barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:08 pm

flydulles wrote:
I would think We should expect A lot of red eyes in the routes my guess


Again, not according to the Q&A

Will you offer red-eye/overnight service?

Southwest does not currently offer overnight, so called redeye flights, and we have no plans to introduce that modification to our flight scheduling, at this time.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
flydulles
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:43 pm

Once they get the ok on gates ect. How long does it take to start up a new city hanging up the swa signs in the gate ways ect ? I guess we way early for that still?
 
obelau24
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm

If WN follows their current model, they probably want about 10 flights per island to start - is that correct? Even if you halve it to 5 flights per day per island, not using red eyes is going to mean 5 planes on the ground around the same time and to be honest HNL is really close to max capacity in the daytime - and during the off-peak day hours, it's usually only gates on the Ewa side that are open - only a couple of which can take a 737. I don't know OGG all that well but it's not a big terminal there and I'm sure they're hurting for gates too during the day. That being said, the state of HI wants WN bad so I'm curious what they're going to do to accommodate their volume.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:29 pm

obelau24 wrote:
If WN follows their current model, they probably want about 10 flights per island to start - is that correct? Even if you halve it to 5 flights per day per island, not using red eyes is going to mean 5 planes on the ground around the same time and to be honest HNL is really close to max capacity in the daytime - and during the off-peak day hours, it's usually only gates on the Ewa side that are open - only a couple of which can take a 737. I don't know OGG all that well but it's not a big terminal there and I'm sure they're hurting for gates too during the day. That being said, the state of HI wants WN bad so I'm curious what they're going to do to accommodate their volume.



Using HNL as the likely biggest station, I wouldn't expect more than 5 aircraft on the ground at the most (one from each of the 5 probable CA cities).

Does anyone know if remote parking is an option? I suspect with the Mayor of HNL standing shoulder to shoulder on the beach during the announcement, they have an agreement already in place.
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flydulles
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:34 pm

I kind a don't see any wheels up on 1st fight till at least thanksgiving Christmas 2018 what about test of you?
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:43 pm

flydulles wrote:
I kind a don't see any wheels up on 1st fight till at least thanksgiving Christmas 2018 what about test of you?


That's the $64 question, I do know the ETOPS program has been going secretly for a while and is farther along than most thought. My guess is the reason HI was announced was that the program was at a point where they would have to start doing certification items that couldn't be kept out of the public view

Ain't no way a WN 738 crosses the Pacific without an Anetter getting wind of it ;)

So we could see proving runs in very short order - meaning ETOPS authorization may come in time for a summer launch.
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:12 pm

barney captain wrote:
obelau24 wrote:
If WN follows their current model, they probably want about 10 flights per island to start - is that correct? Even if you halve it to 5 flights per day per island, not using red eyes is going to mean 5 planes on the ground around the same time and to be honest HNL is really close to max capacity in the daytime - and during the off-peak day hours, it's usually only gates on the Ewa side that are open - only a couple of which can take a 737. I don't know OGG all that well but it's not a big terminal there and I'm sure they're hurting for gates too during the day. That being said, the state of HI wants WN bad so I'm curious what they're going to do to accommodate their volume.



Using HNL as the likely biggest station, I wouldn't expect more than 5 aircraft on the ground at the most (one from each of the 5 probable CA cities).

Does anyone know if remote parking is an option? I suspect with the Mayor of HNL standing shoulder to shoulder on the beach during the announcement, they have an agreement already in place.


In this morning's Star Advertiser, the Hawaii Dept. of Transportation spokesman Tim Sakahara said "There is capacity at our airports to accommodate additional carriers,” he said. “We will work with the new airline to accommodate its logistical needs as it prepares to launch service next year. Adding a major airline to the Hawaii market will bring additional choices for residents and visitors and is anticipated to generate additional revenue for the state.”

Not exactly convincing, considering that the comments on anything related to Southwest coming to Hawaii is whether there is gate space. Please also note that they did not mention Maui as part of the initial plan of service to Hawaii. As I suspected, Kahului is almost, if not already, at capacity and is not able to take on new services. The statement that there is room at the airports, without any more details, just tells me that this is all a "work in progress" and a "wish and hope" that the construction on the mauka extension at the interisland terminal starts real soon.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:32 pm

Good info - thank you.
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dalagent
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:36 pm

im maint in dallas, from internal emai from Kelly.

Our focus will now turn to launching the MAX 7, and that will be a couple more years. And there’s work still to be done on getting that into service… I think the MAX 9 isn’t incrementally better enough for us to look at that one seriously. On down the road, maybe the MAX 10 is something that would be logical for us to look at. But right now, we’re not discussing it, we’re not seriously considering it, other than just to keep up with Boeing and see what they’re doing with their product line.
 
flydulles
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:09 pm

which airports i wonder would have to think SFO LAX then what oak ? phoneix? sandiego (small airport but SWA big there)? vegas?
 
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SANFan
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:13 pm

obelau24 wrote:
If WN follows their current model, they probably want about 10 flights per island to start - is that correct? Even if you halve it to 5 flights per day per island, not using red eyes is going to mean 5 planes on the ground around the same time and to be honest HNL is really close to max capacity in the daytime - and during the off-peak day hours, it's usually only gates on the Ewa side that are open - only a couple of which can take a 737. I don't know OGG all that well but it's not a big terminal there and I'm sure they're hurting for gates too during the day. That being said, the state of HI wants WN bad so I'm curious what they're going to do to accommodate their volume.

I think you are way high on your expectations of frequency. I also don't think the normal WN business model of # of flights applies in the case of Hawaii. These will all be long-hauls and I would think perhaps a couple of flights per day to each of the outer islands and maybe 3 or possibly 4/day to HNL for starters.

I could see something like this for a 2-installment start-up:
> LAS-OAK-HNL (r/t) x1
> PHX-SAN-HNL (r/t) x1
> MDW-LAX-HNL (r/t) x1.
> DEN-SJC-HNL (r/t) x1
> DEN-SAN-OGG (r/t) x1
> LAS-LAX-OGG (r/t) x1
> DEN-OAK-KOA (r/t) x1
> LAS-LAX-KOA (r/t) x1
> PHX-SAN-LIH (r/t) x1
> MDW-OAK-LIH (r/t) x1

This would provide a variety of flights from WN's CA/west coast gateways, including many excellent 1-stop connection opportunities to other WN cities, plus thru-flights to the airline's major hubs, where additional connections would be available. The timing of the flights between HI and the w/c would vary but could be set to maximize connections where possible. I have not included any inter-island flying by WN as that seems to be a big question mark right now.

It is my understanding that ground time of at least :90 minutes is required prior to a twin taking off for the Islands; the departures from HI back to the mainland do not require that long for ETOPS pre-flight checks. (This is all based on what I've read/heard about AS's Hawaii ops, and seen in their schedules.)

I know that my suggested schedules do not necessarily agree with info included in the various announcements already released but all we can do is guess at this point about what will happen and what will not happen. I would expect SJC and SMF would see (more) service to the Islands as schedules are expanded.

bb
 
flydulles
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:44 pm

Does anybody think they at least preparing staffing from current bases move there?
Last edited by flydulles on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:47 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
IFE on WN is obviously BYOD. Is that too much to ask of passengers?


Too much to ask of passengers on a 6-8 hour flight without power outlets.
 
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jaybird
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:10 pm

barney captain wrote:
obelau24 wrote:
I suspect with the Mayor of HNL standing shoulder to shoulder on the beach during the announcement, they have an agreement already in place.


That was the Governor of Hawaii - not the Mayor of Honolulu. :-)

With ETOPS being new to them - I'm guessing their schedule is going to be more limited that what folks on here are suggesting. Perhaps just a few flights a day to Honolulu before they expand out to the Neighbor Islands.

Does Southwest contract out services? Check-in/gate? ramp services?
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:19 am

jaybird wrote:
barney captain wrote:
obelau24 wrote:
I suspect with the Mayor of HNL standing shoulder to shoulder on the beach during the announcement, they have an agreement already in place.


That was the Governor of Hawaii - not the Mayor of Honolulu. :-)

With ETOPS being new to them - I'm guessing their schedule is going to be more limited that what folks on here are suggesting. Perhaps just a few flights a day to Honolulu before they expand out to the Neighbor Islands.

Does Southwest contract out services? Check-in/gate? ramp services?



Thanks for that correction on the VIP -

Yes, we contract out gate and ramp services at out international stations and a few smaller domestic ones.
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cschleic
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:03 am

flydulles wrote:
I would think We should expect A lot of red eyes in the routes my guess


This would be a first for WN, yes? No red eyes at all in their history, IIRC. And all the discussion about distances. As was pointed out, they have routes nearly as long as LAX - HNL now. The issue will be the different market and yields.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:04 am

SteveXC500 wrote:
IFE on WN is obviously BYOD. Is that too much to ask of passengers?


A little bit, when there are no power outlets at the seat.
Union YES!
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:06 am

Bald1983 wrote:
The only advantage really is assigned seating on most competitors.


That seems like a disadvantage.

With Southwest, I pay $15 for EBCI and am able to get the exit-row seat with no seat in front of it about half the time. Given that that's considerably less than the premium charged for exit rows on legacy carriers, it's worth the risk of not getting one at all.
Union YES!
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:28 am

cschleic wrote:
flydulles wrote:
I would think We should expect A lot of red eyes in the routes my guess


This would be a first for WN, yes? No red eyes at all in their history, IIRC. And all the discussion about distances. As was pointed out, they have routes nearly as long as LAX - HNL now. The issue will be the different market and yields.


HNL is actually closer to OAK than BWI, MCO, and EWR are, and Southwest has nonstop routes out of OAK to the East Coast that are longer than the OAK-HNL nonstop route.

On the other hand, LAX is closer to NYC and East Coast destinations south of NYC than LAX is to Hawaii.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:04 am

AWACSooner wrote:
They had damn well better install plugs between the seats if they're serious about these Hawaii flights. Hell, they should've installed them in the first place when they announced in-flight wifi!


My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.

WN offers BoB options for food on longer flights, or you can just bring a sandwich. Or you can go six hours without eating, which most adults do between the lunch and dinner hours on a daily basis.

I would happily fly WN to Hawaii if I were going to fly in Y class. WN may not offer the most revolutionary onboard product, but they have friendly staff, they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:11 am

My guess is that WN will exclusively use the 737 MAX 8 on the routes to Hawaii from the US West Coast.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:11 am

RayChuang wrote:
My guess is that WN will exclusively use the 737 MAX 8 on the routes to Hawaii from the US West Coast.


Your guess would be wrong.

It's really not that hard - read the press release - 800's first followed eventually by the MAX.
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barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:13 am

DocLightning wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
They had damn well better install plugs between the seats if they're serious about these Hawaii flights. Hell, they should've installed them in the first place when they announced in-flight wifi!


My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.

WN offers BoB options for food on longer flights, or you can just bring a sandwich. Or you can go six hours without eating, which most adults do between the lunch and dinner hours on a daily basis.

I would happily fly WN to Hawaii if I were going to fly in Y class. WN may not offer the most revolutionary onboard product, but they have friendly staff, they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Ya know Doc, I appreciate your perspective on this. And thank you, I may have to reevaluate my position on the need for inflight charging.
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:40 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/10/1 ... later.html
This is pretty good of them! They must’ve had his tweet stored and waiting for the perfect time. LOL
Someday KISP will succeed. Someday.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:47 pm

barney captain wrote:
RayChuang wrote:
My guess is that WN will exclusively use the 737 MAX 8 on the routes to Hawaii from the US West Coast.


Your guess would be wrong.

It's really not that hard - read the press release - 800's first followed eventually by the MAX.


I think he may mean eventually they will use the 737 MAX 8 exclusively once they have enough in their fleet (as they should).
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:01 am

http://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/southwest/southwest-hawaii-flights

I find this interesting. A Wolfe research analyst thinks Southwest will lose a ton of money on Hawaiian flights and eventually pull out of the market. He was quoted as saying,

"We expect Southwest will bleed margins here for a couple years before scaling back or exiting outright."

And why exactly does he think that? Other than no hot meals or in-seat entertainment/power outlets, flying WN to Hawaii will be no different than flying there in Y on UA/AA/DL/AS and Hawaiian.

WN is now the third largest airline in America, he thinks there won't be enough demand that WN will bleed margins? Please. As long as WN doesn't overextend themselves here, they should do fine. In fact, I'd take WN to HNL over UA any day of the week.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:24 am

ADrum23 wrote:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/southwest/southwest-hawaii-flights

I find this interesting. A Wolfe research analyst thinks Southwest will lose a ton of money on Hawaiian flights and eventually pull out of the market. He was quoted as saying,

"We expect Southwest will bleed margins here for a couple years before scaling back or exiting outright."

And why exactly does he think that? Other than no hot meals or in-seat entertainment/power outlets, flying WN to Hawaii will be no different than flying there in Y on UA/AA/DL/AS and Hawaiian.

WN is now the third largest airline in America, he thinks there won't be enough demand that WN will bleed margins? Please. As long as WN doesn't overextend themselves here, they should do fine. In fact, I'd take WN to HNL over UA any day of the week.

That's just Hunter Keay being Hunter Keay. He always has an axe to grind with things WN does and usually voices his opinion during Q&A on earnings calls with the analysts.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:03 am

DocLightning wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.
.

So I'm expected to keep my ipod/Ipad fully charged for the 4-5 hour flight from the east coast to the west coast, have a 30 minute layover, and then keep it fully charged on another 5-6 hour flight to Hawaii.
Got it.

It's all the customer's fault that WN can't bother to increase their weight an additional 3-400 pounds to install the in-seat ports.
 
PDX88
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:05 am

SteveXC500 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
evank516 wrote:
[
Regardless, if I'm going to Hawaii, I'm flying DL. There's no way I can manage to sit on a 737MAX with nothing to do for the length of that flight.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Other than 1 bag that flies free, does WN offer any onboard amenities for free? Alcohol, food, in-seat IFE?


Devil's advocate a bit, but what value is free alcohol? It's $5-$8 a drink.


A few years ago, before any of the legacies offered free snacks in economy, I seriously had friends that booked WN because "they're so much better because they give you free snacks on board." Yep, price be damned, they booked a specific airline for a 50 cent bag of peanuts. It's amazing what people consider important when they fly.
 
superjeff
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:50 am

What I find interesting in this thread is that everybody seems to think Southwest will bring fare competition. They won’t. Look at the last few years on the mainland; they are not the low fare leader they once were. They will be competitive from secondary California cities, but anybody coming from further east may have nonstop options. Southwest has a following, but on six hour flights?
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:09 am

AWACSooner wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.
.

So I'm expected to keep my ipod/Ipad fully charged for the 4-5 hour flight from the east coast to the west coast, have a 30 minute layover, and then keep it fully charged on another 5-6 hour flight to Hawaii.
Got it.

It's all the customer's fault that WN can't bother to increase their weight an additional 3-400 pounds to install the in-seat ports.


This is why the Good Lord invented power packs.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
CHI87LG
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:39 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
In fact, I'd take WN to HNL over UA any day of the week.

After sitting in the sardine-can UA 772, yes, definitely. I co-sign this idea. WN is just so much less of an ordeal.

No IFE/charging ports? Bring a book. You're going to freaking Hawaii!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:53 pm

I would suspect that WN's FF plan redemption wouldn't be able to be used without strong restrictions, very limited numbers of seats avaiable, or very high points requirements for Hawaii - mainland flights.
As to ops out of PHX, SLT, and LAS, that may not be possible during high heat conditions or only with capacity restraints which would kill profits.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:32 pm

superjeff wrote:
What I find interesting in this thread is that everybody seems to think Southwest will bring fare competition. They won’t. Look at the last few years on the mainland; they are not the low fare leader they once were. They will be competitive from secondary California cities, but anybody coming from further east may have nonstop options. Southwest has a following, but on six hour flights?


There are many major cities in the contiguous U.S. that do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii and that are served by Southwest Airlines, including Albuquerque, Austin, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Louisville, Memphis, Nashville, New Orleans, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, San Antonio, Tulsa, and Wichita. Southwest already has nonstop service to California from most of these cities, but Southwest does not currently have nonstop service to California from CVG, CLE, SDF, MEM, OKC, TUL, or ICT. Southwest would be able to connect customers going to Hawaii from at least Austin, Kansas City, Nashville, and St. Louis if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from LAX.
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:53 pm

You propensity for needlessly listing off endless city pairs is exhausting.

HI will be served NS from CA and likely LAS/PHX at some point.
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KentB27
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:12 pm

Well, it's about damn time. This rumor has been getting pushed around since the late 90's.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:45 pm

Does any know the minimum turn time for ETOPS requirements! I'm asking because WN normally turn it's "NEAR"and international flights is 55 mins.
Wondering if this will work for WN?

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:36 pm

barney captain wrote:
You propensity for needlessly listing off endless city pairs is exhausting.

HI will be served NS from CA and likely LAS/PHX at some point.


Maybe DEN once the MAX 7 comes.

SEA and PDX I can't see because of the intense competition from AS and DL.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:24 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
SEA and PDX I can't see because of the intense competition from AS and DL.


Southwest is actually bigger at PDX than it is at SEA, and Southwest has nonstop service to SFO, LAX, BUR, and ONT from PDX but not from SEA. Southwest also has 10 additional flights a day out of PDX than it does out of SEA, and Delta Air Lines does not have a hub at PDX. There are also more passengers who travel to and from PDX on Southwest than passengers who travel to and from SEA on Southwest, with 3,455,000 passengers per year to and from PDX on Southwest and with 3,220,000 arriving and deplaning passengers per year to and from SEA on Southwest.

Delta does have nonstop service to HNL, OGG, and KOA from SEA and will be starting nonstop service from SEA to LIH on December 21st. On the other hand, Delta only has 1 seasonal nonstop between PDX and HNL on the holidays from December 21st through January 2nd, but Delta does not serve OGG, KOA, or LIH nonstop from PDX.

While Southwest will face intense competition from Alaska if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from PDX, Southwest would not face intense competition from Delta on PDX to Hawaii nonstop service if it adds PDX to Hawaii nonstop service.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:37 pm

DocLightning wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
They had damn well better install plugs between the seats if they're serious about these Hawaii flights. Hell, they should've installed them in the first place when they announced in-flight wifi!


My laptop, iPad Mini, and iPhone 7 all will power themselves for five hours. Whenever you board an airplane, you should have all your devices charged. That's not an unrealistic expectation. There are also portable power banks. There is no reason you need in-seat power on a 6 hour flight other than opportunity charging. In 2017 most devices need to be charged once per day under normal use and twice per day under heavy use. If you're adult enough to buy a ticket to Hawaii, you can charge your devices if needed.

WN offers BoB options for food on longer flights, or you can just bring a sandwich. Or you can go six hours without eating, which most adults do between the lunch and dinner hours on a daily basis.

I would happily fly WN to Hawaii if I were going to fly in Y class. WN may not offer the most revolutionary onboard product, but they have friendly staff, they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids.

When you travel with 1, 2, 3 or more kids you cannot so easily solve these problems are you casually comment on. I have 2 kids, both too young to leave alone - the shear amount of planning, effort and (sometimes) stress it takes to fly with them is very high. A 3 hour flight is not just a 3 hour flight, and certainly an all day one stop to Hawaii isn't just a simple connection; its its hours ahead at home dealing with provisions, transport, tantrums - then its terminal with baggage, car seats, checkin lines, **security lines**, unexpected (and unannounced) "potty emergencies". Then its trying to corral restless (and maybe very tired/cranky because of early flight time) kids at the gate. Then its the boarding nightmare (*****especially WN*****) , now we're on board, how many devices/power packs, etc do you suppose I need to try to keep them happy (and not bother other people)? I often don't even have the space and/or carrying capacity to bring enough "stuff".

It isn't about the lack of a single amenity (IFE, power, food) , or whether is "free" or paid - its the aggregate lack thereof.
If I take a good non-LCC flight, I can count on a helpful pre-board, IFE that heavily engages the kids, food that can sustain them and I, or even a premium class that make life even easier (I sometimes do this when traveling with just 1 kid).

I cannot count on having time to feed them or myself in the terminal (originating or connection point!). I cannot count on a kid not discharging a device after its use is called for at home/in transport to airport/in terminal... that can be a long time. When we land, the trip is not even close to over when there's little kids in play.

I see no evidence that WN has any "real" food for purchase on longer flights as you claim, beyond "additional snacks for purchase on longer flights". We all know they don't have traditional catering and certainly not sandwich service, much less ovens. I'm not being elitist, but I cannot feed a hungry child during long haul (maybe all-day) travel on mini-cans of Pringles. Even a banana would be superior.

Hopefully I've illustrated my perspective a little - just to add to it - I travel as a solo adult, no spouse. When I have 2 children with, neither of which can be fully trusted to go to the bathroom themselves (meaning the other may or may not be left alone) , its a challenge, and every little benefit an airline can offer is most appreciated (I too, have to go to the bathroom at times, ya?). WN's bare bones operations is simply less, less, less, less.

I'm no travel wimp. I've hauled my kids TPAC, transcon, Caribbean (w/turboprop hops), Mexico. TATL and HI is around the corner, South America is when, not if. I've done all those things I described as "hard" above, like pack-muling all the gear for kids because of WN/LCC , and its completely doable, with enough planning going out - its coming home that can be much harder as I am departing from a non-home setting with all new challenges. You're in LA, no? You know what a nightmare the car hire places are around LAX at night, with a couple of kids?

For those of you with the attitude: "then don't fly WN, fly something else" - I don't. I don't fly WN with kids (I sometimes do without, though it doesn't impress me). I'm simply pointing out that some people like me will eliminate them from consideration on long Hawaii operations.

For those of you with the attitude: "people flew with kids for decades before IFE, tablets, computers - you're being a baby" - not really. I flew long-haul from birth on DC-8, B707 and such; my parents hauled me around the world; I am aware of what the past was like. While electronic distractions and roller bags(!) did not exist, Airports were smaller, less congested, security was non-existent, attitudes towards kids was more lax, meals served on nearly any and every flight (terminal food operations weren't a massive profit center) ; this made travel with kids a fair bit easier.

WN doesn't need to install power/IFE/cater just to find success in the Hawaii market. But they put themselves at a disadvantage. I fly alot on my own dime, and while I'll acceptably torture myself on EasyJet or Spirit when it works best for me, I won't do so with my kids, and in the end, that does have a lasting impact on my attitude.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:23 pm

I think WN does a nice job on both long and short flights within their current route structure, and I wouldn't imagine Hawaii would present any more challenges than are faced on any other long haul flight they currently operate. Everybody acts like going to Hawaii requires some certain type of elevated service... it doesn't. People that are willing to sit on a Southwest plane from Baltimore to San Diego will sit on a Southwest plane between San Diego and Maui if the price is right. At the end of the day, it's about transportation. Though Alaska offers hot meals for purchase, and Hawaiian gives them away for free - neither of those things are likely a motivating factor in why someone chooses to purchase a ticket. These days, it's almost solely about price for most people. I just wonder if the market is there. Allegiant gave it a whirl and threw the towel in. Admittedly, Allegiant doesn't have the brand recognition that Southwest does, nor do they have the reputation for service that Southwest does, but they are the most profitable airline in the United States - if there was money to be found in Hawaii, they would have been able to find it. I think the market is fairly saturated from the west coast and I wonder how well Southwest will do. They definitely have their loyalists in California, but the Hawaiians are a different group altogether. Many of them aren't familiar with Southwest and they are often skeptical of new companies coming from the mainland. They have taken well to Alaska and I think between Alaska and Hawaiian cultivating a great deal of loyalty from local Hawaiian people, Southwest is going to have to survive primarily on West Coast to Hawaii traffic which has largely been picked over. Time will tell...
 
Judge1310
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:13 am

jplatts wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
SEA and PDX I can't see because of the intense competition from AS and DL.


Southwest is actually bigger at PDX than it is at SEA, and Southwest has nonstop service to SFO, LAX, BUR, and ONT from PDX but not from SEA. Southwest also has 10 additional flights a day out of PDX than it does out of SEA, and Delta Air Lines does not have a hub at PDX. There are also more passengers who travel to and from PDX on Southwest than passengers who travel to and from SEA on Southwest, with 3,455,000 passengers per year to and from PDX on Southwest and with 3,220,000 arriving and deplaning passengers per year to and from SEA on Southwest.

Delta does have nonstop service to HNL, OGG, and KOA from SEA and will be starting nonstop service from SEA to LIH on December 21st. On the other hand, Delta only has 1 seasonal nonstop between PDX and HNL on the holidays from December 21st through January 2nd, but Delta does not serve OGG, KOA, or LIH nonstop from PDX.

While Southwest will face intense competition from Alaska if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from PDX, Southwest would not face intense competition from Delta on PDX to Hawaii nonstop service if it adds PDX to Hawaii nonstop service.



Oh. My. Word.
!!!
:banghead:
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:06 am

FlyHappy wrote:
For those of you with the attitude: "then don't fly WN, fly something else" - I don't. I don't fly WN with kids (I sometimes do without, though it doesn't impress me). I'm simply pointing out that some people like me will eliminate them from consideration on long Hawaii operations.

For those of you with the attitude: "people flew with kids for decades before IFE, tablets, computers - you're being a baby" - not really. I flew long-haul from birth on DC-8, B707 and such; my parents hauled me around the world; I am aware of what the past was like. While electronic distractions and roller bags(!) did not exist, Airports were smaller, less congested, security was non-existent, attitudes towards kids was more lax, meals served on nearly any and every flight (terminal food operations weren't a massive profit center) ; this made travel with kids a fair bit easier.

WN doesn't need to install power/IFE/cater just to find success in the Hawaii market. But they put themselves at a disadvantage. I fly alot on my own dime, and while I'll acceptably torture myself on EasyJet or Spirit when it works best for me, I won't do so with my kids, and in the end, that does have a lasting impact on my attitude.


Can you help me understand how WN is suboptimal for kids? I've taken my kids (now 4 and 7, both flew for the first time at less than a year) all over North America and the Caribbean on WN. Between WN and a legacy on which I have status, it's a close call depending on the legacy and the status. Between WN and a legacy on which I don't have status it's not a close call. WN offers predictability, which is far and away the most important thing for traveling with kids; things that are annoyances for you or me (the window seat with no window, the flight with unexpectedly nonfunctioning IFE) can be big problems for kids. Moreover, WN's employees are uniformly great with kids; on other carriers it is much more hit or miss. With a child young enough for family boarding, the seating configuration you want is all but guaranteed and free. In-seat power would be nice, but other than that it is hard for me to critique the WN experience with kids.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ADrum23
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am

^^^^^^^^

If I can throw my two cents here, my only issues with WN are that they don't codeshare with any other airline (making international travel difficult) and they don't always fly into a city's primary airport (such as Chicago and Dallas, I'd much rather fly into ORD and DFW in those cities respectively, MDW and DAL are not convenient). Other than that, it is no different than flying in Y on any of the legacy carriers.

I'd rather fly WN on a 737 than fly on legacy carrier regional jets. My two main requirements for a flight are I need to fly direct if possible and I need to fly on a mainline flight if possible. Where I live currently (BNA), WN meets both of those requirements to most cities in the continental US. In the case of Chicago or Dallas, I'd rather fly AA into ORD and DFW respectively, but other than that, WN is good for me everywhere else.

I don't understand all the WN hate on this site.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:11 am

Cubsrule wrote:

Can you help me understand how WN is suboptimal for kids? I've taken my kids (now 4 and 7, both flew for the first time at less than a year) all over North America and the Caribbean on WN. Between WN and a legacy on which I have status, it's a close call depending on the legacy and the status. Between WN and a legacy on which I don't have status it's not a close call. WN offers predictability, which is far and away the most important thing for traveling with kids; things that are annoyances for you or me (the window seat with no window, the flight with unexpectedly nonfunctioning IFE) can be big problems for kids. Moreover, WN's employees are uniformly great with kids; on other carriers it is much more hit or miss. With a child young enough for family boarding, the seating configuration you want is all but guaranteed and free. In-seat power would be nice, but other than that it is hard for me to critique the WN experience with kids.


Everyone is different, every kid is different. Perhaps yours (same ages, and also same infant travel, btw) are more tolerant of things mine aren't.
Beyond that obvious statement, I think your home market, and nature of travel has great bearing on this.

I rarely fly segments under 3 hours and WN has no non-stop destinations that interest me; perhaps this is different for you. By not offering IFE, power or kid friendly food, WN presents greater hardships for me than other options typically. Another factor is "bags fly free" - for me, a terrible thing. Simply because when traveling with my kids, I always need to check bags, and so I compete with planeloads of others queuing with their free-to-check steamer trunks; on virtually every other carrier, the bag drop queue is much more direct, saving me great stress as I wrangle kids.

I'm not a WN basher - they just don't work for me for these reasons, when others offer easier experience. I am projecting to the reality that HI operations would be 1 and even possibly 2 stops for me on WN, and this is utterly out of the question with my kids. I answer to the Doc and others who seem to overlook that these lack of amenities might affect a segment of the flying public that they are not apart of. I always have a Plan A, B and C for nearly everything when traveling with kids (to whit: broken IFE - trust me, I have books, puzzles, toys, tablet); its just that WN absolutely eliminates one option with each of their major differentiating policies.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 20614
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:19 am

FlyHappy wrote:
they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids. [/quote]

WN offers EWR-OAK. That's actually a bit longer than OAK-HNL by about 150 miles, and WN offers many other transcon flights that . Families take children on these flights. My parents took me on much longer flights than that in an era when *nobody* had devices. It's only in the last 4-6 years that in-seat power in Y has become standard.

So yeah. Just yeah.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:20 am

ADrum23 wrote:
^^^^^^^^

If I can throw my two cents here, my only issues with WN are that they don't codeshare with any other airline (making international travel difficult) and they don't always fly into a city's primary airport (such as Chicago and Dallas, I'd much rather fly into ORD and DFW in those cities respectively, MDW and DAL are not convenient). Other than that, it is no different than flying in Y on any of the legacy carriers.

I'd rather fly WN on a 737 than fly on legacy carrier regional jets. My two main requirements for a flight are I need to fly direct if possible and I need to fly on a mainline flight if possible. Where I live currently (BNA), WN meets both of those requirements to most cities in the continental US. In the case of Chicago or Dallas, I'd rather fly AA into ORD and DFW respectively, but other than that, WN is good for me everywhere else.

I don't understand all the WN hate on this site.


Hope you don't mean me. Not hate for WN, just doesn't usually work for me, isn't my preference.
You are comparing WN to legacy regional ops - um, sure, in that case, I agree. But thats not what WN is.... since BNA is your home airport, I imagine you are only "well served" (in the mainline context) by WN. For others in bigger/hub cities, I think there is a perceived difference in Y flight (IMO), and you said it yourself: you prefer AA into ORD/DFW !

So...... when people outside of CA WN bases, got to pony up 600, 800, $1400 or more to fly to Hawaii, there's a pretty good reason why lack of even small amenities available on others becomes troublesome.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:27 am

DocLightning wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids.


WN offers EWR-OAK. That's actually a bit longer than OAK-HNL by about 150 miles, and WN offers many other transcon flights that . Families take children on these flights. My parents took me on much longer flights than that in an era when *nobody* had devices. It's only in the last 4-6 years that in-seat power in Y has become standard.

So yeah. Just yeah.[/quote]

I never said everyone had to be like me. Just pointing out that battery packs are not the solution to everything. I don't live in OAK, and so that flight length is meaningless to me. If I go to HI with kids, its likely to involve 1 and maybe even (shudder) 2 stops. Its fine that it works for you, but it does not work for me, shepherding my kids on WN.

Will it work for a family from Pohanka, PA headed to HI on WN? Only they'll be able to answer.

If you read my post in completion, you'll see that I've both experienced prior eras of travel as a child and adult. Its not just about power; its about everything that makes WN different and presumably how they'd continue to be different to HI.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:33 am

FlyHappy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
they take care of their customers when IRROPS happen, and they are honest and open in communications to customers when those irregularities do happen. To me, that's more important than onboard gimmicks.

As for the 737, it's my least favorite narrowbody as a passenger, but the cabin cross-section is the same as the 757 to within 1mm. But it's liveable.


Just No.

See here's the thing - what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Sure, as a single adult, or better yet a pair - its easy to deal with keeping devices powered, being entertained/distracted, finding food. But look around on your next WN flight - who do you see? Families. Kids.


WN offers EWR-OAK. That's actually a bit longer than OAK-HNL by about 150 miles, and WN offers many other transcon flights that . Families take children on these flights. My parents took me on much longer flights than that in an era when *nobody* had devices. It's only in the last 4-6 years that in-seat power in Y has become standard.

So yeah. Just yeah.


I never said everyone had to be like me. Just pointing out that battery packs are not the solution to everything. I don't live in OAK, and so that flight length is meaningless to me. If I go to HI with kids, its likely to involve 1 and maybe even (shudder) 2 stops. Its fine that it works for you, but it does not work for me, shepherding my kids on WN. I have no great problem with non-stop EWR-OAK, with my kids, even on WN... if that's all I'm doing. But this is about HI, and WN's connectivity model. You are in LAX, and so you have great options to those beautiful islands, and soon you'll have another. Enjoy. Not so easy or obvious for some of us not in CA.

Will it work for a family from Pohanka, PA headed to HI on WN? Only they'll be able to answer.

If you read my post in completion, you'll see that I've both experienced prior eras of travel as a child and adult. Its not just about power; its about everything that makes WN different and presumably how they'd continue to be different to HI.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 12622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:33 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Another factor is "bags fly free" - for me, a terrible thing. Simply because when traveling with my kids, I always need to check bags, and so I compete with planeloads of others queuing with their free-to-check steamer trunks; on virtually every other carrier, the bag drop queue is much more direct, saving me great stress as I wrangle kids.


Like you, I almost always check bags with the kids. But since WN rolled out self-tagging, I don’t think I have ever waited to check a bag. With a handful of exceptions (MSY comes immediately to mind), the stations without self checking are small enough that lines are the exception.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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