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Spiderguy252
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"LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:41 pm

Where did this phrase come from? I presume it was used in the early days of the A320 when speculation was rife that then low-cost carriers might opt for the new model.

If that was the case, can we say that Boeing was being complacent with the 737? Did they under-estimate the potential success of the A320 family - to LCCs and otherwise? And when in the 1990s/2000s did the tide start to turn the A320's way, having this phrase become obsolete?
Vahroone
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:53 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Where did this phrase come from? I presume it was used in the early days of the A320 when speculation was rife that then low-cost carriers might opt for the new model.

If that was the case, can we say that Boeing was being complacent with the 737? Did they under-estimate the potential success of the A320 family - to LCCs and otherwise? And when in the 1990s/2000s did the tide start to turn the A320's way, having this phrase become obsolete?


I would argue so. The Airbus A320 came when the only real competition Boeing could offer was the over-engineered Boeing 757 or the much smaller Boeing 737-300. The A320 opened up a lot of new routes and forced Boeing to develop the NG. If not for Ryanair, Boeing might be completely out of the narrow-body market in Europe, and Boeing still can't make its 737s carry ULDs (the 757s can't either, but the A320ceo/neo family can take the LD3-45).
 
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:00 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If not for Ryanair, Boeing might be completely out of the narrow-body market in Europe.


Hmm. Norwegian, KLM and SAS might beg to differ.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Boeing still can't make its 737s carry ULDs (the 757s can't either, but the A320ceo/neo family can take the LD3-45).


Important to some, but not many, and completely irrelevant to many others, who'd rather take the weight savings.
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Polot
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:11 pm

I’m confused by this thread and what exactly its point is?
 
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:15 pm

Polot wrote:
I’m confused by this thread and what exactly its point is?


Refer to Post #2. The post at the top of the thread is suppose to be #2 however there has been a few cases where threads have been started and received a reply and the reply ends up above the thread starter. The problem has been reported but have no idea when it will be fixed
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MrHMSH
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:08 pm

Polot wrote:
I’m confused by this thread and what exactly its point is?


OP wants to know who said the statement in the title.
 
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:19 pm

Boeing did not take the A320 seriously and did not aggressively pursue JetBlue when they were looking for a narrowbody aircraft. Had Boeing been more negotiable with some airlines, the 737- A320 split might have more in Boeing's favor. Never underestimate your competitor.
 
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:41 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Boeing did not take the A320 seriously and did not aggressively pursue JetBlue when they were looking for a narrowbody aircraft. Had Boeing been more negotiable with some airlines, the 737- A320 split might have more in Boeing's favor. Never underestimate your competitor.


Actually, Boeing didn't take JetBlue seriously.
JetBlue's whole business plan was built with the 737-800 as the aircraft they meant to operate.

Boeing blew David Neeleman off, Airbus made him an offer he couldn't refuse - and the rest is history.
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atcsundevil
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Where did this phrase come from?


Boeings boardroom, just before Easyjet and JetBlue placed their orders in the late 90s/early 2000s.

The thread apparently has a glitch, and this post is appearing before the OP. I'll have to remove the post, but I'll leave this post here so that your post will still live on. Sorry for the trouble! I'll let the developers know so that hopefully this can be fixed.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:47 pm

Polot wrote:
I’m confused by this thread and what exactly its point is?


Sounds like the premise for an A vs B thread.

The term LCC came about as airlines started copying Southwest Airlines, who was a 737 operator.
 
Yflyer
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:23 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
OP wants to know who said the statement in the title.


Although I'm skeptical that anyone, or at least anyone at Boeing, actually did say it. It sounds like something someone made up to illustrate Boeing's arrogance at the time, much like that quote attributed to Bill Gates about how "no one will ever need more than 640k of RAM" but there's no evidence that he actually said it.
 
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mariner
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:01 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Boeing blew David Neeleman off, Airbus made him an offer he couldn't refuse - and the rest is history.


It was more than just JetBlue. Frontier was fully determined to replace their Boeings with Boeings, but Boeing wouldn't give them any kind of a deal, they wanted full price all the way down the line. Boeing was so confidant of the deal that they took a full page ad in the Frontier inflight magazine.

But Frontier couldn't afford to pay what Boeing wanted, so - somewhat reluctantly - they went to Airbus, who told them they didn't want to be used as a negotiating tool for Frontier to get a better price from Boeing. Frontier was able to convince them of their genuine interest and they got a deal - a pretty good deal.

Then there was Easyjet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2325679.stm

Easyjet ditches Boeing for Airbus - No-frills airline Easyjet has switched its allegiance from the US plane maker Boeing to Europe's Airbus, with an order for 120 planes.

Somewhere about this point Boeing changed their strategy and gave Ryanair a great deal to keep them in the tent.

mariner
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:01 am

mariner wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
Boeing blew David Neeleman off, Airbus made him an offer he couldn't refuse - and the rest is history.


It was more than just JetBlue. Frontier was fully determined to replace their Boeings with Boeings, but Boeing wouldn't give them any kind of a deal, they wanted full price all the way down the line. Boeing was so confidant of the deal that they took a full page ad in the Frontier inflight magazine.

But Frontier couldn't afford to pay what Boeing wanted, so - somewhat reluctantly - they went to Airbus, who told them they didn't want to be used as a negotiating tool for Frontier to get a better price from Boeing. Frontier was able to convince them of their genuine interest and they got a deal - a pretty good deal.

Then there was Easyjet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2325679.stm

Easyjet ditches Boeing for Airbus - No-frills airline Easyjet has switched its allegiance from the US plane maker Boeing to Europe's Airbus, with an order for 120 planes.

Somewhere about this point Boeing changed their strategy and gave Ryanair a great deal to keep them in the tent.

mariner


It's the same story with AirAsia too - they were operating 734s and switched to A320s by the bucketload.

What happened to the Boeing sales team back then?
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Boeing778X
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:40 am

Obviously a false statement. *Cough, Cough* SPIRIT!
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ikolkyo
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:41 am

You gotta wonder how things would be different if that Boeing team wasn’t so idiotic.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: "LCCs buy the 737...and only the 737"

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:32 am

cheapgreek wrote:
Boeing did not take the A320 seriously and did not aggressively pursue JetBlue when they were looking for a narrowbody aircraft. Had Boeing been more negotiable with some airlines, the 737- A320 split might have more in Boeing's favor. Never underestimate your competitor.


The first order in the Americas was for Pan Am (Pan Am sold that order to Guinness Peat Aviation and Braniff II ended up with some planes). However, how long was it before another significant order came in for Airbus in the USA? (That is, when did Northwest place its A320 order to replace DC-9s and 727s?) That said, I'm surprised that Boeing didn't take the A321 seriously...did the huge US Airways A321 order, which was still being filled when it merged with AA, force Boeing's hand with the B739ER? (The merged American has a 219-strong A321 fleet.)

As for JetBlue, they were leasing brand new planes as their model only later shifted to long-term ownership, where later orders were for owned planes (B6 did return a few planes to lessors early on, but reacquired and ultimately purchased them, and has money set aside to buy remaining leased A320 family planes). Was the A320 lease deal better than the 737-800 lease deal? It just seems as though Boeing has been playing catch-up in the narrow-body market, although it has Airbus beat in the wide-body market. Boeing needs a clean-sheet to replace the 737 to compete with the A320 family and to have a true 757 replacement.

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