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Planeflyer
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:12 am

Honest question, what material impact would any loss of reputation have?

Airline customers need them and so do most of their defense customers?

And so many just want this to go away.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:43 pm

Apparently it was Tom Enders who selected Leahy's replacement, and not the Board:

How sorry are you for Eric Schulz to have to succeed you?

(Laughs) Eric is up for the challenge. He and I have talked about it quite a bit. We even talked about it a couple of years ago when I was thinking about retirement when I reached 65. I think Eric is going to hit the ground running because he knows people. I thought Christian Scherer would have been an excellent choice, too. He was my deputy for years and could have moved right in. Tom [Enders] told me it was one of the toughest decisions he ever had to make. Tom went to the board and told them, “I really thought this through, it was a close call and I really want to go with Eric.” The rumor that the board overruled Tom is absolutely untrue. Either would have been a great choice and now Eric will give Boeing a run for its money.


http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... john-leahy
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:24 pm

Austria ends the Eurofighter investigation case:

The investigation of Airbus Defence and Space GmbH by the Munich Public Prosecutor (Staatsanwaltschaft München I) related to the sale of Eurofighter aircraft to the Republic of Austria in 2003 has been terminated. The result of the investigation by the Munich Public Prosecutor, which had been ongoing since 2012, did not confirm the allegations of bribery.


Press release
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... tion-.html
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mercure1
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm

Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:05 pm

BTW https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airbu ... KKBN1FT2GH is a reference.

mercure1 wrote:
Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...

Agree. Airbus is doing a payoff to make it all go away.

And in the end, Airbus is losing the customer:

Austria plans to end its Eurofighter jet program early and replace it with a cheaper alternative fleet of aircraft bought or leased from another government, its defense minister said on Friday, amid a legal battle over the jets with Airbus (AIR.PA).

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN19S0ZN
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
Austria plans to end its Eurofighter jet program early and replace it with a cheaper alternative fleet of aircraft bought or leased from another government, its defense minister said on Friday, amid a legal battle over the jets with Airbus (AIR.PA).

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN19S0ZN


Reason for the early termination seems to be high maintenance costs, and not the investigation itself.

The defense ministry said in a statement that Austria’s 15 Eurofighter jets could be phased out from 2020. The continued use of the Eurofighter planes for 30 years - the normal life span of such jets - would cost up to 5 billion euros, largely for maintenance.

...

“It is necessary to get a grip on the overflowing costs of the Eurofighter,” Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil said.

A source at the ministry was confident existing maintenance contracts with Airbus for the Eurofighters could be renegotiated. Doskozil said some kind of compensation for its Eurofighters was “likely” to come from the court battle. Alternatively, the aircraft or parts could be sold.
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BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:17 pm

So bottomline of this four-months-long dead-people-on-drugs marathon is:
1. All investigations of Airbus are closed without any wrong-doing found but with a lot of tax-payer's money spent. Kind of reminds me of the "Canadian Parliament Overspending Commission" which spent 36 million Canadian dollars to find the overspending of 1.2 million.
2. Austria thinks F-35s will be cheaper than Eurofighter because the newspapers there are so slow that they haven't yet published all the troubles F-35 brought to anyone who ever ordered it.
3. Austria has lost more wars than any other country in the history of mankind. Even Mozart lost to Salieri.
PS Just breaking. Austria started negotiations with President Trump on the F-52 program that is already underway in Norway.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:34 pm

BREECH wrote:
So bottomline of this four-months-long dead-people-on-drugs marathon is:
1. All investigations of Airbus are closed without any wrong-doing found but with a lot of tax-payer's money spent.

Huh?

Tell us why you think a report of one of two Eurofighter investigations closing means the other British, French and US investigations are closed.

If there's no wrong doing in this one case, why did Airbus just write a check for 81,250,000 euros? And what about the second of the two cases?

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

In other words,

Airbus said in a statement the penalty, which it had agreed to pay, related to the “negligent breach of supervisory duties” by unidentified members of Airbus Defence and Space’s former management.

The "administrative fines" are how Airbus pays back the "tax-payer's money spent".

And this just settles the Munich investigation.

While Friday’s settlement ends the Munich investigation, Airbus and individuals including Chief Executive Tom Enders, who headed the company’s defence business from 2000 to 2005, face an ongoing investigation in Vienna into the Eurofighter deal.

Ref: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-airbu ... KKBN1FT2GH
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BREECH
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.
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par13del
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:35 pm

A bit confused, in the Boeing case the legal system identified a crime and someone was prosecuted and went to jail, are you saying that should not have happened, I am looking for the relevance to what is taking place in Europe.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:42 pm

BREECH wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.


In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However, they were fined 81 million euros because Airbus couldn't account for 100 million euros. You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

Also, this is only one case in several being investigated. If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:26 pm

BREECH wrote:
Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.

Nice rant.

Meanwhile Airbus has paid out EUR 81M and its access to ex-im financing is still on hold regardless of whether they actually paid bribes or not.

Enders said these probes can have a serious impact and now you're getting a taste of what he's talking about.

The game's not over, and if you don't believe me, go ahead and re-read the Spiegel 'bullshit castle' articles and learn about the other challenges Airbus is facing.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:27 pm

BREECH wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Huh?

DUH!

Revelation wrote:
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - German prosecutors have ordered Airbus (AIR.PA) to pay 81.25 million euros (71.98 million pounds) to settle one of two investigations into alleged corruption surrounding the sale of Eurofighter combat jets to Austria in 2003, the two sides said on Friday.

The settlement includes an administrative fine of 250,000 euros and “disgorgement” - which legal experts broadly define as the recovery of ill-gotten gains - of 81 million euros.

Munich prosecutors have been investigating whether Airbus issued bribes to win the $2 billion contract: charges it denies.

In a statement, prosecutors said they had not found evidence of bribery but that Airbus had been unable to account for over 100 million euros in payments to two shell companies.

So the money was paid to the infamous Vector Aerospace and City Chambers Limited and the prosecutor can't prove it went out as bribes, but Airbus can't prove what it did pay for and that they had controls in place that would prevent the money from being paid out as bribes.

Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.


I think you got the Boeing scandal slightly wrong. Darleen Druyun, a former Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, got a job at Boeing, confessed to wrong doings and got 9 month jail time. Boeing CFO Michael M. Sears got 4 month in jail. Darleen Druyun was also involved in a 1993 case involving McDonnell Douglas, but kept her job than. The daughter and here fiance got employment at Boeing in 2000. The astonishing fact is that Boeing got to bid on the tanker again a few years later, that about shows how serious the USA looks at corruption at home, as not very serious, and how cosy the relationship is between the government and military in the USA and their local suppliers.
Regarding other points, I think the presumption of innocence is still a case in the USA. One also has to look at, that Airbus the accusation left are about bribery in a foreign country. The in my view most serious case, bribery in the EU in regards to Austria, is according to the news mentioned in the thread settled.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:33 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Airbus doesn't have to prove anything. Presumption of innocense is still big in Europe. Airbus paid for not being careful enough about mediator companies. Do you have proof that that money went to bribes? As, for example, in a scandal with Boeing where a goverment official signed a 1 trillion KC-X contract to Boeing in exchange for her daughter to be hired into the company for a 50k-a-year salary? Did any of the government officials in Europe or other countries go to jail for bribery as the above mentioned government official Boeing bribed? Everything else is just EU prosecutors trying to earn their keep by starting stupid investigations and finding loopholes to fine famous companies and American newscycle feeders blowing it out of proportion.

Nice rant.

Meanwhile Airbus has paid out EUR 81M and its access to ex-im financing is still on hold regardless of whether they actually paid bribes or not.

Enders said these probes can have a serious impact and now you're getting a taste of what he's talking about.

The game's not over, and if you don't believe me, go ahead and re-read the Spiegel 'bullshit castle' articles and learn about the other challenges Airbus is facing.

Well, if you want to talk in the kind of language...

Nice excretion. And actually that's all I have to say about it. You hate Airbus? I'm sorry. Why are you so biased? Did they fire you or something?
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think you got the Boeing scandal slightly wrong. Darleen Druyun, a former Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, got a job at Boeing, confessed to wrong doings and got 9 month jail time. Boeing CFO Michael M. Sears got 4 month in jail. Darleen Druyun was also involved in a 1993 case involving McDonnell Douglas, but kept her job than. The daughter and here fiance got employment at Boeing in 2000. The astonishing fact is that Boeing got to bid on the tanker again a few years later, that about shows how serious the USA looks at corruption at home, as not very serious, and how cosy the relationship is between the government and military in the USA and their local suppliers.

Yes, that's the one I was talking about. Thank you. :-)
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jupiter2
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:24 pm

BREECH wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.


1) If it had been as simple as that it would've been "Case Dismissed". However, an81 million euro fine is levied for an "accountancy discrepancy" bit steep for a measly 100 million.

2) I bet BP knew where those funds went though. Or at the very least, where the initial payments went too.

3) Or, Airbus is as guilty as sin, Enders knows it and is just preparing everyone for the ultimate outcome :scratchchin: I don't know, but there seems to be a lot of posturing by Airbus to make good, for a problem you seem to believe doesn't exist
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:30 pm

BREECH wrote:
You hate Airbus? I'm sorry. Why are you so biased? Did they fire you or something?

Pretty much the textbook description of a personal attack.

I guess you don't want to discuss the topic and prefer to make things personal.

Maybe you should get some rest.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
BREECH wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
In this particular case, Airbus wasn't found "guilty" as there wasn't conclusive proof of bribes being paid. However...

UH-UH-UH! There is no however in not guilty. Airbus was found NOT guilty. And that's the end of it.

jupiter2 wrote:
You seem to be well versed on the subject, where do you think that 100 million went ?

There was a time when I worked for a BIG company, and I can't tell you which one because if I do you will mock me for Deepwater Horizon disaster. And back then we... they spent this much money or more on security. And the payments had to go through offshore companies because private security companies, especially of the military type, prefer to be registered in tax havens. It doesn't mean the payments weren't legit.

jupiter2 wrote:
If it had been as simple as a missing 100 million euros, you wouldn't have the shake up that has occurred at the top at Airbus, the CEO telling people to expect a poor outcome and hopefully, only having to pay large fines.

OR! Tom Enders, being a German CEO in the messy EU, knows only too well how those "investigations" end. He knows that there will be a shakedown for money, because the people in charge of those investigations want to "show zero toleranece for..." insert the current fashionable political trend.


1) If it had been as simple as that it would've been "Case Dismissed". However, an81 million euro fine is levied for an "accountancy discrepancy" bit steep for a measly 100 million.

2) I bet BP knew where those funds went though. Or at the very least, where the initial payments went too.

3) Or, Airbus is as guilty as sin, Enders knows it and is just preparing everyone for the ultimate outcome :scratchchin: I don't know, but there seems to be a lot of posturing by Airbus to make good, for a problem you seem to believe doesn't exist

And what, do you think, "the ultimate outcome" could be? Airbus closed, broken into pieces and sold at garage sale? If Airbus was guilty, they wouldn't warn their employees. This warning itself is proof they are, INDEED, not guilty. Case dismissed is impossible. "Investigators" need to show something for the money spent on them by some "commission". 81 million fine is a) smaller than the 100 million, and b) cheaper than litigating for years. Besides, it's really small potatoes for Airbus, they spend more money on free sandwiches.
Last edited by BREECH on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Pretty much the textbook description of a personal attack.

There is a textbook on personal attacks? Do tell!!!

I suppose this came from the same book:
Revelation wrote:
Nice rant.

Try being nice to people, and you might get the same in return.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:55 pm

Does anyone have any info about what the total cash impact will be for AB? 100mil buys a lot of RD so I'm hoping its not much more than this. Fingers crossed as I write this.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:26 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Does anyone have any info about what the total cash impact will be for AB? 100mil buys a lot of RD so I'm hoping its not much more than this. Fingers crossed as I write this.


Airbus warned it could be higher than the RR settlement.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:30 am

Revelation wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Munich Public Prosecutor settles Eurofighter Austria investigation with $100 million fine against Airbus for "making payments to business partners without proven documented services in exchange".

Sure sounds like questionable dealings...

Agree. Airbus is doing a payoff to make it all go away.


I imagine it's difficult to find enough proof for the 2003 Eurofighter case. Nothing has been documented, and people involved with the matter at that time may not be around anymore.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:33 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKCN1GD4N4 tells us that Germany would not block a French candidate to replace Enders, and gives us a list of front-runners for the job:

The main internal candidate is Guillaume Faury, a French citizen and the former helicopter unit chief who recently replaced Ender’s previous No. 2 Fabrice Bregier.

But the board is also expected to examine fresh blood such as Thales (TCFP.PA) CEO Patrice Caine, two industry sources have told Reuters.

Le Figaro newspaper has also identified former Air France-KLM (AIRF.PA) chief Alexandre de Juniac, currently head of the International Air Transport Association, as a contender.

Some German company officials, including Airbus defense chief Dirk Hoke, have also been named as possible successors.

It's a good sign that Economy Minister Brigitte Zypries is looking for qualifications rather than nationality.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:20 pm

The latest twist on the investigation from https://global.handelsblatt.com/compani ... nts-901115 :

Airbus spent hundreds of millions of euros on office buildings in Beirut, wind farms in Germany and Malaysian Formula One racing cars as inducements to buy airplanes. Investigators think they may have been bribes.

Should be interesting to see if the investigators can or cannot prove that the €100 million ($122 million) that Airbus gave to sponsor Tony Fernandes's F1 racing car team was or was not a bribe to get him to buy 200 A320neos, then the largest deal ever in Airbus history. As for the payment, the article quotes Airbus's internal documents as saying “It’s unclear what happened to our investment".

The meat of the article is behind a paywall, so it'll be interesting if someone who subscribes can tell us more.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Interersting update.

Of note here is that Tony Fernandes's F1 team was Caterham, and Airbus were a sponsor of that team.

Image

Now weather this €100m relates to that sponsorship or something else I guess is the question?
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:02 pm

Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:17 pm

ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend.


Agreed. F1 sponsorship is CRAZY expensive. Generally there is some tax kickback with sponsorship which may have allowed Airbus to sweeten the deal a little, but I fail to see any "wrong doing" in that. That size sponsorship on the side of a F1 car can easily cost $50 mil PER SEASON.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:24 pm

ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


F1 sponsorship (advertising) is a good investment because it reaches millions of people who might buy your products (cigarettes [in the old days],alcohol, cars, energy drinks, etc). However if your product is only going to be purchased by less than 200 people who you're already wining and dining on a regular basis, not so good an investment -- more likely a bribe in this case.
 
ap305
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


F1 sponsorship (advertising) is a good investment because it reaches millions of people who might buy your products (cigarettes [in the old days],alcohol, cars, energy drinks, etc). However if your product is only going to be purchased by less than 200 people who you're already wining and dining on a regular basis, not so good an investment -- more likely a bribe in this case.


Then why do Boeing and Airbus both advertise to the public? Why the social media presence? Why own a football team? Why Boeing did the whole 787 marketing circus ? Airbus also does a lot more than build aircraft. Just because you think Airbus is crap does not mean they bribe to win deals. This investigation boils down on the face of it to poor documentation by Airbus for which they will pay a steep price if past history is any indication.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:45 pm

ap305 wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


F1 sponsorship (advertising) is a good investment because it reaches millions of people who might buy your products (cigarettes [in the old days],alcohol, cars, energy drinks, etc). However if your product is only going to be purchased by less than 200 people who you're already wining and dining on a regular basis, not so good an investment -- more likely a bribe in this case.


Then why do Boeing and Airbus both advertise to the public? Why the social media presence? Why own a football team? Why Boeing did the whole 787 marketing circus ? Airbus also does a lot more than build aircraft.

Probably much more effective and much greater reach than EUR 100M to put stickers on one race car, don't you think? Social media advertising is far cheaper for far more eyeballs.

PS: Who owns a football team?
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ap305
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


Because the important customer who wanted sponsorship (which would have been the tipping factor) no longer has an f1 team. Airbus currently has a tie up with Williams's engineering division- entirely possible that they may sponsor the f1 team sometime down the road.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


7BOEING7 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


F1 sponsorship (advertising) is a good investment because it reaches millions of people who might buy your products (cigarettes [in the old days],alcohol, cars, energy drinks, etc). However if your product is only going to be purchased by less than 200 people who you're already wining and dining on a regular basis, not so good an investment -- more likely a bribe in this case.


There is more to sponsorship than just advertising. With F1 at least, there are also developments in advanced materials and aerodynamics, which benefit both F1 and aviation. Airbus may also not have the free cash flow available at the moment to make any such sponsorship where the name is on the side of the car. Doesn't mean they are completely out of the game like CaterhamF1 is.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:12 pm

Why does Airbus have their logo on an America's cup team? I don't see the team owning an airline anywhere... Obviously there is more to this than wild theories about corruption. Where Airbus messed up is with documentation/process and this has got them very deservedly in trouble.
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mat66
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:18 pm

ap305 wrote:
Why does Airbus have their logo on an America's cup team? I don't see the team owning an airline anywhere... Obviously there is more to this than wild theories about corruption. Where Airbus messed up is with documentation/process and this has got them very deservedly in trouble.


google "airbus America's cup"

They paid for that logo with engineering hours.
 
ap305
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:26 pm

mat66 wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Why does Airbus have their logo on an America's cup team? I don't see the team owning an airline anywhere... Obviously there is more to this than wild theories about corruption. Where Airbus messed up is with documentation/process and this has got them very deservedly in trouble.


google "airbus America's cup"

They paid for that logo with engineering hours.


I know that very well.... What I am pointing out is the value that sports sponsorship deals offer companies like Airbus beyond just getting somebody to buy aircraft.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:57 pm

ap305 wrote:
mat66 wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Why does Airbus have their logo on an America's cup team? I don't see the team owning an airline anywhere... Obviously there is more to this than wild theories about corruption. Where Airbus messed up is with documentation/process and this has got them very deservedly in trouble.


google "airbus America's cup"

They paid for that logo with engineering hours.


I know that very well.... What I am pointing out is the value that sports sponsorship deals offer companies like Airbus beyond just getting somebody to buy aircraft.

I think it would easier to view it more like general good-will advertising and less like a bribe if it wasn't a one-time sponsorship of a company owned by the same guy whose company was also in the market for 200 aircraft.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:02 pm

Not to put my hands on the fire for this one, but a lot of countries have corruption embedded in trade, so its imposible to conduct business without having middle men/bribes/consultants. I find it amazing that being a Doupoly, (A and B) the Airbus people did in such a way that they will be exposed... only can be explained by greed and low values of those involved, and stupidity for getting into bed with corrupt customers.

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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
mat66 wrote:

google "airbus America's cup"

They paid for that logo with engineering hours.


I know that very well.... What I am pointing out is the value that sports sponsorship deals offer companies like Airbus beyond just getting somebody to buy aircraft.

I think it would easier to view it more like general good-will advertising and less like a bribe if it wasn't a one-time sponsorship of a company owned by the same guy whose company was also in the market for 200 aircraft.


How do you describe loans by aircraft companies to airlines who then order their aircraft? Airbus obviously wanted to help a customer and they also saw an opportunity to engage with a sport that they continue to engage with even after this deal expired.
Last edited by ap305 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:40 pm

ap305 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
I know that very well.... What I am pointing out is the value that sports sponsorship deals offer companies like Airbus beyond just getting somebody to buy aircraft.

I think it would easier to view it more like general good-will advertising and less like a bribe if it wasn't a one-time sponsorship of a company owned by the same guy whose company was also in the market for 200 aircraft.

How do you describe loans by aircraft companies to airlines who then order their aircraft?

I describe that as "financing".

ap305 wrote:
Airbus obviously wanted to help a customer and they also saw an opportunity to engage with a sport that they continue to engage with even after this deal expired.

Perhaps in time we'll now if that is all it is.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm

The Airbus sponsorship is probably tied to the deal AirAsia signed with Airbus. Airbus would have made their money off that deal and they would have found marketing money to spend for sponsorship. If anything dodgy is found the other sponsor on the car will be just as liable, GE. Funny that they got an order for 400 engines at the same time.
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:57 pm

The target for advertising is not always obvious. While customers are the usual, it may be executives of related business, it may be employees, investors etc.
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:46 am

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think it would easier to view it more like general good-will advertising and less like a bribe if it wasn't a one-time sponsorship of a company owned by the same guy whose company was also in the market for 200 aircraft.

How do you describe loans by aircraft companies to airlines who then order their aircraft?

I describe that as "financing".

ap305 wrote:
Airbus obviously wanted to help a customer and they also saw an opportunity to engage with a sport that they continue to engage with even after this deal expired.

Perhaps in time we'll now if that is all it is.

I'm not convinced of either the benignity or the nefariousness of the F1 deal, and like Revelation, I'll wait for a bigger picture to come out after the investigation. In the meantime:
1. Airbus is well known for making unusual deals to gain market share. Remember the Pan Am "try 'em out" leasing deals? Or the financing deals for US Airways in bankruptcy? Or opening a FAL/ completion center to gain market share in China? I also remember an article about Allegiant taking deliveries of new A320s and Airbus refusing to paint them the (cheaper) shade of orange that G9 wanted, saying it didn't look classy enough, and insisting on a different shade of orange? The thing is, Airbus does a lot of unusual things, and we as aviation enthusiasts might not see the full picture or even have the resources/ access to see to the full picture. So I'll hold judgment until we find out more.
2. Tony Fernandes is a quirky customer himself. Remember when he ordered a tranche of A320s, he made John Leahy wear an Air Asia hat and dance in a bar in London (or something like that) to seal the deal? John Leahy insisted he doesn't dance, but he did to get the order. It doesn't surprise me that Fernandes might have wanted a few unusual clauses to sign for more aircraft. After all, an Airbus sponsorship of his racing team also generates news for his racing team.

Combine 1 & 2, and it doesn't surprise me to see some unusual deals to gain market share. Not saying it is bribery, but also not saying it isn't, until we hear more!
 
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:39 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


F1 sponsorship (advertising) is a good investment because it reaches millions of people who might buy your products (cigarettes [in the old days],alcohol, cars, energy drinks, etc). However if your product is only going to be purchased by less than 200 people who you're already wining and dining on a regular basis, not so good an investment -- more likely a bribe in this case.


So that would mean GE was bribing them as well then...?!

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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:59 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
So that would mean GE was bribing them as well then...?!

Would that surprise you?
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:27 pm

Since other Enders/CEO-related threads were merged here, I'll post here.

Reuters ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1H32JK ) gives us:

Former Deutsche Telekom (DTEGn.DE) chief executive Rene Obermann is the favourite to take over as chairman at European aerospace company Airbus (AIR.PA), the Handelsblatt newspaper reported on Tuesday, citing German government and diplomatic sources.
...
Handelsblatt said he was seen as an ideal candidate because he has experience running a company with state involvement, noting he also has an excellent reputation in France, where he was awarded a legion of honour.

Anyone familiar with this gentleman's work?
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Planeflyer
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:03 am

As an investor I’m a little concerned that they a bringing a manager w a utility background into run a competitive aerospace firm.

It’s a little desperate if they can’t find someone from within the company.
 
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DWC
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:28 am

Revelation wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Sounds like a load of hogwash.... Sponsoring a team in what is still one of the great sports in the world is not a bad investment or bribe. Fernandes is a major customer and when he comes around asking for sponsorship it would have been stupid of Airbus to say no. 100mill over a few seasons is nothing when you look at what the other teams spend. The fact is that companies world over do non core dealings with their suppliers and customers. Nonetheless I suspect that Airbus will have to pay a hefty settlement for any poor documentation with regards to these investments.

It could be both a good investment and a bribe, one does not rule out the other.

It's interesting to consider that if F1 sponsorship is a good investment then why isn't Airbus doing much/any of it right now?


To anyone with some financial experience, that F1 sponsorship is suspicious :
1. What is the malaysian public to Airbus
2. More broadly speaking, how many TV watchers buy Airbus ?
3. Airbus does not need to advertize the general public. Airlines on the other hand do ( see Emirates & Etihad stadiums & sponsorings )
4. I see it as some hidden subvention, allowed Tony Fernandes or Air Asia to pay for the sum. And I don't suggest to scrutinize how that translated into their accounting books
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Airbus CEO warns of significant impact from corruption probes

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:50 am

Politics is about the perception of truth, not what is proven.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and goes quack,.. it is a duck

Politicians don't like being hit by scandal.
Airbus's relies on politics to sell quite a few aircraft.
This is how Airbus will be hurt by the scandal.

However their biggest risk is that the Americans are also investigating. Not because Airbus is a competitor of Boeing, but because the Americans are serious about keeping corruption under control, and will keep at it.
Would be interesting to see what the European industrial/political complex has been up too, but I anticipate a large settlement, before we find out.

Ruscoe
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