Blockplus
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:34 am

ADrum23 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
You propensity for needlessly listing off endless city pairs is exhausting.

HI will be served NS from CA and likely LAS/PHX at some point.


Maybe DEN once the MAX 7 comes.

SEA and PDX I can't see because of the intense competition from AS and DL.



Denver may be too far due to etops add fuel. Ua 757s are close to range issues from den. They must be able to fly from den to a point halfway between sfo and hto then drop to 10000feet and continue to an alternate on one or 2 engines. That can be quite alot of fuel on the back end of an etops flight.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:37 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Hope you don't mean me. Not hate for WN, just doesn't usually work for me, isn't my preference.
You are comparing WN to legacy regional ops - um, sure, in that case, I agree. But thats not what WN is.... since BNA is your home airport, I imagine you are only "well served" (in the mainline context) by WN. For others in bigger/hub cities, I think there is a perceived difference in Y flight (IMO), and you said it yourself: you prefer AA into ORD/DFW !

So...... when people outside of CA WN bases, got to pony up 600, 800, $1400 or more to fly to Hawaii, there's a pretty good reason why lack of even small amenities available on others becomes troublesome.


1. No, I meant in general, I see a lot of WN hate here and I don’t get it. They aren’t perfect, but they are far from bad.

2. The reason I prefer AA to ORD/DFW is because of the airport, not because of the airline. ORD/DFW are more convenient airports (to get to) than MDW/DAL IMO, and since WN refuses to fly into either, I go with AA. Now, technically AA doesn’t fly mainline on BNA-ORD (though I expect that will eventually change, I’m baffled they don’t already), but that is my one expection to my mainline rule.

3. Other than power ports, what do the legacy carriers have that is so great that WN doesn’t have?
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 181
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:59 am

ADrum23 wrote:
2. The reason I prefer AA to ORD/DFW is because of the airport, not because of the airline. ORD/DFW are more convenient airports (to get to) than MDW/DAL IMO, and since WN refuses to fly into either, I go with AA. Now, technically AA doesn’t fly mainline on BNA-ORD (though I expect that will eventually change, I’m baffled they don’t already), but that is my one expection to my mainline rule.

Indeed, read too fast, sorry. Still, I take it to mean you are comparing AA regional into ORD vs WN . Again, regional vs WN, not a fair comparison, and both are rather short flights for you where differences are a non-factor.

ADrum23 wrote:
3. Other than power ports, what do the legacy carriers have that is so great that WN doesn’t have?


C'mon now - nowhere did I color these things as "great" or the lack thereof as terrible. I went to the trouble of detailing my anecdotal views on kids, connections, food, IFE, check-in, etc. as they relate to WN vs others on "long trips". Its everything in aggregate. BNA to HI, will be a long trip for you, ya? So, I'm just saying that families headed to LIH or KOA from BNA may not view WN quite as favorably as you; or they might.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:04 am

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Another factor is "bags fly free" - for me, a terrible thing. Simply because when traveling with my kids, I always need to check bags, and so I compete with planeloads of others queuing with their free-to-check steamer trunks; on virtually every other carrier, the bag drop queue is much more direct, saving me great stress as I wrangle kids.


Like you, I almost always check bags with the kids. But since WN rolled out self-tagging, I don’t think I have ever waited to check a bag. With a handful of exceptions (MSY comes immediately to mind), the stations without self checking are small enough that lines are the exception.


I just checked WN's website to see where self-tagging is located. Wow, there's ALOT of big cities, and big airports without self tagging, and that is my exclusive experience. Yes, I get the difference between a "small station" and a small airport, but long lines at WN check in (mostly big cities/airports) are my experience. Look left, look right...... the other players are far less stressful (remember, colored by my need to deal with kids).
 
superjeff
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:45 pm

jplatts wrote:
superjeff wrote:
What I find interesting in this thread is that everybody seems to think Southwest will bring fare competition. They won’t. Look at the last few years on the mainland; they are not the low fare leader they once were. They will be competitive from secondary California cities, but anybody coming from further east may have nonstop options. Southwest has a following, but on six hour flights?


There are many major cities in the contiguous U.S. that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii and that are served by Southwest Airlines, including Albuquerque, Austin, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Louisville, Memphis, Nashville, New Orleans, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, San Antonio, Tulsa, and Wichita. Southwest already has nonstop service to California from most of these cities, but Southwest does not currently have nonstop service to California from CVG, CLE, SDF, MEM, OKC, TUL, or ICT. Southwest would be able to connect customers going to Hawaii from at least Austin, Kansas City, Nashville, and St. Louis if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from LAX.


No dispute that Southwest serves a lot of these cities, but any of them offers some sort of connecting options on at least one or two other airlines. And my comment that Southwest is no longer a "low fare leader" remains true. Some people love Southwest and may well choose them to Hawaii; however, those same people may also choose to stay with Alaska, American, Delta, Hawaiian, Virgin America, etc. who may offer connections via different cities than LAX or SFO but likely take the same overall amount of time. Southwest should be able to fill a couple of planes every day, but they are not going to substantially reduce fares.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:09 pm

I have a feeling this thread could continue until WN announces their Hawaii schedules, probably in 2018 sometime! The various topics being discussed here - more or less WN related - will never be finished.

Nothing wrong with that. This just may well become the longest thread in A.net history.

As a favor to all of us, I hope WN announces details of their HI service, and starts it, sooner rather than later!

bb
 
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WNflyer1523
Topic Author
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:12 am

SANFan wrote:
I have a feeling this thread could continue until WN announces their Hawaii schedules, probably in 2018 sometime! The various topics being discussed here - more or less WN related - will never be finished.

Nothing wrong with that. This just may well become the longest thread in A.net history.

As a favor to all of us, I hope WN announces details of their HI service, and starts it, sooner rather than later!

bb


Maybe with their upcoming schedule release they could release some hints about upcoming service. I don't expect them to open up flights for booking, as the flights don't start until 2019.
Someday KISP will succeed. Someday.
 
usflyguy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:34 am

FlyHappy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
They had damn well better install plugs between the seats if they're serious about these Hawaii flights. Hell, they should've installed them in the first place when they announced in-flight wifi!


My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.

WN offers BoB options for food on longer flights, or you can just bring a sandwich. Or you can go six hours without eating, which most adults do between the lunch and dinner hours on a daily basis.

I would happily fly WN to Hawaii if I were going to fly in Y class. WN may not offer the most revolutionary onboard product, but they have friendly staff, they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids.

When you travel with 1, 2, 3 or more kids you cannot so easily solve these problems are you casually comment on. I have 2 kids, both too young to leave alone - the shear amount of planning, effort and (sometimes) stress it takes to fly with them is very high. A 3 hour flight is not just a 3 hour flight, and certainly an all day one stop to Hawaii isn't just a simple connection; its its hours ahead at home dealing with provisions, transport, tantrums - then its terminal with baggage, car seats, checkin lines, **security lines**, unexpected (and unannounced) "potty emergencies". Then its trying to corral restless (and maybe very tired/cranky because of early flight time) kids at the gate. Then its the boarding nightmare (*****especially WN*****) , now we're on board, how many devices/power packs, etc do you suppose I need to try to keep them happy (and not bother other people)? I often don't even have the space and/or carrying capacity to bring enough "stuff".

It isn't about the lack of a single amenity (IFE, power, food) , or whether is "free" or paid - its the aggregate lack thereof.
If I take a good non-LCC flight, I can count on a helpful pre-board, IFE that heavily engages the kids, food that can sustain them and I, or even a premium class that make life even easier (I sometimes do this when traveling with just 1 kid).

I cannot count on having time to feed them or myself in the terminal (originating or connection point!). I cannot count on a kid not discharging a device after its use is called for at home/in transport to airport/in terminal... that can be a long time. When we land, the trip is not even close to over when there's little kids in play.

I see no evidence that WN has any "real" food for purchase on longer flights as you claim, beyond "additional snacks for purchase on longer flights". We all know they don't have traditional catering and certainly not sandwich service, much less ovens. I'm not being elitist, but I cannot feed a hungry child during long haul (maybe all-day) travel on mini-cans of Pringles. Even a banana would be superior.

Hopefully I've illustrated my perspective a little - just to add to it - I travel as a solo adult, no spouse. When I have 2 children with, neither of which can be fully trusted to go to the bathroom themselves (meaning the other may or may not be left alone) , its a challenge, and every little benefit an airline can offer is most appreciated (I too, have to go to the bathroom at times, ya?). WN's bare bones operations is simply less, less, less, less.

I'm no travel wimp. I've hauled my kids TPAC, transcon, Caribbean (w/turboprop hops), Mexico. TATL and HI is around the corner, South America is when, not if. I've done all those things I described as "hard" above, like pack-muling all the gear for kids because of WN/LCC , and its completely doable, with enough planning going out - its coming home that can be much harder as I am departing from a non-home setting with all new challenges. You're in LA, no? You know what a nightmare the car hire places are around LAX at night, with a couple of kids?

For those of you with the attitude: "then don't fly WN, fly something else" - I don't. I don't fly WN with kids (I sometimes do without, though it doesn't impress me). I'm simply pointing out that some people like me will eliminate them from consideration on long Hawaii operations.

For those of you with the attitude: "people flew with kids for decades before IFE, tablets, computers - you're being a baby" - not really. I flew long-haul from birth on DC-8, B707 and such; my parents hauled me around the world; I am aware of what the past was like. While electronic distractions and roller bags(!) did not exist, Airports were smaller, less congested, security was non-existent, attitudes towards kids was more lax, meals served on nearly any and every flight (terminal food operations weren't a massive profit center) ; this made travel with kids a fair bit easier.

WN doesn't need to install power/IFE/cater just to find success in the Hawaii market. But they put themselves at a disadvantage. I fly alot on my own dime, and while I'll acceptably torture myself on EasyJet or Spirit when it works best for me, I won't do so with my kids, and in the end, that does have a lasting impact on my attitude.


I flew UA four times in the last five days, twice in E+ and twice in F. E+ didn't have outlets on one flight and the outlets on the other flight were inop. In first, the outlets were inop on one flight and worked on the other. 1 for 4. I can only imagine if you got on one of those 3 flights expecting to have an outlet to charge your device but there was none.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1674
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:37 am

I always find it comical that people post long diatribes on threads pertaining to WN, only to say they don't fly WN... and it's always the same people.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:03 am

usflyguy wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.

WN offers BoB options for food on longer flights, or you can just bring a sandwich. Or you can go six hours without eating, which most adults do between the lunch and dinner hours on a daily basis.

I would happily fly WN to Hawaii if I were going to fly in Y class. WN may not offer the most revolutionary onboard product, but they have friendly staff, they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids.

When you travel with 1, 2, 3 or more kids you cannot so easily solve these problems are you casually comment on. I have 2 kids, both too young to leave alone - the shear amount of planning, effort and (sometimes) stress it takes to fly with them is very high. A 3 hour flight is not just a 3 hour flight, and certainly an all day one stop to Hawaii isn't just a simple connection; its its hours ahead at home dealing with provisions, transport, tantrums - then its terminal with baggage, car seats, checkin lines, **security lines**, unexpected (and unannounced) "potty emergencies". Then its trying to corral restless (and maybe very tired/cranky because of early flight time) kids at the gate. Then its the boarding nightmare (*****especially WN*****) , now we're on board, how many devices/power packs, etc do you suppose I need to try to keep them happy (and not bother other people)? I often don't even have the space and/or carrying capacity to bring enough "stuff".

It isn't about the lack of a single amenity (IFE, power, food) , or whether is "free" or paid - its the aggregate lack thereof.
If I take a good non-LCC flight, I can count on a helpful pre-board, IFE that heavily engages the kids, food that can sustain them and I, or even a premium class that make life even easier (I sometimes do this when traveling with just 1 kid).

I cannot count on having time to feed them or myself in the terminal (originating or connection point!). I cannot count on a kid not discharging a device after its use is called for at home/in transport to airport/in terminal... that can be a long time. When we land, the trip is not even close to over when there's little kids in play.

I see no evidence that WN has any "real" food for purchase on longer flights as you claim, beyond "additional snacks for purchase on longer flights". We all know they don't have traditional catering and certainly not sandwich service, much less ovens. I'm not being elitist, but I cannot feed a hungry child during long haul (maybe all-day) travel on mini-cans of Pringles. Even a banana would be superior.

Hopefully I've illustrated my perspective a little - just to add to it - I travel as a solo adult, no spouse. When I have 2 children with, neither of which can be fully trusted to go to the bathroom themselves (meaning the other may or may not be left alone) , its a challenge, and every little benefit an airline can offer is most appreciated (I too, have to go to the bathroom at times, ya?). WN's bare bones operations is simply less, less, less, less.

I'm no travel wimp. I've hauled my kids TPAC, transcon, Caribbean (w/turboprop hops), Mexico. TATL and HI is around the corner, South America is when, not if. I've done all those things I described as "hard" above, like pack-muling all the gear for kids because of WN/LCC , and its completely doable, with enough planning going out - its coming home that can be much harder as I am departing from a non-home setting with all new challenges. You're in LA, no? You know what a nightmare the car hire places are around LAX at night, with a couple of kids?

For those of you with the attitude: "then don't fly WN, fly something else" - I don't. I don't fly WN with kids (I sometimes do without, though it doesn't impress me). I'm simply pointing out that some people like me will eliminate them from consideration on long Hawaii operations.

For those of you with the attitude: "people flew with kids for decades before IFE, tablets, computers - you're being a baby" - not really. I flew long-haul from birth on DC-8, B707 and such; my parents hauled me around the world; I am aware of what the past was like. While electronic distractions and roller bags(!) did not exist, Airports were smaller, less congested, security was non-existent, attitudes towards kids was more lax, meals served on nearly any and every flight (terminal food operations weren't a massive profit center) ; this made travel with kids a fair bit easier.

WN doesn't need to install power/IFE/cater just to find success in the Hawaii market. But they put themselves at a disadvantage. I fly alot on my own dime, and while I'll acceptably torture myself on EasyJet or Spirit when it works best for me, I won't do so with my kids, and in the end, that does have a lasting impact on my attitude.


I flew UA four times in the last five days, twice in E+ and twice in F. E+ didn't have outlets on one flight and the outlets on the other flight were inop. In first, the outlets were inop on one flight and worked on the other. 1 for 4. I can only imagine if you got on one of those 3 flights expecting to have an outlet to charge your device but there was none.


From what I understand, this is why WN has stated to employees that they do not have plans to place charging outlets on their aircraft. They are difficult to maintain (and I presume, are probably costly). Secondly, and more importantly- it creates fewer opportunities to disappoint customers. There’s nothing worse than expecting to have something on a flight only to board a long-ish flight and not have it available. Case in point is their not so reliable WiFi service, which is being addressed (but it will take some time to introduce their new and faster service). Most people who rely on using their electronics have battery packs, and for those who don’t travel frequently- most Southwest gate areas have charging stations and outlets. For most travelers, the lack of charging outlets usually isn’t a make or break item for them if the flight schedule and airfare are desirable.
 
Bald1983
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:19 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
Bald1983 wrote:
The only advantage really is assigned seating on most competitors.


That seems like a disadvantage.

With Southwest, I pay $15 for EBCI and am able to get the exit-row seat with no seat in front of it about half the time. Given that that's considerably less than the premium charged for exit rows on legacy carriers, it's worth the risk of not getting one at all.


It is called choice. I prefer selecting a seat which is why I normally go elsewhere. SWA is a good airline, however.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:30 am

Some people like some things, some people like other things...

WN flies plenty of people from the east to west coast and back every day. Those people don't seem to have a problem with the flight length, so I doubt they will have a problem with a flight to Hawaii. If you don't like it you won't fly it but I have a feeling they won't have any trouble finding passengers.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:42 pm

Southwest's CEO said today they will NOT have redeyes from Hawaii. They also aren't ruling out doing inter-island turns before heading back to the mainland.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:01 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest's CEO said today they will NOT have redeyes from Hawaii. They also aren't ruling out doing inter-island turns before heading back to the mainland.

And the Current MX contract can’t prevent or delay WN 2018 Hawaii service plans.
From all the fancy dancing with words sounds like Hawaii service start date will become public during the next conference call in January.
I’m guessing a July or August start date.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:21 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest's CEO said today they will NOT have redeyes from Hawaii. They also aren't ruling out doing inter-island turns before heading back to the mainland.

And the Current MX contract can’t prevent or delay WN 2018 Hawaii service plans.
From all the fancy dancing with words sounds like Hawaii service start date will become public during the next conference call in January.
I’m guessing a July or August start date.

Flyguy


It won't stop the MX union from throwing a hissy fit which is what they are doing via an article that's floating around on Biz journal sites.
 
barney captain
Posts: 1715
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:24 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest's CEO said today they will NOT have redeyes from Hawaii. They also aren't ruling out doing inter-island turns before heading back to the mainland.

And the Current MX contract can’t prevent or delay WN 2018 Hawaii service plans.
From all the fancy dancing with words sounds like Hawaii service start date will become public during the next conference call in January.
I’m guessing a July or August start date.

Flyguy


It won't stop the MX union from throwing a hissy fit which is what they are doing via an article that's floating around on Biz journal sites.


I'm not sure I'd call waiting five years for a new contract (as long as most contracts run btw) a "hissy fit". It would seem they have an understandable level of frustration.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:24 pm

barney captain wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
And the Current MX contract can’t prevent or delay WN 2018 Hawaii service plans.
From all the fancy dancing with words sounds like Hawaii service start date will become public during the next conference call in January.
I’m guessing a July or August start date.

Flyguy


It won't stop the MX union from throwing a hissy fit which is what they are doing via an article that's floating around on Biz journal sites.


I'm not sure I'd call waiting five years for a new contract (as long as most contracts run btw) a "hissy fit". It would seem they have an understandable level of frustration.


I’m 110% pro union and while I’m still happy Hawaii finally coming I’m still baffled that GK dragging out these Union contracts.

Hopefully this will get worked out before Hawaii starts.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 88
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:29 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest's CEO said today they will NOT have redeyes from Hawaii. They also aren't ruling out doing inter-island turns before heading back to the mainland.



So we can possibly see the likes of tag on's like LAX-HNL-KOA-LAX for example?
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 748 752 753 762 763 772 77W DC9 MD80/88 DC10 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 CS300 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:16 pm

usflyguy wrote:
I always find it comical that people post long diatribes on threads pertaining to WN, only to say they don't fly WN... and it's always the same people.


It is one of the more entertaining aspects of Anet. They dislike WN so much that they will spend paragraphs of time to say all the reasons they would never fly them. Lucky for them they can fly other airlines. The best part is, they are doing just fine and financially, WN over the long run have outperformed their competitors financially. I am just looking for their posts in UA/AA/DL threads telling us why they are the only way to travel, the shangri-la of domestic air travel.

Anywho, I have heard that around the New Year they will announce the launch of flights, with earlier in 2018 looking like a possibility. This is all hearsay but would be great to see that sooner than later. As other mentioned, that January conference call might be a great time.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:29 pm

"Maybe now HA can start HNL-BWI and siphon some of the East Coast-Hawaii traffic that Southwest would have had, on a nonstop route that Southwest will never be able to operate under its current plan."

Up until this year's hurricane season, many of us couldn't care less about Hawaii. We got our kicks in the Caribbean.

HA - or WN - might actually make some inroads this year with many of the Caribbean resort islands in (temporary) disarray.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:16 pm

There are many SWA destinations in the Midwest, Southwest, Southeast, and Northeast that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from the Midwest, Southwest, Southeast, and the Northeast.

SWA destinations east of the West Coast that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii include ABQ, AUS, BWI, BHM, BUF, CLT, CVG, CLE, CMH, DSM, ELP, IND, MCI, LIT, SDF, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, OKC, OMA, PIT, RDU, STL, SAT, TUL, and ICT, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from these destinations.

Morning departures from Hawaii to the West Coast at 6:00 AM Hawaii time will get you to the west coast and Las Vegas before 3:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time if the flights are on time. Southwest will be able to connect passengers from Hawaii to the Midwest, Southeast, and the East Coast on the morning flights out of Hawaii to the contiguous U.S.

Southwest does not currently have any nonstop service to California or Las Vegas from CLT, CVG, or MEM, and CLT, CVG, and MEM all currently do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii on any airline (even though Delta did previously have nonstop service to HNL from CVG). In addition, many SWA destinations have nonstop service on Southwest to LAS but not to California, including BHM, BUF, CLE, DSM, LIT, SDF, OKC, RDU, TUL, and ICT. Southwest will need to add Hawaii to LAS nonstop service in order to connect passengers to some of the markets in the Midwest, Southeast, and Northeast from Hawaii and vice versa, and Southwest cannot connect passengers to Hawaii from CLT, CVG, and MEM without nonstop service to California or Las Vegas from these three destinations.
 
atsiang
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:40 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:55 pm

airzona11 wrote:
atsiang wrote:
Hard to choose WN when HA offers a better product, with widebody comfort and a meal and of course assigned seating. Over the years I've flown less and less on WN and the whole check in process is just terribly annoying. Now as UA Premier Gold there is really no reason for me to fly WN.


You fly enough to be Premier Gold with United so are a seasoned traveler, what is "terribly annoying" about having to check in 24 hours before a flight? You do not get a meal on UA to the islands in Y. The majority of their flights to the islands are single aisle on UA. And the same goes for all the other airlines too. For the Y traveler, hard to see anything that is not on par, let alone below when comparing Y class. They are more than likely going to be flying their newest equipment on the route as well. You are Gold so get Y+ which is an awesome UA product. But if you fly UA that much, why would you entertain HA or WN anyways?

This is such a tired argument. WN is the largest domestic US airline by passengers... they aren't a niche player. But that is the beauty of competition, and why WN entering the market is great for consumers. If you only fly First Class or feel WN doesn't meet your needs, you have options to purchase. Now the very large and captive WN frequent flyer base as an in-house option.


I wasn't really trying to argue anything but rather just stating my experience with flying both UA and WN. I've flown WN since 1994 and so have been a long time customer and seen them evolve over the past 2 decades. Overall, I've had good experience with them and their crew is friendly. However, there are little things about WN that for me is very annoying and like I mention the 24 hour check in. Even with setting an alarm for 24 hours before takeoff, there is no guarantee for me to get a decent boarding group. I much prefer seating assignments. In addition, because I started traveling a lot for business, it makes sense to fly UA. All the points I've accumulated allowed me to do two roundtrips from SFO to Sydney on award tickets. I couldn't do that with WN.
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:45 am

jplatts wrote:
There are many SWA destinations in the Midwest, Southwest, Southeast, and Northeast that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from the Midwest, Southwest, Southeast, and the Northeast.

SWA destinations east of the West Coast that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii include ABQ, AUS, BWI, BHM, BUF, CLT, CVG, CLE, CMH, DSM, ELP, IND, MCI, LIT, SDF, MEM, MKE, BNA, MSY, OKC, OMA, PIT, RDU, STL, SAT, TUL, and ICT, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from these destinations.

Morning departures from Hawaii to the West Coast at 6:00 AM Hawaii time will get you to the west coast and Las Vegas before 3:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time if the flights are on time. Southwest will be able to connect passengers from Hawaii to the Midwest, Southeast, and the East Coast on the morning flights out of Hawaii to the contiguous U.S.

Southwest does not currently have any nonstop service to California or Las Vegas from CLT, CVG, or MEM, and CLT, CVG, and MEM all currently do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii on any airline (even though Delta did previously have nonstop service to HNL from CVG). In addition, many SWA destinations have nonstop service on Southwest to LAS but not to California, including BHM, BUF, CLE, DSM, LIT, SDF, OKC, RDU, TUL, and ICT. Southwest will need to add Hawaii to LAS nonstop service in order to connect passengers to some of the markets in the Midwest, Southeast, and Northeast from Hawaii and vice versa, and Southwest cannot connect passengers to Hawaii from CLT, CVG, and MEM without nonstop service to California or Las Vegas from these three destinations.


WN is not going to have a long run serving Hawaii if they are dependent on connections from CLT (AA stronghold), CVG and MEM (DL strongholds). California to Hawaii is the largest market, that is what they will set out to capture. WN is going to be wanting to attract as much O/D as they can. All of their large stations outside the 737 range, have plenty of 1-stop options.

What is the combined daily Hawaii demand for BHM, BUF, CLE, DSM, LIT, SDF, OKC, RDU, TUL, and ICT? This is the traffic that the US3 are perfect for capturing with their large Hub-Spoke model.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:04 am

airzona11 wrote:
WN is not going to have a long run serving Hawaii if they are dependent on connections from CLT (AA stronghold), CVG and MEM (DL strongholds). California to Hawaii is the largest market, that is what they will set out to capture. WN is going to be wanting to attract as much O/D as they can. All of their large stations outside the 737 range, have plenty of 1-stop options.

What is the combined daily Hawaii demand for BHM, BUF, CLE, DSM, LIT, SDF, OKC, RDU, TUL, and ICT? This is the traffic that the US3 are perfect for capturing with their large Hub-Spoke model.


DL no longer has a hub at MEM, and DL no longer serves its CVG, SEA, and SLC hubs nonstop from MEM. Delta only has nonstop service from MEM to its ATL, MSP, DTW, LGA, and LAX hubs and seasonal nonstop service from MEM to MCO.

I agree that most of the demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii will be from markets other than CLT, CVG, and MEM, and I also agree that there will certainly be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from the California airports that will have nonstop service to Hawaii on Southwest. In addition, Sacramento is one of the few markets served by a single commercial airport where Southwest Airlines has over 50% market share, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from SMF with Southwest having over 50% market share at SMF.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:44 am

West Coast to HI - that is the focus of the upcoming launch.

Anything else (especially east of PHX/LAS) will be incidental - it is much easier and faster to get to the Caribbean from those places.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:21 am

jplatts wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
WN is not going to have a long run serving Hawaii if they are dependent on connections from CLT (AA stronghold), CVG and MEM (DL strongholds). California to Hawaii is the largest market, that is what they will set out to capture. WN is going to be wanting to attract as much O/D as they can. All of their large stations outside the 737 range, have plenty of 1-stop options.

What is the combined daily Hawaii demand for BHM, BUF, CLE, DSM, LIT, SDF, OKC, RDU, TUL, and ICT? This is the traffic that the US3 are perfect for capturing with their large Hub-Spoke model.


DL no longer has a hub at MEM, and DL no longer serves its CVG, SEA, and SLC hubs nonstop from MEM. Delta only has nonstop service from MEM to its ATL, MSP, DTW, LGA, and LAX hubs and seasonal nonstop service from MEM to MCO.

I agree that most of the demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii will be from markets other than CLT, CVG, and MEM, and I also agree that there will certainly be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from the California airports that will have nonstop service to Hawaii on Southwest. In addition, Sacramento is one of the few markets served by a single commercial airport where Southwest Airlines has over 50% market share, and there will be demand for Southwest flights to Hawaii from SMF with Southwest having over 50% market share at SMF.


SMF I think for sure will have WN service to Hawaii. Good point.

Not to dwell on it, but DL is still the largest single FF base in those cities, and you can 1 stop to Hawaii very easily. CVG/MEM aren't big cities/minimal demand to the islands.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 am

DocLightning wrote:
[quote="AWACSooner"
My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation.


My devices are fully charged when I board an aircraft provided I've found an outlet in the airport. Airports are getting much better about providing power ports at gate seating, but not every airport has that yet. I've also found that the batteries in my devices seem to bleed energy during flight much faster than on the ground. I have no idea why. I recently flew SAN-JFK on DL and made it across the country on a single charge, but I was just about empty when I landed. Having sufficient power when you leave the airport is important too - I think the airlines need to provide power ports at every seat.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:46 pm

A second laptop battery is another option, assuming TSA will let one on the plane. They were getting snarky with folks the last time I flew a couple of weeks ago.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:50 am

FWIW -

Next announcement. We expect Southwest to announce the specifics of their Hawaii flights shortly, perhaps as early as next month! Cities served may include Oakland, Los Angeles, San Jose, San Diego, Las Vegas, and Phoenix. Service on the first of these routes may begin in summer 2018, or it could come later in the year. That depends on how final ETOPS certification and other logistics pan out. We should also start to see some Hawaii test flights in the not too distant future.

Aircraft. Flights are set to start on existing 737-800 aircraft, as are being used by other carriers on flights to Hawaii. They will then transition to their new 737 MAX 8 and maybe 737 MAX 7. The latter brings cities like Denver and beyond into range.

Inter-island. Connecting flights from outer islands are a likely start for inter-island. For example, routes such as Oakland/Honolulu/Lihue/Oakland. That could mean one-stop to some islands and the opportunity for some inter-island only service as a teaser if nothing else.

Overnight flights. There will be no red-eye flights at the outset. Those may come later.


http://beatofhawaii.com/southwest-hawai ... ne-update/
Southeast Of Disorder
 
commpilot
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:14 pm

No reason to wonder who in their right mind will fly Southwest from California to Hawaii. The company doesn't have a hard time finding people who will fly that distance. Plus their 737-800s have plenty of seat pitch for even the taller people.

BWI OAK: 2126nm
BWI SJC: 2119nm
BWI SEA: 2029nm
BWI LAX: 2024nm


Using OAK HNL as probably the first city to get service that is 2093nm.

Where's the big deal with flying Southwest.
 
tomaheath
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:22 pm

commpilot wrote:
No reason to wonder who in their right mind will fly Southwest from California to Hawaii. The company doesn't have a hard time finding people who will fly that distance. Plus their 737-800s have plenty of seat pitch for even the taller people.

BWI OAK: 2126nm
BWI SJC: 2119nm
BWI SEA: 2029nm
BWI LAX: 2024nm


Using OAK HNL as probably the first city to get service that is 2093nm.

Where's the big deal with flying Southwest.

I recently flew WN on a slightly shorter BWI-PHX it was great they came through the cabin 4 times with snacks and drinks.
 
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Lysave
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:04 pm

I mean it's all good but what aircraft would they use. Probably a 787 or an a350.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:13 pm

barney captain wrote:
FWIW -

Next announcement. We expect Southwest to announce the specifics of their Hawaii flights shortly, perhaps as early as next month! Cities served may include Oakland, Los Angeles, San Jose, San Diego, Las Vegas, and Phoenix. Service on the first of these routes may begin in summer 2018, or it could come later in the year. That depends on how final ETOPS certification and other logistics pan out. We should also start to see some Hawaii test flights in the not too distant future.

Aircraft. Flights are set to start on existing 737-800 aircraft, as are being used by other carriers on flights to Hawaii. They will then transition to their new 737 MAX 8 and maybe 737 MAX 7. The latter brings cities like Denver and beyond into range.

Inter-island. Connecting flights from outer islands are a likely start for inter-island. For example, routes such as Oakland/Honolulu/Lihue/Oakland. That could mean one-stop to some islands and the opportunity for some inter-island only service as a teaser if nothing else.

Overnight flights. There will be no red-eye flights at the outset. Those may come later.


http://beatofhawaii.com/southwest-hawai ... ne-update/


Makes more sense on the WN addition of MSP-OAK, begin July 15th.
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:51 pm

I called this a year ago...

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:58 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
I called this a year ago...

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?


I highly doubt it. From the article posted earlier in the thread, the implications were that only the 738- and 7M8-fleets were candidates for ETOPS certification.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:25 am

nmdrdh787 wrote:
I called this a year ago...

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?


No, none. Only the first 29 800's are ETOPS (N83XXX) and just one MAX.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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SANFan
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:14 am

barney captain wrote:


Thanx for posting the link to the update, barney'. Nothing earthshaking but it's nice to hear the latest updates, and the fact that WN is apparently moving forward with Hawaii!

SteveXC500 wrote:
Makes more sense on the WN addition of MSP-OAK, begin July 15th.


I don't get the fascination of some on this thread about the OAK-MSP flight having anything to do with WN's Hawaii service. Sure, if schedules happen to be just right, there might be a connection option to MSP; likewise, there will be lots of connections to lots of different cities east of California from the 4-5 gateways WN will use. Are there expectations that 100s of people a day in MSP are waiting in line to fly a 1-stop WN flight to Hawaii, via Oakland, CA?

The CA stations that seem most likely to be used by WN as their major Hawaii gateways -- LAX, OAK, SAN -- are all stations of 100+ daily departures and are already used for many daily network-wide connections. WN will tie into those with their Hawaii flights. Now that WN will be flying OAK-MSP next July makes that just one of the many opportunities.

I really doubt that WN decided to add OAK-MSP for any particular reason besides local O&D traffic between the East Bay and the Twin Cites. Heck, HI flights might not even start until 2019... (And btw, I wouldn't be surprise to see WN add service from MSP to other California stations sooner rather than later -- even perhaps before their HI service begins...)

bb
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:40 pm

DL non-stop from MSP is over $1,000 RT. I would guess plenty would get in line for a 1-stop if WN had it priced lower.

OAK is a great first choice for WN out of MSP because it is not currently served non-stop by any other airline. Granted, you can fly to any other airport in the bay area.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:41 pm

Where's the big deal with flying Southwest.


Price, my good friend, price! Assuming Southwest can make a dent in fares to the islands and back, something that would make flying in an all coach (presumably) configuration worthwhile, then that's the big deal. For me, that would mean knocking $200-300 off of the price of a comparable ticket on the US3. Others will have different economic views.

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?


Aloha just did okay on that route. I forget the load numbers but it's come up from time to time before. Going form memory (someone whose memory is better, please chime in) they had to block out some seats in order to operate out of SNA. That reduced the overall economic competitiveness of the route, and a -700 isn't the biggest bird around, anyway. Losing those seats didn't help the bottom line. Continental also flew SNA-OGG not long before the merger and didn't remain there long, either. Flying out of SNA certainly presents some problems!

Personally, I'm with you. I would love to see this route, along with ONT-'Da Islands, which actually is a better alternative operationally due to its longer runway. But heck, I live 25 minutes from SNA down the 5 and 405 in decent traffic. The idea of rolling out of bed, avoiding the drive up to LAX and walking into the Kihei surf by 3 local time is danged appealing!

Bob
 
michman
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:36 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
DL non-stop from MSP is over $1,000 RT. I would guess plenty would get in line for a 1-stop if WN had it priced lower.

OAK is a great first choice for WN out of MSP because it is not currently served non-stop by any other airline. Granted, you can fly to any other airport in the bay area.


Without red-eye flights from Hawaii, there's no way a connection is going to work as the OAK-MSP flight departs at 10:40AM. Unless WN starts allowing overnight layovers on a single ticket, flyers are going to have to book connections as two separate tickets. As a number of other posters have mentioned, these flights will largely be for O/D flyers with a few connection options to/from other western cities. This is similar to the model for a number of WN's international beach destinations.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:38 pm

michman wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
DL non-stop from MSP is over $1,000 RT. I would guess plenty would get in line for a 1-stop if WN had it priced lower.

OAK is a great first choice for WN out of MSP because it is not currently served non-stop by any other airline. Granted, you can fly to any other airport in the bay area.


Without red-eye flights from Hawaii, there's no way a connection is going to work as the OAK-MSP flight departs at 10:40AM. Unless WN starts allowing overnight layovers on a single ticket, flyers are going to have to book connections as two separate tickets. As a number of other posters have mentioned, these flights will largely be for O/D flyers with a few connection options to/from other western cities. This is similar to the model for a number of WN's international beach destinations.


While it doesn't help MSP, a hypothetical morning departure from Hawaii to the west coast would likely catch any number of late afternoon flights to points east of the Rockies . Heck, a thru flight to MDW would probably catch the late bank at MDW and allow connections to virtually every city in the network.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CHI87LG
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:43 pm

WN will take care of its passengers, hell, it's got to be more comfortable than a UA 772 in economy.
 
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keoki
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm

WN will do just fine. They have a very loyal following. The Kama'aina's (local Hawaiian peeps including myself) have been begging WN to the islands for years. They can't wait for WN to serve LIH, HNL, OGG, ITO, & KOA non-stop to the west coast.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:01 pm

barney captain wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
I called this a year ago...

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?


No, none. Only the first 29 800's are ETOPS (N83XXX) and just one MAX.


More than one MAX is ETOPS equipped. I haven't figured ETOPS numbering pattern for the MAXs yet
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
I called this a year ago...

I would love to see WN reopen HNL-SNA, a former Aloha 73G route that AFAIK did decently well. Are any of WN's 73G's ETOPs though?


No, none. Only the first 29 800's are ETOPS (N83XXX) and just one MAX.


More than one MAX is ETOPS equipped. I haven't figured ETOPS numbering pattern for the MAXs yet


Ah yes, a few more snuck in -

N8713M, N8714Q and N8715Q are all showing ETOPS. They are getting delivered out of numerical sequence so it's hard to keep up for sure. It looks like everything after N8713M are being equipped - but I have no idea how many there will be in total.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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aloha73g
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 pm

SNA-OGG was Aloha's highest yielding route, followed closely by SNA-HNL. SNA (as well as OAK, SAN and SMF) were always profitable for AQ. AQ's -700s were not weight restricted out of SNA and no seats were blocked. 737-800s often have to block seats during winter months or do a fuel stop in the Bay Area for ETOPs considerations.

Granted, the high yields out of SNA were partly due to Aloha being able to sell out the first class cabin, and the fact Aloha (like Hawaiian) offered a somewhat "premium" product (free meals & free mai tais for all, fresh baked cookies and milk, etc).

CO's SNA-Hawaii service was hurt IMHO by poor scheduling. While Aloha scheduled similarly to Hawaiian to cater to west coast departing tourists, CO scheduled for aircraft utilization with a less desirable red-eye heading back to SNA.

There is money to be made from SNA-Hawaii, but unfortunately I don't think the right airline with the right aircraft have come into the picture since Aloha went under.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

There is money to be made from SNA-Hawaii, but unfortunately I don't think the right airline with the right aircraft have come into the picture since Aloha went under.


I could certainly see the MAX 7 fill that void with WN.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
olddominion727
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:39 pm

DEN, OAK, SEA, SJC, PDX, LAS, PHX, SNA, GEG, SMF... I have seen 757's go 8 hrs... WN can use their MAX's
 
seven3seven
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:41 pm

I absolutely do hope the mechanics delay the launch due to no contract and then get PAID!
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:21 am

SteveXC500 wrote:
DL non-stop from MSP is over $1,000 RT. I would guess plenty would get in line for a 1-stop if WN had it priced lower.

OAK is a great first choice for WN out of MSP because it is not currently served non-stop by any other airline. Granted, you can fly to any other airport in the bay area.


How do landing fees, etc. compare between KOAK, KSFO and KSJC? I see that prices from those airports to KDAL are typically within a few dollars of each other.

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