United1
Topic Author
Posts: 3339
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:52 pm

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/10/news/de ... index.html

UA has apparently suspended service to DEL until the air quality improves. CNN was reporting this morning breathing in DEL is the equivalent of smoking 44 cigarettes a day...I think UA made the right choice to not subject their crews to that level of pollution.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
AASAP777
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:56 pm

United1 wrote:
breathing in DEL is the equivalent of smoking 44 cigarettes a day.



Holy smokes! :flamed:
Bendiga Dios la pródiga tierra en que nací....God bless the prodigal land where I was born.
H O N D U R A S! Five star country...Un país de cinco estrellas.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 22021
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:57 pm

Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
NichCage
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:08 pm

It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:11 pm

NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


Well visibility is causing delays as well as runway maintenance. Delhi has been limited to a single departure runway causing a number if flights to be cancelled

http://indianexpress.com/article/delhi/ ... i-4926665/

These smog delays are causing problems with duty time restrictions on a number of airlines. UA doesn't have a ton of extra duty time available to deal with smog delays.
 
flight152
Posts: 3312
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:19 pm

NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Just because other airlines aren’t doing doesn’t mean going there is the right thing. No one should have to go there, given the conditions.
 
tphuang
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:22 pm

Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.
 
77H
Posts: 676
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:36 pm

flight152 wrote:
NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.

Just because other airlines aren’t doing doesn’t mean going there is the right thing. No one should have to go there, given the conditions.


I agree. I am sure UA Leadership did not come to the decision lightly and understands that a suspension in service opens the door further for competitors on the route, namely the ME3. However, as 152 notes, airline staff should not be subjected to those working conditions. My guess is there were a number of complaints from crew about the conditions in DEL and perhaps staffing was an issue. Every company and country has different rules when it comes to "acceptable" working conditions. As the UA is the only US air carrier flying into DEL a comparison to other airlines is not as simple as you make it sound.

77H
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 22021
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:41 pm

When unions complain about the welfare of their members, it forces the company to do something.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
texdravid
Posts: 1469
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:44 pm

How embarrassing for Delhi and for Indians.
Here we are in the west talking about the environment and in India does very little about their air and water quality.

India is a nation of terrible infrastructure and hygiene and public standards.

P.S. I’m an Indian American
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:56 pm

I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.
 
mikejepp
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:02 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.


So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:03 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.


You are right if they just drive south away from Delhi (the airport is already to the south), they can probably find a smog free space for the crew. I think its all about flight delays and the already long flight which leaves very little room for crew to time out
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 22021
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:11 pm

The extreme smog is simply not just abou Delhi but entire region, including Pakistan

A public health emergency was declared with schools closed, vehicle restrictions imposed, etc

Image

https://weather.com/news/news/2017-11-0 ... h-concerns
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Adipocere
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:17 pm

tphuang wrote:
Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.


That would have been upset many people in China, who would have seen it through a nationalistic lens. Even if a similar reaction happens in India - China is far more richer and more important for United than India, where they have far fewer flights going in and out.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 828
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:27 pm

UA doesn’t need an excuse to cancel an underperforming route. They just do it. If they say it’s for crew safety then that’s what it’s for.

And the pollution now in DEL is far worse than it gets in Beijing in the winter. Up to 10 times worse.
Last edited by B737900ER on Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
x1234
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:31 pm

The pollution in India is WAY WORSE than China. See PM levels:
https://i.imgur.com/HL91PLT.png
 
wn676
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:40 pm

mikejepp wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.


So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.


It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 9481
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:42 pm

NichCage wrote:
I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL

Yeah, but a massive OSHA lawsuit, sure the hell is....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mikejepp
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:44 pm

wn676 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.


So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.


It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.


Yeah, thats on me. I read it wrong. As they were resuming flights on the 10th. Sorry y'all.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:49 pm

NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.
 
CONTACREW
Posts: 891
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:55 pm

wn676 wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.


So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.


It says crewmembers currently in DEL would return home on today’s UA83, which technically would include the crew of yesterday’s UA82 that would have otherwise overnighted. If thats not the case, they could easily fly them back on OALs. Either way, crew safety absolutely does matter; UA would not intentionally strand a crew there after just admitting that it is a public health emergency.


Its the crew that flew into DEL on the 9th (departed EWR on the 8th) they are working the flight back to EWR and will arrive EWR tomorrow morning on the 11th.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
United1
Topic Author
Posts: 3339
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:08 pm

jumbojet wrote:
NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.


Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1496
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I'd imagine it has more to do with the likelihood of severe delays because of low visibility than concerns about the health of it's crew. After all, they could just stay in a hotel outside the city centre where the pollution is less. If anything, they should reduce the per diems because of what they will save on cigarettes.


You are right if they just drive south away from Delhi (the airport is already to the south), they can probably find a smog free space for the crew. I think its all about flight delays and the already long flight which leaves very little room for crew to time out


Not really gonna help! I was on the road from Dehli to Agra earlier this week when it was getting really bad and the smog was just terrible the whole way down to Agra. Felt sick after being outside stretching at a service station for maybe 10 minutes.

Also there was a bad wreck on the expressway due to such poor visibility. With all this to be considered, United is making a reasonable decision in my mind (as a United pilot that is). For what it's worth I am also now home with a respiratory infection. I can't help but think my time in the Delhi/Agra area contributed to this.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13234
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:58 pm

Wow. Not the worst pollution ever, but bad. A relative of mine was hospitalized in China for the bad pollution. (Normally doesn't have asthma, but enough PM2.5... Asthma.)

I hope this is solved soon.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
User avatar
Irehdna
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:07 am

Are other flights, especially the AI nonstop flights, also affected by this smog? All AI101/103/127/173 seem scheduled as normal through the weekend.
 
User avatar
Irehdna
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:41 am

Also I remember reading somewhere that RW 11/29 (the longest one) has been closed. Could this be a contributing factor as well? All the long-haul flights would then have to take off on RW 10/28, which is considerably shorter. I'm not so sure if UA 83 can take off (presumable at MTOW) from 10/28 for nonstop EWR, but AI seems to be operating DEL-ORD (longer flight plus larger aircraft 77W) without any fuel stops. Note that this route stretches the 77W to the limits, and a long runway would be required for the aircraft to takeoff and make ORD nonstop.

It seems that 10/28 is long enough to handle these ULH flights? Or is it that AI is offloading cargo (as they have in the past) with the ORD/IAD flights to take off under these conditions?
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 850
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:46 am

tphuang wrote:
Did this even happen when smog was over Beijing skies for an entire month during winter times? Find this very surprising.

From The Washington Post:
New Delhi’s air quality consistently ranks among the worst in the world, but the city’s air pollution this week registered 10 times worse than the air in Beijing, which is notorious for its smog. Residents complain of burning eyes and itchy throats, and doctors said chest infections and respiratory illnesses have surged.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:52 am

All I'll say is, if you ever head to DEL out of choice you're doing something wrong. In years past I've always felt that this is a problem that will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully now it's at that stage where the government actually lays down the law and clean air abounds.

As for United, my hunch is that it coincides with the existing predicament of crews timing out at the slightest hint of a delay on this sector (BOM too), and this would have surely played a part in their decision.
Vahroone
 
User avatar
ual747den
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:47 am

NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


So what exactly do you think the problem is?

I cannot understand why this is so hard to believe for people, the air is FAR worse than it has ever been in PEK and the airline has to protect their crews. No one is willing to put their health at risk to take these flights and the airline cannot legally force crews into such a serious health hazard. I would suspect that we will see other airlines from countries where crews have strong unions start to cancel flights or figure out other ways to get their crews out of the area for their layover.

Again the people trying to compare the conditions to those in PEK need to check their facts. The conditions are FAR worse and it is a serious health risk to be there right now.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:56 pm

jumbojet wrote:
NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.


Why don’t you fill us in on what those issues are given your implied expertise here?
 
User avatar
AI126
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:03 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:38 pm

texdravid wrote:
How embarrassing for Delhi and for Indians.
Here we are in the west talking about the environment and in India does very little about their air and water quality.

India is a nation of terrible infrastructure and hygiene and public standards.

P.S. I’m an Indian American


Completely agreed.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2066
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:46 pm

This is the result of a combination of factors. One is the duty time limits and the stage length. When you have smog delays and a single departure runway, you quickly eat into the spare duty time for the crew.

The air quality is worse by orders of magnitude than even Beijing and that is saying something.

As to the comment, "I hope it gets better soon," that simply isn't going to happen. This is an issue which will persist for decades to come and the high pressure dome to the south combined with the Himalayas to the north make this phenomena an annual event anyway.

You can't help but feel for the hundreds of millions of people stuck in that pollution zone.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 5292
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:30 am

Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 2971
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:56 am

NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


Bet you lose most of your bets.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 552452.cms
"Closure of one of the runways at the Delhi airport has already led to the cancellation of 14 flights from Tuesday till Thursday. An airport spokesperson said all Delhi-bound flights of various airlines have been grounded. Already, the Chandigarh airport is operating in lesser strength due to runway repairs, and now Delhi runway repairs has added to the woes. Flights scheduled to land at 7 am to 5 pm have been cancelled. "

jumbojet wrote:
I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.


Fanboys of Delta would make inane posts such as yours.

SFOtoORD wrote:
Why don’t you fill us in on what those issues are given your implied expertise here?


Obviously he has no expertise here, but believes his opinion is all that matters.
The gun is a precious Symbol of Freedom
Criminals are the deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence of tyrants who disarm their citizens
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:40 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?


Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:45 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?


Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
gunnerman
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:25 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?

It isn't a stupid question. Most commercial jet aircraft are powered by high-bypass turbofan engines, so the fans push most of the air (and the pollutants) into the bypass stream around the compressor. (Typically, the bypass air provides 60% or even more of the engine's thrust.) But after a while, polluted air must have a detrimental affect on the engines.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:50 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Stupid question, can air pollution hamper engine performance?


Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?


Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels. The problem is the wear and erosion on the turbine blades, fuel nozzles, etc and degradation of seals. That increases engine removals for shop visits. As EGT margin decreases, engine performance drops. So after time pollution will affect an engine, but UAs 777s don't spend much time in that environment so likely aren't strongly impacted.

I think the bigger factor in performance is the poor visibility closing runways.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:49 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels.

Are you sure that your statement is valid in all cases?
And I do realise we are talking about air pollution here.

My background includes the water industry, and when it comes to pollution of waterways, the main killer (of fish etc) is often NOT the pollution itself, but the drop in oxygen levels caused by the pollution.

Hence "The Thames Bubbler", a vessel dedicated to pumping oxygen into troublesome stretches of the river as it passes through London; a river that though once heavily polluted, is now reasonably ok.
Image
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
Nimish
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:50 pm

Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.
Incredible India!
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:37 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels.

Are you sure that your statement is valid in all cases?
And I do realise we are talking about air pollution here.

My background includes the water industry, and when it comes to pollution of waterways, the main killer (of fish etc) is often NOT the pollution itself, but the drop in oxygen levels caused by the pollution.

Hence "The Thames Bubbler", a vessel dedicated to pumping oxygen into troublesome stretches of the river as it passes through London; a river that though once heavily polluted, is now reasonably ok.
Image


Obviously I am talking about air and not water. Oxygen makes up 21% of the atmosphere. Particulate matter in the form of pollution or dust doesn't really change that. Atmospheric pressure (density altitude) has a bigger impact on engine performance.
 
dredgy
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:13 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:50 pm

Flew in an out of DEL 4 times last week and spent a few days in the city, the pollution is horrible and I’ve been to polluted places before - you can almost feel resistance as you walk through it. It’s disgusting and has to be dealt with.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13234
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:05 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

Yes and no. In the short term not really. Engines and most of the airplane are tested to endure sand and dust.

In the long term absolutely the engines will see faster degradation and less time between shop visits fit overhaul.

Sounds reasonable, but will the air quality hamper engine performance? i.e. take-off thrust?

Or, as long as the temperature/air density, and oxygen content are ok, engines will function ok?

Linking to that; has the problem in India reduced the oxygen levels? Or adversely affected the air temperature. Is the smog insulating the ground from the sun's radiation by day, but maintaining warmth overnight?


Pollution does not reduce oxygen levels. The problem is the wear and erosion on the turbine blades, fuel nozzles, etc and degradation of seals. That increases engine removals for shop visits. As EGT margin decreases, engine performance drops. So after time pollution will affect an engine, but UAs 777s don't spend much time in that environment so likely aren't strongly impacted.

I think the bigger factor in performance is the poor visibility closing runways.

That is the correct answer. Particulates wear (erode) the fuel injector, diffuser, turbine inlet vanes, and all the compressor and turbine blades. While an engine is good at centrifuging out sand, PM2.5 tends to go through. You can see a multiplier in takeoff wear, but less than a factor of two per takeoff (unless it is a sand storm).

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:47 pm

Nimish wrote:
Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.


So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.
 
User avatar
Amwest2United
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:53 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Nimish wrote:
Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.


So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.


For those that want to know, It was/is for crew safety and by the way, UA brought the crew that operated the flight into DEL on 11/10 out on the same night, same plane to avoid having them stay there, The forecast is for improvement by tomorrow evening, or so it is said. They are re-positioning a crew back into DEL on tonight's flight and tomorrow's departure will be delayed 20 hours for crew rest of the new crew.
Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
 
United1
Topic Author
Posts: 3339
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:17 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Nimish wrote:
Seems like UA is restarting the route today - Sun., Nov. 12, 2017, and have a fully booked/ sold out flight headed to DEL this evening.


So nothing changed in DEL but they restarted. So clearly it was not crew safety. Must have been operational - UA thinking DEL would have a ton of delays / cancellations. When they didn't, UA restarted. Looking back at the thread's early comments are interesting given US restarting.


It has gotten marginally better in DEL and is expected to continue to improve...its still awful but its no longer maxing out the air quality meters.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:28 pm

United1 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
NichCage wrote:
It seems like no other airline is doing this other than United. I don't think air quality would be a reason to suspend DEL, as I bet no other airline will.


I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.


Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...


758ppm!!! Any city in the US or Europe would shut down completely if a reading that high occurred there. UA did absolutely the right thing and would've done the same in China or anywhere else.
A313 343 B703 722 732 733 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
c933103
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 am

dampfnudel wrote:
United1 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

I agree. Otherwise there would be no flights to China. There are other issues with UA at DEL than the 'air quality'.


Delhi is worse right now than PEK/PVG by quite a far margin...there is a spot in DEL that is registering 758ppm right now. To put that in perspective NYC is 26ppm, PEK is 25ppm (there are places in China that are worse...I saw one monitoring station at 172ppm) and PVG is 61ppm.

The air in DEL is toxic and UA is doing this to protect its crew members from exposure...


758ppm!!! Any city in the US or Europe would shut down completely if a reading that high occurred there. UA did absolutely the right thing and would've done the same in China or anywhere else.

A few months ago there were a few days that api in many Chinese cities exceeded 1000ppm. Most flight operations were cancelled but some flights still operate, and on the other hand I cannot recall any of those airlines talked about these delays publicly
Last edited by c933103 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
c933103
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: UA temp suspends DEL service due to air quality

Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:37 am

mikejepp wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Internal advisory:


We have temporarily suspended service from EWR to DEL (Delhi, India) due to concerns over poor air quality in the region. Travel waivers are in effect for customers traveling to, from or connecting through DEL, and we are monitoring the situation closely as the area remains impacted by this public health emergency.
Suspension of service will begin with the return of Flight 83 from DEL on Friday, Nov. 10, on which crew members currently in DEL will fly home.
We will provide updates as additional information becomes available.


So, they still have a crew in DEL awaiting the next operating flight.

Which means this cancellation has nothing to do with crewmember safety. If normally operating, there would always be 1 crew in DEL (with them swapping out each day). Currently there is apparently 1 crew in DEL. So, nothing has changed.

Said crew can stay in hotel instead of commuting into/outof DEL. Assuming the hotel is equipped with air cleaning facility it could be better

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos