http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/10/news/de ... index.html

UA has apparently suspended service to DEL until the air quality improves. CNN was reporting this morning breathing in DEL is the equivalent of smoking 44 cigarettes a day...I think UA made the right choice to not subject their crews to that level of pollution.

United1 wrote:

breathing in DEL is the equivalent of smoking 44 cigarettes a day.

Holy smokes!

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Well visibility is causing delays as well as runway maintenance. Delhi has been limited to a single departure runway causing a number if flights to be cancelled

http://indianexpress.com/article/delhi/ ... i-4926665/

These smog delays are causing problems with duty time restrictions on a number of airlines. UA doesn't have a ton of extra duty time available to deal with smog delays.

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Just because other airlines aren’t doing doesn’t mean going there is the right thing. No one should have to go there, given the conditions.

Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.

flight152 wrote:

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Just because other airlines aren’t doing doesn’t mean going there is the right thing. No one should have to go there, given the conditions.

I agree. I am sure UA Leadership did not come to the decision lightly and understands that a suspension in service opens the door further for competitors on the route, namely the ME3. However, as 152 notes, airline staff should not be subjected to those working conditions. My guess is there were a number of complaints from crew about the conditions in DEL and perhaps staffing was an issue. Every company and country has different rules when it comes to "acceptable" working conditions. As the UA is the only US air carrier flying into DEL a comparison to other airlines is not as simple as you make it sound.

77H

When unions complain about the welfare of their members, it forces the company to do something.

I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.

LAXintl wrote:

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

peterinlisbon wrote:

I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.

You are right if they just drive south away from Delhi (the airport is already to the south), they can probably find a smog free space for the crew. I think its all about flight delays and the already long flight which leaves very little room for crew to time out

The extreme smog is simply not just abou Delhi but entire region, including Pakistan

A public health emergency was declared with schools closed, vehicle restrictions imposed, etc



https://weather.com/news/news/2017-11-0 ... h-concerns

tphuang wrote:

Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.

That would have been upset many people in China, who would have seen it through a nationalistic lens. Even if a similar reaction happens in India - China is far more richer and more important for United than India, where they have far fewer flights going in and out.

UA doesn’t need an excuse to cancel an underperforming route. They just do it. If they say it’s for crew safety then that’s what it’s for.

And the pollution now in DEL is far worse than it gets in Beijing in the winter. Up to 10 times worse.

The pollution in India is WAY WORSE than China. See PM levels:
https://i.imgur.com/HL91PLT.png

mikejepp wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.

NichCage wrote:

I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL

Yeah, but a massive OSHA lawsuit, sure the hell is....

wn676 wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.

Yeah, thats on me. I read it wrong. As they were resuming flights on the 10th. Sorry y'all.

wn676 wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.

Its the crew that flew into DEL on the 9th (departed EWR on the 8th) they are working the flight back to EWR and will arrive EWR tomorrow morning on the 11th.

jumbojet wrote:

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.

Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...

CaliguyNYC wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.

You are right if they just drive south away from Delhi (the airport is already to the south), they can probably find a smog free space for the crew. I think its all about flight delays and the already long flight which leaves very little room for crew to time out

Not really gonna help! I was on the road from Dehli to Agra earlier this week when it was getting really bad and the smog was just terrible the whole way down to Agra. Felt sick after being outside stretching at a service station for maybe 10 minutes.

Also there was a bad wreck on the expressway due to such poor visibility. With all this to be considered, United is making a reasonable decision in my mind (as a United pilot that is). For what it's worth I am also now home with a respiratory infection. I can't help but think my time in the Delhi/Agra area contributed to this.

Wow. Not the worst pollution ever, but bad. A relative of mine was hospitalized in China for the bad pollution. (Normally doesn't have asthma, but enough PM2.5... Asthma.)

I hope this is solved soon.

Lightsaber

Are other flights, especially the AI nonstop flights, also affected by this smog? All AI101/103/127/173 seem scheduled as normal through the weekend.

Also I remember reading somewhere that RW 11/29 (the longest one) has been closed. Could this be a contributing factor as well? All the long-haul flights would then have to take off on RW 10/28, which is considerably shorter. I'm not so sure if UA 83 can take off (presumable at MTOW) from 10/28 for nonstop EWR, but AI seems to be operating DEL-ORD (longer flight plus larger aircraft 77W) without any fuel stops. Note that this route stretches the 77W to the limits, and a long runway would be required for the aircraft to takeoff and make ORD nonstop.

It seems that 10/28 is long enough to handle these ULH flights? Or is it that AI is offloading cargo (as they have in the past) with the ORD/IAD flights to take off under these conditions?

tphuang wrote:

Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.

From The Washington Post:

New Delhi’s air quality consistently ranks among the worst in the world, but the city’s air pollution this week registered 10 times worse than the air in Beijing, which is notorious for its smog. Residents complain of burning eyes and itchy throats, and doctors said chest infections and respiratory illnesses have surged.

All I'll say is, if you ever head to DEL out of choice you're doing something wrong. In years past I've always felt that this is a problem that will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully now it's at that stage where the government actually lays down the law and clean air abounds.

As for United, my hunch is that it coincides with the existing predicament of crews timing out at the slightest hint of a delay on this sector (BOM too), and this would have surely played a part in their decision.

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

So what exactly do you think the problem is?

I cannot understand why this is so hard to believe for people, the air is FAR worse than it has ever been in PEK and the airline has to protect their crews. No one is willing to put their health at risk to take these flights and the airline cannot legally force crews into such a serious health hazard. I would suspect that we will see other airlines from countries where crews have strong unions start to cancel flights or figure out other ways to get their crews out of the area for their layover.

Again the people trying to compare the conditions to those in PEK need to check their facts. The conditions are FAR worse and it is a serious health risk to be there right now.

texdravid wrote:

How embarrassing for Delhi and for Indians.
Here we are in the west talking about the environment and in India does very little about their air and water quality.

India is a nation of terrible infrastructure and hygiene and public standards.

P.S. I’m an Indian American

Completely agreed.

This is the result of a combination of factors. One is the duty time limits and the stage length. When you have smog delays and a single departure runway, you quickly eat into the spare duty time for the crew.

The air quality is worse by orders of magnitude than even Beijing and that is saying something.

As to the comment, "I hope it gets better soon," that simply isn't going to happen. This is an issue which will persist for decades to come and the high pressure dome to the south combined with the Himalayas to the north make this phenomena an annual event anyway.

You can't help but feel for the hundreds of millions of people stuck in that pollution zone.

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Bet you lose most of your bets.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 552452.cms
"Closure of one of the runways at the Delhi airport has already led to the cancellation of 14 flights from Tuesday till Thursday. An airport spokesperson said all Delhi-bound flights of various airlines have been grounded. Already, the Chandigarh airport is operating in lesser strength due to runway repairs, and now Delhi runway repairs has added to the woes. Flights scheduled to land at 7 am to 5 pm have been cancelled. "

jumbojet wrote:

I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.

Fanboys of Delta would make inane posts such as yours.

SFOtoORD wrote:

Why don’t you fill us in on what those issues are given your implied expertise here?

Obviously he has no expertise here, but believes his opinion is all that matters.

TWA772LR wrote:

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Newbiepilot wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?

TWA772LR wrote:

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

It isn't a stupid question. Most commercial jet aircraft are powered by high-bypass turbofan engines, so the fans push most of the air (and the pollutants) into the bypass stream around the compressor. (Typically, the bypass air provides 60% or even more of the engine's thrust.) But after a while, polluted air must have a detrimental affect on the engines.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?

Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels. The problem is the wear and erosion on the turbine blades, fuel nozzles, etc and degradation of seals. That increases engine removals for shop visits. As EGT margin decreases, engine performance drops. So after time pollution will affect an engine, but UAs 777s don't spend much time in that environment so likely aren't strongly impacted.

I think the bigger factor in performance is the poor visibility closing runways.

Newbiepilot wrote:

Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels.

Are you sure that your statement is valid in all cases?
And I do realise we are talking about air pollution here.

My background includes the water industry, and when it comes to pollution of waterways, the main killer (of fish etc) is often NOT the pollution itself, but the drop in oxygen levels caused by the pollution.

Hence "The Thames Bubbler", a vessel dedicated to pumping oxygen into troublesome stretches of the river as it passes through London; a river that though once heavily polluted, is now reasonably ok.

Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels.

Are you sure that your statement is valid in all cases?
And I do realise we are talking about air pollution here.

My background includes the water industry, and when it comes to pollution of waterways, the main killer (of fish etc) is often NOT the pollution itself, but the drop in oxygen levels caused by the pollution.

Hence "The Thames Bubbler", a vessel dedicated to pumping oxygen into troublesome stretches of the river as it passes through London; a river that though once heavily polluted, is now reasonably ok.

Obviously I am talking about air and not water. Oxygen makes up 21% of the atmosphere. Particulate matter in the form of pollution or dust doesn't really change that. Atmospheric pressure (density altitude) has a bigger impact on engine performance.

Flew in an out of DEL 4 times last week and spent a few days in the city, the pollution is horrible and I’ve been to polluted places before - you can almost feel resistance as you walk through it. It’s disgusting and has to be dealt with.

Newbiepilot wrote:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Newbiepilot wrote:

Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?

Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels. The problem is the wear and erosion on the turbine blades, fuel nozzles, etc and degradation of seals. That increases engine removals for shop visits. As EGT margin decreases, engine performance drops. So after time pollution will affect an engine, but UAs 777s don't spend much time in that environment so likely aren't strongly impacted.

I think the bigger factor in performance is the poor visibility closing runways.

That is the correct answer. Particulates wear (erode) the fuel injector, diffuser, turbine inlet vanes, and all the compressor and turbine blades. While an engine is good at centrifuging out sand, PM2.5 tends to go through. You can see a multiplier in takeoff wear, but less than a factor of two per takeoff (unless it is a sand storm).

Lightsaber

Nimish wrote:

Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.

So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Nimish wrote:

Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.

So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.

For those that want to know, It was/is for crew safety and by the way, UA brought the crew that operated the flight into DEL on 11/10 out on the same night, same plane to avoid having them stay there, The forecast is for improvement by tomorrow evening, or so it is said. They are re-positioning a crew back into DEL on tonight's flight and tomorrow's departure will be delayed 20 hours for crew rest of the new crew.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Nimish wrote:

Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.

So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.

It has gotten marginally better in DEL and is expected to continue to improve...its still awful but its no longer maxing out the air quality meters.

United1 wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

NichCage wrote:

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.

Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...

758ppm!!! Any city in the US or Europe would shut down completely if a reading that high occurred there. UA did absolutely the right thing and would've done the same in China or anywhere else.

dampfnudel wrote:

United1 wrote:

jumbojet wrote:

I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.

Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...

758ppm!!! Any city in the US or Europe would shut down completely if a reading that high occurred there. UA did absolutely the right thing and would've done the same in China or anywhere else.

A few months ago there were a few days that api in many Chinese cities exceeded 1000ppm. Most flight operations were cancelled but some flights still operate, and on the other hand I cannot recall any of those airlines talked about these delays publicly

mikejepp wrote:

LAXintl wrote:

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.

So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

Said crew can stay in hotel instead of commuting into/outof DEL. Assuming the hotel is equipped with air cleaning facility it could be better