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FoxtrotSierra
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DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:58 pm

There has not been much news about the status of DFW F in recent time. Most agree it will be built at some point (hence the empty skylink track south of D and west of E) but when? Are there any updates on the project? I have heard the groundwork has been laid (literally), but not much else.
 
usairways787
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:08 pm

Last I heard was that it was on hold. No other details were given as to why.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:15 pm

DAL may be a very important consideration here. If that airport ends up no longer being legally restricted to 20 gates...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
AA737-823
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:03 pm

There's a big mess involved with the whole thing.
First of all, American and the airport are at odds. It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.

Then the disaster with terminal C came up--notice how there has been NO TRIP renovation to C.
So at the time, the debate was between "Build F, put AA there, rebuild C, move AA back," and "Build F and demolish C, and figure out what to do with that space later when demand justifies."

SurfandSnow wrote:
DAL may be a very important consideration here. If that airport ends up no longer being legally restricted to 20 gates...


I feel very confident that DAL will have ZERO bearing on the growth at DFW. Both airports have demonstrated that demand for air travel in the metroplex is virtually limitless.
Admittedly, DFW terminal E is underutilized.
But DAL doesn't have much to do with that.
And there's no sign that the 20 gate cap will change in the next ten years, between the agreement's termination date, and the subsequent construction period, not to mention the epic legal battle the NIMBY's will provide.

BUT- let's not turn this into ANOTHER Love Field thread (though jplatts would spaz at the opportunity).
Let's focus on DFW construction! LOL Fingers crossed.
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:45 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
There's a big mess involved with the whole thing.
First of all, American and the airport are at odds. It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.


In theory, if this were to happen, how would DFW go about this without wreaking havoc on AA’s ops? Additionally, who’s paying for this? And if it’s AA, why would DFW be against it? If I was AA, it’s a valid point, because Delta’s operations at ATL/DTW and United’s operations at ORD/DEN are the most efficient in the country precisely because of this design. AA doesn’t have this setup at any of their hubs, and DFW could definitely use it to speed things up.
 
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william
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:59 pm

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
There's a big mess involved with the whole thing.
First of all, American and the airport are at odds. It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.


In theory, if this were to happen, how would DFW go about this without wreaking havoc on AA’s ops? Additionally, who’s paying for this? And if it’s AA, why would DFW be against it? If I was AA, it’s a valid point, because Delta’s operations at ATL/DTW and United’s operations at ORD/DEN are the most efficient in the country precisely because of this design. AA doesn’t have this setup at any of their hubs, and DFW could definitely use it to speed things up.


There was a thread here around Aug. that stated AA was not happy with the four terminal setup which requires more employees to manage than the competition at their hubs. AA would like a IAH or PHX type arrangement where one could build a terminal in the medium of International Parkway with concourses on either side, again like IAH or PHX. Supposedly we were to hear something from AA and DFW regarding the Masterplan going forward by now, but we have not.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:06 pm

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
There's a big mess involved with the whole thing.
First of all, American and the airport are at odds. It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.


In theory, if this were to happen, how would DFW go about this without wreaking havoc on AA’s ops? Additionally, who’s paying for this? And if it’s AA, why would DFW be against it? If I was AA, it’s a valid point, because Delta’s operations at ATL/DTW and United’s operations at ORD/DEN are the most efficient in the country precisely because of this design. AA doesn’t have this setup at any of their hubs, and DFW could definitely use it to speed things up.


Donning my project manager hat, I'd do it this way:

- Build South Terminal Building & Concourse F (West)
- Demo E
- Extend Course F (East) & Rebuild Linear Concourse E
- Demo C
- Build Concourse C (East)

Given that A, B, and D are in relatively good shape, you could probably stop there until the 2030s or 2040s. Eventually when those buildings reach the end of their economical life, you could build a North Terminal where A & B sit today and fill in the remaining linear concourses.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:17 pm

In the 90s there was discussion about building a long linear concourse on the set side of International Parkway, demolishing 2E. Then do something on the eastern side, less ambitious as the west. The cost was astronomical so it was never seriously considered.
 
tcfc424
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:53 am

Oh fun! I like project manager hats!

I would begin construction concurrently on a central terminal building in the median on the south side as well as construction of the East-west aligned concourse where terminal F would have been. As an amendment to the idea presented above, I would build a sweeping connector well above the road way to connect the new CTB to the new E-W concourse as well as terminal D, moving terminal D check in functions to the CTB at the time of completion of the E-W concourse, CTB (phase1) and the connectors. At this Tim, I would demo terminal E and begin building an E-W concourse on the east side of the new CTB again with sweeping overhead connectors. Additionally, I would begin phase 2 of the CTB northward between current concourses D & C with new connectors built to service these from a more central location. Eventually, the initial concourse D connector would be demolished. Perhaps, it would be possible to conduct construction on a new skyline line without affecting the current skyline line by building stations mid-concourse on the E and W E-W aligned concourses, still keeping that connection on the secure side. Massive project, for sure, but I think it could be done with minimal airside disruptions to AA ops, although the landslide ops might be severely impacted at times.
 
jplatts
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:46 am

Even though Southwest Airlines insisted on not serving DFW Airport 11 years ago, Southwest Airlines has since added service to U.S. airports that it previously stayed out of, including SFO, MSP, BOS, LGA, EWR, ATL, DCA, CLT, MEM, and CVG. The only major airports in the contiguous U.S. other than DFW that are not currently served by Southwest Airlines are JFK, ORD, IAH, and MIA.

Southwest would continue to operate out of DAL if it chooses to start service out of DFW. Will Southwest ever choose to operate out of DFW Airport in addition to DAL? Is there enough room at DFW to accommodate at least 70 daily SWA departures out of DFW in the event that SWA decides to serve DFW in addition to DAL?

DFW Airport should leave enough room to accommodate Southwest Airlines at DFW Airport, even if SWA does not currently plan on serving DFW Airport, since there is so much demand for Southwest Airlines flights in the DFW Metroplex and since Southwest has limited room to further expand at DAL.
 
itchief
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:32 am

jplatts wrote:
Even though Southwest Airlines insisted on not serving DFW Airport 11 years ago, Southwest Airlines has since added service to U.S. airports that it previously stayed out of, including SFO, MSP, BOS, LGA, EWR, ATL, DCA, CLT, MEM, and CVG. The only major airports in the contiguous U.S. other than DFW that are not currently served by Southwest Airlines are JFK, ORD, IAH, and MIA.

Southwest would continue to operate out of DAL if it chooses to start service out of DFW. Will Southwest ever choose to operate out of DFW Airport in addition to DAL? Is there enough room at DFW to accommodate at least 70 daily SWA departures out of DFW in the event that SWA decides to serve DFW in addition to DAL?

DFW Airport should leave enough room to accommodate Southwest Airlines at DFW Airport, even if SWA does not currently plan on serving DFW Airport, since there is so much demand for Southwest Airlines flights in the DFW Metroplex and since Southwest has limited room to further expand at DAL.


You need to do a little research on the politics with SWA/DFW/DAL. SWA will never fly out of DFW.
 
itchief
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:41 am

tcfc424 wrote:
Oh fun! I like project manager hats!

I would begin construction concurrently on a central terminal building in the median on the south side as well as construction of the East-west aligned concourse where terminal F would have been. As an amendment to the idea presented above, I would build a sweeping connector well above the road way to connect the new CTB to the new E-W concourse as well as terminal D, moving terminal D check in functions to the CTB at the time of completion of the E-W concourse, CTB (phase1) and the connectors. At this Tim, I would demo terminal E and begin building an E-W concourse on the east side of the new CTB again with sweeping overhead connectors. Additionally, I would begin phase 2 of the CTB northward between current concourses D & C with new connectors built to service these from a more central location. Eventually, the initial concourse D connector would be demolished. Perhaps, it would be possible to conduct construction on a new skyline line without affecting the current skyline line by building stations mid-concourse on the E and W E-W aligned concourses, still keeping that connection on the secure side. Massive project, for sure, but I think it could be done with minimal airside disruptions to AA ops, although the landslide ops might be severely impacted at times.



DFW has about $6 billion in debt from the construction of Terminal D, its Skylink train and the renovation of Terminals A, B and E. I do not see a rebuild of DFW for Mr Parker.
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:00 am

itchief wrote:
tcfc424 wrote:
Oh fun! I like project manager hats!

I would begin construction concurrently on a central terminal building in the median on the south side as well as construction of the East-west aligned concourse where terminal F would have been. As an amendment to the idea presented above, I would build a sweeping connector well above the road way to connect the new CTB to the new E-W concourse as well as terminal D, moving terminal D check in functions to the CTB at the time of completion of the E-W concourse, CTB (phase1) and the connectors. At this Tim, I would demo terminal E and begin building an E-W concourse on the east side of the new CTB again with sweeping overhead connectors. Additionally, I would begin phase 2 of the CTB northward between current concourses D & C with new connectors built to service these from a more central location. Eventually, the initial concourse D connector would be demolished. Perhaps, it would be possible to conduct construction on a new skyline line without affecting the current skyline line by building stations mid-concourse on the E and W E-W aligned concourses, still keeping that connection on the secure side. Massive project, for sure, but I think it could be done with minimal airside disruptions to AA ops, although the landslide ops might be severely impacted at times.



DFW has about $6 billion in debt from the construction of Terminal D, its Skylink train and the renovation of Terminals A, B and E. I do not see a rebuild of DFW for Mr Parker.


Ouch
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 am

AA737-823 wrote:
It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.

Not sure how they're going to do that without totally screwing up the access road that bisects the property and all the utility work associated with that.

What would AA want to do? Re build every terminal to resemble the current terminal D?

It sounds like it would be less expensive to close DFW and reopen DAL and Meacham/Alliance to unrestricted traffic flows. Ft. Worth AND Dallas could each have a QF 789 service instead of 1 A380! :biggrin:

Jokes aside, DFW still has to be one of the most efficient airports in the US. It's big and spread out with still tons of room to grow in a metro area that is a domestic economic powerhouse. Connecting as a passenger is very easy with the Skylink and there are at least 2 taxiways on the North and South side of the terminal complex. Not every airport can be laid out like ATL/DEN or have one mega terminal like DTW.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
AA737-823
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Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:33 am

TWA772LR wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.

Not sure how they're going to do that without totally screwing up the access road that bisects the property and all the utility work associated with that.

What would AA want to do? Re build every terminal to resemble the current terminal D?

It sounds like it would be less expensive to close DFW and reopen DAL and Meacham/Alliance to unrestricted traffic flows. Ft. Worth AND Dallas could each have a QF 789 service instead of 1 A380! :biggrin:

Jokes aside, DFW still has to be one of the most efficient airports in the US. It's big and spread out with still tons of room to grow in a metro area that is a domestic economic powerhouse. Connecting as a passenger is very easy with the Skylink and there are at least 2 taxiways on the North and South side of the terminal complex. Not every airport can be laid out like ATL/DEN or have one mega terminal like DTW.



Don't shoot the messenger- I, too, think it's utter nonsense.
BUT- as far as layout goes, you guys have it all wrong. The concept that was floated around was four, NORTH-SOUTH oriented concourses. Two to the west, and two to the east of Int'l Parkway.

And yes, the amount of work required to do that, so that AA can $ave on ticket counter labor and baggage handling (which, admittedly, is a problem with DFW's current layout) is astronomical.

And with the current terminals all TRIPed out, I find it to be a great airport to fly to and from, and connections are easy and quick with the Sklink.

Time will tell!
 
itchief
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:15 pm

Re: DFW F: State of affairs?

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:58 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
It was discussed here recently that new AA wants DFW to demolish the whole terminal complex, and rebuild in a more efficient design, some sort of mash up of DEN, IAH (future linear IAH, not past hodgepodge IAH), and ATL.

Not sure how they're going to do that without totally screwing up the access road that bisects the property and all the utility work associated with that.

What would AA want to do? Re build every terminal to resemble the current terminal D?

It sounds like it would be less expensive to close DFW and reopen DAL and Meacham/Alliance to unrestricted traffic flows. Ft. Worth AND Dallas could each have a QF 789 service instead of 1 A380! :biggrin:

Jokes aside, DFW still has to be one of the most efficient airports in the US. It's big and spread out with still tons of room to grow in a metro area that is a domestic economic powerhouse. Connecting as a passenger is very easy with the Skylink and there are at least 2 taxiways on the North and South side of the terminal complex. Not every airport can be laid out like ATL/DEN or have one mega terminal like DTW.



Don't shoot the messenger- I, too, think it's utter nonsense.
BUT- as far as layout goes, you guys have it all wrong. The concept that was floated around was four, NORTH-SOUTH oriented concourses. Two to the west, and two to the east of Int'l Parkway.

And yes, the amount of work required to do that, so that AA can $ave on ticket counter labor and baggage handling (which, admittedly, is a problem with DFW's current layout) is astronomical.

And with the current terminals all TRIPed out, I find it to be a great airport to fly to and from, and connections are easy and quick with the Sklink.

Time will tell!



DFW chose its path and they will live with it.

With the Skylink connections are super easy for the layout they have. The Skylink cost was over $900 million but that was a cheaper option from tearing down and rebuilding the terminals. The great thing about it is that it works for the airport and makes moving from/to any terminal/gate a short walk.

Parking is also easy for the OD pax.

DFW has a good layout for the 40 year old design. With the 7 runways and still room to grow it has been a great investment for both the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth.

Even though Doug Parker does not like the layout it works great for the pax. Security and ticketing is spread out over the 5 terminals. No crazy TSA security lines like DEN. Spending Billions to rebuild to save Parker some money on ticketing/bag check agents is foolish.

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