighter because the newspapers there are so slow that they haven't yet published all the troubles F-35 brought to anyone who ever ordered it.
3. Austria has lost more wars than any other country in the history of mankind. Even Mozart lost to Salieri.
PS Just breaking. Austria started negotiations with President Trump on the F-52 program that is already underway in Norway.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:34 pm

BREECH wrote:
So bottomline of this four-months-long dead-people-on-drugs marathon is:
1. All investigations of Airbus are closed without any wrong-doing found but with a lot of tax-payer's money spent.

Huh?

Tell us why you think a report of one of two Eurofighter investigations closing means the other British, French and US investigations are closed.

If there's no wrong doing in this one case, why did Airbus just write a check for 81,250,000 euros? And what about the second of the two cases?

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

In other words,

Airbus said in a statement the penalty, which it had agreed to pay, related to the “negligent breach of supervisory duties” by unidentified members of Airbus Defence and Space’s former management.

The "administrative fines" are how Airbus pays back the "tax-payer's money spent".

And this just settles the Munich investigation.

While Friday’s settlement ends the Munich investigation, Airbus and individuals including Chief Executive Tom Enders, who headed the company’s defence business from 2000 to 2005, face an ongoing investigation in Vienna into the Eurofighter deal.

Ref: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airbu ... KKBN1FT2GH
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.
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par13del
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:35 pm

A bit confused, in the Boeing case the legal system identified a crime and someone was prosecuted and went to jail, are you saying that should not have happened, I am looking for the relevance to what is taking place in Europe.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:42 pm

BREECH wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.


In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However, they were fined 81 million euros because Airbus couldn't account for 100 million euros. You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

Also, this is only one case in several being investigated. If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:26 pm

BREECH wrote:
Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.

Nice rant.

Meanwhile Airbus has paid out EUR 81M and its access to ex-im financing is still on hold regardless of whether they actually paid bribes or not.

Enders said these probes can have a serious impact and now you're getting a taste of what he's talking about.

The game's not over, and if you don't believe me, go ahead and re-read the Spiegel 'bullshit castle' articles and learn about the other challenges Airbus is facing.
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It is a deadly cancer on American society
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:27 pm

BREECH wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.


I think you got the Boeing scandal slightly wrong. Darleen Druyun, a former Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, got a job at Boeing, confessed to wrong doings and got 9 month jail time. Boeing CFO Michael M. Sears got 4 month in jail. Darleen Druyun was also involved in a 1993 case involving McDonnell Douglas, but kept her job than. The daughter and here fiance got employment at Boeing in 2000. The astonishing fact is that Boeing got to bid on the tanker again a few years later, that about shows how serious the USA looks at corruption at home, as not very serious, and how cosy the relationship is between the government and military in the USA and their local suppliers.
Regarding other points, I think the presumption of innocence is still a case in the USA. One also has to look at, that Airbus the accusation left are about bribery in a foreign country. The in my view most serious case, bribery in the EU in regards to Austria, is according to the news mentioned in the thread settled.
 
BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:33 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred towards something.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.

Nice rant.

Meanwhile Airbus has paid out EUR 81M and its access to ex-im financing is still on hold regardless of whether they actually paid bribes or not.

Enders said these probes can have a serious impact and now you're getting a taste of what he's talking about.

The game's not over, and if you don't believe me, go ahead and re-read the Spiegel 'bullshit castle' articles and learn about the other challenges Airbus is facing.

Well, if you want to talk in the kind of language...

Nice excretion. And actually that's all I have to say about it. You hate Airbus? I'm sorry. Why are you so biased? Did they fire you or something?
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred towards something.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think you got the Boeing scandal slightly wrong. Darleen Druyun, a former Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, got a job at Boeing, confessed to wrong doings and got 9 month jail time. Boeing CFO Michael M. Sears got 4 month in jail. Darleen Druyun was also involved in a 1993 case involving McDonnell Douglas, but kept her job than. The daughter and here fiance got employment at Boeing in 2000. The astonishing fact is that Boeing got to bid on the tanker again a few years later, that about shows how serious the USA looks at corruption at home, as not very serious, and how cosy the relationship is between the government and military in the USA and their local suppliers.

Yes, that's the one I was talking about. Thank you. :-)
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred towards something.
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jupiter2
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:24 pm

BREECH wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.


1) If it had been as simple as that it would've been "Case Dismissed". However, an81 million euro fine is levied for an "accountancy discrepancy" bit steep for a measly 100 million.

2) I bet BP knew where those funds went though. Or at the very least, where the initial payments went too.

3) Or, Airbus is as guilty as sin, Enders knows it and is just preparing everyone for the ultimate outcome :scratchchin: I don't know, but there seems to be a lot of posturing by Airbus to make good, for a problem you seem to believe doesn't exist
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:30 pm

BREECH wrote:
You hate Airbus? I'm sorry. Why are you so biased? Did they fire you or something?

Pretty much the textbook description of a personal attack.

I guess you don't want to discuss the topic and prefer to make things personal.

Maybe you should get some rest.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
BREECH wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.


1) If it had been as simple as that it would've been "Case Dismissed". However, an81 million euro fine is levied for an "accountancy discrepancy" bit steep for a measly 100 million.

2) I bet BP knew where those funds went though. Or at the very least, where the initial payments went too.

3) Or, Airbus is as guilty as sin, Enders knows it and is just preparing everyone for the ultimate outcome :scratchchin: I don't know, but there seems to be a lot of posturing by Airbus to make good, for a problem you seem to believe doesn't exist

And what, do you think, "the ultimate outcome" could be? Airbus closed, broken into pieces and sold at garage sale? If Airbus was guilty, they wouldn't warn their employees. This warning itself is proof they are, INDEED, not guilty. Case dismissed is impossible. "Investigators" need to show something for the money spent on them by some "commission". 81 million fine is a) smaller than the 100 million, and b) cheaper than litigating for years. Besides, it's really small potatoes for Airbus, they spend more money on free sandwiches.
Last edited by BREECH on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Pretty much the textbook description of a personal attack.

There is a textbook on personal attacks? Do tell!!!

I suppose this came from the same book:
Revelation wrote:
Nice rant.

Try being nice to people, and you might get the same in return.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred towards something.
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Planeflyer
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:55 pm

Does anyone have any info about what the total cash impact will be for AB? 100mil buys a lot of RD so I'm hoping its not much more than this. Fingers crossed as I write this.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:26 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Does anyone have any info about what the total cash impact will be for AB? 100mil buys a lot of RD so I'm hoping its not much more than this. Fingers crossed as I write this.


Airbus warned it could be higher than the RR settlement.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:30 am

Revelation wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...

Agree. Airbus is doing a payoff to make it all go away.


I imagine it's difficult to find enough proof for the 2003 Eurofighter case. Nothing has been documented, and people involved with the matter at that time may not be around anymore.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.

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